FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Beer Irradiation (Louis K. Bonham)
  HDM Belgian Malts (Dan Schowaller)
  Peat smoked malt info (Alan Pagliere)
  Lodo Brewfest (John Adams)
  Kooker/keg diameter (Btalk)
  Maddening Infuriation (Reanimator)
  controller (Glen H)
  CA Brewpubs and micros (BrewerBob)
  Can't Get Protein To Settle (Phil Brushaber)
  Mini-kegs (Douglas R. Jones)
  Fresh Hops- Quantities (COYOTE)
  Gott Spigot Puzzle (Mark)
  Recipies (timothy m robic)
  Re: dishwasher sanitation (Douglas R. Jones)
  Mills (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
  Non-Alcoholic Beer (ERIC WALTER)
  Wort Chiller Construction (Terry Terfinko)
  Germany Trip, 1994 (Norm Hardy)
  Wyeast 1098 gritties (Scott Keegan)
  Zymurgy (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  correction (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  IBUs in SUDSW (David Draper)
  HBU vs IBU (PAULDORE)
  peat smoked malt (Bob Fawcett)
  good news with the beer machine (kain)
  BEER: Genetics (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  HB people  at  UIUC (John Isenhour)
  Maris Otter barley (Allan Rubinoff)
  Re:How to pronounce Celis? ("Tom Tomazin")
  Spirit of Belgium update ("Phillip Seitz")
  RE: propane cookers (Brew Free Or Die  30-Aug-1994 1020)
  Elderberry Wine Request (Roger Grow)



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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:51:54
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Beer Irradiation

In reviewing the available literature regarding shelf life, etc.,
besides aeration/oxidation the key problem facing small scale
commercial brewers who bottle their wares is low level
contamination; i.e., it doesn't show up appreciably if the beer is
consumed soon after bottling, but *really* shows up if the beer is
kept for a week or more at or above room temperature.  The current
solutions to address this problem are, of course, well known: (1)
pasteurize the beer (which tends to leave a "cooked" note in the
finished product), (2) microfiltration (which can strip out flavor
from the finished product), and/or (3) "Coors treatment" (i.e.,
distributors who keep the beer cold at all points between the
brewer and the retailer; great idea but probably impossible for a
small scale operations with no economic sway over the
distributor). 

It occurs to me that there is another, relatively available
method: irradiation.  Conceptually, why could a small operation not
simply have the product nuked after packaging (or even after bottle
conditioning) with a sufficient dose of gamma rays to insure that the
beer contains no living organisms?  Such treatment would not, I'm
told (by Drs. Fix and Farnsworth), affect any flavor components of
the beer. 

Leaving aside the marketing headaches that such a process would
entail (I'm well aware of the furor that food irradiation
creates), what technical problems would in-bottle irradiation
present?  What dosage of gamma rays would be required, and what
kind of equipment would be needed?  Is it even commercially
practical to generate sufficient gamma rays for sterilization
purposes without using radioactive materials (I know hospitals use
small sterilizers that do not, but are larger units used /
commercially viable)?  Etc., etc., etc.

To conserve bandwidth, please send your thoughts / comments on this
to lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net and I'll post a summary in a few days.


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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:31:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dan Schowaller <dschowal at comp.uark.edu>
Subject: HDM Belgian Malts

Any info on HMD Belgian Malts (particularly in relation to DWC malts) would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

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Date: 28 Aug 94 12:17:20 EDT
From: Alan Pagliere <71201.1047 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Peat smoked malt info

I didn't know that my question about peat smoked malt would generate so much 
interest or response. Below is a compilation of information I got as answers 
via e-mail. I must admit that I have not yet had the time to look over the 
last few days' HBDs for responses there. (Except for the last piece of 
information, I do not mention names of the contributors of the info since they
sent me private e-mail.)

Here are suppliers that are known to have peat smoked malt available. Some 
may, some may not, do mail order.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.

Larry McCloskey
South Bay Homebrew Supply

Beer & Wine Crafts
450 Fletcher Parkway
El Cajon, CA.  
(619)447-9191

Beer Crafts
950 West San Marcos, Blvd. Suite I
San Marcos, CA
(619)591-9991

William's Brewing
San Leandro, CA

Steinbarts
Portland OR

Evergreen Brewing Supply
Bellevue WA

The Frozen Wort
Charlie Olchowski
(413) 773-5920
- ------------------------

One person mentioned that Munton & Fison makes a peat smoked malt but didn't 
know if it was available anywhere. Most mentioned Hugh Baird & Sons peat 
smoked 2-row Scottish malt.

Some people warned of phenolic beers being produced by the use of peat smoked 
malt. Others simply warned of using too much. Quantities mentioned for a 
5-gallon batch were: 
        5% of grain. 1-2% of grain.
        4 oz produced a smokiness that was quite in the background. 8 oz. 
produced a pronounced smokiness. Big leap here ... I'll try 6 oz.

Another mentioned that Wyeast has a new Scotch Ale yeast that is supposed to 
have a smoky character.

Someone said that Portland Brewing in Portland, OR, used it in a beer. They 
used about 1%.

I must share the following from a John Pedlow (name necessary for proper 
credit):
"i also enjoy islay malt on occasion.  i flavor my brew with a bit of islay 
(maybe a 1/4 to 1/3 shot per 12 oz bottle) at drinking time.
i had not considered adding an appropriate amount prior to bottling."

That's it for now. Thanks to all. Hope this information is useful.


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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 10:25:29 -0600
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Lodo Brewfest

I attended the LoDo Brewfest Saturday August 27 where 30 Colorado brewer's
brought out their best beers.

The event was held in historic lower downtown Denver walking distance
from 4 brewpubs and the soon to be opened Coor's Field.  Coors was giving
tours for the new ballpark first come first serve but 200 people showed
up for 100 slots as soon as the gates opened.

I focused my attentions on brews I have not had prior primarily pale ales
and wheats.


Anheuser-Busch's
Elk Mountain Amber Ale
   Not bad for a Bud.  A light but malty ale that's light in color and
   taste.


Breckenridge Brewery and Pub's
Ball Park Brown Ale
   The names right since Breckenridge is directly across the street from the
   Rockies' Coors Field.
   
   A malty and a bit heavy for a brown but a very nice beer for a hot day.


Champion Brewing Company's
Champion Buckwheat
   This was claimed to be a light bodied wheat with a slight raspberry
   flavor.  I found it to be malty and hoppy for wheat and I was unable
   to detech any raspberry flavor.  Disappointing.


Hubcap Brewery's
Vail Pale Ale
   A very nice PA with a spicy taste and aroma (ginger???).  Not too
   hoppy even though it was claimed to be for hop heads.


Left Hand Brewing Company's
Juju Ginger Ale
  This is supposed to be a gingered wheat but I the amount of ginger was
  small and it was a bit too hoppy for my taste in wheats.  Given these
  guys were next door to Hubcap's booth, I wonder if the kegs got mixed up.


Mountain Sun Pub and Brewery's
Kind Ale
   A nice hop nose and flavor.  Not overly hopped but a very nice IPA.


Oasis Restraurant and Brewery's
Capstone ESB
   A very nice hop aroma and a malty tasting beer.  I really enjoyed
   this bitter.


Phantom Canyon Brewing Company's
Cascade Amber Ale
   A little disappointing since this was to be high hopped ale and
   Phantom's IPA was my best of show at the Colorado Brewer's Festival in
   June.
   
   A bit harsh from the bittering hops, not the hop flavor I was looking for
   and malty.


Silverplume Brewing Company's
Amber Ale
   A sweet aroma and a nice malty flavor profile.  A very nice Scottish
   ale.  This beer was my personal best of show.


Tabernash Brewing Company's Weiss
Wynkoop Brewing Company's Railyard Ale
   These are two of my three favorite Denver brews.  Whenever there
   served I must have one!

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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 94 09:15:14 EDT
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: Kooker/keg diameter

Guy McConnell notes that keg diameter and outdoor cooker pot support ring
diameter appear the same.

This is the case with my set up using a King Kooker. the diameters couldn't
be a better match. 
I was concerned at first, but it stays put especially when keg has liquid in
it. Note that I use a converted quarter keg right now. I have thought about
having tabs welded on to eliminate any chance of slipping. Then I thought
about using hose clamps on the ring with the screw casing part of the clamp
positioned to stop the keg from moving. So far i haven't done either!
Maybe one of these days...
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz,Binghamton,NY <btalk at aol.com>


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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 16:58:16 +0930 (CST)
From: zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au (Reanimator)
Subject: Maddening Infuriation

Aargh!  I'm so irritated!  The two batches of beer that I bottled two weeks
ago both taste absolutely disgusting!  I can't understand it...  I was hoping
maybe some of you HBD'ers could help me out - here's the details:

Batch 1: Pale Ale
At bottling:  Tasted great coming out of the fermenter.  Mild bitterness,
              great spicy hop flavour and good aroma.
Now:  Almost no bitterness or hop flavour, overwhelming sweet honey flavour.
      Is this the dreaded diacetyl?

Batch 2: Old Peculier
At bottling:  Tasted good, nice roasted/bitter flavour, like coffee.
Now:  Totally nauseating and undrinkable, flavour described as "off chocolate".
      Tasted so bad that I couldn't drink any more beer for the rest of the
      night!

I don't understand how they can have tasted so good coming out of 4 weeks
in the secondary and now taste so awful!  Bottles were clean and sanitized,
and there are no visible signs of infection.  Carbonation levels are fine.
Any ideas what has gone wrong?  Failing that, does anyone know a use for
83 750mL bottles of undrinkable beer? <sniff> :(
- --
                            zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au
                      http://www.cs.adelaide.edu.au/~zoz/

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Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: glenh at iceonline.iceonline.com (Glen H)
Subject: controller

Hi all... Bought an old freezer recently for making beer. Needed a controller
so I went to one of the local refrigeration supply wholesale place (my company

is in the business, so we have an account) and explained what I needed. After 
looking at several other options, they recommended a relatively new product by

Johnson Controls, the A319 line voltage electronic temperature control (about 
$55 Canadian - I would guess about $30-$35 US). Model#A319ABC-24-01.
 
Seems just about perfect for brewing purposes. The rest of this will be
pretty much quotes from the brochure and specs.
 
"Because it uses electronic circuitry, it will provide longer, trouble-free
service. And thanks to its solid-state sensor, it can be remote mounted,
without the need for ambient compensation or the worry about capillary
lengths or breakage."
 
"Plus, its line voltage capability eliminates the need for a separate
transformer - saving installation time and reducing costs."
 
The model I purchased has a temperature range from -20F to 100F(-30C to 38C),
with + or - 1F tolerance at midscale. The setpoint tolerance at the extreme
ends of its range is + or - 3F. Pretty accurate in the range that brewers use.
The unit's adjustable differential can be set from 1F to 30F(0.5C to 17C). 
 
Input Voltage: 120 or 208/240 VAC, 50/60 Hz
 
Current Draw: 1.8 VA
 
Relay Electrical   SPDT                120V          208V          240V
  Ratings:         NO(NC)              NO(NC)        NO(NC)        NO(NC)
                   Horsepower:         1(0.25)hp     1(0.33)hp     1(0.5)hp   
                   Full Load Amps:     16(5.8)A      9.2(4.0)A     8.0(4.9)A
                   Locked Rotor Amps:  96(3)A        55(24)A       48(29)A
                   Non-Inductive Amps: 15(10)A       10(10)A       10(10)A
 
The unit comes with a NTC Thermistor Sensor with 8' leads (can be extended to 
800' if you want). It has a LED on the front that lights when the relay is
energized.
 
I've had it wired up to my freezer for a couple days now - works great!
 
Glen Hathaway glenh at icebox.iceonline.com

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Date: Sat, 27 Aug 94 19:41:47 EDT
From: BrewerBob at aol.com
Subject: CA Brewpubs and micros 

Request for information...

   My wife and I will be flying to San Francisco on Sept 16, staying for 10
days. Trip includes three days in Yosemite, hiking and seeking nature and
wilddlife.
   I have a list of more than fifty brewpubs/micros in the
SF/Napa/Sacremento/San Jose area. We would love to have the time to visit
them all but we will be lucky to get to two or three of them. I am asking the
folks on HBD to tell me about their favorite one or two via E-mail please, so
that we can try to get to them while we are there. 
   Is the Anchor tour worth the time? I have been to at least six micros
(including Yeungling in PA) and have enjoyed them all but they are starting
to repeat a bit.
   There is one in Sausalito that we might try for lunch while we are making
like tourists there. Ditto for Napa Valley, although I may be "wined out" and
not ready for a beer at that point.
   In any case, I would appreciate any input you can provide, even if it is
advice on staying away from one that isn't worth the trouble.
   Thanks in advance for the help. E-mail me at:

BrewerBob at aol.com
   


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Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 16:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Brushaber <pbrush at netcom.com>
Subject: Can't Get Protein To Settle


I have been experimenting with a couple of Dopplebocks over the last
two months and run into the same problem with both. After using Irish 
Moss and running through a counterflow chiller I get a great cold break. 
The proteins coagulate into stuff that looks like pasta. Problem is no 
matter how much I chill it I can't get the stuff to settle all the way to 
the bottom so I can rack the wort off the protein before pitching the yeast.

This has not been a problem with lighter beers. In those the hop 
material, protein etc. settles to the bottom in about a half hour and I 
am in business. With my first Dopplebock I gave up and carried the trub 
over into the fermenter. After 14 days at 45^, those protein beasties
are STILL hovering about 1 1/2" above the bottom of the fermenter.

Anybody have a solution? It it possible to filter this stuff out without 
oxegenating the beer? Thanks!

                                             pbrush at netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 11:31:14 CDT
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Mini-kegs

After bottling batch number 5 this weekend my wife decided that maybe there
was an easier approach. I suggested kegging and she thought this might be a
good alternative. So, the mini-keg controversy. I guerss I wasn't paying
real close attention. Does anyone have the thread in a form that is
e-mailable? Or how about a summary? And on a related note has anyone had
any real experience with the party pigs?

TIA,
Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of        |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'  |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin        |    (214)301-1307
                           |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 10:02:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Fresh Hops- Quantities

First a Question from the Coyote:

Is there any "REASON" other than storage durability to dry hops before
use?  It just occured to me that if I'm harvesting hops the same day I'm
going to use them- would they not be all that much FRESHER?

I know that there are chemical changes that occur due to the boiling
process,  i.e., solubilization of alpha acids...but what about drying?

My understanding is that drying reduces the water content such that 
hops won't look like spinach after freezer storage, and lengthens the 
live expectancy of stored hops.

Are there "green" volatiles that are reduced/removed during drying?
I know the aromatics change from "green plant material" to "hoppy essence"
after drying.  But is there something NECESSARY that happens.

Mr. Garetz?  ANything in your book on that?  I've generally found
Beach's book to be pretty worthless for most all hop questions I've
come up with.  

I noted yet ANOTHER pest as I harvested (the pulleys worked great BTW)
A fairly large green grub/caterpillar type bastard was found on several 
hops and had chewed the outer part of the cone's leaves.  Most of the
lupulin glands were unharmed, but I don't like creatures molesting my cones!
It's about as long as a pinky nail- when due for cutting- and flat on the
belly, kind of curved on the back. Almost oval shaped overall. 
Very green, and make a nice ooze when SQUISHED!!!!!

***
As for quanitites to used (as asked in last digest)

Go and get yourself a cheap diet scale ($5).  You're not going to know the
alpha acid content of your homegrowns, but you can probably guestimate
them to be a bit below what the average commercial range for that hop 
would be.

So exact weights aren't really going to tell you that much.
Espacially if you're using them for finishing hops (which I recommend!).
But if you have no experience with whole hops- then you're going to have
a harder time.  My rule of thumb (or palm as the case may be) is that a 
FULL handful (clutched) of PACKED hops is almost an ounce. That is
pack the hops down tight then reach in the back and grasp a handFUL.

Another estimation- about a packed cup of cones is about a half ounce.
YMMV.  But really- just get a diet scale. Small easy to use, cheap.
Worth having around!  

I can't imaging you COULD overdo finishing hops anyway (as long as you're
reasonable).

***
Oh yeah- as for force carbonating kegs:  No bad flavors come from it.
What a load of crap!  Who told you that.  I'm gonna flame them!

Set the regulator to 20 psi, attach the gas line to the liquid out on the keg
then set the keg on it's side. Shake rattle and roll baby!  When the 
gas stops moving, store cold overnight. Repressurize in the am. Sit for a day.
Then drop all pressure off the keg. Add back 2 psi, and drink.
Expect a few foamy glasses, then things will settle in.

Warning: Do not drop the pressure on the regulator with the gas line 
attached to the liquid out. Beer will move into the regulator. Not a good thing

I don't use priming sugar with this approach. You can (1/4-1/2 cup) but why?
CO2 will not add bad flavors to a beer, unless you CO2 tank is infected!

Brew on brethren of bee barley and vine-  The Coyote Has spoken.   :)


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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 08:41:24 -0600
From: Mark <markc at ssd.fsi.com>
Subject: Gott Spigot Puzzle

The Gott Spigot Puzzle has been solved!

Thanks for all your responses, but one solution stands a head
above the others.  I got all kinds of answers about rubber stoppers, 
bulkheads, brass angles, reducers, banded couplers,
barbed nipples (ouch!) and basically every possible PVC combination.
None of these solutions was expensive ($2-$5) but they all either
leaked or seemed too complicated.

Dominick Venezia bore this amazing solution:  Use what you've got. 

The spigot that's there doesn't leak (problem #1 solved).

With some pliers pull out the button on the spigot.  It's just pressed in.
Pull and it will come right out.  Behind will come a spring and a couple of
little washers.  On the inside will be a stopper like fitting.  Gather
all these pieces up and throw them away. Now you have no moving parts
(problem #2 solved).

Fill in the place where the thumb button was with silicone sealer
(food grade of course).  You can put a stopper (cork or rubber) in here
for something a little less permanent.

Put a small length of clear hose over the mouth of the spigot.  On the
hose put your hose clamp.

Voila!  Now that's cheap!

The only variation that may be necessary is I've seen some spigots have
a small ridge on the spigot mouth.  Take a sharp knive and carve this off
before putting the hose on.

Thanks Dominick!

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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 11:23:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: timothy m robic <tmrobic at unm.edu>
Subject: Recipies

Does antone have some good recipies for making small amounts of beer, 
particularly recipies for only 18 or 36 pints of beer?  If you do, please 
e-mail them to me: tmrobic at medusa.unm.edu.  Thanks!

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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 12:41:42 CDT
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Re: dishwasher sanitation

>===> Re:  dishwasher sanitation
>
>>Could anyone out there with experience and success in cleaning or
>>sanitizing bottles in a dishwasher share the technique?  While giving
>>this a little thought over the last few days I've pondered a couple
>>of questions:  Will Cascade (the soap, not the hops) and my
>>dishwasher set on "extra hot" do the trick?  Should I soak bottles in
>>a bleach solution beforehand and rinse and drip-dry in the dishwasher
>>afterward?  Can I use bleach in the dishwasher as a sanitizer or does
>>hot water eliminate the sanitizing qualities of the bleach (or is
>>there another sanitizing agent that works well with hot water)?  Or,
>>should I take my laboriously collected bottle supply (entailed
>>dedicated and exhaustive consumption efforts) to the recycling center
>>and buy a keg set-up?  I don't sense much interest out there so a
>>private e-mail response is fine.  
>

I also use the dishwasher. But I only use it for heated drying. The wife
like to use a rinse agent in out dishwasher (doesn't like spots) which is a
reputed head killer. I generally soak my bottles in Chlorinated TSP for a
few days (convenience), rinse, 2 minute soak in Iodophor, rinse in hot
water and hot dry in the dishwasher. I bottle right out of the dishwasher.

I also know folks who use the over. Wash the bottles place in cool oven.
Set oven for 250 and set to bake. When over reaches temp turn off and let
cool.

Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of        |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'  |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin        |    (214)301-1307
                           |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 29 Aug 94 17:45:00 GMT
From: fjdobner at ihlpa.att.com (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
Subject: Mills

Bill Cook from yesterday:

>........................ I should point out that Frank Dobner's comments
>in HBD#1507 regarding the superior crush he feels he is getting with his
>Corona sort of prove the point. If you can conclude from the review that 
>the Corona leaves you with sufficiently intact husks for a good sparge, 
>then the magazine has done a disservice to its readers.

If you read my original posting in the very same reference HBD# that
you cite in your post, you would find that nowhere in my statement 
did I ever say superior or better crush with a Corona (I will not
reprint my post here for sake of brevity). My point was
that at $80-$100+ dollars for rollers mills, I would not be
significantly happier than having spent $29.95 for my Corona. I would
further suggest for those coming into all-grain that the Corona is a cost
effective means for getting there. Do not listen to all the hoopla.
Buy only what you need. Enjoy your beer. 

Frank Dobner
Aurora, Illinois


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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 08:43:01 CST
From: ERIC WALTER <ewalter at mstar.com>
Subject: Non-Alcoholic Beer

          What's the process for making a non-alcoholic brew?  Can a
          homebrewer with a modest brewing setup pull it off?  As you
          probably know, the NA market is cluttered with third rate
          swill.  Thanks!

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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 19:25:26 EDT
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terry Terfinko)
Subject: Wort Chiller Construction

After reading HBD doc on building counterflow wortchillers, I began my 
project.  Purchased 20 feet of 5/8 inch od tubing and 25 feet of 3/8 inch od
tubing.  I straightened each roll of tubing out and with a little 
struggling I managed to insert the 3/8 inside of the 5/8.  Things were going
pretty well.  The next step was to recoil the tubing...... then it happened..
the ultimate oh no..... the tubing kinked... There I was holding $45. worth
of copper scrap.  Apparently there is a technique to coiling copper tubing.
I was using a cornelius keg as my mold. It started out ok but at about the
third turn the kink happened. I accepted the fact that I can't fix the 
kink, but was wondering if anyone had a way to coil tubing that was safe.
I guess I will write this one off as education.

terfintt at ttown.apci.com - Terry Terfinko
    

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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 17:51 PDT
From: norm at polstra.com (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Germany Trip, 1994

Having spent the last three weeks in Germany with family,
and having done some serious research on Altbeer and Kolsch
in the Nieder Rhine valley (Duesseldorf and Cologne), I
thought I'd throw out a few comments, not be too long
winded, and offer more tidbits as any readers might request.

(1) Altbeer and Kolsch are complex top fermented beers.
    They are lagered, after a week of warm fermentation, for
    up to a month to produce a very smooth, balanced, malty
    w/ dry finished beer.  The Alt is amber from the use of
    dunkel malt and the Kolsch is extremely pale in color.

(2) Pilsners make up 65% of the German market:  Warsteiner
    heads the list.  Alt beers are next at 6% and growing.
    Kolsch is next at 4% and wheat beers are about 2% and
    growing.  The myriad of other German styles make up the 
    remainder.  Non German made beers don't sell very well.
    A-B would have a HARD time getting their water to sell.

(3) Evaluating beers on tap in Germany is an exercise in
    tolerance as someone around you always smokes.  Smoke-
    free pubs in Germany?  No chance.  An outside restaurant
    or kneipe (pub) is the best chance if the air is clean.

(4) Beers made in Germany FOR Germany must meet the 1516
    Purity Law.  Karlsburg now owns Hannen Alt and pumps
    out their pilsner in the country.  Pretty bland compared
    to the wonderful stuff available anywhere.

(5) A city like Duesseldorf or Cologne is beer heaven:  
    as you walk through the Altstadt (Old City) where there
    is usually no car traffic allowed, you can easily
    sample the best tap beers in the world:  Veltins Pils,
    Fuechshen Alt, Mueller Kolsch, Pilsner Urquell, U Fleku
    Prague Dunkel (wow!), Budvar Budweiser, Guinness, and
    the list could go on for a long, long time.

- -----------------------------------------------------------
"We don't think the beer, we drink the beer."  - quote from 
  a Duesseldorfian responding to my questions and research.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

Norm Hardy, Seattle

oh,  Widmer Brewing of Portland, OR is marketing a koelsch
now which I tried on Sunday night.  A little cloudy and a 
little rough due probably to less lagering time, but quite
an elegant beer.  It will be good to try it with some of
the koelsch's I brought back.

- ------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:46:53 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Keegan <scottk at jolt.mpx.com.au>
Subject: Wyeast 1098 gritties

The following is a post from a fellow worker that doesn't have direct 
access to the HBD.


Subject: Speleozymurgy, Wyeast 1098 gritties

Jim Busch wrote:
>Al writes:
>> I think the discussion of limestone caves doesn't have anything to do
>> with brewing either.

>It does if you are a caver!

Have I detected the presence of another speleozymurgist on the net?  Anyone
occupying Cavers' Cottage, Jenolan, this last weekend would have been only too
aware of the intimate and symbiotic link between limestone caves and brewing!
But seriously folks!  After 30 something extract based batches I got serious
this year and have now gone all-grain.  Tried the third all-grainer this
weekend (a dark bitter ale made with Wyeast 1098).  All my previous ales have
been made with Coopers yeast cultured from the bottle but I thought as ambient
temperatures in my laundry were dropping below 20 deg c in May (late autumn)
something a little more British might be a safer choice.

The beer (and a subsequently made brown ale) contains, in addition to the
normal layer of lees on the bottom, what appear to be small flecks of
individual yeast clumps which refuse to flocculate together and tend to float
around in the glass when poured.  As CO2 tends to nucleate on them the bubbles
keep them suspended.  I don't think the beer is infected.

I know this is supposed to be the Whitbread triple strain, but does the non-
fermenting, chaining strain normally pull the others into isolated clumps like
this?  All other ales I have made have cleared beautifully (I use gelatine
finings and a 2 week secondary) and I would have expected the same with an
allegedly medium flocculation yeast like this.

As I object to straining my beer with my teeth I would appreciate advice on
whether this normal behaviour for this strain.

David Fisher

******************************************************************************
   David Fisher  -  Australian Securities Commission,  -  Sydney, Australia
         Phone: 61-2-9112707                 Fax: 61-2-9112774
******************************************************************************

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Date: 29 Aug 94 18:33:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Zymurgy

A number of posters, including Ulick, Norm and, most recently William,
have posted about Zymurgy magazine.  Ulick and Norm said that the
magazine was filled with errors and William said:

>...Norm Pyle and I basically agree on the increasing uselessness
>of Zymurgy...

While I must agree that the mill article could have been done better and
that there was no quantifiable measurement criteria for husk damage (which,
I feel, would have made the Corona look much worse in relation to the roller
mills), I feel that Zymurgy has been very error-free since the beginning of
1994.  If you think that Brewing Techniques is error-free, then you are
sadly mistaken.  For example in the latest issue:

p.22 "As I understand it, the RIMS design does not clarify wort.  It pumps
the whole mash..."  [As a matter of fact, the RIMS design does not pump the
mash, but rather the "runnings."]

p.31 "switch over to the 10x objective lens with the 40x objective lens..."
[That should be "10x EYEPIECE lens."]

p.46 "Iodaphors [sic] are made up largely of iodine, phosphoric acid, and
alcohol."  [First, that should be iodophor.  Next, "phor"  means "carrier"
and has nothing to do with phosphoric acid.  Some iodophors have an acid
base, but most don't.]

That's just some of the errors.

Now I don't want to turn this into a Zymurgy versus Brewing Techniques debate.
Zymurgy started at a time when virtually all readers were beginners and I feel
that it would be a big mistake to abandon beginning brewers, filling the pages
of Zymurgy with articles that belong in the ASBC Proceedings.  Brewing
Techniques' target audience includes professional brewers so the articles are
naturally going to be more technical.  I subscribe to both and encourage people
who ask my opinion to do the same.

I know about the goofed-up table in the hop article and the questionable advice
in the "beginner insert," but I'm curious Norm, Ulick... could you point out
some of the errors you have found in recent issues of Zymurgy?  Thanks.

Al.

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Date: 29 Aug 94 18:41:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: correction

That should have been "goofed-up table in the yeast article."  Sorry.
Al.

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 19:05:45 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: IBUs in SUDSW

Dear Friends, In HBD 1513 Chuck Mryglot asked about IBU calculations in
BRFware and SUDSW.  First off, Chuck, the two values you cite (32.3 vs
31.something) are functionally equivalent.  That is, no one could tell the
difference in bittering between two beers with those numbers (all else
being equal of course).  I would take as a good sign that the two values
are so similar.  The results of IBU calcs shouldn't even be expressed to a
decimal place IMHO. 

It is clear from the numbers Chuck got using an ounce of 7.0AA hops that
he has version 3.0x of SUDSW (latest is 3.0c).  Well, Michael Taylor has
produced another upgrade, 3.1, and in the documentation for that upgrade,
Mike says he has changed the IBU routine (I think to use Mark Garetz's
recently published data) to be "more conservative" in IBU estimations.  In
my view it is way *too* conservative, and when I discussed this with him,
he suggested that I poll the net to see if anyone else feels like I do,
and Chuck's post has prompted me to do so now (since I'm in a polling kind
of mood, what with the steam beer question).  My most glaring example is
an IPA that I hopped thusly: 25 gr 10.6% Pride o'Ringwood flowers, 60 min;
20 gr 6.4% Clusters pellets, 40 min; 28 gr 5.4% Cascade pellets, 10 min. 
SUDSW 3.0c gives 53 IBUs for this (23 litre batch BTW), and the beer
tastes like it--it is quite bitter.  SUDSW 3.1 gives something like 26
IBUs, and I just don't buy that something that hopped could have IBUs that
low.  So anyone out there who has SUDS, get 3.1 (it's on the sierra
server) and try your recipes out and see what IBUs are calculated, and
whether you think they come close to your beers or not.  I'm also open to
comments from non-SUDSers based just on the above example.  As before,
it's probably best to fire off email to me on this, and I will compile the
results in due course. 

I am in need of some tasting info on American style wheat beers.  It has
been several years since I lived in Oregon, where I regularly had Pyramid
Wheaten Ale, Wheat Hook, and Widmer's weizen and hefe', and this was
before I began brewing.  I have an American-style wheat in the secondary
(made with 50% wheat malt and 50% pale malt in the mash, augmented with a
kilo of pale extract syrup in my partial mash setup, Wyeast 1056--I am not
after a Bavarian style here), and would like some help from those familiar
with the style so I can fine tune later attempts.  Specifically, how's the
balance--is there residual sweetness, or is it fairly dry?  Should hop
nose and finish be restrained or rambunctious (I hopped fairly lightly)? 
Any comments, especially from you PNWers out there, are most welcome. Thanks.

Aidan the Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi says there is nothing "closet" about
him.  Oh yes there is!  That's where he keeps all his homebrew, in the
closet under his stairs.  Don't try to fool old John Palmer, he'll get you
every time!

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Life's a bitch, but at least there's homebrew" ---Norm Pyle
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 06:25:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: PAULDORE at delphi.com
Subject: HBU vs IBU

Isn't HBU's and IBU's the same measurement?

In Paps book it seems the same. If I have a recipe that calls for 5 HBU's of
a particular hop type, isn't it the same as 5 IBU's

Example: 1oz Fuggles 5 HBU = 1oz Fuggles 5% alpha IBU

Correct me if I'm wrong someone

Pauldore at delphi.com

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 08:40:18 EDT
From: Bob Fawcett <bobf at gulfaero.com>
Subject: peat smoked malt

>(Jan Holloway) writes

>On August 22 Alan Pagliere asked the Digest if anyone knew of a source for
>peat-smoked malt to use in brewing.

I took a trip to Scotland a few years ago and took the oportunity to visit 
several distilleries.  The Scotch makers claimed that much of the "smoky 
peat flavor" in Scotch comes from the water.  In many cases the water source 
is a stream running down from the hills.  Many of these streams travel 
through peat on the way and pick up that flavor.


Bob Fawcett
bobf at gulfaero.com


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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 9:10:38 EDT
From: kain at pms505.pms.ford.com
Subject: good news with the beer machine

Folks:

well, after our first terrible adventure with "the beer machine"
we tried it again, boiling the wort, with wonderful results.

thanks for all who advised us.

beckers and larry


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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 09:09:37 EDT
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: BEER: Genetics

Hi gang,

  I saw this in yesterdays paper and thought it might be of interest:

BEER: Genetics
'Japanese and German beer researchers have used genetic engineering technology
 to develop a totally new strain of brewer's yeast that can shorten the 
 traditional beermaking process by several weeks. Traditional beer must be
 aged for a few weeks until an unpleasant tasting yeast compound called alpha
 acetolate disappears, but the new strain of brewers yeast produces less of 
 the compound, eliminating the need for maturation, and possibly substantially
 reducing the cost of brewiing beer.'

  Does this mean that in the future we can expect to see yeast act like
  a couple of fizzie tablets..... just drop them in the wort, wait a few
  moments for the fizzing to stop, and then consume the finished beer;>)..?!

ChuckM

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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 23:28:55 CDT
From: john at hopduvel.chi.il.us (John Isenhour)
Subject: HB people  at  UIUC

I'm going to be moving to Urbana Champagne in IL for grad school
next week and I'll natually be seeking out any possible HB
connections.   Anybody know of clubs or seriuosly demented
brewers in the area?

tnx!
john

- -- 
John Isenhour                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA National Beer Judge 
home: john at hopduvel.chi.il.us
work: isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov 

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 09:22:06 EDT
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Maris Otter barley

In HBD #1513, Norm Pyle (npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com) writes:

>DeWolf/Cosyns is a Belgian malting house, whereas Klages is a barley
>variety grown in the US, so you see, you're comparing apples and
>oranges.  I don't have all the facts on this, but the following table
>should give you an idea:
>
>Varieties     Malting Houses  
>------------  -----------------------------------  
>Klages        Minnesota Malting (US)  
>Harrington    Great Western Malting (US? Canada?)
>              Hugh Baird (UK)
>              Maris Otter (UK)
>              DeWolf/Cosyns (Belgium)


I don't know if this is just a formatting error, but Maris Otter is a
variety of barley, not a malting house.  The homebrew shop associated
with the Pike Place Brewery sells this variety, and the malting house
that supplies it is Crisp.  It may be available from other malting
houses as well.

 -Allan Rubinoff   <rubinoff at bbn.com>

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:32:29 -0500
From: "Tom Tomazin" <tomt at nano.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re:How to pronounce Celis?

> Now that I've tasted Celis White and Grand Cru, I guess it's time to pronounce
> them correctly.  Is "Celis" pronounced like "say-lee" or "sell-iss" or
> "Kell-eas" or something else?
>
> Thanks,
> Martin Snow

The correct pronunciation is "sell-iss".  In fact they have a Celis
t-shirt that says "Celis a beer" - like Sell us a beer, get it?

Tom
- -- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thomas Tomazin                           Emerging Computing Operations Design 
MOTOROLA SPS, Inc.                       tomt at nano.sps.mot.com
505 Barton Springs Rd. Suite 1055        Austin, Texas 78762 

                                 "How therapeutic it is to surround yourself
                                  with people weirder than yourself."
                                                   --Spalding Gray

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 09:32:25 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium update

Our Speaker X has been lined up, and he is Eric Tofte.  Eric is a
Wienstephan graduate and a former brewer at the Br. de Kluis, which
makes the Hoegaarden beers (and was founded by Pierre Celis and taken
over by Interbrew).

The first group of registration packets will be mailed on Wednesday,
August 31.  If you'd like one and haven't written to me yet just send
a message via e-mail and we'll add your name to the next round.

Finally, lest anyone mistakenly assume that I'm responsible for 
organizing all this stuff, the credit goes entirely to Tim Artz and 
Charlie Gow, both ardent BURPers.  Tim in particular has done a 
phenomenal job and has tolerated the slings and arrows of outrageous 
fortune to bring us this event.  Perhaps BURP will vote to award him 
his weight in Belgian chocolate when all of this is over.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 10:22:02 EDT
From: Brew Free Or Die 30-Aug-1994 1020 <hall at buffa.enet.dec.com>
Subject: RE: propane cookers

In HBD 1511, Guy McConnell asked about propane cookers and Sankey keg compat-
ibility.  In HBD 1513, Jim DiPalma wrote, in response:

>    I believe the cooker Guy refers to is a 165K BTU multi-jet model made
>by Brinkman. A fellow club member checked this model out, and told me that
>it's support ring is exactly the same diameter as a Sankey keg. It's easy to
>imagine the disaster that would result if one happened to bump the keg or the
>stand while it was full of boiling wort. He took a pass on that model.

I'm the club member to whom Jim is referring.  In particular, Guy had mentioned
propane burners at The Home Depot, and one on which the support ring is about
the same diameter as the base of the keg.  If it's the tall-boy model at THD,
don't buy it!  A Sankey keg measures 15 1/2" at the outside diameter of the
bottom ring.  The inside diameter of the bottom ring is 13 5/8".  That tall
Brinkmann burner's support ring is 14 1/2" in diameter.  That means that the
keg is supported by the burner ring *exactly* in the center of the keg's bottom
ring which, while it is about an inch thick, is rounded.  I brought home one of
those Brinkmann's and put a 15.5 gallon keg on it.  I guess I wasn't forceful
enough when I warned Jim and the other members of BFD via our email list about
this keg/burner combination.  Forget about bumping into the keg and tipping it
over - it'll never stay upright by itself!  It's a bad fit, period.

Too bad.  The high burner and keg were at a great height overall, and at about
$62, the price was right.

Call the number Jim posted for Metal Fusion and request their catalog.  There's
a nice ring-type burner model available directly from them for about $57 plus
shipping which I now fit's a Sankey keg.  I'll post the model number tomorrow.

- --
 Dan Hall   Digital Equipment Corporation   MKO1-2/H10   Merrimack, NH   03054
 hall at buffa.enet.dec.com		        ....!decwrl!buffa.dec.com!hall
  
 		      "Adhere to Schweinheitsgebot
	Don't put anything in your beer that a pig wouldn't eat"  --David Geary

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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 08:31:55 -0600
From: grow at sumatra.mcae.stortek.com (Roger Grow)
Subject: Elderberry Wine Request



Good day,

    I am searching for an elderberry wine recipe.
Either a straight wine or a melomel recipe would
be great.
Private email is O.K.(r) if its not of common interest,
although an elderberry beer could work... naa... well mabye?

Insert favorite clever quote here (keep it clean).

TIA,
Roger



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1515, 09/01/94