HOMEBREW Digest #1020 Wed 25 November 1992

Digest #1019 Digest #1021

                Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Re:  Hop growing (Paul Brownlow)
  Novice Brewer (jfunk)
  clearing cider (KLIGERMAN)
  yeast packages, scots brown ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Hops Pellets Straining (Randall Holt)
  Hops for the garden - Sources? (Randall Holt)
  ORVAL ("Daniel F McConnell")
  searching for "Brew-bits" (Rob Bradley)
  What size stock pot? (Tim P McNerney)
  Genie Homebrew Topics (RMCGLEW)
  Re:  Exploding liquid yeast (Jueal, Stacey)
  Hops/Cannabis (Brian Michael Cors)
  Re: Not-so-pale/Pellet Mush (korz)
  Mash transition (Kevin Krueger)
  Anchor's Sumerian Beer Project (Richard Childers)
  DMS and waiting (Ted Manahan)
  Oregon Pub Crawling (Richard Childers)
  Bursting liquid yeast packages (Bill Othon/LinCom)
  Re: candi (Alan Edwards)
  Mailing List (SynCAccT)
  Subscription ("Richard Withers")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 10:17:56 PST From: paul at susitna.Data-IO.COM (Paul Brownlow) Subject: Re: Hop growing Aaron Birenboim writes: > I just got a street lamp installed in front of my house. >I was wondering... could i grow hops up this pole? or do they >need something thinner like a string to twine up? I have seen wild hops growing up power poles in the Yakima Valley. Hops have no problem climbing these poles. I don't have room for power poles in my back yard, so I use string there. :-) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 08:19:10 EST From: jfunk <jfunk at MAIL.CASI.NASA.GOV> Subject: Novice Brewer I am a new brewer and I need as much advice from master brewers as I can get. My question concerns carbouys. Is it better to use plastic or glass? I'm thinking about using a glass one for primary fermentation, then a plastic one for secondary fermentation. Does the plastic effect the taste at all? Do I have to be concerned about the porous nature of plastic absorbing impurities which can then be passed onto the beer? Also, I need to know if there are any reliable suppliers in the Baltimore, Maryland, or northern Maryland areas? Thanks in advance. Jim Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Nov 1992 09:53:41 -0400 (EDT) From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov Subject: clearing cider I have made some apple cider about a month ago and have not seen any clarification taking place. It is in the secondary and I've lowered the temperature to about 40 F., without noticeable clearing. Can anyone suggest methods for clearing the cider aside from filtering? If people have experience with gelatin finings please let me know if it works and how to use them? Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 11:03:40 cdt From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU> Subject: yeast packages, scots brown With regard to Phil Miller's question about Wyeast packages that swell too quickly, I have had the same experience, and I HAVE tossed them in the fridge to slow them down, then removed them and let them come up to room temp again while making the starter. I've also let the starter sit too long before pitching. In each case, my fermentation started off quickly and the results (some of them still pending) seemed o.k. However, I don't consider my palate yet finely-tuned enough to recognize any problems in the finished beer that may be traceable to clumsy handling of the yeast. (Maybe that's a blessing? -- hey, it still beats the hell out of Bud.) I posted a similar question awhile back and one respondent said that one ought to be careful about letting the starter sit too long so that the yeast don't pass out of their reproductive cycle into their fermentation phase, or something like that, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm no biologist, I just cook beer. However, I too would like to cook a scots brown ale and Mark Davis' post about Scots/Porter reminded me that I'm a little confused about the difference between the two. Any help on this point would be appreciated (from an extract point of view). Al, thanks for the help on the single stage/two stage question. I may try single-stage for awhile now that my procedures are fairly consistent and see if I like the results just as well. Anyone care to save me from this heresy? Jonathan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 12:11:52 -0500 From: rxh6 at po.CWRU.Edu (Randall Holt) Subject: Hops Pellets Straining fingerle at NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Fingerle) recounts; >I then used hop pellets in my fourth batch. When I >tried to strain the boiling hop pellets out, all I had was a "mush" >at the bottom of the pot, and this "mush" went right through the >strainer. The best I could improvise was to remove the wort from >the heat and let it settle, then carefully pour the wort out, leaving >most of the mush behind. > >Are these pellets supposed to dissolve in this manner? Do I need >a "finer" strainer? And, more importantly, if I left some hops >behind in the wort, will they "over-hop" my brew? Will they settle >in the muck so that I might leave the excess behind when I rack to >the secondary? Inquiring minds want to know. I get the same reaction with pellets. What I do is take three circular coffee filters (pleated Mr. Coffee style- not conical Melita style) and place them in the strainer so that they overlap just a little, but cover all of the mesh. It does slow the straining process down by tenfold. But when I just leave them in the wort, the brew is both very hoppy and often has little bits of leaf that never settle out. 'Bibo ergo sum' - -- Randall W. Holt rxh6 at cwru.po.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 12:13:08 -0500 From: rxh6 at po.CWRU.Edu (Randall Holt) Subject: Hops for the garden - Sources? Several correspondents have been discussing hops growing methods recently. I am very interested in trying some home grown, but have no idea where to get seeds/starts, etc. Does anyone out there in HBD-land have a commercial source for hops? Or, would anyone who is currently growing the aromatic buds be willing to ship me some (at my expense of course) ? - -- Randall W. Holt rxh6 at cwru.po.edu Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Nov 1992 13:17:42 -0500 From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu> Subject: ORVAL REGARDING ORVAL Al writes in HBD#1017: > The yeast strain I cultured from Orval dregs is VERY slow (3 weeks), whereas some dry yeasts I used in the past would ferment-out in 3 days. I'm interested in the results of your (and others) Orval culturing. The first time that I tried it I got a brew that was VERY Orvalish, no mistaking where the culture came from. In fact, it seemed far stronger than the original. A subsequent brew was split, half was fermented with a more neutral yeast (Coopers ale) and was blended at kegging. This produced a far softer and more true to type Orval clone. Next time I may just use the Orval culture for conditioning, giving the brew plenty of time for the beasties to do their thing. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Am I correct in assuming that Orval uses more than one yeast strain and perhaps the one we purchase as a bottle culture is not the culture used for the main fermentation? DanM Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 13:48:51 -0500 From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley) Subject: searching for "Brew-bits" When I bought my Electrim Brewing Bin (a Bruheat clone) in 1987 I got a sparging bag with the trade name "Brew-bits". It's cylindrical in shape, with an impervious side and a fine mesh bottom and a drawstring with four loops at the open top. It's not as deep as the usual sparging bag as it has to hang above the electric heating element. It's a great sparger and I used it for more than a hundred batches. It is now lost -- I fear it was thrown out with a batch of spent grain. [What's the ASCII pictogram for a sheepish grin?] The standard Bruheat bag all the local shops seem to sell has a mesh side instead of am impervious one. The mesh is finer than on the bottom, but some wort still gets out the side (I think). This is a bod thing. Furthermore, it is not as sturdy and got a tear on only the second use! Does anybody know where a "Brew-bits" sparging bag, or similar, can be purchased? Thanks, Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 10:50:44 PST From: tpm%wdl58 at wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney) Subject: What size stock pot? I plan on starting up all-grain brewing sometime early next year and am planning on picking up a SS stock pot sometime in the very near future. I plan on getting a reasonably high quality pot, so I want to make sure I get one large enough to last me for a while. So my question to you is, what size will I need for all-grain brewing (5 gallon) and what size would be nice to have? I figure minimum size needed to be 6 gallons. Is there any point for getting something larger (I don't forsee brewing in larger quantities anytime in the near future)? What advantages would there be with a 7, 8 or even 10 gallon pot. I am not sure exactly how I plan on mashing (don't know if it will make a difference or not). Anyway, any help is appreciated. - --Tim McNerney - --Loral Western Development Labs - --(408) 473-4748 - --tpm at wdl1.wdl.loral.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 14:07 From: RMCGLEW.BUSSYS at mhssmtp.mdso.vf.ge.com (RMCGLEW) Subject: Genie Homebrew Topics GEnie, a commercial service, has an active Homebrew topic area in its Food and Wine category. Price is $4.95/mo with no local connect charges for non-business hours at up to 2400 baud local. It is not associated with AHA, although some people have asked AHA to lurk and contribute and gotten no response (I suppose they are married to CIS). They also have and archieve copies of the HBD and files such as the Cat's Meow. Ray McGlew "Although my address has GE as part of it we have just been sold to Martin Marietta. Anyone from Martin who would care to E-Mail me with their perspective is welcome!!!!" Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Nov 92 18:47 GMT From: JUEAL.S at AppleLink.Apple.COM (Jueal, Stacey) Subject: Re: Exploding liquid yeast >>Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 22:12:24 -0600<< >>From: dbreiden at dsuvax.dsu.edu<< >>Subject: Liquid yeast<< >>Has anyone ever had a liquid yeast package actually go "pop" and<< >>burst? Anecdotal evidence accepted.<< Seems to me this is unlikely. A smart manufacturer would put in a sufficient amount of yeast nutrient to get the yeast started and puffy, but not burst. -Sweetie PS - Now I'm curious too! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 15:09:48 EST From: Brian Michael Cors <corsbria at student.msu.edu> Subject: Hops/Cannabis A friend of mine has been asking and asking lots of people if this was true, and he asked me to pose the question "to the experts"... Supposedly he has heard that hops are the third/fourth cousin to the cannabis plant. Is there any truth to this?? Thanks.. Bri Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 15:35 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Re: Not-so-pale/Pellet Mush Rob says: >So I now have what I consider to be a very >fine beer, true to pale ale style in every respect but that the >colour is a dark amber (actually, it's kind of an orange colour!). >Suppose I was entering it in a competition (I'm not); what category >would achieve best results? > > NOT-SO-PALE ALE > > 8 lb Munton & Fison 2-row pale malt > 2 oz U. S. Chocolate malt > 1 oz Northern Brewer pellets (60 min. boil) > 1/2 oz Willamette flowers (30 min. boil) > 1/2 oz Herrsbrucker plug (15 min. boil) > 1/2 tsp Irish Moss > 1/2 oz Herrsbrucker plug (add at end of the boil; steep 15 min.) > WYeast 1098 (Whitbread) > Gelatine finings > 1/2 oz Herrsbrucker plug (dry hops, last 5 days in secondary) > > OG 1045 3 days in primary > SG 1016 at racking > FG 1012 11 days in secondary > finings and dry hops added after day 6. > >Infusion mash for 75 minutes at 150-155 F. I don't have my style descriptor sheets here with me at work, but from memory, having never tasted it (hop utilization is unpredictable), I would guess either Classic Pale Ale or Texas Brown Ale. Color is only two points out of 50. I rarely mark-off for color unless it's a brown- colored weizen or an amber imperial stout. ************** Jimmy asks: >the wort. I then used hop pellets in my fourth batch. When I >tried to strain the boiling hop pellets out, all I had was a "mush" >at the bottom of the pot, and this "mush" went right through the >strainer. The best I could improvise was to remove the wort from >the heat and let it settle, then carefully pour the wort out, leaving >most of the mush behind. > >Are these pellets supposed to dissolve in this manner? Yes. >Do I need a "finer" strainer? Yes. >And, more importantly, if I left some hops >behind in the wort, will they "over-hop" my brew? No. >Will they settle >in the muck so that I might leave the excess behind when I rack to >the secondary? Inquiring minds want to know. Yes. Well, hopefully -- the turbulence of fermentation can stir them up, but eventually, they will sink to the bottom. I use a hop bag for my kettle hops. It's made of some synthetic material, and is quite heat resistant. I know that I get a bit lower utilization of the hops because there is less mechanical action of the wort on the hops when they are in the bag, but cleanup could not be any easier. Actually, I just ignore the lower utilization and things work out just fine. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 16:54:28 CST From: krueger at comm.mot.com (Kevin Krueger) Subject: Mash transition I am a first time caller . . er, um, I mean poster, and I think that HBD is excellent. I have been homebrewing for about eight months now and have found an excellent hobby !! In that time, I've been learning and drinking and learning and drinking and have progressed to a point where I am considering going to full mash brewing. I have always done the partial mash route. However, from reading HBD and other books, I am wondering if I am making some mistakes in my current brewing process. I want to be fairly certain that my assumptions and techniques will insure good brew when I make the transition. First of all, I brew in a 5-gallon tub with an airlock. Should I be using one of those water bottles so the krausen can be blown off ?? Is that important ?? Second, all my beer has a distinctive flavor. I am sure that everyones does, but I am not sure my flavor is positive. I am wondering if chlorine in the water is leaving its mark. Should I be filtering my chlorinated city water thru charcoal filters ?? And certainly my biggest question is related to the cost of transitioning to the all mash brewing. I read a lot of articles about special equipment and other items that I do not have. How many new items do I need and where can I find more info. on these setups ?? I am reading Papazian, but he seems to lack equipment details and innovations that help the homebrewer. And the bottom line, if I ignore the fact that I am making a better brew, does all mash beer cost less than partial extract ?? Thanks for any replies. Regards, Kevin Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 14:56:56 PST From: Richard Childers <rchilder at us.oracle.com> Subject: Anchor's Sumerian Beer Project >Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 22:05:42 -0800 >From: "Stephen E. Hansen" <hansen at Sierra.Stanford.EDU> >Subject: Anchor's Sumerian Beer Project, Essay II > Anyone desiring further technical information may write or call us at > the brewery in San Francisco. (415) 863-8350 I called and the lady whom answered the phone was quite pleased to take my address, and promised to mail me a packet including the relevant articles from whence the recipe was derived ... - -- richard ===== - -- richard childers rchilder at us.oracle.com 1 415 506 2411 oracle data center -- unix systems & network administration Klein flask for rent. Inquire within. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 15:05:21 pst From: Ted Manahan <tedm at hpcvcbp.cv.hp.com> Subject: DMS and waiting Full-Name: Ted Manahan Yesterday, Martin Wilde commented: > While at a brewery this past weekend, I was watching a brewer making a batch > of beer and I noticed that after the boil, the flame was turned off and the > wort left to "steep" for about 45 minutes. I first asked the brewer about > the problems of DMS forming since the temperature of the wort had fallen >below 212 degrees. I just got a tour of the Pyramid brewery in Washington state, and they do the same thing. After boiling, they whirlpool the hot wort and let it settle for 45 (?) minutes. I didn't ask about the creation of DMS, but it did cross my mind. Maybe the high hoping rates hide any DMS created? Any other ideas? Ted Manahan tedm at cv.hp.com 503/750-2856 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 15:18:41 PST From: Richard Childers <rchilder at us.oracle.com> Subject: Oregon Pub Crawling I took a week off recently and headed north from San Francisco, up towards Oregon and points north, via various routes, exploring the wilderness and tasting the ales of the great Northwest. It was great. I didn't make it any farther north than Vancouver, Washington, where my dad works, so I didn't make it to any of the Washington breweries - this time - but Oregon satisfied my thirst for gustatory adventures. The high point of the trip was Steelhead Brewery, in Eugene, Oregon, where I enjoyed the freshest fish and chips I've had in decades, along with a few pints of something called Bombay Bomber, their interpretation of India Pale Ale. I don't know a lot about IPA, but this had an intriguing taste, a hint of spiciness that I'll have to try to reproduce. However, don't get me wrong ... the only thing that put Steelhead over the top was the fish. The beer was excellent, but it wasn't any better, in my opinion, than some of the excellent beers I had at the Lighthouse Brewpub, on the coast, in Lincoln, Oregon. Lighthouse is a member of the Mcmenamin (sp?) family of brewpubs, what might be called a 'chain' except that each pub has little in common with the others, excepting only the format of the menu, and a few of the available brews. Each brewery provides its own unique creations to its customers, as well as a few of the established favorites. Some of the beers that come to mind, in connection with Lighthouse, are the excellent Terminator Stout (tm), although I liked Hammerhead Ale much better, and they also served a Crystal Ale that was deep reddish in color and very sweet, as ales go. Allegedly, it was brewed entirely from crystal malt !! It appears to be popular enough that it is available elsewhere, also. At another Mcmenamin pub, in Eugene, I tasted what I think was called 'Blue Heron Ale' ... which name was also in use at Steelhead, confusingly enough. I also tasted a brew flavored with boysenberries, I think they were, which was underflavored, in my opinion, but allowed one to savor the bouquet of the berries in the ale's scent. All in all, a very flavorful evening. In general, I have to recommend the Mcmenamin pubs. My impression was good ... the employees seemed very enthusiastic, more like co-owners than wage slaves. They obviously enjoyed what they were doing, and liked their customers. The whole ambiance of the Lighthouse Brewpub was that of a brewpub taken over by friendly Deadheads ... tie-dyes were prominently splashed across the ceiling, the beat of Bob Marley and the Whalers as background music, the fermentation tanks were painted with floating eyes and other Deadhead imagery, and, all in all, it was a very friendly place. The only reason I describe it in such detail, is because I am confident that, once everyone sees where Lincoln is, they will be unlikely to try to reach it ... and the Lighthouse will continue to be a haven for weary and thirsting travellers, pleasantly uncrowded. In any case, there must be another 20 Mcmenamin pubs in the Portland area, none of which I have ever visited, except for the Blue Moon, a year ago ... so there is no lack of good places to go if you're in Portland, or Oregon. Perhaps Jeff Frane might see fit to contribute his opinion of Mcmenamin's ? I would be interested in knowing how they are seen by resident experts ... - -- richard ===== - -- richard childers rchilder at us.oracle.com 1 415 506 2411 oracle data center -- unix systems & network administration Klein flask for rent. Inquire within. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 17:28 CST From: othon at ial7.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Othon/LinCom) Subject: Bursting liquid yeast packages Regarding dbreiden inquiry, I got a "pop" my first try with liquid yeast. It wasn't a big pop, and produced a small pinhole in the package. Most of the nutrient was crushed, so I transfered the whole thing to a sterilized tupperware dish with a tight lid. I pitched it the next day; no kraeusen. It did start up a couple of days later. Which brings me to my question: After two batches with liquid yeast, I have still not used a starter. I obviously never did before with dry yeast, which seemed to start up effortlessly with warm water and nutrient. I took the instructions on the l.y. package for granted, and pitched straight in. After a day or so, the yeasties would start up, and by day 4 it seemed to be ready for the secondary (these are ale batches). I would like to see if using a starter would improve the beer, so someone post a no-frills, simple, household- items-only starter process please. On another subject: I'm glad to hear about the new Austin brewery! Maybe the Texas "starter" is starting to hit high kraeusen, and we'll be able to do away with those silly anti-brewpub laws. Now that would be something worth being thankful for. If any Texas brewers hear news of the upcoming legisative session and the brewpub laws, please post the info. Thanks -Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 15:52:21 PST From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) Subject: Re: candi Phillip Seitz wrote (in HBD #1017): | Hmm. Have I just been flamed? Not really. | In Thursday's HBD Alan Edwards launched a diatribe concerning the | alleged snobism of people who'd like to use candy sugar in Belgian | style beers. He wondered if there really was any difference between | this and standard sugars such as glucose. Actually, what I said was sucrose. My main point was that it seems to be common in this forum that as time goes by, more and more credibility is heaped upon a statement, until it becomes a "factoid", which then becomes fact, as more people reference it. I do admit, though, that I was quite fed up with other (arf) problems (arf) with the HBD at the (arf) time, and it (excuse me, I seem to have something in my throat) came out in my post. I humbly apologize. I realized that I was a being a jerk when Jack congratulated me on the post. Maybe the "candi sugar" thing was not a good example. But, what I was trying to do was apply logic to the situation. Phillip said that it looked like rock candy. Using that and the assumption that it was named candi sugar because it was used for making candy, or was itself considered candy, I concluded that it was sucrose. Pierre Jelenc wrote (in HBD #1019): | Candy sugar, known in French as "sucre candi", is pure sucrose that | has been made to crystallize slowly into large crystals. The Encyclopedia | Britannica defines it as "very large white sugar crystals, obtained by | slow crystallization from very high purity liquor; it is used mainly | by the brewing industry." Phillip Seitz continues: | While it is not the point I want to make here, he may be right. Having | hauled plenty of this stuff back from Belgium (using valuable space I | usually reserve for chocolate!), I have to say that the value of candy | sugar in comparison with other types is not immediately apparent. While | it does offer some color and melts slowly, it tastes pretty much like | . . . sugar. It seems to me that what's important is what it contributes | to the final fermented product, but I've yet to see or taste any good | side-by-side comparisons (my own experimental plans notwithstanding). Great. I applaud you for conducting experiments to determine what it really does for beer. In your experiments, though, may I suggest that you use sucrose (white table sugar) as your control. If the candi sugar is a little darker, then I would suggest that you try a mixture of white sugar and light brown sugar, to simulate the color and flavor effects. I have a strong suspicion that the original intent of the Belgians who add candi sugar to their wort was just to raise the gravity without adding too much maltyness. | Many contributors to HBD (and myself certainly among them) have a | tendency to pontificate on matters they don't fully understand. I'm guilty! | I totally agree with Al concerning his skepticism, and suspect that | his ideas concerning [sucrose] and candy sugar may be correct. But I | suspect that he, like many of us, is expressing an opinion and does | not have any more solid ground to stand on than the rest of us. Exactly my point. Don't trust me any more than anyone else. Of course, some contributors include their sources, or back up their claims with their own experiences or experiments (like you, Phil), and deserve respect. I just want everyone to use a little care in sifting through the (arf) BS. (excuse me...someone get me a cough drop) -Alan .------------------------------------. I had heard the whispered tales | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov | Of immortality | or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov | The deepest mystery `------------------------------------' From an ancient book, I took a clue Return to table of contents
Date: 25 Nov 92 00:52:15 GMT From: SynCAccT at slims.attmail.com Subject: Mailing List The recent ZYMURGY special issue, in all it's artsy glory has an excellent article by Rodney Morris on his recirculating infusion mash system (RIMS). I've pondered moving from my existing mash system, simply the stovetop pot system, to the cooler method. I've taken an interim step and made a home version of JS's easymash, which works fine for coarse crushes, but tends to stick with finer crushes. The flaw to this system is that you cannot do step infusions. Without generating a conversation on decoction versus infusion, I'll say simply that I would like to do two step mashes, protein rest and conversion. It would be nice to be able to fiddle with conversion temps too without leaning out the mash by adding water. The RIMS looks like just the thing and I'm seriously considering making one. Has anyone on the net made one of these gizmos, anyone care to comment, have an alternate solution, or could suggest a good source for parts, either mail order or in Toronto? Thanks, as usual..... Glenn Anderson email: gande at slims.attmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Nov 92 20:09:01 U From: "Richard Withers" <richard_withers%macmail at conductus.com> Subject: Subscription Subject: Time:9:07 PM OFFICE MEMO Subscription Date:11/24/92 Please add my name to the HOMEBREW Digest distribution list. Thanks - Richard Withers (withers at conductus.com) Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1020, 11/25/92