FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Homebrew into Sankey ("Real") Kegs... (Wayde Nie)
  Hop Rhizomes (John Farver)
  Hombrew Digest Utility Program (chris kayes)
  Brewing Pot (bmfogarty)
  RE: Jim Busch on Bpubs (John Oberpriller)
  NDN:Homebrew Digest #1377 (March 21, 1994) (network_manager)
  Dishwasher sanitizing, H2S (Bill Sutton)
  New Wyeast range (allison shorten)
  Re-Pitching Yeast (John D. Pavao)
  Where to plant hops (Jim Grady)
  Hop Utilization (Doug Lukasik)
  Canning Wort/Eggwhites/DME Priming/fruit-in-beer (Steven Tollefsrud)
  First MASH / LAGER (Gregg Tennefoss)
  ...no subject... (DJM1)
  re: animals & beer (Jim Sims)
  Re: Big brewing (Jim Busch)
  Re: specialty grain mashing (TODD CARLSON)
  Re: Kegging (Dion Hollenbeck)
  chill theory (RONALD DWELLE)
  Homemade burners, and a few other things... (Steve Kenshalo)
  Slamming? Not/Scotch Ale IBUs/new digest? (npyle)
  Utilization/Broken bottles (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Call for Judges, AHA NHC Denver (Steve Dempsey)
  blue ice/yeast freezing (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Pike Place Pale Ale (GANDE)
  Hop Utilization/Wort Chilling (Jack Skeels)
  Brit. Beerfest ("Stephen Schember")


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Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 15:30:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Wayde Nie <niew at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Homebrew into Sankey ("Real") Kegs...

Hi all,
	Eugene Sonn asked about putting Homebrew into Sankey kegs. This is
the type of keg setup that my brew-partner and I have put together. We
decided on this because it is convenient if (in a moment of weakness) we
wanted to dispense a commercial brew. Also, with a small modification this
same equipment can be used to fill a keg (or 20L cylinder as we usually
use) without removing the keg valve. 
	A Sankey keg uses the same connection point to both supply CO2 
and provide beer. The CO2 port inserts CO2 from the top of the keg and 
the beer out port is connected to a pipe leading down to the bottom of 
the keg. 
	The Sankey lock that connects to the keg has a CO2 in line that
usually connects off the side of the lock and a beer out line that
connects to the top. This beer out line has a "pea type" backflow valve to
stop any beer from draining back into the keg. This describes a CO2 setup,
I'm sure a air pump setup is similar.
	The only modification needed is to remove the backflow valve from
your Sankey lock/air pump. Then to clean your keg you can slide a standard
"bottle jet" washer into the beer out port. The jet of water will spray
through the beer pipe to the bottom of the keg and drain out of the CO2
port. Use you favourite sanitizer and when you are finished purge the keg
with CO2 through the beer out port to push any air out the CO2 port.
	To fill the keg start your siphon and drain into the beer out 
port of the Sankey. This method delivers the beer to the bottom of the 
keg so it avoids aeration. As the keg fills the excess CO2 will be pushed 
out of the open CO2 port. Then put your Sankey lock/air pump back 
together and use it to pressurise and carbonate the keg of homebrew.
	I hope this system works out for you. We've found it to be simple 
and effective with no need to fiddle with the keg valves. If you need any 
more info feel free to contact me through EMail.

Wayde Nie
NIEW at McMail.CIS.McMaster.CA



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Date: 	Sun, 20 Mar 1994 13:27:29 -0800
From: John Farver <bruticus at hebron.connected.com>
Subject: Hop Rhizomes

Rhizomes are currently available at Evergreen Brewing Supply (Bellvue, 
Wa) Larry's Homebrew Warehouse (Kent, Wa) and Brewers Warehouse (Seattle, 
Wa) Zymurgy has the address and ph# of these.
Also saw a ? about grassy smelling hops, could be first year hops, alpha 
would be low and would not mask the smell of green.
Question on hop plugs- They will expand slowly when put in boiling wort, 
there is no need to break them up first for boiling. 

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Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 17:27:55 -0500 (EST)
From: chris kayes <ckayes at world.std.com>
Subject: Hombrew Digest Utility Program

Attached is a MIME formatted IBM PC file - HBDATE.ZIP. This contains
the C source and executable for a program which sets the date of the HB
Digest file to the date of submission. I was getting pretty tired of the 
way UN*IX utilities, like UNCOMPRESS, treat file dates (ignore them), so I
wrote this program. Just UNCOMPRESS the HBD .Z file(s), run HBDATE (it takes
wildcard filenames) and set the date of the HBD file to the date it was
submitted.

Sorry if this takes up space, but this is the '90's. Get U're viewers.

Also, if anyone wants some fresh VERMONT Maple SAP, (that's SAP, not
syrple) please e-mail me.


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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 03:07:16 EST
From: bmfogarty at aol.com
Subject: Brewing Pot

I would appreciate the benefit of your collected knowledge.

I have been brewing now for about three months - in a borrowed 32quart
porcelain covered canning pot. I would like to "graduate" to a Stainless
Steel pot, but do not have lots of money to throw into a pot. Where can I get
a restaurant grade, eight gallon pot with a lid at the most reasonable price?
I certainly would appreciate any information available and thank you in
advance for your help. To save bandwidth, you might just  email me at
bmfogarty at aol.com. Thanks again

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 10:16:38 MET
From: John Oberpriller <s12int::l375bbk at god.bel.alcatel.be>
Subject: RE: Jim Busch on Bpubs

Jim Busch writes in response to my post concerning starting a brewpub on the
cheap.
   
  RE: brewpubs
 
>> Sprecher Brewery, Milwaukee, WI - This is a microbrewery, not a brewpub.  It
>> was started with approx. $10,000 using mostly converted dairy equipment.
     
> You get what you pay for.  Ever check the shelf life of a Sprecher product??
> Next time your in DC, get one at the Brickseller.


Was I talking about Sprecher's shelf life or how they got started on the
cheap about 10 years ago??  The point is that equipment normally
used for one purpose, *might* be usable in brewing.  A good portion of HBD is
dedicated to creating or converting equipment for brewing.  Can you think of
any brewing uses for a stainless steel temperature controlled milk storage
tank, Jim?

I also disagree with the idea that "you get what you pay for."  I have been in
many BIG BUCKS brewpubs that brew pond scum.  Big bucks does not guaranty good
beer.  I think IMHO that good beer can be brewed with a more modest investment.
Don't get me wrong, you need good equipment.  But it's possible with a little
creativity to cut your startup costs.

I was simply trying to help someone who might not have 500K of spare pocket
change.

Good Luck Brewpub Entrepreneurs!

John
                 
*======================================================*
*  internet: l375bbk%s12int.dnet at alcbel.be             *
*======================================================*

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 01:14:46 PDT
From: network_manager at aldus.com
Subject: NDN:Homebrew Digest #1377 (March 21, 1994)

Your mail to the Microsoft Mail Server could not be fully
delivered!   Reasons listed below!   It has been deleted.




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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 5:53:11 EST
From: Bill Sutton <wrs at hpuerca.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Dishwasher sanitizing, H2S

And for my first post to hbd (besides an accidental subscribe request...)

DISHWASHER SANITIZING

   It seems to me that the active ingredient in most dishwasher detergents
   is Sodium Carbonate (washing soda). This is also the active ingredient
   in B-BRITE. This seems to mean that there would be no need for additional
   sanitizers (like chlorine bleach) as long as the concentration of Sodium
   Carbonate is high enough.

   Does anyone have any ideas as to the concentration available from 
   dishwasher soap? I know I don't get any bacterial uglies in my dishes,
   but then I don't store bacterial feasts on them for months, either...

Hydrogen Sulfide

   I just finished racking a batch of pale extract/honey brew to secondary.
   It was fermented with the "new" (to our area, anyway) Glenbrew "secret
   brewers" dry yeast. I rehydrated it in 2 cups of wort from the batch
   (i.e. after boiling) and pitched it after it had started to form a krausen
   on the starter.

   The "problem" (if in fact there really is one) is that on the second day
   of fermentation a horrible odor of H2S invaded my fermenting room. This
   had disipated by the time I racked (though there was still a faint odor
   of it clinging to the brew). Interestingly, there wasn't the ring of dried
   and nasty krausen residue around the rim of my fermenter like I've
   gotten in the past.

   I am aware that a small amount of H2S is considered normal and that CO2
   will "scrub it out" to a certain extent. I don't think I had any
   autolysis in 3 days. My guess is that since there was a krausen on the
   "starter" the yeast was producing a "typical" H2S odor. I was also
   thinking that the "resorption" of the krausen residue might also have
   something to do with it.

   I'm not worrying, mind you (the taste at racking time makes me think
   this has potential), just thought I'd see if anybody had any ideas.

Ob HBD-bandwith-comment :-)

   I was worried for a while, what with flamewars on the proper spelling
   of bogeyman and the like, but I am now enjoying the discussions of
   hop utilization, em vs. fb vs. cm, and such. I think a balance between
   recipes, help for new/old brewers, and good old technical free-for-alls
   keeps everyone interested.

Bill Sutton   wrs at atl.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 21:40:16 +1000 (EST)
From: allison shorten <shorten at zeus.usq.edu.au>
Subject: New Wyeast range

I have recently regained access to the HBD after a hiatus of about 9
months. I have been interested to read fragments about a new range of
Wyeast yeasts. We have been getting the old range down here in Australia
for a couple of years now, but I havent seen or heard anything about a new
range at all from local sources. In fact, I helped a mate brew a batch
just a couple of weeks ago, and he had mail-ordered a Wyeast from
Melbourne specially for the occasion. It was the old style 1056 American
ale, complete with inner pouch and all
  Consequently, and since I never use anything else these days, I would
really appreciate any information and details on this new range. Thanks

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 07:01:52 EST
From: pavao at npt.nuwc.navy.mil (John D. Pavao)
Subject: Re-Pitching Yeast


Hello,

     I have recently started using liquid yeast and I'm wondering how
many times it is safe to pitch the yeast slurry from one batch into another.
My practice has been to sanitize a bottle and pour about eight ounces
of the slurry into it.  I then cap the bottle and store it in the
refrigerator until I brew the next batch.  On the day that I use the yeast,
I let it warm up to room temperature before pitching.  Any responses will
be appreciated.

John
pavao at ptsws1.npt.nuwc.navy.mil

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 7:24:19 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Where to plant hops

Last year, my wife and I bought some raspberry plants from Miller
Nurseries in Canandaigua, NY.  They sent along a fact sheet from the
Univ. of Massachusetts that has some info that may be of interest to hop
growers:

  Sites for raspberries should be free from perennial weeds, have good
  air drainage (preferably a hillside), and have adequate moisture.
  [sound familiar? JMG]  To avoid problems with verticillium wilt, do
  not plant raspberries where potatoes, tomatoes, peppers (solanaceous
  crops), or strawberries have been grown.

According to Beach in "Homegrown Hops," hops are susceptible to
verticillium wilt so I was wondering if this advice would apply to hops
as well.  I was thinking of planting hops this summer (and my boys have
just planted some tomato and pepper seeds indoors) so I would like to
hear if anyone has any first hand experience.  If not, I think I will
apply the raspberry advice to my hops!

With hops and raspberries, our yard may get a 4-star rating in the
Japanese beetle touring guide.

- --
Jim Grady             
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 07:27:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu>
Subject: Hop Utilization

In HBD 1377 Keith MacNeal writes:
>...the extract brewer is most certainly watering the wort down *after* 
>fermentation.

Not to argue with you Keith but I don't beleive this to be the case.  Most 
extract brewers are boiling anywhere between 3 and 10 lbs of extract in 1.5
to 3 gallons of water.  They are then diluting the resulting wort in the 
primary to bring total volume up to 5 - 5.5 gallons.  This is done prior to 
pitching the yeast so they are definately not watering the wort down after 
fermentation.  

This would be an interesting thing to try.  Has anyone ever tried fermenting
wort from an extract boil before increasing the volume?  Are there yeasts out
there that would live in this sort of environment?  

On to another issue on hops utilization....  I recently switched from all 
extract to partial mashs and have increased my boil from the standard 2 gallons
to the 3 - 3 1/2 gallon range.  Although my OG's seem to have fallen a little
I am finding that I *do not* get the same utilization and in fact it seems to 
have fallen.  Any explaination for this?  Of course this is finding is based
solely on tasting the resulting brews (several have been repeats of extract 
brews and the hops have remained the same>.  BTW I have been following Mark's
formulas with a lot of good results.

TIA

Doug.  <lukasik_d at sunybroome.edu>

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 12:01:31 +0100
From: steve_t at fleurie.inria.fr (Steven Tollefsrud)
Subject: Canning Wort/Eggwhites/DME Priming/fruit-in-beer


From: Eric Wade...
>...is wort acidic enough to keep botulism at bay without pressure 
>canning?

I'm no food science expert but if wort were acidic enough to keep
wild nasties (yeasts, bacteria) at bay, wouldn't it also keep the
cultured, domesticated sort at bay, too? Alternatively, if wort were
ideally suited for cultured yeast to thrive in, why wouldn't it be
just as well suited for the nasties to survive in too? There was a
similar thread to this a couple of years ago on HBD and it was 
established that Botulin produced toxins will remain in the wort
even if the wort is boiled, so don't count on high temps to make
it safe if it has been infected. It seems to me that it would be
safer to not count on acidity to keep your canned wort Botulism free,
and use pressure canning.

From: aaron.banerjee at his.com
>Say, has anyone ever tried clairifying wine with egg whites?

I toured several wineries in Bordeaux last summer and saw this
in practice. Most Bordeaux wines are clarified this way, using
egg whites whipped up into a marengue-like lather and added to
the oak barrels that the wine is aged in for a couple of years.

It made me curious why this wasn't practiced in the beer industry.
My guess is the gas in the beer would make a tremendous mess of
the egg whites.

From: katanka at aol.com
>Re:Dry Malt Priming...The resultant carbonation seems much better
>(as well as head retention(?!?)) you can adjust the amount as needed,
>but keep the 2 to 1 ratio.

I switched to DME priming last year and will never go back to sugar.
Table sugar will leave a cidery bite to your beer, while corn sugar
doesn't. Priming with DME definitely gives a sturdier head and more
body, and you can proudly claim that you have an "all malt" beer.
Because of the difference in molecular structure, you will need to
use 2 times as much DME as you would sugar. If you use 3/4 cups of
sugar, use 1.5 cups DME, or enough to raise the SG by 5 degrees or
less, depending on the beer style. Boiling the the DME in a couple
of cups of water will ensure that the DME is evenly distributed
(no globs of DME on the bottom), and kills nasties. I once primed
without mixing with water first and my beer reacted to the crystals
by violently foaming over. I tried closing the priming container
(a cornelius keg) but the restricted exit turned it into a beer jet,
spraying about 3 gallons over the kitchen ceiling, walls, and me.
(my wife was not impressed).

From: Christopher Alan Strickland
>Just wanted some opinions.  I made the blackberry stout with 60 oz
>of frozen blackberries.  My OG was 1.061, after 3 days I racked with
>an SG of 1.027.  After 5 days the SG was still 1.027 so I bottled.
>It's 12 days latter and the beer tastes a little sour (not going
>bad sour, just sour).

I experimented with adding fruit (raspberries) to ale and discovered
the effects of CO2 scrubbing the hard way. Adding the fruit to the
wort at the beginning of the ferment caused most of the fruit essences
to disappear with the CO2 and left a tangy ale with only a memory of
the 5lbs of raspberries and a reddish color. Just like with dry-hopping,
adding fruit after the most active ferment leaves most of the essences
in the beer and, because of the yeast attenuation when the alcohol is
higher, there is more residual sugar from the fruit. BTW, this is how
the Belgians do it with Kriek Lambics: the cherries are added to the
aging barrels AFTER the beer is fermented.

Steve Tollefsrud
Valbonne, France
e-mail: steve_t at fleurie.compass.fr

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:15:02 -0500 (EST)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: First MASH / LAGER


Greetings all !! There has been some discussion on diving into all grain for 
the first time. All I can say is DO IT. I racked my first all grain to 
secondary today and I thought my experiences may help others take the plunge.
First, I've been told you should never go to all grain until you master 
extracts and can replicate batches. As I do this for fun and I'm not AB, I
really have never tried to make the exact same brew twice - the fun is in
variety. Am I a master at extracts - NO No no - how do you spell Zyamogy. 

This is how it went:
I made 1000ml of starter with wyeast chechpilsner (spelling?). I new it
was going to be a great batch because my stopped got stuck in the flask and
I cracked the flask getting it out. I transfered the go juice to a new flask
and somehow avoided major nastie contamination.
I pulled out my trusty 5 gal porcelin (yes 5 gallon) brew pot, splashed in
a couple gallons of Chesapeakes finest pipe rotting tap water, a pinch of
gypsum, and happily tossed in 10lbs of my selected grains. Beware the dust
cloud.
I fired up the stove (gas) and stirred my coldren of mush up to the protein
rest.
I lit the fires again to get to conversion temp and stired frequently to
avoid scorching. The mush appeared a little thick, so I dumped in another
gallon of h2o and let it do it's thing.
I added heat one more time to 170 and ladled the sludge into my gott cooler.
(A $1 cheap plastic collander trimmed to fit made a great false bottom.)
I drained out and recirculated about a gallon of wort to set the filter bed.
I then drained most of the liquid from the tun back into the brew pot. 
I alternatly added 170 degree water an inch or two above the grain and  
drained it off into the brewpot until my 5 gallon pot was full and another 
gallon pot was also full.
I then happily boiled, hopped, and cooled as usual. 
The gravity ended up at 1.040 - a little low for ten pounds of gain but who
cares. 
Then it happened - I tasted the Wort. It actually tasted better than some
finished beers I have tasted. Saying that I was psyched would have been
an under statement. As this is a lager (my first attempt here too) it will
take a while for me to experience the full fruits of my labor but if the 
tastes at primary and secondary are any indication, I don't expect this batch
to have to sit around in the bottles too long.
Yes I did relax and have several homebrews.
Yes it did take about five hours - Boy did time fly.

One warning !!! As I finished up about 2:30am, I did not feel like hauling
the spent grains outside. I decided that my 1.5hp garbage grinder could 
handle the job for me. It did - the plumming did not. It actually clogged
a three inch line. Climbing under a house at 3:00 in the morning is not
the model method of RHAHB.

Cheers and get "grainin"


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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 5:21:28 PST
From: DJM1%CRPTech%DCPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: ...no subject...

Sean Rooney said:
>I'm considering buying a Party Pig (Plastic keg with an expanding bag to
>fill deadspace) and a Carbonator (quick release fitting for 2L pop
>bottles).  Does anybody have any experience with these products?

I have been using the Carbonator for a few months now, IT'S GREAT! My friends 
love it also, as they now don't have to come to my house to try the ol' 
Homebrew.....I have not had any problems with it. You have to transfer your 
beer over a few days earlier than you want to take it somewhere to allow force 
carbonation. I just wish I came up with the idea myself!
I also have a Party Pig that I haven't had a chance to use yet....I just 
always put all the beer into one of my kegs. I think that it would be ideal 
for a Barleywine, or some other small batch.

Standard Disclaimer: I don't have nothin' to do with any of the above 
mentioned products, I just wish I did............

Daniel Meaney
DJM1 at PGE.COM



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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 08:37:16 EST
From: sims at scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: re: animals & beer

>>Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 10:34:29 EST
>>From: AYLSWRTH at MANVM2.VNET.IBM.COM
>>Subject: re:Animal products???
>>
>> As I have pointed out in alt.beer, the real problem here is that it
>> is difficult for people to find out whether their favorite beer(s)
>> use animal products.  Breweries do not have to list any ingredients,
>> and even if they did, it is unclear whether the FDA would count a
>> clarifying agent as an "ingredient" anyway.  


 actually, it is *absolutely* clear to anyone who does this
 commerically just what the rules are:

 You *must* apply to the BATF folks for a label approval for each
 alcohol-containing prodcut you produce. Ask Grants's what happens if
 you make any mistakes.

 The label is tied to a specific RECIPE. You must list all the
 ingredients used, and a basic cookbook-type approach to what you do
 to the ingredients.

 According to the "expert" for labeling that I asked, there are
 numerous approved clarifiers, and they (nor anything else "not
 remaining in the final product" need NOT be listed on the label.

jim

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 10:09:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Big brewing

Norm writes:
> Subject: Mega brewing/Specialty Grains/Eis
> 
> Jeff Franes writes about industrial brewers:
> 
Jeff was discussing hop utilization, but I'd like to diverge a bit.  Assuming
> the large brewers brew high gravity worts, and dilute *after* fermentation,
> try to follow this.  They must use a relatively large amount of grain to
> create these high gravity worts, which means they have relatively large
> mash/lauter tuns.  Then they must boil down this relatively large volume of
> water, which means they have relatively large boilers.  They then ferment
> this concentrated wort in relatively small fermenters.  

THis is where the assumptions fail. I would presume that they actually 
use enormous fermenters, which hold the results of 4 mash cycles.  For
bigger breweries, it is quite common to brew several times to fill one
fermenter. 

Best,
Jim Busch

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 10:43:09 EST
From: carlsont at GVSU.EDU (TODD CARLSON)
Subject: Re: specialty grain mashing

          Mike asked about his Papazian pale ale problem ("sediment of
          some kind").  This sound like the same problem I had with
          this recipe which I attributed to starch in the unmashed
          toasted barley (this was an all extract recipe).  This
          relates to the recent discussion on which specialy grains
          should or should not be mashed.  Is Papazian wrong (gasp) in
          using unmashed toasted malt?  There are a lot of different
          malts out there that I would like to experiment with but I
          am not sure how to use them and have had difficulty finding
          information about them.  So could we compile a list?  Vote

               must mash
               should mash
               shouldn't mash
               don't mash
               doesn't matter

          on

          crystal malt
          dextrine (carapils) malt
          belgian aromatic malt (what is this?)
          special B malt
          buiscit malt
          victory malt (same as toasted malt?)
          roasted malt
          raosted barley
          black malt
          chocolate malt
          vienna malt
          munich malt
          other

          also for the mashing grains, do they provide enzymes?

          PS - I figured out BTW and IMHO, but what is RIMS?

          PSS - What's an easymasher (TM)?

          todd
          carlsont at gvsu.edu

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 07:35:00 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Kegging

>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Peakall <belew at netcom.com> writes:

Jonathan> I read the excellent article on kegging in the archives at
Jonathan> Stanford, but still have a few questions.

Jonathan> First, does anyone know a good place to purchase fittings
Jonathan> and so on for the kegs in the San Francisco Bay Area? What
Jonathan> about places to test and fill your co2 tanks? Can anyone
Jonathan> tell me the name of a good book on kegging, or direct me to
Jonathan> a good source of materials?

Best source is mail order.  If you find any local homebrew store
carrying fittings, you will find they are about 25% or more higher
than mail order.  Good mail order sources are 

Keg Parts:

BrauKunst 1-800-972-2728

Foxx Equipment Co. (800) 821-2254


Taps, beer fridges, bar supplies:

Superior Products 800-328-9800


If you have any more detailed questions, ask away, either through HBD,
or directly.  I am editing the kegging FAQ and until it is out, it is
my duty to extract all info from the materials to answer people's
questions.  That will also give me an incentive to get it done.  B-}

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California


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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 11:45:54 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: chill theory

     Let's talk chiller theory.
     
     Now, after the boil, I chill by dunking my boil pot in a sink 
     filled with ice-water. Why? Because Charlie told me to. It does 
     speed up the cooling, but does it do anything else? Does my beer 
     like it better?
     
     Or, to put it another way, Charlie also says I should probably 
     have a wort-chiller for all-grain "advanced" brewing (but doesn't 
     explain why). So I'm thinking about making one. But I'd like to 
     know why before investing the time and money.
     
     In fact, I'm wondering why I shouldn't just run the boiling wort 
     directly to my plastic fermenter and skip the ice-water dunk. I 
     can do it without splashing or at least a minimum of aeration and 
     also with a minimum chance of polluting the wort with some bad 
     bugs. For cooling, I can let it sit overnight, sealed up in the 
     fermenter (which is what I often do anyway). What, if anything, 
     am I losing (besides time, which is not a major concern, as long 
     as my supply is a couple cases ahead of demand)?
     
     I can understand why the breweries chill rapidly--not wanting to 
     occupy their equipment longer than necessary. Are we homebrewers 
     just slavishly imitating the commercials? (If chiller theory is 
     covered in some book somewhere, please steer me toward it.)
     
     Cheers,
     Ron Dwelle (dweller at gvsu.edu)

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 09:14:28 PST
From: steve_kenshulo at csufresno.edu (Steve Kenshalo)
Subject: Homemade burners, and a few other things...

Fellow Brewers:

As the first step in the construction of my all-grain brewing
setup, I have removed the burner from an old hot-water heater.
After brushing up on my welding skills, I mounted it in a frame
about four inches below the top of the frame. Although the hot
water heater was rated for natural gas, I brazed a piece of 1/4"
pipe to the tube leading to the burner. To this pipe I connected a
piece of shop air hose (The type you might use to connect a
compressed air tool to the shop air), to a fitting that screws into
a 20 pound propane tank. The is no pressure regulator involved,
other than a dedicate hand on the tank-mounted valve.

     I was surprised how well it worked. Although very sensitive,
the tank-mounted valve works fine for regulating gas flow to the
burner. The air hose does not seem to get hot at all. The tube
leading to the burner is long enough to place the air hose a safe
distance away from the hot zone.

     The flame seems to burn well on propane. I thought I would
have to drill out the air holes in order to get good combustion.
The flame, when burning at the hottest temp I feel safe with, is 4
to 5 inches long, with about equal parts blue and orange flame. The
pot has just a little bit of soot on it, but not enough to worry
about. Could this thing benefit from enlarging the air holes below
the burner? I think the rule is propane requires twice as much air
than natural gas. The current holes are about 1/2 in diameter. That
means the new holes should be twice the area. The current area,
 .5*3.14 is 1.57. Of course double that is 3.14. Since 1*3.14=3.14
the new holes should be 1" in diameter. Is this right? It seems way
too simple. It also seems way too big. I would think a 1" hole
would flow a lot more that twice the air of a 1/2" hole. Doesn't
matter, however, because the is not enough metal in the frame to
allow 1" holes anyway. (There are four 1/2" holes around the base
of the burner.)

     For a kettle, I cut the top off of a SS (Stainless Steel) keg
with a jig saw. The keg was mush easier to cut than I thought. On
the side of the kettle, as close to the bottom as possible, I TIG
welded a piece of SS pipe. This was the first time I had used a TIG
welder, and it was a difficult weld. The pipe was much thicker than
the walls of the keg. Not to mention I kept touching the tungsten
to the part while I was welding. I even got a healthy jolt when I
touched the welding rod to the electrode. I was wearing no gloves,
and the shock went right through my chest. Ouch! Next time I would
just silver solder a piece of brass pipe to the keg.

     I have used this setup twice. It works quite well. The first
time I used it, I had no lid, and the boil was not as vigorous as
I would have liked. The second time, I used the cover from an old AT
clone as a lid, and it boiled over 5 gallons in 35-40 minutes. I
was planning on making a tight fitting lid for the kettle, but I
decided a flat piece of metal would work better. If I cut a dome
shaped piece of sheet aluminum, I can slide it back and fourth
across the top of the kettle (to change the size of the vent)
during boiling.

     All of this gave me a fairly bitchin' setup with almost no
cash outlay. All of the parts I either got for free or had laying
around, except for the SS pipe. It cost me $4.50. However, it was
a lot of work. If I was not able to get out of my 3 hour CAD/CAM
class to go weld up beer equipment, it would have been easier to go
buy a cajun cooker or something like that. Soon I am going to cut
the top off of my other keg and make a mash-lauder tun with a
copper manifold.

     This post is longer than I planned, so I will stop here. Thank
you for any advise I receive regarding the air holes in the burner.

Steve Kenshalo
skenshul at csufresno.edu

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 10:31:12 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Slamming? Not/Scotch Ale IBUs/new digest?

Bob Regent writes:

>You may or may not agree with Marks comments, but at least try to read his
>messages correctly before slamming him.

In defense of myself, and others who have been discussing the boil gravity vs.
hop utilization issue:  I don't think anyone has done any "slamming" of Mark
in this thread.  There has been some polite disagreement, but I haven't seen
hide nor hair of a flame.  Don't make this something it isn't.  Also, I think
it is pretty clear at this point what Mark has been claiming.  What is not
clear, at least to me, whether his assertions are accurate.  Glenn Tinseth's
(admittedly small piece of) data seems to contradict Mark.

**

Mark Worwetz asks about Scottish Ales, and says that award winning SAs fall
in the 30-50 IBU range.  I don't know what these numbers are from but the AHA
lists them something like 9-20 IBU, which is very low indeed.  Of course, it
is entirely possible that BJCP judges like hops and if the beer is good,
well, it wins the prize, regardless of the rules.

**

>From the "Credit where Credit is Due" Department, Rob Reed wrote:

>Some guys wrote an article in Zymurgy awhile back that touted
>benefits from adding darker grains to the mash at 'mash-out', but
>I believe the point was the preservation of melanoidins for the
>enhancement of "smoothness"  and rounder flavors.

Those "guys" were Micah Millspaw, late of the world famous HBD (he hasn't
gacked; he's a pro now, and off the digest), and Bob Jones, a current
contributor to HBD.  Thanks guys!

**

Mark Evans wants us to make a Hop Utilization FAQ and to quit wasting his
time every day with discussions about it.  Mark, if you've read any of these
threads, you'd realize that there is absolutely no concensus on the thing,
because of inadequate data, conflicting data, and the never ending "personal
experience".  If the issue is ever resolved, it'll undoubtedly go into the
Hops FAQ, but until then, I believe it is a very appropriate topic for this
forum.  Buy a new spacebar, this thing isn't going away.

Norm
npyle at n33.stortek.com

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Date: 21 Mar 94 17:26:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Utilization/Broken bottles

Jim writes (quoting Glen)--
>> The HPLC showed that the utilization in the kettle for the high 
>> gravity wort was 20%, for the low gravity wort it was 42%. This 
> 
>That is fascinating data, especially for people brewing bitters, as
>I believe there is no printed "homebrewer" info that implies numbers
>above 30%, yet this seems to be the results in brewing a bitter with
>out diluting.  No wonder Phils bitters are so different from mine,
>I do high gravity preferment dilution, he doesnt. 

Before anyone gets confused by these discussions, I'd like to point out
that this data is utilization "in the kettle."   There will be losses
during fermentation.  In the end, I'll bet that the high-gravity wort
utilization will be down to about 15% and the low-gravity wort util will
be down to about 30%, which would be in-line with the literature.  What
Rager's formulas dealt with were approximations of IBUs in the finished
beer.  They accounted for some variables and ignored others.  I've
successfully used them in my beers.  I would be open to using new formulas
as then become available.  Quantification is what we really need from the
research.  How much the losses are affected by yeast, geometry, etc., is
still unknown.

**********
As yet, I have not broken a bottle with my capper (an Omega Deluxe bench
capper) nor with my previous capper (a Jet, two handled, non-adjustable).
This, after 150+ (bottled) batches of beer.  I've used bottles from virtually
every brewery that uses non-twist-off bottles.  I have perhaps 25-30 cases
of bottles and I keep reusing them.  I add new bottles to my collection
whenever I drink a commercial beer that comes in a non-twist-off, and lose
bottles to competitions, so there is some turnover.  Thomas wrote, quoting
someone:

>". . . most of the bottles I break are returnables . . . Bottles
>like Guinness or Anchor Steam are a superior design to returnables,
>and if I were to avoid a particular design it would be
>non-returnables shaped like returnables . . . I would blame the
>bottles rather than the capper."
> 
>(I should point out that the above comment is particularly
>controversial - which is why I included it - since I think most
>homebrewers use long neck bottles, both refillables and non-
>refillables.  Perhaps the Guinness/Anchor steam shape is preferable
>for non-refillables, as he implies?  Any more data points?)

Although I've never broken one, the Guinness bottles are the thinnest
glass of all the bottles I've used, and therefore I would not say that
they are superior.  Incidentatlly, the Orval, Fullers, bar-bottles
and the old-style Mackesons/Whitbread are the thickest glass.  I think
that with the two-handled cappers, shape plays more of a role in the
ease/difficulty of capping.  The ease/difficulty is important because
as the difficulty of closure increases, so does the chance of putting
a lateral stress on the neck of the bottle.  With the Omega Deluxe
and other bench cappers (which, by their design, cannot put a lateral
stress on the neck of the bottle, unless you don't center it), it doesn't
matter...  from Thomas Hardy nips to Champagne magnums, no problems.  It
still is possible to "push down too hard" with a bench capper, but as I
said before, I've yet to break a bottle while capping.  I hope it hasn't
been just luck, because if it was, this post is sure to have made it
run out ;^).

Al.

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 10:45:10 -0700
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: Re: Call for Judges, AHA NHC Denver


My confused fingers typed the wrong days for the first round
judging of the NHC in Denver.  Corrected information is:

   Judging for the western region of the 1994 AHA National Homebrew
   Competition will be held in Denver on Saturday and Sunday, April
   30 and May 1.

================================    Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey                       Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu    Fort Collins, CO  80523
================================    +1 303 491 0630

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: blue ice/yeast freezing

Coyote writes that one might use blue ice to buffer the temperature changes
of a frost-free freezer for yeast storage.  I tried this once with some
Chimay cultures.  After 3 months I could not revive them.  Just a data point.

Jeremy Bergsman   jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu

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Date: 21 Mar 94 18:02:49 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Pike Place Pale Ale


My buddy Carlo made it over to my house on Saturday with his usual
handful of "imports" for us to sample. In the array was a bottle of
Pike Place Pale Ale, unavailable to us up in Canada. I was intrigued
by the intense chocolate flavor, where does this come from? It
doesn't appear that there's chocolate malt in the beer, we speculate
it's either the Maris Otter malts or the yeast strain. The bottle we
had was brewed in Vermont. Does anyone have any comments, re the
chocolate flavor?

 ...Glenn Anderson
GANDE at SLIMS.ATTMAIL.COM


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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 12:59 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Hop Utilization/Wort Chilling

Hey Folks,

I realize that I don't have the detailed technical knowledge or years of
experience in brewing that some (such as Mark Garetz and Co.), but I saw
something this weekend that makes want to throw my two cents in.

I just bought a 24-qt. SS pot for brewing, and gave it a whirl.  In the
past, I've brewed in a 15-qt. ALUM pot, using extract and speciality grains.
This weekend, while using my mother-of-all-pots, I noticed something
different about the hops.  When I put hops in the small pot, they would
gather at the top of the boil, with only some of them really "mixing it up"
with the wort.  I would periodically push this mass of hops down, but they
never really mixed well.  When brewing a highly hopped ale (like SNPA), I
could barely get the aroma hops mixed in before it was time to turn the heat
off.  

With "momma", I now use 4 gallons of water in my boil, versus 1.5 with the
little pot.  My hops all mix in!!!  None on the top, and they roll and roll,
like they're on a roller-coaster.

Is this another aspect of hop utilization that affects beginners?  Very high
gravity worts created by your typical novice homebrewer's equipment won't
mix hops well??  I always use fresh and plug hops, should people who use
small brewpots use pellets, just to insure that the hops "touch" the wort?

I also suspect that one of may batches that had too much hop flavor was the
result of insufficient isomerization due to the hops not getting hot and
mixed in with the wort very well.  What say you, great fonts of wisdom?

BTW, I made a wort chiller (and pre-chiller) using a 50-foot roll of 3/8" 
copper tubing, and the instructions/ideas from wort_chillers.faq -- it
worked great!!!  Two thumbs up, highly recommended!! E-mail me for details
if you are curious.

Happy Brewing to all,

Jack Skeels
JSKEELS at MCIMAIL.COM


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Date: 21 Mar 1994 13:50:09 -0500
From: "Stephen Schember" <Stephen_Schember at terc.edu>
Subject: Brit. Beerfest

                      Subject:                             
Time:  1:40 PM
  OFFICE MEMO         Brit. Beerfest                       
Date:  3/21/94
Could someone please send me or post the location and dates of
the British beer Fest this Aug. ?
 -TIA
Steve
stephen_schember at terc.edu



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1378, 03/22/94