FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:oxidation while racking (Jim Busch)
  Brass in the Boil (andrewb6)
  Liquid Yeast: Friend or Fiend? (jmp)
  Whitbread dry yeast availability. (lyons)
  GABF winners PostScript (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Carboy transport/storage (gorman)
  Last Year's Hops (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  re:Hard Cider Recipes (Mike Christy TEST SOFTWARE AUTOMATION x8466)
  Poly Hose (npyle)
  Spruce Beer (btalk)
  re: Gravity Calculations (Mike Fertsch)
  GABF (George J Fix)
  priming / banana esters (Ed Hitchcock)
  Re: O.G. Formula (Bill Szymczak)
  RE:Oxidtn/Shandy/Rasberry&Peach/Spruce/Legalities! (COYOTE)
  Beer Drinks (John DeCarlo                             )
  Re: Making drinks with Beeer? (Paul Jasper)
  HB law questions ("DEV::SJK")
  Woodruff Ale (Michael Froehlich)
  Beer Drinks (Allan Janus)
  beer sour (Russell Gelinas)
  Re: hot priming (Mark_Davis.osbu_south)
   ("Andrew B. Deliyannides")
  Re:  hot priming (Troy Howard)
  Wyeast 2278 / when where? (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Brewpub Review ("Mark S. Nelson")
  rock bock/sam adams (tm) radio spots/mixed beer drinks (Kevin Schutz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:43:32 -0500 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re:oxidation while racking

> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 14:17:09 -0700
> From: arne thormodsen <arnet at kaibutsu.cup.hp.com>
> Subject: Oxidation and Filtering
> 
> OK, I'll be the heretic.  Hey, new brewers!  DON'T worry about oxidation
> when transferring to secondary.  The beer is cool and saturated
> (probably supersaturated) with CO2.  If it foams a little when you
> transfer it there is virtually no way it will oxidize, because CO2 is
> coming out.  If it doesn't foam when you transfer it it was probably in
> primary too long and you migh as well bottle it.  I can't see any harm
> in what is described here.  Filering hot wort is one thing, filtering
> cool fermenting beer is something entirely different.
> 
> Relax, have a homebrew, and shove that nasty ol' oxidation bogeyman back
> in the closet where it (usually) belongs.
> 
> - --arne
> 
Wow, supersaturated beer out of the primary??  How do you accomplish this,
with a pressure tank, and bunging with 3+ Palto of residual extract?  Wont
this cause the carboy to explode :-)  Seriously, fermented beer when young
will have around 1 atmosphere of CO2 in solution.  While this will rise
out of solution as the beer is racked, the original posters experience 
with a filter is certainly going to introduce some degree of oxidation. 
A small degree of splashing into the secondary is OK, putting it through
a filter/funnel is sure disaster.  Its just not worth it, or necessary.

Jim Busch


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 09:49:01 EDT
From: andrewb6 at aol.com
Subject: Brass in the Boil

Ooops,  I forgot to add this to my last post.

Are there any negative effects from using brass fittings in boiling wort? 
I'm 
thinking in particular of a brass Swagelok (sp?) bulkhead fitting.  (Thanks
Joel for the bulkhead tip)

Also, is it safe to assume that a ball valve attached directly to the kettl
e 
would be effectively sanitized by heat conducted from the kettle.  I'm
thinking 
of using an immersion chiller, so hopefully all I have to do to avoid
worrying 
(heaven forbid) about infection is to  attach a sanitized hose to the end of 
the ball valve and drain merrily into the fermenter.

Any comments?

Thanks in advance.  

******************************************************************************
* Andrew Baird       *    A good pilot is one who's made the same number of  
*
* AndrewB6 at aol.com   *    landings as take-offs!                             
*

******************************************************************************


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:06:36 -0500
From: jmp at shoe.wustl.edu
Subject: Liquid Yeast: Friend or Fiend?

Greetings,

Long time listener, first time caller.  I'm afraid that this will have to do
with deep philosphical questions, and therefore I may later regret having
brought it up at all.  But here goes...

I usually ferment my wort with dry yeast, usually with good and reliable 
results.  Periodically, I will use WYeast, particularly when I intend to make 
several consecutive batches of similar beers, as reusing the yeast slurry 
becomes economical.  Such was the case over the weekend.  I was to make a basic 
pale ale on Saturday morning.  I had gotten a WYeast American Ale packet, and
burst the inner packet on Thursday evening.  Sure enough, by noon on Saturday
it was nice and puffy.  My 1043 wort was at 70F, and all was well with the
world.  So, I sanitize the yeast package in bleach water, rinse it off, 
cut it open, drop liquid into the wort, cap it and swirl it up.  I then
wait for fermentation to begin, but lo! nothing happens and keeps on not
happening until Monday morning.

So far, a dull story.  But the reason for the post is that this the third time
in four instances of liquid yeast use that this happened to me.  The questions
I have are:

Why does this happen?  Up until the instant that I introduce the yeast to the
wort, it behaves as advertised.  After pitching, it appears to literally die.
I will note that all of the worts that have been victim to this behavior have
been revived with dry yeast, and all were completely acceptable, at least to me.

Why does liquid yeast seem so my less robust than dry?  This is the thing
that I wonder most, since as noted above all of my liquid yeast failings
have had dry yeast added and gone on to ferment properly.  Also, I have never
had a wort not ferment after I pitched dry yeast.

Should this happen when I use the liquid yeast _as_directed_on_the_package?
It's not as if I'm just dumping yeast straight from the fridge to the wort.
I know the perceived wisdom hereabouts is to make a starter of some sort,
but WYeast's package says that I should be able to do what I did and get
fermentation.

Should I just admit abject failure and use dry yeasts exclusively?  By 
extension, will I make a beer with "666" tatooed on its forehead if I reuse 
the slurry from a batch fermented with dry yeast?

Any suggestion is appreciated.

Jerome Peirick
jmp at shoe.wustl.edu




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 10:17:50 EDT
From: lyons%adc3 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Whitbread dry yeast availability.

I have not been able to purchase Whitbread dry ale yeast from
my local distributers for some time.  Is anyone aware of a supply
problem with Whitbread?

Chris Lyons

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 10:39:02 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: GABF winners PostScript

I spent a while with Word and made a tabular version of the GABF
results.  Then I printed it into a PostScript file.  I have placed it
into the pub/incoming directory at sierra.stanford.edu; it probably
won't migrate to the right place (pub/homebrew/docs) until late this
week, as the archiver said he will be out of town.

=Spencer

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 10:36:32 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Carboy transport/storage

I've got a friend who took an old wooden swivel office chair with a
wicker/cane seat that was broken and took out all the wicker in the seat.

An inverted carboy fits right through the seat, the back and arms cradle the
carboy, and the casters on the legs allow convenient rolling around.

I'm still looking for one of my own.

Bill Gorman

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 10:01:36 -0500
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: Last Year's Hops

Glen Anderson asks:

>Would anyone know what percent of Alpha Acid has been lost in the
>1992 crop, assuming they were stored under optimum conditions? I just
>purchased about a pound and would like to adjust my recipes.

If I understand things right, essentially zero.  No adjustments should be 
necessary.  Mark Garetz (our local Hop Expert) may wish to comment.

	t


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 07:53:05 -0700
From: mchristy%spc.dnet at gpo.nsc.com (Mike Christy TEST SOFTWARE AUTOMATION x8466)
Subject: re:Hard Cider Recipes


Since there have been a few inquiries about hard cider lately, here are some 
cider making ideas from the northeast:

A friend of mine usually puts up a couple of 55 gallon wooden kegs each 
fall with 40 lbs of brown sugar in each. I believe the sugar is dissolved 
in a pan of warm cider then added to the keg. A rubber bung/ air lock is 
inserted and he waits for spring. The slower it works off, the better. A temp 
of 55 to 40 is ideal.

Other traditional recipes use pears or raisins, or both. Basically you can add
anything which will give the wild apple yeasties more to eat and impart a
flavor to the cider. You may opt to not add anything, which will render a very
dry cider.

My method involves using green 1 gal wine/vinegar jugs. With these small 1 gal
amounts you can experiment and not worry about ruining a whole batch. They also
work off quicker than larger batches. Check with local restaurants about saving
you some. Sterilize, use a rubber stopper/air lock and keep out of sunlight.

My favorite recipe uses 1 gal of cider with 1 rounded cup of brown sugar. Place
in cool basement and wait 8-12 weeks. We've also used canned tropical fruit, 
molasses, raisins, white sugar, corn sugar, DME, frozen cranberry juice... 
experiment!

Cider can be bottled in champagne bottles, Grolsh style bottles or plain beer
bottles. If you bottle early, you can get a sparkling cider. We've used cork
and regular bottle caps successfully. Dont disturb the sediment when siphoning.

Then there's always the possibility of making apple-jack, which is freezing 
hard cider. The water solidifies around a core of alcohol, very potent indeed.

One last note to those who may not know, its important to purchase cider 
without any preservatives (pot sorb), or better yet go to a cider mill. They 
will usually charge less if you have you own container, and even less if you 
bring you own apples. Our local mill is cira 1905 and makes fine cider.

good luck,  and watch out for those cida-ffects - mike


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 9:08:14 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Poly Hose

I just bought a thick-wall polyethylene hose to run from my lauter tun to my
boiler.  The hose I use now is a thin-wall vinyl hose which has a tendency to
collapse when the hot liquor is flowing through it.  Any experience with this
PE hose?  It is quite stiff, compared to the vinyl, translucent (similar to
the vinyl after coming in contact with boiling wort), and has almost a waxy
feel to it.  Also, it is rated for a fair amount of pressure, but says nothing
about temperature.  Use it or lose it?

Thanks,
Norm

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 11:31:06 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: Spruce Beer

John Pavao asked about Spruce Beer-
I followed Papazian's recipe using 1 oz Spruce essence.
This quickly became known as Pinesol Ale. It was AWFUL. Way too much Spruce,
you couldn't taste anything else. This is the only homebrew that mostly went
down the drain ...after I got as many people to try it as would dare.
Take it easy on the spruce. I would try maybe 1/3  to 1/2 oz essence in 5 gal
batch. good luck. Let me know how it comes out.                Bob Talkiewicz

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 11:19:36 EDT
From: mferts at taec.com (Mike Fertsch)
Subject: re: Gravity Calculations

jclayton at TACOM-EMH1.Army.Mil (CLAYTON Joseph A Jr) asks about gravity
equations:

>As an avid user of equations and a terrible deriver of equations, I'd
>like to be able to solve for any one of the three factors, quantity of
>malt extract, volume of water, and O.G.

My equation is OG = 1 + #pounds of stuff / #gallons of wort * .042 for
dry extract, and

	OG = 1 + #pounds of stuff / #gallons of wort * .036

for liquid extract.

The 0.42 and the 0.36 is the "extraction rate" of dry and liquid
extracts.

This works backwards to get:  (OG-1)/.042 * #gallons = pounds of DME
needed

For more complicated recipes, we can add the result of several
factors:

OG = 1 +(#pounds of material "a" * extraction rate of material "a" +
	 #pounds of material "b" * extraction rate of material "b" +
	 #pounds of material "c" * extraction rate of material "c" +
	 ...) / # of gallons

Thus, a recipe with 3.3# of syrup, 3# of dry extract, and 1# of corn
sugar gives

OG = 1 + (3.3*.036 + 3.0*.042 + 1.0*.044)/5 = 1.058

>By the way, is there any NET consensus on the result of one pound of
>DME and LME in a gallon of water?  I've seen a range of 1.035 to 1.045
>for DMS and a range of 1.032 to 1.040 for LME.  What's up?

I use 0.42 for DME, 0.36 for syrups, .044 for sugar.  Mashed grains
work the same way except the extraction rates are lower (.028-.031).  I
rarely use DMS in my beer, and when I do, I keep them in the parts per
million range.  This does not effect wort gravity significantly! :-)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mike Fertsch

Work:  617-224-7298  mferts at taec.com       Toshiba, Wakefield MA
Home:  617-932-0567  mikef at hopfen.rsi.com  Home, Woburn MA


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 11:04:57 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: GABF

Norm writes in HBD#1248:

>Chris asks whether the GABF equates to the AHA nationals for the pros.  I don't
>know that much about the AHA, but I think the GABF is open to all professional
>brewers, regardless of affiliations.  Many brewers there are Institute for
>Brewing Studies members, but not anywhere near all of them.  This thing has
>gotten so big, though that it is difficult to get any idea of what's available.

This is absolutely correct. The only exceptions are breweries which misuse
competition results in ad campaigns. Norm touched on this point in HBD#1249,
and I am in complete agreement with him. 


>I would like to see several regional ABF's and have the GABF an invitation-only
>affair.  The invites would go to the regional winners in each category.  That
>way the regionals would be of a more reasonable size and so would the GABF
>(used as a national run-off competition).  I went to the Saturday afternoon
>tasting and back again Saturday night, and I don't think I made a dent in the
>total number of beers there (nor would I try).  Does anyone else think this
>thing is a leviathan?  Dr. Fix, I believe you had one of the judging jobs,
>which should give you some insight into the organization.  Is my idea feasible,
>possible, or a pipe dream?

This is an excellent point. Both Laurie and I were on the professional panel,
and it was our view that there were too many beers per judge, and not enough
categories. In particular, there were over 900 beers entered which were
evaluated by ~40 judges in a 48 hour period. The panel itself had a good
mix of large industrial brewers, microbrewers, consultants, and misc. academic
types. Many of the major brewing countries were represented including the UK,
Germany, and Scandinavia, to cite but three examples. Nevertheless, the work
load was higher than desirable. Of the 900 or so beers entered, only ~150-200
were in serious contention for awards. This is why Norm's point is of great
relevance. Had there been local screening a la AHA nationals, then a better
and more complete evaluation could have been done at Denver. I felt 
particularly frustrated by the time constraints, and the effect it had on
the quality of feedback the brewers will be getting from the score sheets.
I usually like to write a couple of paragraphs, particularly with problem
beers. Unfortunately, at the GABF time permitted only "one liners", something
I see as highly unsatisfactory.

To implement Norm's ideas one would need cooperation at the local level. This,
however, IMHO is exactly what the MBAA and the various small brewers 
associations should be doing.

I was also uneasy about the number of categories. In particular, there were
no categories for Belgian styles. This forced Pierre Celis to enter both
his white beer (which won) and Grand Cru in the same category, in spite of
the fact that these two beers are dramatically different. In fact, the
category in question, i.e., spices, vegetables, et al, seems to me to be
ill defined, and as a result needs to be reorganized.

Both Laurie and I were upset about the merger of the Vienna and the Festbier
categories. There were ~ 40 enties, 6 of which were world class (three of each 
of each type). The Viennas had OGs in the high 40s, while The Fest versions 
were all in the high 60s. I have found that when one is evaluating beer based
on 1 oz. samples, there is a skew toward high gravity versions. This is indeed
what happened, for the gold and silver metals went to Festbiers. At the private 
AHA tasting we rounded up as many homebrewers as we could find and tasted
the six beers in question, this time with 8 oz. samples. There was general
agreement that the two versions were sufficiently different to warrant
separate categories, and that each of the 6 samples was worthy of an award.
BTW the Viennas won the Gallo test in this informal evaluation, i.e., they
were the beers which the evaluators drank the most of. This is not to say
the Viennas were superior, but rather it underscores the importance in
(amateur or commercial) competitions of not forcing judges to evaluate apples
and oranges in the same category.

These comments are not to reflect negatively on the awards that were actually
given. The silver went to the Festbier that Pittsburgh brewed for Jim Koch.
Those who have read Laurie and my book on this style will know it has been
a long favorite of ours, and this version was a good sample. The gold went
to one of the best Festbiers I have ever tasted. Still we felt terrible about
the 4th place entry (a Vienna brewed in Georgia) for it too was world class,
yet it did not get an award.

George Fix

P.S. The judging was blind, and the entries were known to the judges by
numbers. Brewers on the panel did not evaluate categories where they had
entries. After the awards were announced, members of the panel were permitted
to match up the numbers with breweries, to see how various operations came
out. There were several samples where I though I knew who brewed beer being
evaluated, and even considered disqualifying myself from their evaluation.
It turned out that I was right some of the time, but not in all cases. The
biggest shock came from the American Light category, where some small 
operations blew versions from AB, Coors, and Miller out of the water. I judged
this category, and at the end would have sworn that the winners were all
from large industrial brewers. What a pleasant surprise! 




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:32:27 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: priming / banana esters

Bart Thielges writes:

>When I prime my fermented beer with corn sugar, I usually cool the priming
>solution to 70F with an ice bath before mixing with the beer.
>(Egads !  I've just publically admitted to both priming and use of cornsugar.
>There goes my chances of CamRA membership !)

	I understand many british cask conditioned ales are primed with 
sugar.  You can relax, your CamRA membership is safe.  I mean, Britain is 
not bound by the Reinheitsgebot, remember...

>I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary since the
>thermal mass of 1 pint of 200F sugar water is nothing compared with 5
>gallons  at  70F.  So what if I zap a few yeast cells on the initial contact ?
>They don't have very good lawyers anyway.
>
>I've never had the guts to actually risk a batch with this hot combination
>experiment.  Has anyone else done this successfully ?  I'd like to

	The only reason I cooled my boiled priming solution was I didn't 
want to dump boiling liquid into my carboy (I add the priming solution 
first then rack the beer into it).  Priming in a keg, however, I have no 
qualms about dumping the hot priming solution staright into the keg (after 
flushing it with CO2 first...)

			***********

David Atkins writes:

>Well, off my soap box and into the kitchen...Banana esters.  I have a brown ale
>with slight banana esters (used Yeast Labs British Ale).  Are these esters a
>regular characteritic of the yeast, a result fermentation at 69-73 F ambient, 
>or both?

	A hint of banana creeping in under the hop nose is an acceptable 
part of british ale.  The isoamyl acetate (banana ester) can be strong if 
the temperature is too high (73^F should be OK, but don't let it get 
higher), if there is insufficient oxygen in the wort, and if the yeast is 
underpitched.  So, aerate that cool wort, pitch lots of yeast, and a whiff 
of banana (should not come through in the flavour) is acceptable, some 
might say desirable, from a british ale.

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| "I'm not from outer space.  I'm from
Anatomy & Neurobiology		|  Iowa.  I just work in outer space."
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|   		- James T. Kirk
	[Eschew racism.  Drink beer from all nations]

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 13:06:47 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Re: O.G. Formula

Joe writes:

>I would like to second Jonathan Knight's request (HBD 1247) for a way 
>to calculate the O.G. with malt extracts.  As an avid user of 
>equations and a terrible deriver of equations, I'd like to be able to
>solve for any one of the three factors, quantity of malt extract,
>volume of water, and O.G.

I've used the formula

                  [#DME + 0.8#LME + 0.7#GRAINS]*0.042
 O.G. = 1.000 +  ----------------------------------
		          gallons

where # means pounds.  This formula uses 1.042 for a pound of
DME (dry malt extract) in a gallon of water, about 1.034 for 
LME (liquid male extract), and about 1.029 for speciality
grains.  

>By the way, is there any NET consensus on the result of one pound of
>DME and LME in a gallon of water?  I've seen a range of 1.035 to 1.045
>for DMS and a range of 1.032 to 1.040 for LME.  What's up?

I'm not sure where I've seen the 1.042 figure (probably Charlie
P.'s book) and maybe a Zymurgy issue.  The 0.8 factor represents
an approximate average, and you'll find a variation probably
between 0.75 and 0.85 depending on the manufacturer of the LME.
The 0.7 factor is dependent on the grains, their crush, and your
sparging (straining) technique.
On the other hand, I've compared the above formula to measured
O.G. values for over a dozen extract batches and have had an
average error of about 1 point (0.1%), and a maximum of 4
points, on O.G.'s ranging from 1.026 to 1.057.

Bill Szymczak

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:16:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: RE:Oxidtn/Shandy/Rasberry&Peach/Spruce/Legalities!


I think we all like to encourage the continuation of the art.  Bad first
attempts have put off more than one newbrewer!  No harm in taking the 
trouble to drop a hose to the bottom of a secondary (or stuff one into 
the "out" end of a funnel) so we aren't SPLASHING brew from the top
of a carboy.  Fermented beer is a reactive shlew of chemicals. Alcohol
being one of them!  Not to mention that the yeast are quite comfortable
in a relatively aerobic environment.  
    I would vote the claim that oxidation can and will happen upon 
sloppy transfers- it IS worth taking efforts to avoid it. Buy a longer
hose if needed! The stuff's cheap.  Cheap beer ain't...well...it is...but
Some IS GOING TO HAPPEN- in almost ANY system, but just keep it down
to a managable amount.  Unless you like chewing cardboard!!!    :), 
****
 -blazo  talks about how...

In London, England they mix bitter orange soda with beer and call the
resultant beverage "Shandy".  In some parts of England this is called "Orange
Shandy" and other soda beverages, Cherry, for instance, mixed with beer would
be called "Cherry Shandy".

*I was familiar with "shandy" being made with bitter lemon soda. A 
similar mix can be made with 7-up or the like.  (the brittish soda has
less sugar than our sodas).  You could have flavor variants, but a 
lemon or lemon/lime was the basic.

It is almost shameful to admit it but (shudder) Orange Shandy tastes pretty
darn good as a "lawnmower style" malt beverage.  I know that this probably
offends the sensitivities of most of this audience, but, refuse to judge
until you've tried it.  Mix equal parts Schweppes Bitter Orange with Double
Diamond and see what I mean!

* It is a common afternoon drink,  served frequently to kids (it is half
as strong as a beer!).  Squatters brewpub in Salt Lake serves one. It's
ok.  Good for the yuppies at luncheon business meetings!  I've made 'em.
Even with my own homebrew.  I had to do something with that 5 gallons
of slice I had in the keg I purchased!  Too  sugary though!!!!
Lemon or Lime in a light beer makes a nice summer ferment.  But now's not
the time.  Dark lager season is on the way!
***
Norm says he:

(copied without permission, so sue me.  No wait, how about 30 lashes
with a siphon hose?):

    Tsk,  Tsk,   Tsk.
    What length of tubing?  With or w/o bottling cane attached?
    Do I hear a call for copper tubing?
***
Subject: Raspberry or Peach beer...

I would like to try using raspberry or peach to flavor my next
batch of beer, but I don't know what quantities to use.
How should I vary the hopping levels when using these fruit adjuncts?
Has anybody got a good recipe for an extract based peach or raspberry
beer?
steve tollefsrud

*I've done rasberries in stouts/ pales, primary and secondary.
I now have my first peach on the way.   I can tell you that a flat of
rasberries (4 #) at the end of the boil makes a nice red berry flavor
and pink head in a malty pale ale.  
I'm about to keg up my rasberry brown with berries in the secondary.
It's a yummy one!  I think I'll drop in some molasses to balance the 
tartness of the berry.
I used  about a half bushel of peaches- pitted, frozen, smushed into
carboy- and secondary beer dropped on top.  I feel that a lighter beer
is more fitting for peach.  
    I'm inclined to keep the hopping rate down on a fruit beer to
let the fruit come through. Something semi floral. but not too
overpowering.  Say Williamete rather than Cascade.  Rasberries are
commonly found paired with stouts.  I like seeing the color all
that fruit lends to a brew.  Maybe a light porter if you want dark
flavor in there.  
    Freezing fruit- and pectic enzyme can help get the most out of 
fruit, and aid in clearing of the brew.
***
Subject: SPRUCE beer

     I am thinking about making an extract-based batch of spruce beer.
I would be interested in comments about whether it's worth it, and if so,
how much spruce should be used for a five gallon batch.  Thanks in advance.

John
pavao at ptsws1.npt.nuwc.navy.mil

*  I will never try this again ( I don't think...???)  I tried
extract (6 oz) for a 10 gallon batch (was supposed to be good
for up to 6 gallons....) and it tasted like PLASTIC.
SO...when in Oregon in the spring I tried picking spruce and the 
"spruce" hemlock tree-  fresh green sprigs.
I had a gallon bagful.  Added them like hops, and had a beer
that tasted like sucking sap or something...a chemical flavor
that was not "enjoyable".  I rarely EVER dump a batch..but...

Maybe a very small sprig of spruce... waved above the pot during 
the boil, then tossed in the fireplace...  I'll stick with fruit
for now!
** 
OK OK       Enough of that "dpdGggc29tZSBtY-ing" on Chris's blip.
  So not everyone is a computer guru.  I don't think we need any
more bw used quoting  gobbledy goop, or discussing men who boogy.
    BTW Thanks for the ACTUAL translation that was posted.
                        THAT HELPED!  
***
JC ferguson mentioned a brew which...

tasted quite similar to Miller's answer to the Microbreweries (what was the
name.....
*           Miller Reserve (especially the amber),  100% Barley Draft...
***
>making beer and wine for personal comsumption is legal is all 50 states. 
>(ed. true yet?)

No, not true yet.  In Missouri we are still dangerous criminals producing 
powerful, mood-altering drugs.  Let's do keep our facts straight.

*   Utah too suffers from Prohibition laws in our "modern" age.
At least Georgia got out from under.  Write your congressman today!

*also note:  Brewking sack ad in Sharper Image quotes:
    "federal govert allows you to make up to 25 gallons of homemade
    beer each year.  NFS in AL,Georgia. Resident of UT,Alabama, 
    Oklahoma please consult local authorities before ordering"

Yeah right.  Like I'm gonna ask first!  Like I'm gonna order a
brewbag anyway!  All grain or bust!  (well...occasionall extract...
but only on a weeknight!)  It's $39.95 plus 6 S&H for 25 pints.
They have a "traditional export ale" and "premium lager".  Oh yum.

Damn at 25 gal/yr I could be done brewing in 2 weeks!
Too bad The Sharper Image doesn't have a Sharper grasp of the legality.
  
It is nice the know that the authorities here are not interested
in enforcing this law.  I have good reason to believe that.
    Unless someone were to get stupid and try to sell it...like
at a deadshow or something...  but hey...that might work....hmmmmm!
***
  If the maximum percentage of alcohol allowed in a beer distributed to 
  my state is 3.5, for instance, what about the beer that might be 
  produced in a brewpub in my state? Must they conform to the same 
  percentages as the distributors or are there exceptions for an "on 
  premises only" beer?

  Just curious...

*Unfortunately YES.  At least in my "great" state.  I would hate the 
burden and restriction of producing "legal" beer.  The only "illegal"
beer you can purchase (imports and the like) are obtained ONLY thru
a STATE LISCENCED and OPERATED STORE.  But the micros do manage to make
some tasty brews once in while.  I'm glad that my personal "brewery"
is not required to conform to such strick regulations! But then it 
ain't open to the general public either. 
***
End of blabber for now. John (The Coyote) Wyllie  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu
****************************************************************

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 14:12:27 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Beer Drinks

Check any bartender's guide or list of recipes.  Some that I have tasted in 
the past and enjoyed include:

Black Velvet--stout and champagne
Red Eye--beer and tomato juice
Shandy--British lemonade (more like US Sprite than US lemonade) and ale

Unfortunately, most of the beer recipes just call for "beer", since they have 
been formulated by people who have only been exposed to one kind of 
beer--Worldwide megabrew tasteless pilsener.

Now if we could just get some interesting combinations with good styles.
Anyone know if a Red Eye is better with an IPA, for instance?

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org
If I were you, who would be reading this sentence?


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 11:13:46 -0700
From: paul at rational.com (Paul Jasper)
Subject: Re: Making drinks with Beeer?

On 14 Oct, 22:32, blazo at aol.com wrote:
> Subject: Making drinks with Beeer?
> 
> In HBD #1247, sean v. taylor <sean at chemres.tn.cornell.edu>
> RE:  Subject: Beer Drinks writes the following:
> 
> In London, England they mix bitter orange soda with beer and call the
> resultant beverage "Shandy".  In some parts of England this is called "Orange
> Shandy" and other soda beverages, Cherry, for instance, mixed with beer would
> be called "Cherry Shandy".

"Orange Shandy"?  "Cherry Shandy"?  I count myself as a Londoner and I've
never come across either of these.  "Shandy", a half and half mixture of
British lemonade (lemon soda) and beer is quite popular throughout Britain, 
especially as a thirst quenching drink on a hot summer day.   Some people
drink "bitter top" - bitter with a splash of lemonade - but they are
usually occasional drinkers who need something to sweeten their beer.

> It is almost shameful to admit it but (shudder) Orange Shandy tastes pretty
> darn good as a "lawnmower style" malt beverage.  I know that this probably
> offends the sensitivities of most of this audience, but, refuse to judge
> until you've tried it.  Mix equal parts Schweppes Bitter Orange with Double
> Diamond and see what I mean!

Yuck!

>-- End of excerpt from blazo at aol.com



- -- 
- -- Paul Jasper
- -- RATIONAL
- -- Object-Oriented Products
- --

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Date: 18 Oct 93 11:32:00 CST
From: "DEV::SJK" <SJK%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: HB law questions


Tom writes:
>>making beer and wine for personal comsumption is legal is all 50 states. 
>>(ed. true yet?)
>
>No, not true yet.  In Missouri we are still dangerous criminals producing 
>powerful, mood-altering drugs.  Let's do keep our facts straight.


If I remember my beer-lore correctly, I thought Big Jimmy O'Carter made
homebrewing technically legal in this country (correcting an earlier
oversight).  Being but a simple software engineer, my legal credentials
are a good approximation of nil, but I thought federal law superceded
state/local law.  That is, if the Feds say it's OK for me to manufacture
certain kinds of drugs in my kitchen, then it doesn't matter one whit
what Missouri or any other state has to say about it.  Yes?

This reminds of the request (by ?) recently for a recipe/ procedures for
making an eisbock.  Isn't this a form of distillation (intentionally
concentrating the beer by freezing some of the water and drawing whats
left off) and isn't that illegal?  Just wondering...

Scott Kaczorowski
sjk%c17fcs.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 11:29:52 -0700
From: froeh at jpats.ecc.naa.rockwell.com (Michael Froehlich)
Subject: Woodruff Ale


I would like to find out how to make a Woodruff Ale.  I had one
at the Oregan Brewers Festival and it was superb.  It had a 
pumpkin pie and malt taste that were perfect together.  If anyone
knows what woodruff is (spice or combination of spices???) or 
knows how to make a woodruff ale, please answer this call for 
help.

      Brewingly Yours,

             Michael Froehlich



/*
*****************************************************************************

**** ==========> Michael Froehlich <============ ****************************

**** ----> froeh at ecr.ecc.naa.rockwell.com) <---- ****************************

**** --------->> (310) 647-1482 <<-------------- ****************************

*****************************************************************************
*/


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Date:         Mon, 18 Oct 93  14:36:03 EDT
From: Allan Janus <NASARC07 at SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject:      Beer Drinks


I have a short shandy saga:  once in London I had dragged my luggage to
Victoria Station and was absolutely exhausted.  I noticed a vending machine
with shandy available (it's my impression that just saying "shandy" gets you
beer & lemonade).  Perishing with thirst, I raised can to lips, and instantly
recovered my full vigor - nothing like sugared beer to really get you moving.
Other beer drinks -
Dog's Nose - beer and gin; a favorite of seamen in the age of Nelson, and
curiously enough, amongst present-day Japanese.  Keep the gin in the freezer,
use any old lager, great at the beach.
Snake Bite - beer and cider - excellent, but incredibly intoxicating - espec-
ially when you hit the open air.
Black Velvet - Stout and cider - my favorite - it's like a stout milkshake. I
know that BV also refers to Guiness & champagne, but if you ask for BV in a pub
you'll get it with cider.
And of course Red-eye; beer and tomato juice; thanks anyway.


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 14:44:01 -0500 (EDT)
From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas)
Subject: beer sour

   Here's a drink made with beer that's a staple on backpacking trips:

   Bartenders (tm) or similar Whiskey Sour Mix (or Half Sour Mix)
   Whiskey
   Beer

   Add 2 oz. whiskey to 1 package sour mix in a 12 oz. or so cup.  
   Dissolve mix.  Add beer.  Watch out, it foams.  A very quenching
   beverage.

Russ Gelinas
ssc/opal
unh


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Date: 	Mon, 18 Oct 1993 11:29:15 PDT
From: Mark_Davis.osbu_south at xerox.com
Subject: Re: hot priming


Bart asks:
>I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary since the
>thermal mass of 1 pint of 200F sugar water is nothing compared with 5
>gallons  at  70F.  So what if I zap a few yeast cells on the initial contact ?
>They don't have very good lawyers anyway.
>
>I've never had the guts to actually risk a batch with this hot combination
>experiment.  Has anyone else done this successfully ?  I'd like to
>simplify my process.

Well Bart this has been my standard practice for the start. I just put the hot
sugar solution in the bottling carboy and rack the beer for the secondary right
on top of it. I have had no problems with it as of yet. As you said before the
thermal mass of 1 pint of 200F sugar water is nothing compared with 5 gallons  at 
70F.

Mark

P.S.
   I heard that the yeast cells are consulting with a new legal firm.

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 14:13:34 CST  
From: "Andrew B. Deliyannides" <Andrew.B.Deliyannides.1 at nd.edu>
Subject: 

Anyone have any good ideas on how to blowoff those kraeusen chunkies from
a 5 gal carboy without compromising sanitation? I've heard ghost stories
about little critters creeping up unsealed blowoff tubes, so I've tried
attaching a fermentation lock at the end of a really long blowoff tube. A
clumsy solution: the foam still manages to percolate through the lock,
sometimes clogging and blowing off the lid. It's rather comical. The only
other makeshift idea I have is to simply submerge the end of the blowoff
tube in a bucket of chlorox solution. Sure, you'd have to change the
solution every once in a while once it got polluted, but at least none of
those critters would crawl up the tube. Or is this much ado about nothing?
Is the kraeusen itself protection enough from critters?
ABD

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 11:55:19 PDT
From: troy at scubed.scubed.com (Troy Howard)
Subject: Re:  hot priming


Bart asks if anyone has added near-boiling priming syrup to beer.

Yep.  I *usually* cool my syrup down  before it comes in contact with
the beer, but there have been times when I was just too darn impatient.

Result:  screams of about 10,000 yeast dying, then . . . silence.

As far as I can tell, there was no detrimetal effect.  The beer carbonated
quite nicely, no funny tastes, no law-suits from disgruntled yeast-relatives.

 -Troy

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 15:20:24 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Wyeast 2278 / when where?

I have heard mention of a new strain of yeast from Wyeast 
 Wyeast 2278 Chech Lager.

My local HB shop can't get it.  Is it available? Where and When can I get
it.  What are its characteristics.
I have heard that this is a good strain for lagers with OG's greater than
1.050  Is this true?

please post replies to the net I have an unreliable mailer.

Lee Menegoni  lmenegoni at nectech.com




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mark S. Nelson" <mnelson at eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Brewpub Review

The opinions expressed below are mine only.  Others can decide what they
are worth.

On a recent visit to the Los Angeles area I had the opportunity to visit
two brewpubs (both fairly new).  This is a review of the Humtington Beach
Brewing Company.

Being that it had been over two years since my last visit to Huntington
Beach, I was very upset by the recent changes to the area around the
intersection of Pacific Coast Highway and Main St.  What used to be a
charming area with strong local atmosphere has now been converted into a
stale, sterile tourist scene much like many others in southern Calif.
Most of the old buildings have been torn down and replaced by stuccoed,
pinkish things that are horrible to behold.

However, there are still some hold-outs and the Huntington Beach Brewing
Co. is located in one.  Although the pub is a bit difficult to locate on
the first try, it is worth the search.  HBBC can be found upstairs in one
of the older buildings still standing.  I was immediately impressed by the
old brick, stylish wood furnishings and high, beamed ceilings.  There is
outside, patio seating and plenty of indoor seating as well. 

The brewery is located directly behind the bar. The hot liquor tank, mash
tun and kettle are in front, with the fermenting tanks behind.  It seemed
a bit cramped, but very functional.  The crushed grain comes down from the
storeroom in the attic and the holding tanks are in a cooling room adjacent.
They also brew pilsners and lagers.

The beers they had on hand were:

Main Street Wheat:  This is a light, slightly dry wheat.  Very tasty and
refreshing for hot, summer days.  My only complaints with this beer would
be that it was filtered and that it was a little light on the wheat taste.
However, these complaints are minor and would not stop me from happily
drinking it.

Huntington Beach Blond:  This is a light pilsner.  In all honesty, this is
the first pils. I've ever had in a brewpub.  It was a very tasty, American
style pilsner.  Sort of like what the major breweries could do if only
they cared...  Light in the mouth with a pleasent ending.

Bolsa Chica Bitter:  A mild bitter.  Nice red color and crisp taste and
feel.  My favorite of those on hand.

Pacific Porter:  I honestly can't say too much about this one, as it was
the last I sampled.  I do know that I liked it, and happily finished off a
pint before going back to the bitter.

Overall, the beer was very good, as well as the food.  The atmosphere was
friendly and comfortable, although it was during the day.  I'm sure it
gets very crowded at night though.  My only consistant complaint would be
that all the beers I sampled seemed heavily filtered.  Considering their
clientelle, though, this is not suprising.  Again, this complaint is not a
serious problem and I look forward to my next visit.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

Mark S. Nelson      nelsonm at axe.humboldt.edu      mnelson at eis.calstate.edu



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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:20:06 MDT
From: Kevin Schutz <kschutz at atmel.com>
Subject: rock bock/sam adams (tm) radio spots/mixed beer drinks

RE:  Rolling Rock Bock

I tried this about a month ago when I saw it a the store.  I was drawn to
the neat bottle.  I thought it was nice (the label is a clear plastic type with 
the printing on the plastic, sort of like what some of the bottle waters are 
using).  I guess I liked the bottle better than the beer.  I certainly wouldn't
call it a bock.  But it was very drinkable.  The packaging got me to bite on a
6-pack.  I doubt I would get any more though.

RE:  Sam Adams radio spots

Thanks Norm for the update on what GABF was doing in conjunction with Jim's 
advertising.  I thought it strange that IMMEDIATELY after the GABF, I started
to hear more of his commercials, something to the effect of "best beer 4 years
running".  Made it sound like he won again.  Then I saw the winners list (I
didn't get to go to the fest).  I can't recall the station I heard it on, but
it had to have been a Denver or Colo Springs station.  It was on the following
Monday though.

Guess this goes to show what $$$ can buy in the way of laywers and creative
marketing types.

RE: Making drinks w/ Beer.

Here's an old set of recipes from my early college days.  I'd like to think 
that I'm a bit wiser these days.  The source is an old roommate from Kansas 
(nothing seemed to affect this boy!).

Kansas Whirlwind:
1 can Coors Light, drink 1/4 of the can, top off can with Everclear.

Kansas Twister:
1 can Coors Light, drink 1/2 of the can, top off can with Everclear.

Kansas Tornado:
1 can Coors Light, drink 3/4 of the can, top off can with Everclear.

I REALLY don't recommend these, but I thought it could provide some interesting
reference point for someone.  BTW, my roommate typically used the tall cans
(16 ouncers)!  I never could keep up with that one.

Also, when I was over in England (1991), I saw a number of people order up 
mixers of a bitter and lemonade.  I can't recall what they were called though.  
Seemed like the name varied depending on whether it was a bitter, Special 
Bitter or ESB.  Looked strange, but then so did all of the Bud longnecks!  I 
never did try one though (or a Bud - does the Bud in England differ from the
Bud found in the States?  I'm sure what I saw was not an import from the USA.
I never thought about until I returned from my trip.).

Kevin

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1251, 10/20/93