FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  questions, questions... (Marc de Jonge)
  step mash (Mark Garti  mrgarti at xyplex.com)
  signoff homebrew (B7K0000)
  catalog (Mark Garti  mrgarti at xyplex.com)
  Smithwicks (Paul Andrews)
  belgian yeast (Aaron Birenboim)
  Good brew in Cleveland  (holloway)
  what are "volumes" of CO2? (jay marshall 283-5903)
  hop back (Mark Garti  mrgarti at xyplex.com)
  samuel smith (Tony Babinec)
  Source for Pyrex tube, fairly large diameter? (Chris Shenton)
  Beginner kits at Price Club -- inexpensive (Chris Shenton)
  #44 Not-So-Botched Brown Ale (Richard Stueven)
  sprouting hops (John H. Hartman)
  SUSCRRIBE CRAIG A. TANGUAY ("Craig A. Tanguay")
  torrefied malt (Donald P Perley)
  Belgian Delights in Livermore (C.R. Saikley)
  Re: racking off trub, aeration (korz)
  CAMRA INFO (gcw)
  Where to start? (Jeff Swayze)
  Beer Can Collecting (Brewing Chemist Brian Walter)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:46:13 +0100
From: dejonge at geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: questions, questions...

in HBD#1005 Peter Maxwell asks: a lot of questions.
I'll try to answer them to the best of my knowledge (everybody is
hereby invited to flame/correct/supplement/ridicule my erroneous ways)

>1.  How important is it to rack off the sedimented hot and cold break?
>    Miller and Papazian both indicate it's optional but recommended.  Is
>    there a real difference in taste?
Depends on the amount of break material and the time you want to store
your beer. If you used an extract or highly converted malt for a beer
that you'll drink in three weeks, the trub will not have a great effect.
In General: You don't want a decomposing proteine bouquet in your beer,
so racking of the break material is the safest way.

>2.  Is the presence of trub likely to interfere with fermentation and cause
>    it to get stuck?
I'd say on the contrary, yeast may find some nutrients in the trub,
but so will bacteria etc..

>3.  I read that the recommended practice is to pitch the yeast then wait 30
>minutes or longer, then rack off the trub before fermentation starts.  Why
>not simply let the wort settle for a while after it's been cooled and
>then rack into the fermenter?  This means one less step.
I use the second method, sometimes even let the wort settle (in a cold
place ) overnight.  The risk is that you take is contamination, the 
reward is a beer with less chance of chill haze.

>4.  When the yeast is initially pitched, does it go into suspension?  My
>fear is that if I pitch and then rack very soon afterwards I'll be
>leaving some of the yeast behind.
Not sure about the suspension for lager yeast, but top fermenting
yeast is supposed to multiply in suspension. Besides, in favourable
conditions your yeast population will double in an hour, so perhaps
you only increase the lag time a little by loosing some yeast.

>5.  Is there anything wrong in racking after fermentation has commenced?
>Is this too late?
This is what you do from primary to secondary (and from secondary 
to lagering for some beers), never had fermentation stop on those
occasions. But see below for effects of air contact.

>6.  Initial aeration is important for yeast growth.  Is aeration while
>racking off the trub to be avoided?  How long after pitching does
>additional aeration become bad?

This has come up a lot of times. I think net.common.wisdom boils
down to :())
1 No problem with oxygen in cold wort while yeast is 
  reproducing rapidly, the yeast will get at first.
2 Avoid oxygen in hot wort (oxydation) and almost-finished 
  beer (oxydation & contamination)

>Thanks for any help.
not sure if this is any, but: my pleasure


>	Peter
	Marc


(dejonge at geof.ruu.nl)

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:01:28 EST
From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti mrgarti at xyplex.com)
Subject: step mash

i'm planning on doing my first all grain batch
using a step mash.  I will be using either a
large pot on the stove to mash and a Zapap
lauter-tun.  How do transfer the mash to the
lauter tun?  Do you just pour it in?  How
necessary is foundation water?  How do you
know how much sparge water to use or when to
stop sparging?  Thanks.
Mark    mrgarti at xyplex.com

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Date:        Wed, 04 Nov 92 08:17:34 EST
From: B7K0000 <B7K0 at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: signoff homebrew

signoff homebrew

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:56:09 EST
From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti mrgarti at xyplex.com)
Subject: catalog

does anyone have the address or phone number for
American Scientific or a similiar catalog?
Mark    mrgarti at xyplex.com

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Date: 	Wed, 4 Nov 1992 08:50:27 -0500
From: Paul Andrews <PANDREWS at HPB.HWC.CA>
Subject: Smithwicks

hi,
I'm tracking down as much as I can about Smithwicks... (my favourite)..
I assume its English... but I need the name of the Brewer that brews it..
Is it called Smithwicks also?

Paul Andrews, Health and Welfare Canada, Ottawa, Ontario , Canada
pandrews at hpb.hwc.ca 412.4.1.1

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 07:39:08 MST
From: abirenbo%lyra at rigel.CEL.SCG.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: belgian yeast


   I have been hearing a lot of talk about WYEAST belgian,
and annoying banana production.  I was no big fan of belgian
ale until I had Celis beers from austin texas, and some of
the New Belgium brewery products of Ft. Collins, CO.
The commonly available belgain trappists and specials...
namely Deuvel, Chimay Red, and Orval, all leave me cold.
They are just TOO severe.  Celis and New Belgium ales have
a more subdued and mellow spicyness that i would crawl naken on
my hands and knees through shards of broken glass for.

  I recently bought a bottle of Chimay red, and hated it... just
as i remembered.  I cultured the yeast anyway.  WOW... what a success!
I poured about 10 oz sterile wort into the chimay bottle.  In onlky a
little over 24 hours i had noticible airlock movement!  I have plated
out the yeast... but have yet to use it.  I let the bottle culture
finish out... and drank it this morning.  quite nice.  a pleasent
mellow spicyness... much like that of celis of New Belgium.  However,
this was just S.G. 1.020 wort.  A higher gravity may differ.

  This lead me to wonder if the WYEAST product really is a chimay
yeast?  Or is it possible that the yeast used for bottle conditioning
of chimay is NOT their primary yeast...  but a yeast that I may 
PREFER to their primary yeast.  we shall see.  just another data
point.

  BTW:  My chimay culture had NO banana at all.  In fact... it had
very little fruit either.  more of a mellow undefinable spicyness.
somewhere in the annise/fennel/corriander/clove area.

     aaron
     birenb at hac2arpa.hac.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 09:51:23 -0500
From: holloway at ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Good brew in Cleveland 

Greetings. I'm headed for a computer conference in Cleveland and would love
recommendations on where to find good brew in the area. Thanks in advance.

Jan Holloway
Indiana University
University Computing Services
Bloomington, Indiana
holloway at ucs.indiana.edu


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:06:43 CST
From: jay marshall 283-5903 <marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: what are "volumes" of CO2?

After reading some of the postings about kegging in the last few issues, I
went back to some of the postings that I had saved from previous issues and
came across a term that I'm not familiar with - "volumes" of CO2.  Would
someone care to explain what this means and how an HBer measures or 
calculates it?

thanks,

Jay
marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:02:30 EST
From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti mrgarti at xyplex.com)
Subject: hop back

will a Zapap lauter tun function as a hop back?
Will it do it sufficiently to prevent the chiller
from clogging?  What would the procedure be?
Mark

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:28:18 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: samuel smith

Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide provides a good, concise description
of the Samuel Smith process.

Samuel Smith's products have a "Yorkshire" character, imparted by
their fermentation system, choice of yeast, and hopping.  Samuel
Smith ferments in double-deck slate vessels which make for a
circulation of the yeast.  I believe Terry Foster's Pale Ale book
briefly describes this system, and some past HBD has a long posting
on the brewery setup.  Jackson maintains that the character
developed by the yeast in this system produces brews with a very
full texture and roundness.  And, the beers have a great deal of
interwoven hop character.  Try Samuel Smith's Pale Ale or Nut Brown
Ale and see whether you can taste these flavor components in the
beers.  The beers are very artfully done, in my humble opinion!

Does anyone know of an available ale yeast that is NOT highly 
flocculant and has an appropriate fruity/yeasty character?  One
could attempt to keep such a yeast roused by swirling the carboy
from time to time.  Wyeast "Irish" ale yeast might be used to
impart a bit of the buttery, diacetyl character these beers have.
Multiple late hop additions in the last 20 minutes of the boil,
plus some dry-hopping, might impart some hop complexity.

Samuel Smith beers go by different names in the U.S. and Great
Britain:

   Britain's Museum Ale (OG 1.048) is Samuel Smith's Pale Ale;
   Strong Brown (OG 1.048) is Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale;
   Nourishing Strong Stout (OG 1.048) is Samuel Smith's Taddy     
   Porter.

In Britain, Museum Ale is available as a cask-conditioned real ale!
Britain has no counterpart to Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout (1.048)
or Imperial Stout (OG 1.072).  As I understand it, the American
importer, Merchant du Vin, convinced Samuel Smith that there was a
market for these beers and encouraged SS to brew them.

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:03:44 EST
From: css at tron.stx.com (Chris Shenton)
Subject: Source for Pyrex tube, fairly large diameter?

Anyone know of a source for Pyrex -- or some other temperature
resistant, transparent material -- tube? I'm looking for something
that can handle steam (about 212F), and something that can handle air
at about 500F.  Diameters need to be about 2-6" or so.

I've asked at plastics/plexiglass places and they indicate it's not
adequate for the 500F degree range.

Thanks.

- -- Chris Shenton        css at tron.stx.com        Hughes/STX 301-794-5490


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:07:42 EST
From: css at tron.stx.com (Chris Shenton)
Subject: Beginner kits at Price Club -- inexpensive

Last time I was at Price Club, I noticed they had a beer making kit --
and this is on the conservative, behind-the-times, brewpub-poor
Right Coast :-)

Anyway, seemed a good deal for beginners. It had a carboy, rubber cap
with a couple hoses coming out of it (like a BrewCap?), brush(es?), a
high-quality capper, malt extract, and ``brewing sugar''; probably
some other things I've forgotten, too. I think the cost was about $40,
but I can't recall exactly.

- -- Chris Shenton        css at tron.stx.com        Hughes/STX 301-794-5490


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:27:04 PST
From: gak at wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Subject: #44 Not-So-Botched Brown Ale

In HBD# 963, I wrote:

>ObBeer:  I aborted the Botched Brown last night.  :-(The batch made
>with uncrushed grain.)  I'm going to do it right on Saturday...

Well, I did it right on Monday instead.  I replaced #41 Botched Brown
with #44 Not-So-Botched Brown.  To my surprise, it won first place in
the Brown Ale category at Brewmaster's Oktoberfest a couple of weeks
ago!  (I wasn't terribly impressed with the beer, but then, I'm not a
judge... :-)

So here goes...

#44 gak & gerry's Not-So-Botched Brown
(Replacement for #41)

Brewed 9/7/92  OG 1048
Bottled 9/14/92

8# pale
4oz chocolate malt
4oz black patent
8oz 90L crystal
1oz Cluster (60 min)
1oz Cascade (30 min)
0.5oz Cluster (finish)
Wyeast British

Slow sparge, but otherwise OK.  Fermented in plastic.

10/10 Has a tang like an extract beer.  Otherwise, tastes like a dry
      Brown Ale.  Maybe should have skipped the black patent.  A
      lingering (but faint) bitter aftertaste.

gak			Der Herr Buergermeister gibt bekannt, dass ab
gak at wrs.com		Donnerstag Bier gebraut wird und deshalb ab
attmail!gakhaus!gak	Mittwoch nicht mehr in den Bach geschissen
107/H/3&4		werden darf.

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:14:08 PST
From: jhh at allspice.Berkeley.EDU (John H. Hartman)
Subject: sprouting hops


I harvested my hops about 2 months ago and cut off the vines once
they died. This morning I noticed that one of the plants is sprouting
again.  Should I let it do it's thing, or should I cut it back and
force it to wait for spring?  I always figure the plant knows best,
but this time I'm not sure it does. 

John

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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 2:07 pm EST (19:07:29 UT)
From: "Craig A. Tanguay" <TANG5781%FREDONIA.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:      SUSCRRIBE CRAIG A. TANGUAY


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:27:33 EST
From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: torrefied malt


>In HBD 1004, Phillip Seitz mentions "torrefied malt". The French word
>"torrefie" simply means "roasted", and is used for things like coffee,
>nuts, and grains, that are roasted dry and with stirring. I suspect
>therefore that the brewers were merely talking about some kind of
>roasted malt or roasted barley.

I didn't know you could torrefy malt, but the term usually refers to 
grain which has been puffed up like a lot of cold breakfast cerials are.

 -don perley

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:38:44 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Belgian Delights in Livermore




			Belgian Delights in Livermore


Last night I was fortunate enough to participate in a dinner so inspiring,
that I feel compelled to share a description. The event took place at Mrs.
Coffee's Belgian Bistro in Livermore CA, and was prepared by Christian
VanHoutryve, the proprietor. The best description probably begins with 
the menu.


		Petite Casserole of Steamed Mussels 
		with Boquet of Spices & Lemons
		Blind Tasting of Interbrew Hoegaarden & Celis Wit
				------
		St. Arnolds Flemish Leak Soup
		Four Year Old Celis Hoegaarden
				------
		Lambic of Pheasant a la Framboise
		Fresh Raspberry Sauce Lindemanns
		Scallops of Pommes Frites
		Vlezenbeek Farm Vegetables
		Lindemanns Gueuze
				------
		Petite Roulade of Pineapple Crisp
		Chantilly De Chimay
		La Chouffe Belgian Spiced Ale
				------
		Cordials au Chocolat with Belgian Grapes
		Digestive de Rodenbach a la Grenadine
				------
		Tasting of Bourgogne de Flanders

Christian has worked for many years perfecting his food and beer
combinations. Last night he was in top form. The complex interplay 
of the different flavors was a true gastonomical delight, and I wouldn't
hesitate to recommend this place to anyone. Ahhh, "But what of the beers?"
you ask.

The blind tasting was very enlightening. It was my first taste of Celis
Wit, and I was quite impressed, although one would expect nothing less of
the man who single-handedly revived this style. The Interbrew Hoegaarden
was softer and breadier, whereas Celis' beer was crisper and more refreshing.
Both were very aromatic from the coriander and orange peel. We all preferred
the Celis and are anxiously awaiting its appearance in CA, which should
happen in the next week or two.

The next brew was the four year old Hoegaarden, brewed when Celis was still
at the helm of the DeKluis brewery, before the takeover by Interbrew.
Needless to say, a four year old wit is well past its prime, but it held up
surprisingly well. The aromatics were largely diminished, but the beer was
still tasty and refreshing. On a recent visit to SF, Pierre Celis sampled
some of this brew from the same cellar. He too was surprised by its
relatively fresh condition.

We moved on to the Lindemann's gueuze. This is, in my opinion, not truly
representative of the style. I prefer the harder lambiks with more acidity
and Brettanomyces character. In contrast, Lindemann's is overly sweet. It
did however, complement the food well and was enjoyable in its own right.

The LaChouffe was one of the evening's truly outstanding beers, which is
saying alot. It is a specialty brew produced by an upstart brewery that
defies easy catigorization. It's fairly full bodied with a good deal of
residual sweetnesss, balanced by a substantial dosage of herbs and spices.
I read somewhere (Jackson?) that this beer was made with honey and a blend
of six spices. It was a very complex balance of flavors, and hard to single
out any of the spices, although some detected hints of clove and cinnamon.
A shame this one's not available in the US.

I'd had Rodenbach many times before, but never with Grenadine. The
unadulterated beer is quite tart, but the sweetness of the Grenadine
took the edge and added a fruity character. The flavors integrated quite 
well. I'm generally reluctant to add flavorings to beers, but Christain
insisted that this was the proper way to serve Rodenbach _after_ a meal.
I must admit that the resultant mixture was absolutely delcious at the time.

Finally we finished the evening with another specialty brew, Bourgogne de
Flanders. On my recent trip to Belgium, this was one of the few beers that
I drank more than once. Its deep reddish brown color and full spectrum of
flavors make it worthy of the noble title Bourgogne. It has a very present 
fruity flavor although no fruit is used. Even with its big flavor, this
award winning brew remains fairly light in body and is quite refreshing.

Overall it was a delightful evening that we won't soon forget. If you get the
chance to get out to Livermore, Mrs. Coffee's is definitely worth a visit. 
 
CR

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:54 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: racking off trub, aeration

Peter (peterm at hpdtlpm.ctgsc.hp.com) asks:
>1.  How important is it to rack off the sedimented hot and cold break?
>    Miller and Papazian both indicate it's optional but recommended.  Is
>    there a real difference in taste?

I've read that if yeast ferment the trub, it will increase fusel alcohol
(higher, more complex alcohols) production.  In some beers, like Belgian
Strong beers, this is part of the style's flavor.  It has been also
theorized (proven?) that these fusel alcohols are, at least partly,
responsible for hangovers.

>2.  Is the presence of trub likely to interfere with fermentation and cause
>    it to get stuck?

No.  I can't see how it could.

>3.  I read that the recommended practice is to pitch the yeast then wait 30
>    minutes or longer, then rack off the trub before fermentation starts.  Why
>    not simply let the wort settle for a while after it's been cooled and
>    then rack into the fermenter?  This means one less step.

There are a lot of nutrients in the trub that the yeast can use during their
respiration phase (the first phase of their life cycle) and so IDEALLY, you
would like them to feed them some of the trub, then take it away before
they go into the fermentation phase.

>4.  When the yeast is initially pitched, does it go into suspension?  My
>    fear is that if I pitch and then rack very soon afterwards I'll be
>    leaving some of the yeast behind.

Yes.  You'll leave a few hundred thousand behind, but what's that compared to 
a few trillion.

>5.  Is there anything wrong in racking after fermentation has commenced?
>    Is this too late?

No, but you could have trouble keeping a siphon going -- the CO2 that's
being produced can form a bubble in the line and break the siphon.  My
personal opinion is that increasing the height difference between the source
and destination vessels as big as possible will increase the velocity in
the hose and reduce your chances of breaking the siphon.

>6.  Initial aeration is important for yeast growth.  Is aeration while
>    racking off the trub to be avoided?  How long after pitching does
>    additional aeration become bad?

You don't need to avoid aeration until after fermentation has begun and
even then, any excess O2 that gets dissolved will be scrubbed out by
the escaping CO2.  Once fermentation begins to subside, then additional
aeration is bad.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 16:38 EST
From: gcw at granjon.att.com
Subject: CAMRA INFO

I had several request on where to obtain the the 1993 CAMRA Good Beer
Guide, why from CAMRA, of course!  They take Visa and Mastercard orders
and remember to phone during UK office hours (approximately 4am-noon Eastern 
US time). The guide cost about $18 US and for a extra buck or two they
will send it by air.

Their phone number from the US is:

	011+44-727-867201


Also thanks for the responses to my questions: 

To summarize "Free Pubs" in England are pubs which are not owned or 
"tied" by one of the big brewers, so they are free to serve any beer
they wish. 

To my other question - nobody knew why the CAMRA guide list "public
bars" as "drink is cheaper" - is guess I'll find out when I get there. I
don't care what it cost - I demand "real ale". (I wrote this before
Don Scheidt's response in HBD 1005 - thanks, since I'll be with the wife
I'll have to check these places out myself while she is shopping because
she will prefer the nicer places).

Another point is that several people corrected me on the use of the
word "bar" and said it should be "pub" - well the reason I put the
statement in quotes was because it is a quote from the CAMRA guide. 


					Geoff W.

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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 11:24:13 CST
From: mjbtn!raider!theporch.raidernet.com!jswayze at uunet.UU.NET (Jeff Swayze)
Subject: Where to start?

  Two friends and I are ready to dip our feet into the waters of home 
brewing and would like some suggestions on where to buy our startup 
equipment. We saw an ad in a magazine selling a whole startup kit for 
$40, including tank, capper, caps, ingredients, book, etc. (I can't 
remember the outfit's name, but they offer a $5 rebate if you decide to 
return the equipment - that might help figure out who I'm talking about)
  Anyhow, is that a good deal? Should we try someplace locally? (we're in 
Nashville TN) Any suggestinos would be much appreciated.
  I imagine any group-related replies would be welcomed on this list, but 
please send specific responses to my mail address:
       jswayze at theporch.raidernet.com

  -Jeff Swayze-

- --
  jswayze at theporch.raidernet.com (Jeff Swayze)
theporch.raidernet.com  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 00:54:28 -0700
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brewing Chemist Brian Walter)
Subject: Beer Can Collecting

Howdy,
	I have recently aquired a 700+ can beer can collection, and am
looking for a book on the worth of the cans.  I have quite a few multiples,
and want to know what they are worth before going trading!

Thanks,

 -Brian
Brian J Walter            |Science, like nature, must also be tamed|  Relax,
Chemistry Graduate Student|with a view towards its preservation.   |Don't Worry
Colorado State University |Given the same state of integrity, it   |  Have A
walter at lamar.colostate.edu|will surely serve us well. -N. Peart    | Homebrew!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1006, 11/05/92