FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Lager Fermentation Questions ("Michael K. Lebar")
  Peach Beer ("Patrick Paul")
  Making starters (Greg_Habel)
  Barley Wine Recipe Request (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  vienna/fest beer recipe suggestions (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
  peracetic acid/venturi suction (Ed Hitchcock)
  kegging systems ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  Kegs becoming overcarbonated with time (Cisco)
  Rootbeer question--how can I sweeten it up? (Jeffrey Muday)
  Canadian U-Brew's (GANDE)
  Cornelius keg source? ("John L. Isenhour")
  Secondary Fermentation (Domenick Venezia)
  Briess Malt & Sparging Q's (Scott James.)
  Nitrogen/CO2 mix (Cisco)
  Brewcaps  (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
  Air versus beer temperatures (korz)
  blowout tube (mbarre)
  BACK OFF JACK (Dave Smucker)
  Trub, trueb (Ari Jarmala)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 08:56:22 EDT
From: "Michael K. Lebar" <lebar at ctron.ctron.com>
Subject: Lager Fermentation Questions


I'm currently brewing a lager that has an OG of 1.055.  I pitched Wyeast
#2112 Calofornia liquid lager yeast without making a starter so fermentation
took about 3 days to get going.  The carboy is in a temperature controlled 
frig at 51 degress F.  The brew has been fermenting at a moderate rate for
11 days.  This is my first experience with a lager and I was hoping that 
the members of the HBD could answer a couple of questions.  Is 11 days too
long (I'm used to ales finishing in 5 to 7 days), if not, what is normal?
When should I rack to the secondary and begin lagering?

Thanks in Advance,
kl  


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 93 09:40:28 EST
From: "Patrick Paul" <paulp at cc.ims.disa.mil>
Subject: Peach Beer


    Over the upcoming weekend I am planing to try and make a peach beer.

    My current design is to make a wheat ale using premier wheat extract (I
    have not make the leap to all grain yet, but soon).  After the initial
    ferment dies down (two to three days in this weather), I will pit, skin
    and dice or puree about twelve pounds of peaches,  freeze the resultant
    pulp overnight, defrost it the next day and then pitch it into the
    carboy with some pectinase.  then bottle with about a cup of malt
    extract when it calms down again.

    My questions are:

    1)  Any advice on hopping rates and types?
    2)  Should I rack it before I add the pulp?
    3)  Should I add the pectinase with the pulp or wait a day or two?
    4)  Is twelve pounds too much for a five gallon batch?
        (all the fruit beers that I have seen call for a lot of fruit)
    5)  Any thought on a good yeast for this?
    6)  Lambic brewers bake the hops first, would this help here?
    7)  I have seen no reference to a peach beer before, does everyone else
    know something that I don't?

    Thanks in advance for your help.

    Patrick S. Paul

    ***********************************************************************
    *            support  People  Eating  Tasty  Animals                  *
    ***********************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 09:39:06 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Making starters

Message:
When pouring a small starter into a larger container with more 
unfermented wort, should only the yeast from the bottom be 
transferred or the entire contents from the first starter?  
Thanks much.  Keep brewin.   Greg.



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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 11:02:52 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Barley Wine Recipe Request

Well, here's the first place barleywine recipe from the Michigan State
Fair competition.  It was brewed by Dave West, whose barleywine
philosophy is "Use enough ingredients for 7 cases, but only make 2".
It was a blond-gold color, with assertive hopping and a fairly dry
(for a barleywine) finish.  I think I gave it a 43 in the judging.

for 10 gallons

30# Briess 2-row
5# crystal
5# munich
mash all grains 60 min at 160F

90+min boil
4 oz Chinook (11%) 60+min
4 oz Kent Goldings (5.2%) 20 min
4 oz "    " 2 min
4 oz "    " dry hop

Wyeast 3036

O.G. 1.095
F.G. unknown

3 wks at 65F in glass
3 months at 34F in stainless

force carbonated

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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 10:04:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
Subject: vienna/fest beer recipe suggestions

In a recent HBD, someone raised a question on the use of 
Belgian malts in the making of an Ocktoberfest beer.  Here 
are some alternate grain bills.  

The aim is to produce a beer of starting gravity around 1055, 
and as your mileage may vary, you should adjust accordingly.  
The color should be around 10 - 12 Lovibond.  For whatever 
reason, many homebrewers and brewpubs make a fairly dark 
amber Oktoberfest.  Keep in mind that Bass Ale at 10L is a 
good color reference.
  
The following grain bill features Cara-Vienne:

9 pounds pilsner malt
1 pound cara-vienne (20L)
2 ounces Special B 

Cara-vienne is a superb crystal malt, so the above grain bill 
tries to feature it.  The Special B is in there for some added 
coloring, and if you don't have any, then substitute a dark 
crystal malt (120L).  

George and Laurie Fix present a grain bill along the 
following lines:

9 pounds pilsner malt
6 ounces german light crystal malt (10L)
6 ounces german dark crystal malt (60L)
6 ounces (German or British) crystal malt (120L)

At the time they wrote their book, they felt that good quality 
pilsner and crystal malt were more readily available than was 
good quality Munich malt.  Their recipes were tested in 
competition.

Dewolf-Cosyns has a good Munich malt, so why not feature it 
in a grain bill:

5 pounds pilsner malt
4 pounds munich malt
1 pound U.S. cara-pils
1/4 pound crystal malt 40L

I haven't tried an all-Munich recipe, but if I did, I'd use a 
good quality Munich.  Also, 10 pounds of Munich would 
produce a too-dark beer by the above guidelines, so if you're 
concerned about the style parameters, consider a blend of 
Munich and pale malt.

For hops, use Hallertauer, Tettnang, Saaz, and Styrian 
Goldings separately or together.  Aim for bitterness of 22 - 25 
IBUs, or roughly 5 - 6 HBUs. 

For yeast, use a good liquid lager yeast, and ferment at lager 
fermentation temperatures, say 48 - 50 degrees.  If you don't 
have a lager fermentation setup, consider using Wyeast 
"European" ale yeast as it will produce a malt-accented clean-
tasting ale if used at conventional ale fermentation 
temperatures. 

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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 12:36:24 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: peracetic acid/venturi suction

I know the peracetic acid thing was flogged to death (or at least ill 
health) a few months back.  At the time I paid little attention, due to the 
price of H2O2.  However, I can now get my grubby paws on the stuff cheap.  
The Lablaws/Superstore/President's Choice line now sells the stuff as a 
more environmental bleach alternative.  It comes in 1 gallon jugs and sells 
for about the same price as bleach.  I can get white vinegar cheap in large 
volumes at Price Club.  So, my question is, can one make an effective 
sterilizing agent by simply mixing the two?  And how does this stuff react 
with kegs?  I am concerned about using iodophores since my wife is allergic 
to iodine, and I would like something a little less cumbersome than boiling 
water to sanitize my kegs.

	On  a completely separate note, I finally found a venturi suction 
doo-hicky (well, I mean I bought one and didn't have to glom one from the 
lab).  I've got it on a quick connect along with my chiller and bottle 
washer.  The thing is great!  I run the hose from it to a two-hole bung, 
the other hole holds a racking cane.  By creating a partial vacuum in the 
carboy I can siphon into it without pre-filling the siphon hose, or without 
sucking on it.  I can even transfer beer up hill!  No more lifting heavy 
carboys up and down off the counter!  And the best part, the gadget cost me 
all of a whopping $4.50 Canadian!  I picked it up at Gordon's Cave a Vin in 
Montreal, for those remotely interested.

____________   
Ed Hitchcock/Dept of Anatomy & Neurobiology/Dalhousie University/Halifax NS
ech at ac.dal.ca   +-----------------------------------------+
		|   Never trust a statement that begins:  |
		|     "I'm not racist, but..."		  |
		+-----------------------------------------+
	Diversity in all things.  Especially beer.

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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 11:06:37 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: kegging systems

 I am tired of bottles and I've only been homebrewing for 6 months.
 I am interested in purchasing a kegging system but don't know
 the first step to putting one together.  My local brewing supply
 store has a new system, but it is prohibitively expensive.  Any
 suggestions as to what types of equipment I should invest in?
 Are various systems user friendly enough to allow interchange
 of components (ie ball-lock, pin-lock)?  How does one use a
 kegging system to simplify the bottling  process for sediment
 free beer?
JEFF M. MICHALSKI


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 09:29:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Cisco <FRANCISCO at osmo.ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: Kegs becoming overcarbonated with time

I have posted a few articles on calculating dispensing pressure with
different diameter/length tubing. If you drink 5 gallons of homebrew
within 2 weeks everything works fine. However, if you only drink a
pint of beer a day, like I do, your beer will eventually become
overcarbonated because the nice cold temperature at which you dispense
the beer also allows the beer to absorb more CO2 over time. My kegs, I
have two on tap all the time, sit for 4 to 6 weeks and could absorb
quite a bit of CO2. No amount of adjusting CO2 pressure will correct
this to pour properly. You could disconnect the CO2 and bleed off
some of it from the kegs and dispense but it's a real pain bleeding
off dissolved CO2 - it takes time and patience.

The solution to this problem is to get your CO2 cylinder filled with
Nitrogen/CO2 (30% / 70%) mixture. This is available at any fire
equipment store that fills tanks. By running this mixture your beer
will absorb CO2 alot slower. The only drawback is that Nitrogen is
a very light gas and if you have any possible leaks it will escape,
so check all your fittings with some soapy water when they're under
pressure. This gas mixture is used alot for dispensing beer by
most bars that have many different types of beers on tap.

Hope this is helpfull!!
May your beer give you great head!!
John
Francisco at lan.ccit.arizona.edu

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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 12:13:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeffrey Muday <mudayja at ac.wfunet.wfu.edu>
Subject: Rootbeer question--how can I sweeten it up?


I brewed my grandfather's rootbeer recipe, which uses a small amount of
yeast to impart bottle conditioning.  I added too much yeast and needless
to say started working and continued to ferment going on 3 weeks.  Originally,
the recipe called for imediate bottling, but I was afraid that I would be
making beer grenades.  So, now I'm stuck with a 4-5% alcohol dry rootbeer.
 This rootbeer doesn't have too bad a flavor, but I would like to impart
the expected sweetness of traditional root beer.  Is there any way I can add
more sugar without creating beer grenades? Are there any un-fermentable
sugars that I can safely add?

thanks for your help,
jeff (mudayja at ac.wfunet.wfu.edu)




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Date: 1 Sep 93 15:31:25 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Canadian U-Brew's

In HBD1215, Mark Hart asks about anyone's experience with the
Canadian U-brew's. While I have never brewed beer for myself at one
of these places, I have tried the beer and would rate it as "American
Ale". That is, low hop and malt flavor and aroma and well carbonated.
Typical commercial brew, but then again that's what 90% of the
population drink anyway.

I've brewed for almost 6 years now, all grain, I culture yeast and
grow hops, brew once a week, so I considered myself "experienced".
What a cool idea it would be to get a job at one of these U-brew
places and spread the word about "quality" beer, I thought.  One day
at lunch I ventured over to the U-brew, 2 minutes from my office,
started talking to the proprietor and he hired me on the spot.  I am
now the evening and weekend brewmaster.  They pay me to help people
make beer.  Can it get any better?  (I feel like Tom Hanks in the
movie "Big" where he gets the job at the toy store evaluating
products)

The shop has 8 70 Liter gas fired copper kettles, glycol plate
chillers, 6 counterpressure bottlers, warm and cool fermenting rooms,
filtering rooms, etc, state of the art stuff. All brews are extract
based, with some recipies calling for grain steeps. We do wine too,
and I'm hoping to introduce Mead.

These U-brew places are popular, as the article Mark quoted states,
it's a good "guys night out", no one gets sloshed and drives and
everyone takes beer home. Every night is a brew-party and we quite
often make 300-400 liters of beer.

The U-brew setup is an entire system, start to end, sold by a
Canadian company (no advertising here), if anyone would like more
information, please email the address below and I would be glad to
supply it to you.
 ...GA
+----------------------------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com|
| Glenn Anderson                   |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |
| Sun Life of Canada               |
+----------------------------------+

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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 13:02:58 CST
From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov>
Subject: Cornelius keg source?

I read in (tuesdays?) HBD a post from someone who found a good source for
cornelius kegs.  I saved the digest and also snipped that post into a seperate
file, planning on ordering.  This morning I came in to find a dead disk!  The
last image backup that made it does not have this info.  Could someone please
send me the sources?

tnx!
john

- --                                         
John L. Isenhour                          internet: isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov 
Library Systems, et al      NASA/NSF/ES/HEP decnet: lambic::isenhour       
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory       bitnet: isenhour at fnlib      
                                              home: john at hopduvel.chi.il.us
"When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt" - Henry Kaiser


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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Secondary Fermentation

I've had 4.5 gallons of beer in the secondary (glass) for 7 days
with 2 oz of hop pellets and 2 tbsp Polyclar in hot water.

Although fermentation had ceased (no bubbles in >= 5min) in the 
primary, the secondary began producing bubbles almost immediately
at the rate of 4/min (after 7 days 2/min).  I've heard Polyclar
liberates dissolved CO2 (is this true?), so is what I am seeing just
that?  

Some of the hops are floating, some laying on the bottom, but there
is a recycling going on, where hops are sinking from the top and rising
from the bottom continuously.  We're not talking churning here, but an
obvious low level of activity. 

Also the beer does not seem to be clearing appreciably.  Usually by this
time there has been a clarity gradient in the carboy, clearest at top
fading to cloudier at the bottom.  Has something gone horribly wrong?  Or
I am just "worriedly pacing the waiting room"?

I had planned on a 7 day dry hop, but I expected clear beer too.  How
long shoud I wait for clarity, and how long can I dry hop? 


Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 12:58:45 MDT
From: scojam at scojam.Auto-trol.COM (Scott James.)
Subject: Briess Malt & Sparging Q's


Howdy brewers,

I have some questions about Briess malts:

1) Does the 2-row or 6-row need a protein rest?  I'm told the 6-row doesn't.
   when I bought the 6-row the guy told me it's highly modified.

2) Is the 6-row also known as Klages? is the 2-row?
   I've had different homebrew shop owners tell me "it's pale malt" or
   "it's klages"...I'm confused.
   
3) Is one of these considered lager malt?

4) Does "pale malt" imply malt to be used in pale ales or the Lovibond of
   the malt in question?

About Sparging:

1) My last beer used 2-row pale malt (above) and had a chill haze when I
   never had it with the 6-row malt beers.  Things I'm considering changing:

   * When heating and recirculating first runnings, don't heat first runnings.
     the first runnings have starch and husk particles (doesn't run clear).
     Currently, I've been heating _all_ runnings.  I typically heat 3 batches
     of 2 gallong runnings.  I've been getting 1.031/lb/gal from the 6-row.

   * acidify sparge water (1/2 tsp. acid blend to get pH=5.2)  sometimes
     I acidify the water, but many times forget. (like in the cloudy beer)

   * sparge water should be 165F, and not 170F or 180F like in the past.
     (but I usually never got the tannins, just very present malt character.)

   * maybe I should use finings (bentonite/polyclar)... I never had to
     in the past and hate to make things more complicated now.


Thanks for any ideas/opinions,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Scott James				scojam at Auto-Trol.COM
Ham (N0LHX) -:- Guitarist               Auto-Trol Technology
HomeBrewer : Private Pilot (ASEL)	Denver, Colorado USA


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 12:32:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Cisco <FRANCISCO at osmo.ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: Nitrogen/CO2 mix

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the Nitrogen/CO2 mixture
is known as a "Beer Mix" at most refill shops. So try asking for the
Beer Mix and see if they understand.

John
Francisco at lan.ccit.arizona.edu

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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 17:40:54 EDT
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler <swisler at c0431.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Brewcaps 

I'd like to thank John Janowiak and Nate Clark for their response
to brewcap questions.  I had a miserable bottling experience last friday 
evening and was looking to change my process.  After reading both
postings (I've been behind reading the HBD), and pondering all though lunch, 
I think this is for me.  
>From what I now gather, the brewcap is a `system' and is different from
a carboy cap.  I have an orange carboy cap which has 2 `stems', one for 
3/8" and the other for 1/4" (?), and fits snugly over the carboy head.  
I currently use it for starting siphons by inserting my racking tube in 
the 3/8" stem and pressurizing the other.  It would appear easy to
engineer the rest of the system from what I have read here.  I did
notice the use of inverted brewcaps in the Tumbleweed report but was too
busy at work to think or ask intelligent questions.

Now for a few questions:
I like the idea of primary, secondary, and bottling all in one
container.  It really cuts down on the possibility of oxygen contact in
the various steps.  (the fact that it appears to be less work doesn't
hurt either)  How well does it really work?  I have noticed that trub
and spend yeast pile up on the sides of the carboy (electrostatic
attraction?)  Can you actually drain off (almost) all the trub and spent
yeast and get really clean bottling?

How, exactly, do you dry hop without un-inverting it?

Sucking the priming sugar water in is a neat trick.  (I thought of using
a 1/16" tubing run up through the blowoff tube to do this. of course
you'd have to plug the main blowoff tube to get it to work) How well
does the priming sugar mix into the beer?  Any special techniques for
mixing them together?  Do you suck the unprimed beer ( that you drain to
suck up the primer) back into the carboy?

Do you use an airlock with this technique?  Would someone describe the
setup.  I suppose you could just put the blowoff cane in a bucket of water.

The stuck blowoff issue bothers me because I really don't want a glass
bomb going off in my basement.  Maybe Kinney Baughman at Tumbleweed
could pass on his experience?  I have never had a plugged blowoff tube
because I use a 1 1/4" vinyl tube press fit into the mouth of the carboy 
ala Papazian.  The only thing I can think of is to use 3/8" SS tubing
instead of a 3/8" OD, 1/4" ID racking cane to give the blowoff tube more
internal area. 

One additional advantage: Easy, no oxidation risk monitoring of final
gravity. 


Thanks


Scott Wisler              (by the grace of God, still at)
                           GE Aircraft Engines
                           Cincinnati, OH
                           
Monday, 30% of the engineers were laid off (again).  

Question for the day: If we continue to do this (and it shows no signs
of stopping), how long until only one person is left to turn out the lights?



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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 17:20 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Air versus beer temperatures

Jack writes:
> After doing a little judicious temp measuring, I learned that the air 
> temperature varies from 5 to 10 degrees above the actual beer temp.  To 
> determine your own delta, put a thermometer in a glass containing a pint or 
> more of water and watch it for a few days.

There's another factor in the temperature of fermenting beer versus the
ambient (air) temperature around the fermenter and that is that fermentation
is exothermic, meaning that it generates heat.  I think that this may have
been something I did not take into consideration when I brewed a very high
gravity Chimay-clone -- I think the ferment just got too hot.  Anyway, the
point that I wanted to make with this post is that if you have information
about microbrewery X fermenting beer Y at temperature Z, it's probably the
actual beer temperature they are quoting.  On the other hand, if it's a
homebrewer's recipe that says fermented 10 days at T degrees, then it's
probably the ambient temperature and NOT the actual temperature of the
fermenting beer.

So where does this lead us?  Well, perhaps we should make it a point to
specify what temperature we are measureing when we post a recipe, no?

i.e.:

OG 1078
FG 1013
Glass primary, 10 days  at  50F ambient
Glass 2ndary,  30 days  at  50F ambient
Glass 2ndary,  30 days  at  34F ambient

Another factor is wooden kitchen closet floor or cement basement floor!

Then again, having written this, I assume that perhaps the temperatures
listed in some batch lagering operations may actually be the ambient
temperatures, but jacketed fermenters are most certainly reporting the
fermenting beer temperature.

I seem to have posted more issues than answers, no?

Comments?

Al.

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Date: 01 Sep 93 17:33:54 -0700
From: mbarre at nomvs.lsumc.edu
Subject: blowout tube

- --Interpart.Boundary.19930901173357810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; x-DC370=header

Document name: MEMO 08/31/1993 18:19:17.599
      Subject: blowout tube
       Author: Barre, Michael
        Class: MEMO
Document type: MESSAGE
 Attached msg:




- --Interpart.Boundary.19930901173357810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; x-DC370=body

Someone asked a week or two ago whether or not they needed to use a
blowoff tube on the primary.  Mr. Papazian on TNCJOHB p. 136 says
using a blowoff tube will result in beer with less "bite".  On p. 69
says that if you use pelletized hops and a blowoff tube, you must
filter out the hops with a stainless weave strainer.  And, I
remember reading that a blowout tube was suggested with pelletized
hops, but can't find it in the book now.

- --Interpart.Boundary.19930901173357810


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 21:08:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dave Smucker <TWF99 at ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject: BACK OFF JACK

RE: Jack's BLAST on FAQ yeast
 
While it would have been nicer to post the FAQ on yeast over 2 
or 3 days and maybe during mid week when the HBD has been 
running light lets not lose sight of the fact that this yeast 
information has been some of the best data posted to the 
digest.  It was a lot of work to compile this information and 
it is very useful to many of us.  This data on yeast, IMHO, 
made better use of this forum that your misinformation on 
wort aeration.  You don't own this forum, none of us do, and it 
is hopefully for the reasonable use of and by all of us.  Brew 
more Blast less.
 
Dave Smucker,  Brewing Beer,  Not making Jelly!!

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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 93 02:25:00 +0300
From: ari.jarmala at mpoli.fi (Ari Jarmala)
Subject: Trub, trueb


Ulick Stafford <ulick at beethoven.helios.nd.edu> comments on the
pronunciation of trub:

HO>is still doubt as Websters gave two spellings, trub and trueb as
HO>the German speelling for the word meaning dirt or haze or whatever.
HO>These would be pronounced approximately troop and trip.

Here, as usually, we see (hear?) the anglosaxons ignoring the
German umlauts. The word should actually read trub _with umlauted u_
(u with two dots above it). It can be translitterated with English
alphabet as trueb. The vovel ue in this case is also long.

The correct pronounciation is impossible for an english speaking
person, because in English there is no such vovel as ue. Ue is a
front vovel and it resembles e, but e is a back vovel. Start the
training...




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1217, 09/02/93