HOMEBREW Digest #1274 Wed 17 November 1993

Digest #1273 Digest #1275

		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Cider,  Mead  /  Strength and Yeast #'s (COYOTE)
  Not a flame/Enterobacteriaceae (korz)
  Flying homebrew (Bob Knight)
  New book for the Chemist in you (Scott Benton)
  Sanitation FAQ (ELTEE)
  Treacle & Other Brit Sugars (thutt)
  What is "black treacle" (Paul Hethmon)
  fast ferment/chiller/etc. (Russell Gelinas)
  Noche Bueno (John Adams)
  mead recipe - oops (Eric Saidel)
  sanitizing bottle washers (EKELLY)
  Filtering update (Jim Busch)
  Various (Jim Busch)
  chillers, bottle yeast, Miller's method, Papazian picture (Ulick Stafford)
  Re: barleywine (Peter McLachlan)
  A real lager and "kegs" (esonn1)
  Dispensing from Kegs (was keg pressure questions) (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Decoction & Astringency (GANDE)
  FAQ (David Moore)
  mash in temps (James Gallagher)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Articles are published in the order they are received.) Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc., to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU), then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first. Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored. For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 13:45:15 -0600 (MDT) From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> Subject: Cider, Mead / Strength and Yeast #'s ***** From: "Christopher J. Lacenere" <cl38+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Subject: HARD CIDER? How to's * Don't boil cider. You'll get jello haze! You can pasteurize, but easier is to treat cider with campden tables (Na -bisulfate...). Crush, dissolve, add. Don't breath the gas! Sulfur hurts! Give it 24 hrs, then pitch a good yeast starter. Champagne is a good one. Other good things to add: Grape tannin, yeast nutrient, pectic enzyme... HONEY! I've found my ciders to have a fuller, more balanced flavor when I add honey to the ferment. Typical Recipe: 4 gallons cider. Treat w/campden. Heat 5 # honey in water- to 1 gallon. Add other goodies. Add honey mix to cider, and pitch yeast. I usually ferment for a month, and rack several times. Bottle straight- apple wine/ Cyser, or sparkle it by priming. ***** Mead Extract? There actually is a kit sold by Williams (no connectn..blah) for making mead. (800-759-6025) $6.90, everything but the honey. I've made meads for about 4 years now. I've never made a Mead w/malt, but I have made beers with honey. :) On the order of 2-5 pounds into a brew. I like it. Brown sugar is another favorite. Suggestion for both Mead and Cider: Treat it like a wine. Get a wine book and learn about acid-testing, stabilization, adjusting sweetness... "The art of making wine" Anderson & Hill is a good one. You'll be able to get much better balanced products that way. Just count on time. The best advice: Be Patient. Leave it alone! Rack several times, to get it cleared properly. Personally I don't like adding hops to mead anymore. I've tried it, and found the bitterness out of place in an often sweet beverage. In dry meads there is nothing to balance the bitter, and it bites thru 2 much. Considering the potential strength of most wines/meads the added bacterial inhibition from hops should not be needed. FYI: There is a Mead Lovers Digest, and a Cider digest. They (at least the MLD) are/is archived at sierra.stanford. pub/mead or are distributed by e-mail. The NEWS group red.crafts.wine commonly discussed mead/cider from a wine perspective. ***** From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <in%"jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU"> Subject: Re: good for yeast/good for beer >...in the Bay Area we have three brewpubs called Gordon Biersch (sp?).(Those in Pasadena, keep your eyes open.) * Drool pant sputter....Really? I'm headed that way over X-mas. Am I too early for their arrival? I've been to the Crown Brewery, and the John Bull Pub has some NICE imports on tap. Do you know what the name of the brewpub will be down there? Location? I'd love to know! :) >Then I had a flash of insight: what if you can get the yeast to undergo a bit of extra growth? You can use more malt for the same amount of alcohol. This might give you a bit more maltiness. I asked him if this was the reason, * I don't think it really works that way. Product production (e.g. etoh and co2) are related to the substrate concentration. The rate will be affected by the amount of enzyme/~= cell numbers. BUT the amount of product will depend on the amount of substrate...i.e.fermentable malt sugars. * So I don't think that the brewmeister there really has to worry about you sleeping with his wife! Besides, you shouldn't do that on the hbd! / "I don't just talk beer, I AM beer! I think beer, therefore I am-beer" \ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John (Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - -------------------_____________________________________------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 14:25 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Not a flame/Enterobacteriaceae Ulick writes: >a carboy. Papazian's book is a good starter for the nervous, but for anyone >who has brewed before and wants to get a good handle on water treatment and >all-grain, Miller is a better choice. Noonan is not for beginners, and while >riddled with errors, the people to whom it's aimed can usually work it out. Then we are in agreement. >In his second posting, Mr. Korzanos, advocated the handling of hops with >sanitized surgical gloves, based on the notion that there are more >bacteria on hands than in the mouth - hardly a scientific determination, >and considering the antibacterial properties of hops, I doubt if many bacteria >would survive - and what would they eat? I imagine stored hops are too acid >for bacteria. I wonder why someone like me who dry hops by stuffing hops >with by bare hands through carboy openings has never had an infected batch >attributable to dry-hopping? Luck may have a lot to do with it, but indeed, the chances of an infected batch from dryhopping are quite low provided that the dryhops are added once the beer has mostly fermented out. See my Technical Communication in the first issue of Brewing Techniques for my reasoning. I posted what I do and why I do it. I *sell* hops -- I feel a responsibility to my customers to give them the best product I can and that includes reducing any risk of contamination. If my methods are overkill, then too bad for me, but I don't see why you need to get upset about what I do. In a related topic, Mark writes: >They took cultures from the hops and found they contained >wild yeasts of three kinds and many different kinds of >bacteria - some gram positive and negative, mostly >"Enterobacteriaceae" whatever that means. It refers to enteric bacteria, which means "bacteria that reside in the intestines." Back to Ulick: >He then admits he is primarily an ale brewer and does not have much recent >lager experience, but nevertheless responds to someone enquiring about >pitching fresh yeast when bottling a lager (a correct procedure), >DON'T CHANGE YEASTS AT BOTTLING TIME!!! >because his home perm solution carbonated OK. I can say categorically that >I have made several strong beers, (Ales, actuallY) that have not >carbonated satisfactorily because I failed to add fresh yeast. >The reason Mr Korzanos gives is 'glass grenades', especially for lagers - >those beers with which he is so intimately familiar, without any examples >at all - just his vague suspicion. Read my post again, you obviously missed my point. Perhaps I was unclear. With any beer, ale or lager, it is risky to pitch a *different strain* of yeast at bottling time, because if you pitch a more attenuative yeast strain, you will have gushers (at best -- depending on the yeasts, you could create exploding bottles). My contention was that fresh yeast at bottling time was not an *absolute* requirement for lagers in general (as you contend) and was based upon personal experience, the experiences of others in the HBD, and the experiences of members of local homebrew clubs. >Also, I considered the crabtree effect a good reason to abandon corn >sugar, but of course there are other good reasons to stick with it. >One must balance everything. Some people are quite happy carbonating with >sterile wort or kraeusen, and for lager there is no topping the latter >method (IMHO). Even Anheuser-Busch do it!! Did I slam Carl for abandoning corn sugar? No, I just posted what I did and some of my reasoning. Frankly, IMHO, your opinions don't sound so humble. I stand behind everything I wrote in those posts. If you disagree, then please post civilized rebuttals. For the record, it's Korzonas, but you can call me... Al. (last name omitted for brevity, anonymity and unprofessionalism ;^) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 17:38:18 -0800 From: rknight at qualcomm.com (Bob Knight) Subject: Flying homebrew Over the last few weeks I've seen a couple of articles from HBD'ers who tried taking homebrew on airplanes in their carry-on luggage; one got stopped by airport security who for some reason objected to his carrying unlabeled bottles of dangerously murky brown fluid onto an airliner, and one was simply warned that he should not drink it in flight. Has anyone else had any good or bad experiences carrying homebrew onto a plane? Or, for that matter, checking homebrew in their luggage? Thanksgiving is rapidly approaching, and I suspect that Enquiring Minds Want To Know. Bob (Desperately searching old Eddie Murphy albums for an obnoxious .sig) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 21:25:39 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Benton <sbenton at telerama.pgh.pa.us> Subject: New book for the Chemist in you The American Chemical Society (ACS) announces the release of "Beer and Wine Production: Analysis, Characterization and Technological Advances" ACS Symposium Series No. 536. 280 pages ISBN 0-8412-2714-4 (clothbound) $59.95 ISBN 0-8412-2724-1 (Paperbound) $24.95 (Available Jan 1994) "Describes how modern technology is used to produce and maintain the flavor quality of beer and enhance the quality of wine. Discusses the current understanding of the sensory aspects of natural phenolic and turpenoid compounds in grapes and the sensory effects of certain competitive spoilage organisms present in fermenting grape juice. Presents insights into how current analytical, filtration, and enzymes technologies are used to analyze and process beers and wines. Also includes chapters on home brewing and winemaking." Call Toll free 1-800-227-5558 in Wash, DC 202-872-4363 or FAX 202-872-6067 The poster has not evaluated this book. Nor is he affiliated with the American Chemical Society other than as a member. Nor does he stand to derive any benefit, monetary or otherwise, from this posting. Nor does he believe that it should be necessary to post such a ridiculous disclaimer. Scott D. Benton sbenton at telerama.pgh.pa.us Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:50:34 -0400 (EDT) From: ELTEE at delphi.com Subject: Sanitation FAQ Does anyone know if there's a sanitation FAQ out there? It seems like every time I get one problem cleared up I get another one (like the 50 bottles of butterscotch I now have in the basement). I'm pretty sure it's not the yeast, it tasted great when it when into the bottle. Ken Bair Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 08:31:51 est From: thutt at mail.casi.sti.nasa.gov Subject: Treacle & Other Brit Sugars I'm getting tired of seeing the Great Treacle Question posed and pondered time and time again. In HBD 1273, Bruce Beck wondered what Golden Syrup is (I dunno) and once again mentioned the mysterious Treacle. No, you cannot buy treacle in the U.S., but that is not the full answer. To get the full answer, we must first find out exactly what Treacle is. Once and for all, Treacle is simply blackstrap molasses. You can get this in many places in the U.S. Demararra, which I also have sitting in my house, is simply a light brown sugar with molassess added. It looks similar to the US brown sugar, but is not as moist (I've not opened the package yet, so I cannot give taste results). The U.K. also has a light brown granular sugar that I have never encountered before I went to London in June. I've not tried it either, but I am hoping to use them all in some sweet brown ales this season. Someone was making a 'Sugars FAQ'. They may want to update this information.... Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 09:03:46 -0500 From: Paul Hethmon <hethmon at cs.utk.edu> Subject: What is "black treacle" So, I went to my local homebrew shop to pick up the ingredients for "Old Snead's Stout" (Dave, I'll let you know how it turns out) and had a bit of a problem. They didn't know what black treacle was, and neither do I. So can someone tell me what it is? | Paul Hethmon | Anonymous ftp for | hethmon at cs.utk.edu | Woodworking: cs.rochester.edu | University of Tennessee | HomeBrew: sierra.stanford.edu | Knoxville, Tennessee | OS/2 Info: ftp-os2.cdrom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:12:47 -0500 (EST) From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas) Subject: fast ferment/chiller/etc. Wyeast 1098 (Whitbread ale), dated 11/3/93, fully puffed up 24 hours after breaking inner seal. A couple of starters later, it fermented out 5 gallons of 1.050 wort in 36 hours at 68F, including a 12-24 hr lag time. That's healthy yeast. Tell me if this makes sense. Since most homebrewers underpitch, we don't want to pitch fermenting yeast (ie. high krausen), we want to pitch reproducing yeast (ie. pre-krausen). That way when they hit the fresh (well oxygenated!) wort, they continue to reproduce, ensuring a large colony and a healthy ferment when it's time. The way to ensure this would be to pitch a starter shortly after it has been inoculated, before the krausen begins. In the 1098 case above, the fully-puffed packet was pitched into a starter that was allowed to ferment out. 1/2 of that starter was pitched into a new starter. Before this had a chance to show any signs of ferment (3-4 hours later), it was pitched into the full 5 gallon batch. The relatively long lag time seen may be an indication of the yeasts intial tendency for reproduction in this scheme. The very large amount of yeast that flocculated out after the ferment would also support this theory. Btw, none of this was planned; it was purely chance. Next time it will be planned. - ------ Thanks to the person who recommended hanging an immersion chiller over the sides of the brewpot, to allow it to sit in the top of the hot wort (the hottest part). Not only did the wort cool faster, but the cover sat tighter, and it did not need to be stirred at all. Thanks again. - ----- Russell Gelinas opal/ssc (EOS) Univ. of New Hampshire gelinas at ekman.unh.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 08:33:08 -0700 From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com> Subject: Noche Bueno > Good news! Joe Barfield of Southwest Brewing News has just informed me > that Noche Bueno is back. It is being brewed in Monterrey by the > Cuauhtemoc group, and will be distributed in selected test markets by > Guinness Imports. Laurie is currenting forming a flavor panel, and we > will write an article for SWBN summarizing the results along with > related information. I will also post it on HBD. George I am curious, this has been one of my favorite beers and in the past 4 (5??) years I have been unable to find any nor was I able to find out why it wasn't being distributed/produced. While I am very happy to know it will be made again (although it sounds as like it will be in limited distribution) what was the reason it wasn't being produced in the past few years? John Adams Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 09:56 CDT From: Eric Saidel <SAIDEL at macc.wisc.edu> Subject: mead recipe - oops I just reread the recipe for apple mead I sent yesterday - it should say a third of a cup of honey for every *gallon* of mead (not every bottle). Of course doing it by the bottle might make for some very interesting results :() - eric Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:45:56 -0400 (AST) From: EKELLY at admin.stmarys.ca Subject: sanitizing bottle washers [ This message contains the file 'TEMP.WP5', which has been uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents out to a file. If you are not using Pegasus Mail, you will have to extract the message and uudecode it manually.] begin 660 TEMP.WP5 M1&]E<R!A;GEO;F4 at :VYO=R!H;W< at =&\ at <V%N:71I>F4O<W1E<FEL:7IE(&$ at M8F]T=&QE('=A<VAE<BX at 22!A;0T*<F5F97)R:6YG('1O('1H92!B<F%S<R!D M979I8V4 at =&AA="!A='1A8VAE<R!T;R!A(&9A=6-E="!A;F0-"G)E;&5A<V5S M(&$ at :&EG:"!P<F5S<W5R92!J970 at ;V8 at =V%T97( at :6YT;R!A(&)O='1L92 H M;W( at 8V%R8F]Y*2X-"E1H:7, at 9&5V:6-E(&AA<R!A('-M86QL(&)A;&P at :6YS M:61E('1H92!E;F0 at <&EE8V4 at =VAI8V at at 86-T<R!A<R!A#0IV86QV92!T;R!S M:'5T(&]F9B!T:&4 at :F5T(&]F('=A=&5R('=H96X at =&AE(&)O='1L92!I<R!R M96UO=F5D+B!)= T*87!P96%R<R!T:&ES(&)A;&P at <')E=F5N=', at =&AE(')E M<VED=6%L('=A=&5R(&9R;VT at 9')A:6YI;F< at 9G)O;0T*=&AE(&1E=FEC92!A M9G1E<B!I=', at =7-E+B!4:&ES('=A=&5R('-E96US('1O(&)E('1H92!S;W5R M8V4 at ;V8-"F-O;G1A;6EN871I;VX at :6X at 82!C;W5P;&4 at ;V8 at ;7D at 8F%T8VAE M<RX at 22!A;2!N;W0 at <W5R92!I9B!M97)E;'D-"G)U;FYI;F< at =V%T97( at =&AR M;W5G:"!W:6QL(&9L=7-H('1H92!C;VYT86UI;F%T:6]N+B!)(&AA=F4 at =')I M960-"FEN:F5C=&EN9R!B;&5A8V at at :6YT;R!T:&4 at 9&5V:6-E(&9O;&QO=V5D M(&)Y(&%N(&]V97)N:6=H="!S;V%K#0IW:&EC:"!R97-U;'1E9"!I;B!T:&4 at M9&5V:6-E('1U<FYI;F< at 82!S:&%D92!O9B!G<F5E;BX-" at T*06YY(&%D=FEC M92!O<B!A<W-I<W1A;F-E('=I;&P at 8F4 at 87!P<F5C:6%T960N#0H-"D5D($ME M;&QY#0I386EN="!-87)Y)W, at 56YI=F5R<VET>0T*2&%L:69A>"P at 3F]V82!3 I8V]T:6$L($-A;F%D80T*#0IE:V5L;'E 861M:6XN<W1M87)Y<RYC81IV end Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> Subject: Filtering update Last Feb, I posted about my experience using a 5 micron cartridge filter to remove excess yest in an Altbier I made. Since then, I have recently filtered 6 cornelious kegs, 3 pale ales, and 3 "Dunkles Wicked Ale" (my lab is named Dunkles). I was really happy with the results. My current brewing practice is to use a SS open fermenter, skimming the American yeast off the top as the ferment ends, and skimming the initial junk off the early fermentation. Since I keg directly from my primary, I have been carrying over a significant amount of suspended yeast. I was getting a bit tired of the yeasty beer, so I pulled out my 5 micron filter bought from the Filter Store, and went at it. Some of the kegs were carbonated, and while they filtered fine, the flow rate seemed quite slow. The two flat kegs filtered much quicker. The resulting beers are a nice "polished" look, similar to many breweries that filter, but dont overdo it. One of my main objections to filtering is the need to clean and sanitize more equipment, drag. To simplify things, I cleaned and sanitized 3 kegs, and as I emptied a yeasty keg, I just rinsed the yeast out with real hot water, and cooled it. This keg then became one of the receiving tanks for the next filtered beer. Since I was filtering two quite different beers, I back flushed the filter between beer types, and tons of yeast came out. I still think that a 5 micron filter is perfectly adequate for removing excess yeast. The best thing is the true beer flavors, malt and hops, come through much better in the filtered version than in the unfiltered. I think this is one the suprising things about filtering. BTW, I used a "quat" based sanitizer, VigilQuat, and stored the filter in a solution of this sanitizer. Good brewing, Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:03:50 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> Subject: Various > From: D S Draper <D.S.Draper at bristol.ac.uk> > Subject: Yeast culturing--an update > > Brief recap of the earlier problems: pitched three batches of beer with > cultures from bottles beers; the first was not properly sanitized, so got > an infection. The second was properly sanitized, but resulted in a wild > yeast infection that can only have come from the yeast that was inside the > bottle. The third batch had a sour taste that was a mild wild-yeast > infection. In each case, less than a pint of starter was pitched, just at If you dont streak the "yeasts" into single colonies , you were not "culturing" , just growing whatever is in the bottle. > > An additional note: The wild yeast taste I got in my first two batches, > which I described as sort of mediciny, is EXACTLY the main flavor I have > gotten from several very reputable beers: Chimay blue, Leffe Blond (both > Belgium), Pschorr-Brau Weisse, and Maisel's Hefe-Weizen (in Bayreuth, > Franconia). This taste was identified as definetly being wild by my > homebrew suppliers (who run a brewpub, so they know what they're talking > about I reckon), and it is a dead ringer for that in these beers. Go > figure... Phenols are produced by wild yeasts in large quantities. Phenolic notes are often evident in Belgium Ales, and German Weizens. The more brewpubs I visit, the less I feel "who run a brewpub, so they know what they're talking about". The quality in Micros is far greater than in many Brewpubs, sadly. > > Conclusions: If using bottle-conditioned yeast, step the starter up to > about a half gallon, and TASTE IT before committing it to your brew--keep > a dried packet or whatever on hand in case of failure. In future, I will > take the plunge into yeast culturing, isolating good colonies from these > bottled beers, and growing them into starter colonies that I then make > actual starter solutions from. Getting viable yeast from > bottle-conditioned beers can be done, but one must be careful. Pouring the dregs of a bottle into the pint starter and then into fresh wort is certainly risky, as your experience attests. In the US, people do this with SNPA, but this is a filtered beer that is force carbonated prior to the addition of fresh bottling yeast, the ferment yeast is not left in the bottle. It is also most likely a cleaner brewery than many in the UK. > From: richard_h at SMTPGATE.BCSEW.EDU > Subject: Yeast starters and aeration > > - Yeast reproduction begins as an aerobic process ("Gimme O2!"), for > about the first 12 hours. This is why we are told to aerate the > wort before pitching - the yeast will have a nice oxygen rich > environment to begin reproduction in. > > - The yeast starter has probably finished the aerobic cycle and is now > in an anaerobic state ("We don't need no stinkin' O2!") at the time > it is pitched into the wort. > > So, why doesn't the yeast in the starter (anaerobic phase) object to > finding its environment changed by being dumped into the oxygen rich > wort? Actually, it does. If O2 is present, the cells will revert to the respiration phase, until the O2 is gone, then the anerobic phase returns. If the starter is allowed to ferment, the yeast is ready to respire again. This is why some brewers prefer to let the starter ferment past high krausen, and decant the still beer off the starter, pitching the slurry. from JS: <I think what I learned is that the anti-bacterial characteristics of hops are <either a myth or greatly exagerated in the brewing folklore. Clearly, if <yeasts and bacteria live on the hops and can innoculate a culture dish, it is <not very bacteriocidal. I was under the impression that the alpha acids from boiling the hops are what produce the slight bactericidal agents, not the raw hops themselves. > From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> > Subject: Bambi Gas/ 7 up Gas/ Decoction > > Mike sez of a keg of 7-up: > > >Well, it's not working... I pressurized the keg at 30psi for 3 or 4 days in > a 50 degree garage... then dropped down to a dispensing pressure of > 12-14psi. When I hit the tap, I get 7up gushing from it. Foams like crazy, > but the finished product in the glass is pretty much flat. I.e., all the > CO2 comes out at dispensing time. What's wrong? > > * Drop 'em baby! I mean...uh...er...drop the PRESSURE. Yes that's it. > Beer is commonly dispensed at 2-5 psi once carbonated. If it foams, turn > it down. HINT: Drop pressure on keg FIRST, then drop pressure in > regulator. A very full keg can back beer up the gas line. Not good. :( Actually, No. If one increases the delivery pressure then you are "pushing" the beer out, as opposed to letting the beer "push itself" out. By letting the beer "push itself" out, you are decarbonating the beer. You need to reach equilibrium of , usually, around 2.5 volumes of CO2 in solution, and maintain 12 psi on the tank. IF the beer is gushing out at 12 psi, it is most likely overcarbonated, and indeed the answer is to bleed off excess pressure, then return to 12 psi. > > * Part of the decoction mash (as I understand it, as if anyone TRULY does!) > Involves starting the mash at cool temps, allowing the ACID REST which > should adjust the pH addequately to the acid side that tannins are not > extracted during the boil. It was NOT recommended to add gypsum. First part true, second part false, no problem adding gypsum. It all depends on your intial water chemistry, amount of dark malts to be used and lager versus ale yeasts. > Good brewing, Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 11:59:22 EST From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu> Subject: chillers, bottle yeast, Miller's method, Papazian picture In hbd1273 William Swetnam asks about chiller construction. I would recommend 1/4" copper tubing - it is cheaper to get more surface area by buying more length of 1/4" than bigger tubing and it is easier to shape. The reason one should use tubing of a larger diameter for couterflow chillers (high pressure drop) does not apply to immersion chillers, and the greater pressure drop across the narrower tubing may help conserve water where that is an issue. For clamps I just used a scrap of hose clamped outside with a regular hose clamp, although I am sure compression fittings are available. I have never seen a two stage chiller like you suggest - first through an ice bath prior to circulating through wort, although I have thought about it. For ales in the winter it is unecessary, but for lagers and summer brewing a better cold break would be nice. If using such a setup, to conserve ice, I would recommend not adding ice till the wort is chilled close to tap water temperature, and then add the ice. What I sometime do, is disconnect my water once tap temperatures are approached and connect a pump recirculating ice water. RE length 25" is fine for the wort chiller, although considering the length of copper tubing in the average box, you may use a longer length. Dave Draper relates his experience with culturing from bottle conditioned beers. I recently retired an ale yeast cultured from a bottle of Guinness (purchased in Ireland) because of suspected wild yeast contamination - gushing. However, I had used the yeast for many batches top cropping or bottom cropping along the way. Contamination with bacteria was an early problem, again probably because the brewery practice was not perfectly sterile. What I did after the first batch and then every second batch or so was acid wash with ammonium peroxydisulfate solution (a procedure outlined in 'Brewing Lager Beer' by Gregory Noonan). I made many excellent batches (and some less than stellar ones) with this yeast and these procedures. Keith McNeil worries about chipped enamelled canning pots. My well used pot has suffered the odd chip but it doesn't seem to be a problem. The chipped areas are well blackened with a thick carbon coat from many burnt decoctions - much as cast iron cookware is. So long as one doesn't clean the pot too well, it is my experience that chips are not a big problem. I was in one of those religious Miller vs. Papazian discussions at a homebrew tasting this weekend and the procedure mentioned by Mark Bayer - of Miller recommending pitching yeast on trub and then racking prior to Kraeusen is lovely on paper, and if one's yeast tends to be consistent good advice, but I remember one batch, an underpitched lager, for which I did this - racked after 6 hours or so, and had a 5 day wait till krausen (good job I don't worry too much!). I prefer not to rack till after krausen because of risks of infection and yeast loss. In my last posting in 1271 I mentioned the recommendation in Papazian to pour the hot wort in cold water in a carboy as being bad advice and received a number of worried responses, to some of whom email responses bounced. I'll quote Charlie himself, RDWHAHB. While this procedure is not correct - chilling in a bathtub or with a wort chiller prior to pouring is recommended, the amount of damage that could be expected due to hot side aeration is so slight that it is unlikely to be noticable. __________________________________________________________________________ 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ... | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng. Pabst Blue Ribbon!' | Notre Dame IN 46556 | ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 10:34:48 MST From: psm at sst10a.lanl.gov (Peter McLachlan) Subject: Re: barleywine >I am interested in brewing a barley wine from >an O.G. of 1.100 or higher, but don't wan't >F.G. above 1.030. If you want to lighten the body of your beer without bad side effects I recommend adding 15% of your grain and extract weight in honey. This should help drive the fermentation to completion. I get light clover honey in a local store for a buck a pound. Cheers, Peter Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:44:51 -0500 From: esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu Subject: A real lager and "kegs" Hello, I plan to brew my first real lager in the coming months and am now considering what new equipment I may need to acquire to do this. My big question, is do you need a fridge to brew a real lager? I thought it would be ok if I put the carboy in the basement, sitting in a pan of water, with a big t shirt over it so the t shirt dangled into the pan of water. My idea is that shirt would act as a wick and draw the water up over the carboy and evaporation would keep the carboy cool. I realize I would not have any _real_ control over the temparature of the carboy, but it seems it would work. Anyone tried this? Am I kidding myself? Second question. I have seen some plastic "kegs" in local home-brew shop which come from Europe. Supposedly, they can be used to carbonate in and draft beer from. Has anyone tried these? They seem like only a glorified beer ball. Thanks in advance, Eugene esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:55:31 -0600 From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965) Subject: Dispensing from Kegs (was keg pressure questions) John Wyllie COYOTE gives some advice on using kegging equipment in response to Mike Fetzer's question in HBD #1272: > Beer is commonly dispensed at 2-5 psi once carbonated. Some veddy British ales served with VERY low carbonation at 50F may be stored under as little as 2 PSIG, but these will generally be dispensed with a beer engine (essentially a hand-pump) and not with CO2 pressure. So storage pressure in this case has absolutely nothing to do with dispensing. Some pubs will dispense this type of ale with a CO2/N2 mixture, but this is a whole `nother topic. Most beers have considerably more carbonation than these ales though. Note that even at 32F, 8 PSIG is required to maintain 2.5 volumes dissolved CO2. At a more-typical 45F, this jumps to 15 PSIG. The 2-1/2 volume carbonation level is typical of beer-in-general, and although some might complain that its too fizzy, it seems that most people like it just fine, no matter where they live. The COYOTE continues... > If it [the beer -trl] foams, turn it [the pressure -trl] down. Oh- and I > don't care HOW long your dispensing line is! It's not my business :)! I guess the COYOTE means that MIKE'S difficulty is not the COYOTE's problem. If your beer foams, there is only one thing wrong -- you are releasing the CO2 from solution too fast. This is caused mostly by agitation. Agitation can be caused by restrictions in the serving line, and by the beer hitting the bottom of your glass too fast. Now for a bit of physics. Since this is a recurring topic, I'll post a more complete set of data that I have by the end of the week. But for starters, this'll get us in the ballpark. When storing beer, you want to keep enough pressure on it to maintain the desired carbonation level. For most British styles, we're looking for 1-1/2 volumes of dissolved CO2 (or so) and for most lager style beers, were looking for 2-1/2 volumes (or so). This can vary according to your taste. There are various pressure vs. temperature charts* floating around, but as an example, my Pilsner was stored and served at 40F, and 2.5 volumes of CO2. This means I need to store the beer under 14.0 PSIG to maintain carbonation. Now, since I want to serve directly from my storage vessel (the keg), I somehow need to "drop" or dissipate the 9 PSI in the dispensing system. My beer faucet is about 18" above the center of the keg. A vertical lift drops about 1 PSI per 12", so this automatically gets rid of 1-1/2 PSI, leaving me with 12-1/2. 3/16" ID beer line drops 2.1 PSI per foot of length due to fluid friction. So, I need 12-1/2 PSI --------------- = 6 feet of 3/16 ID beer line 2-1/10 PSI/Foot So. I cut a piece of line 5-1/2 feet long to account for drops at various fittings in the system, and hooked it all up. Proper flow rate for beer dispensing is about 2 ounces/second. And indeed, it takes about 10 seconds to fill my 22 ounce mug with about 16 ounces of beer, and a nice head. The carbonation remains in the beer because the pressure at the faucet is nearly zero PSIG, and the beer is not violently expelled against the bottom of my glass. > I don't think it'll cause any problems you can't compensate for with > adjustments to pressure. Kludgy half-way "solutions" are always possible. Physics, I think, is preferable. The only way to use a dispensing system that cannot provide sufficient resistance is to: 1) Store under correct pressure 2) Release all the excess pressure 3) Dispense n servings 4) Re pressurize for storage (Go To 1) If this is what you want to do, it will "work". But it sure is a hassle, don't you agree? Part of Mike's original question: > I pressurized the keg at 30psi for 3 or 4 days in a 50 degree garage... > then dropped down to a dispensing pressure of 12-14psi. When I hit the > tap, I get 7up gushing from it. Foams like crazy, but the finished > product in the glass is pretty much flat. I.e., all the CO2 comes out at > dispensing time. Three or four days isn't enough time for CO2 to dissolve into the 7UP, even at 30 PSI, so it really wasn't very carbonated to start with. To carbonate, you need to agitate. I do this by rocking my keg back and forth over a softball bat until I can't hear the CO2 flowing in anymore. Thus usually takes 15 minutes or so of constant agitation. so agitation under pressure ====> carbonation agitation without pressure ====> de-carbonation And you really need your pressure/temperature/dissolved CO2 chart to get it right. Anyhow, what carbonation that *was* in the 7UP came out all at once when the stuff hit the bottom of your glass at 90 miles an hour, leaving you with pretty flat 7UP. There have been many articles posted on the topic of carbonation. Look for more data from me in a few days. I'll expand a bit on the topic. Maybe it'll turn into a keg-dispensing FAQ or something. t *a nice chart can be ftp-ed from sierra at stanford.edu in pub/homebrew/docs/co2.txt ============================================================================= Tom Leith InterNet: trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU 4434 Dewey Ave. CompuServe: 70441,3536 St. Louis, Missouri 63116 "Tho' I could not caution all 314/362-6965 - Office I still might warn a few: 314/362-6971 - Office Fax Don't lend your hand 314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine to raise no flag atop no Ship of Fools" ============================================================================= Return to table of contents
Date: 16 Nov 93 18:02:26 GMT From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com Subject: Decoction & Astringency >From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.com (Phil Brushaber) >Subject: Decoction Question >Wouldn't boiling with the grains cause a problem with increased astringency and the leaching of excess tannins into the beer? JS>>Perhaps it's time to look into another momily. I get trashed every time I suggest using boiling water for sparging even though I always use decoction for my Pilsners. Astringency is a knee-jerk response that needs an objective look-see. JS and Phil discuss extracted tannis, astringency and 'momilies'. Later the Coyote man says nope, it's the ACID REST, and I'd go along with that. Decoction mashes are done with pre-sparge mash constituents, usually at a pH 5.3. From my understanding this level of acidity 'discourages' the extraction of tannins, making boiling a portion of the mash possible, without puckering results. Further to this one could assume that it would be OK to sparge with boiling water, which is accurate as long as your grain bed pH doesn't raise above 5.3, ideally. In the real world, sparging raises mash pH towards the end of the run and continuing to rinse with boiling water would leach out tannins. I made a mini-grain-tea-bag, boiled it for 10 minutes in tap water (pH 7.0) and it was what I would call astringent. That's enough proof for me. ;) ....Glenn Anderson Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 10:09:55 -0800 From: rossix!davidmo at openlink.openlink.com (David Moore) Subject: FAQ Does a FAQ exist for the homebrew mailing list?? If so, could someone kindly email me a copy?? Thanks, Dave ============================================================= David A. Moore | Phone: (415) 593-2500 Ross Systems Inc. | E-mail: davidmo at rossinc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 13:50:28 EST From: jimg at dcz.gso.uri.edu (James Gallagher) Subject: mash in temps I have noticed that many recipes here and elsewhere describe a procedure where grain is added to water at one temp and then the mash is raised to another temp. However, there are also recipes where grain is added to water at a temperature such that the mash does not need a boost to the proper temperature. Is there any reason not to always use water at a temp such that the mash will be at conversion temp. or protein rest temp. without adjustment? James Gallagher jimg at dcz.gso.uri.edu Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1274, 11/17/93