FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  coriander (Btalk)
  counterpressure pressure (Btalk)
  Fix's 40/60/70 mash schedule (Patrick Casey)
  Thanks - IPA Hops (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
  Red Dog, PET bottles, La Maudite (Alan_Marshall)
  molasses usage (James Gallagher)
  two dumb questions-pet & coriander (RONALD DWELLE)
  Lager Yeast Starter Question ("Palmer.John")
  Brewpub Location (Big Dog Brewing)
  motoring a mill (Jay Weissler)
  Coriander (Mark Worwetz)
  RE:Best Location for  a brewery = ????? (Jim Busch)
  Re: Conditioning with New Yeast (John DeCarlo              )
  15 gallon brew system (JSTONE)
  TSP (Douglas R. Jones)
  Pete's WWB (JSTONE)
  Re: Master Judge is Stumped! (Chuck Cox)
  Yeast side effects (michael j dix)
  Coriander:  Let's hear more ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
   ("SEANN TUPPER" )
  culturing Wyeast Bavarian Weizen (Dan Sherman)
  amylases (HOMEBRE973)
  Spirit of Belgium (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Broken Bottles/Soda Kegs (Jeff Wade)
  RE: Yeast Lab "European Lager." (uswlsrap)
  DME for priming ("Mark A. Melton")
  irc tasting (Jim Doyle)
  new bench capper (DONBREW)
  Alcohol Content ("Chris Cesar")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 08:44:34 -0500
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: coriander

Coriander is the seed from the Cilantro plant. Coriander is round and roughly
the size of a pea.
Speaking of 'secret' ingredients... If you make your own Salsa, add some
fresh Cilantro.
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz<btalk at aol.com>
disoriented in Binghamton, NY

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 08:44:36 -0500
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: counterpressure pressure

I've had good luck with everything at 15 psi and bottle at this pressure. My
home made CP filler is the three valve design and I control fill rate  with
the 'exhaust 'valve. Coldness is important. Below 35F works for me.
COunterpressure bottling is a minor hassle. I only do a few ie for contests,
but it still beats filling 60 or so bottles.
regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY<btalk at aol.com>

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 09:10:55 EST
From: pacasey at lexmark.com (Patrick Casey)
Subject: Fix's 40/60/70 mash schedule 

I'd like to try this mash schedule, but would like to know if this
leads to a more dextrinous, sweeter beer, or a more highly
fermentable, drier beer.  The final rest at 70C tells me it'll be
dextrinous, but perhaps the 60C rest combined with the relative
thinnness of the mash (I think he calls for about 1.5 quarts water per
lb. grain by the time you're at the 40C rest), will cause it to be
highly fermentable...

Any ideas?  Thanks!

 - Patrick

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Date: 14 Nov 94 14:13:00 GMT
From: mlm01 at intgp1.att.com (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
Subject: Thanks - IPA Hops

I would like to thank everyone for their responses to my Hops question.
I recently sent out a request for advice in hopping an India Pale Ale.
The response was overwhelming. I received about 13 responses. The
underlying message was that I should have used English hops in an
English beer. 

I received many responses that maybe the AHA needs to
recognize a new style, American IPA. Afterall, there are only 2 IPAs 
in existence in England of which the O.G. is ~1.040. The United States
has several great examples of the style, with American Hops. 

Another comment was that the original IPAs used significant quantities 
of imported hops, including Californian (go figure). Anyway, I have
another IPA in the secondary, this one I used all English Hops and
the same recipe as the American IPA. It will be interesting to see
the comparison of remarks on the two beers.


Thanks to all that responded.

Mike Montgomery
mlm01 at intgp1.att.com

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:52:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan_Marshall <AK200032 at Sol.YorkU.CA>
Subject: Red Dog, PET bottles, La Maudite

In HBD #1578,  Greg Niznik <GENIZN01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> writes

> Subject:      RED DOG
> 
> I saw a commercial on tv last night for RED DOG. I tried the Canadian
> version of this beer last summer and loved it (BTW, they ran the same
> commercial for it here in Kentucky as they did in Toronto last year).
> Has anyone tried it here in the US who has also tried the original
> Canadian version? Is it the same thing or a watered down version?

There is really no reason to water it down since normal beer is the 
same strength in Canada and the U.S., about 4.0% abw (U.S.) or 5.0% 
abv (Canada)  Red Dog is 5.5%, so for *some* states it might have to 
be relabelled or watered down to meet arcane laws.

BTW, Red Dog falls between Molson's regular swill and their all-malt
Signature Series beers in terms of quality.  In otherwords, okay, but
nothing still not worth buying.  They are calling it an alt beer,
despite being a blend of ale and lager.  The use of the word "alt" is
due to it's marketing campaign showing a belligerent bulldog "being
his own dog"  One suspects that if Molson could get away with having
the dog defecate or urinate, they'd go for it.  Also, today is
election day in Toronto.  The Red Dog billboards in Toronto have had
Ed the Sock (a likewise belligerent puppet from a local cable show who
is running a write-in campaign for Mayor) beside the Red Dog, saying
some thing like "Tell the politians to stuff it." 

I suggest this might be better discussed in alt.beer or
rec.food.drink.beer 

****

Matthew Sendbuehler <sendbu at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> writes:

> Subject: Three testimonials: PET bottles, coriander, yeast
> 
> 
> In response to recent discussions, I'd like to add a few
> data points:

<Testimonial about PET bottles snipped>

I second this with two additional data points:

1. IMHO, the best packaged commercial ales on Ontario are those by 
Wellington, which bottles exclusively in brown 1 litre PET bottles.  
They do suggest a rather short shelve-life, however (about 4-6 weeks, 
I think.)

2. The best homebrew I ever enjoyed was Carlo Fusco's American IPA, 
also packaged in a 1 litre PET bottle.  I think he told me that they 
are not impermeable to oxygen, and he wouldn't put a "laying down 
beer", like a barley wine, in them.

Then Matt writes about Maudite's yeast (also snipped)

> This was a batch split between this yeast and generic 
> dry ale yeast, and the Maudite (trans: Damn!) yeast IMHO 
> elevated the brew from ordinary to delicious.  Get your hands 

Actually, La Maudite tranlates to "The Damned" and is based on a
legend of some Quebec voyageurs retruning from Lake Athabaska (in
Alberta) concerned that they would not reach Montreal before the
freeze-up. They made a deal with the Devil for their quick and safe
return and became "La Maudite" or "The Damned".  La Maudite is
modelled on Belgium's "Lucifer" beer and is 8%, not the 9% Matt
reported, unless changed in the past year.  Unibroue's consulting
brewer is Pierre Celis.  

Alan   (ak200032 at sol.yorku.ca)

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 10:03:22 EST
From: jimg at dcz.gso.uri.edu (James Gallagher)
Subject: molasses usage

I missed the early part of the current molasses discussion, but I've been
thinking about adding some to a pale ale receipt. How much molasses do other
brewers use? Which brands of molasses are best? Which are OK? Suppose a
brewer wanted to make a Bass clone using malt and molasses (as opposed to
malt and brown sugar), how much molasses would give a `Bass flavor'?

- -- 
James Gallagher
jimg at dcz.gso.uri.edu

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 10:15:55 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: two dumb questions-pet & coriander

     I never brewed me no coriander, so stopped in the store this morning 
     to buy some. They have "leaf" and "seed." Same? Which for brewing? Is 
     the end of full-flatulence in sight?
     
     What's PET? Are these your standard Coke plastic bottles re-used? Do 
     you re-use the Coke caps? I'd like to do some plastic, since my 
     homebrew likes to go sailing with me and the glass bottles get banged 
     around and break just often enough to create these huge yeast cultures 
     in the bilge. (Anybody got a technique for brewing while on a voyage?)
     
     Ron Dwelle (dweller at gvsu.edu)

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Date: 14 Nov 1994 07:51:08 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Lager Yeast Starter Question

Hi Group,
I am currently fermenting a Graf-style Vienna from Doc Fix's book and I used
Wyeast Bohemian lager. I made up a one quart yeast starter (2 1pt additions)
and did it at room temp over about 4 days. (This is my first ever lager.)

My question is: 
1a. Should I have made that yeast starter at my Fermenting Temperature of 48F
instead of 68F?  
1b. Do the yeast mutate themselves to the higher temperature conditions of the
starter? 
1c. Will my yeast go thru temp shock or will they be innured to that because
they have supposedly undergone post-krausen hibernation?

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com  Huntington Beach, California
          *Brewing is Fun*

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:16:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Big Dog Brewing <mcastlem at carbon.denver.colorado.edu>
Subject: Brewpub Location

	I will start first with where you should not have a brewpub.  As 
much as it pians me to say it, DO NOT COME TO COLORADO.  We have some 
sort of brewery on every flat piece of ground and some of the less steep 
mountains.  I fear that the night of the long knives will be coming to 
the CO brewing industry soon.  
	As to a positive location; I would recommend the Minneapolis/St 
Paul area.  As of now there are only 2 brewpubs and 2 micros in a metro 
area of almost 3 million people.  There is a strong German/Scandanavian 
beer culture and a growing, young, population.  I know that when I lived 
there I wished that there was more variety.

My 1s 6d worth (inflation you know).

                             Mark W Castleman
                     Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - West
This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord has intended
a more glorious form of consumption.  So let us give praise to our maker 
and glory to his name by learning about beer.  --Friar Tuck


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 10:16:04 -0600
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: motoring a mill

Thanks to all who responded to the motoring a JS maltmill question.  
Judging by the response rate, Jack must have sold a million of these.  
Several people pointed out that whatever you do, be careful. A  
motorized mill is potentially dangerous as is the motor, any drive  
belts etc. You're at risk, be careful, etc. Now the suggestions  
(names left off to protect the innocent):

1) Get off your fat butt and crank the damn thing. You spend too much  
time drinking beer, get some exercise... OOPs that was my  
conscious...Think we can safely ignore that.

2) Use a standard 1/3 to 1/2 hp 1725 rpm electric motor with 3" & 12"  
pulleys to gear it down to about 400 rpm (or go a little slower).  
These can often be scavenged from washers and other appliances.

3) Use a gear motor with about 30-40 ft/lbs torque and 1 to 1  
gearing.

4) Chuck a cheap electric drill directly to the mill and tie the  
drill down so that the roller spins instead of the drill.

5) Use any size motor (geared to turn the mill at about 300-400 rpm)  
and feed the grain slower if the motor is small.

Thanks again to all who responded.
jayw

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:36:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz)
Subject: Coriander

Howdy All!

OK, I'm hooked!  Several of you have been talking about the miraculous
effects of coriander in beer lately, and I have noticed one little point
that needs to be clarified.  HOW MUCH TO USE?!!  How much for clear, clean,
anti-flatulent beer?  How much more for orange flavored, increased
sex-drive ;-) brew?  I am going to brew my Holiday Ale this week and this
sounds like a great addition.  Private or public resonses welcome,
copyright notices are not!

TIA, TTFN, RDWHAHB, CYA, etc!
Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:59:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE:Best Location for  a brewery = ?????

Nimbus writes:

<I'm in the awesome position, if things go as planned, of needing to
choose a location for a small brewery.

Awesome is an interesting choice of words.

<Production will be about 2000 barrels/year. 

Hummm, you already know your production level and you havent even
selected a site yet?  This reveals impressive foresight and a keen
proximity to the gods.

<We want to avoid big cities, as they'll have higher costs and more
<regulations/taxes/red-tape.

Thats right, you wouldnt want to locate in a well populated area, it
may result in too many customers.  Very bad for buisness.

<We'd like to open in a bit over a year.

As someone who has spent considerable time researching the market, and
as a brewery investor, I'll make one constructive comment.  You should
be prepared for a time consuming effort that will have little to no 
chance of being open within one to one and a half years.

Good luck,

Jim Busch 

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 12:49:57 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Conditioning with New Yeast

>I'm getting ready to bottle a sparkling mead that has been sitting in a
>carboy for about three months.  I'm planning to use a liquid champagne
>yeast to condition it.

Well, I'm no expert, but I fermented/conditioned my mead in various fermenters
for about 14 months.  I bottled and added 1 cup of honey for priming.  (OK, 
that was too much, but not wildly too much--I just have to pour three times 
to fill a glass.)

Each bottle was carbonated in a couple of weeks and tasting very nice.  The 
long aging in the fermenters made a big difference in flavor and clarity.

Yet I didn't add any yeast at bottling time, just what was left after 14 
months.  Worked great.  May be worth trying.  YMMV IMNSHO.  Merry Meading!

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 09:13:23 PST
From: JSTONE at SJEVM5.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: 15 gallon brew system

Cliff,

  I don't qualify as a "brewer with experience in these types of
brewing systems", actually, I'm just about where you're at.  I'm
expecting my 15 G SS Vollrath pots this week.  The 15 G pot which
serves as a sparge vessel has two SS welds:  one 0.5" NPT to accept
a thermowell with thermistor/I.C. sensor; and a 1" NPSM weld to
accept a 1500 W/120 V hot water heater element.

  The system is built around a PC with an analog/digital IO card.
The PC will (hopefully) monitor and control all temperatures
(sparge and mash) and the flow of water/wort [sparge-to-mash,
mash-to-mash (recirculating path) and mash-to-boil].

  I plan on feeding the thermistor/I.C. sensor information to the
PC and using the PC to control the hot water heater element via a
solid state relay.  Of course, not everyone is crazy enough to
introduce a PC into their brewing systems.  Solid state relays in
the 15 - 18 A range are expensive (~$20).  I chose to mount them
on rather large heat sinks (also very expensive).

  I talked with a number of other brewers regarding sparge water
control.  The most common techniques include,

  A Rodney Morris type controller.

  A bimetal thermostat mounted (or threaded) into the side of the
    sparge vessel.  A SS version is available from Grainger for
    ~$70.  I believe the accuracy is +- 1 oF.  I'm sure this is
    overkill and less expensive thermostats are available.

Both techniques involve the off-the-shelf hot water heater element.

  I hope to have my system up and running by Thanksgiving.  I would
like to append a description of the system, once I've had a chance
to brew a few batches with it.

Joe

P.S.  I'm still looking for inexpensive solenoid valves.  The only
  alternative I've considered is a stepper (or geared) motor mounted
  on top of an existing SS ball valve.  This could be considered a
  proportioning valve (available through Omega for as little as $895
  ... what a deal).  Does anyone have any experience mounting a
  motor on a ball valve?

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 11:58:42 CST
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: TSP

With all the discussion of TSP lately I'll toss in a couple of cents worth.
I am not a chemist (nor do I play one on TV) but wall cleaner seems to me
that wall cleaner probably won't make a cleaner worth having. I believe we
had a post lately about white film being left. I use Chlorinated TSP from
_The Home Brewery_ (no affiliation) and have had great success with it.
Another brewer I know leaves his bottles for very extended periods of time
in this. (A trash can full of strong solution). With the chlorine in it is
DOES act as a sanitizer (though I am too paranoid for this so my bottles
also get a iodophor soak).

Bottom line is, until I hear from a chemist that wall cleaner if OK for
food grade products (bottles etc) then I am sticking to something *I* know
is OK.

Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of        |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'  |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin        |    (214)301-1307
                           |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 09:50:53 PST
From: JSTONE at SJEVM5.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Pete's WWB

  I seem to recall that last year, the homebrewer's name WAS on the
neck of the Pete's Wicked Winter Brew bottle.  I'm not sure where
it went this year.

  I enjoy a bottle of WWB.  My significant other LOVES it!  And I
find that the more she enjoys beer (of any kind), the more tolerant
she is of my brewing.  ;*)

Joe

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 12:31:18 EST
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re: Master Judge is Stumped!

The cat is out of the bag and it's my own damn fault.

Coriander has long been the secret ingredient in all of my beers, so
secret that I never included it in any of my written recipes.  As you
might guess, I was a victim of my own paranoia, and simply forgot to add
it to the latest batch of Oktoberfest. 

I know that coriander has long been the secret weapon of a handful of
top brewers, but that article in Zymurgy has really ruined it for the
brewing elite.

In order to fix my Oktoberfest, I made up a coriander tea and added it
to the keg.  Amazingly, all the problems disappeared overnight!
Unfortunately, I think I overcompensated; the Oktoberfest is so malty it
tastes more like a Bock, and my sex drive has returned with such
voracity that all the ewes eye me suspiciously and keep their backsides
pointed away from me. 

- -- 
Chuck Cox   <chuck at synchro.com>
SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass.

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 11:22:18 "PST
From: michael j dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Subject: Yeast side effects

I thought this was so obvious that some one else would bring it up:
If I drink my beer too green (tasting after siphoning, or checking how
aging is coming along), I find that while the beer is delicious, it
has a powerful evacuative effect.  I attribute this to mass quantities
of yeast in suspension.  Try a little kaopectate and let the yeast settle
out.

Mike Dix

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:23:12 -0800
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Mega-brewing for fun (no profit)

Well, now I know what I want for Christmas...

My first experience with the Impaling Alers 55 gallon brewery is 
now history, and I now wish to bore you to tears with the story. 
Larry, of Larry's Warehouse and Brewing Supply, is an 
inveterate tinkerer. He loves to weld, especially if he has a 
purpose in mind. I don't know where he got the 55 gallon 
stainless steel drum, but the former wine storage tank is now a 
kettle. He cut off the top, attached handles, and welded a 1 inch 
threaded fitting to the side near the bottom. The threads fit at 
both sides, allowing the mother of all hop backs to be inside the 
kettle, and a fire hose sized attachment with valve for the 
outside. This sucker is big. Well, not quite big enough for a real 
commercial brewery, but plenty damn big. In a commercial 
kettle, I imagine that the workers must be lowered inside of it to 
clean it. I couldn't fit, but I did lay the durn thing on it's side 
when I cleaned it. Swallowed me up too...

The heat source is a former house furnace, with a 10 gallon 
propane tank for fuel source. It made my garage nice and toasty. 
This combination boiled 20 gallons of water in 60 minutes, and 
40 gallons in 100 minutes. I had been warned that this thing 
would take all day to operate. In fact, I found that we had erred 
on the side of too long a time for an estimate of how long it 
would take. There were times when hot water was ready, and we 
weren't ready for its use. How did we store the water? That's a 
tun question.

The recipe that I created called for 74 lbs of pale ale malt (54 lbs 
of Gambrinus and 20 lbs of DeWolf-Cosyns Belgian pale), 6 lbs 
of Great Western wheat malt, and 5 lbs of #10 crystal malt. For 
those of you keeping score at home, that's 85 lbs of grain! I had 
planned 45 gallons of wort with an OG of 1.046, having a color 
of just over 5. I have a metric that I've created that tells me what 
hopping schedule I need for 'balance', and this dictated a 
hopping rate of about 22 IBU. More on the hops later.

I've worked out a water schedule for my home brewing system, 
and I attempted to scale this up for the amounts of stuff 
involved. The plan was for 20 gallons of water heated up for a 
standard infusion mash (the last thing in the world that I wanted 
was to have to deal with 30 lbs of grain in a decoction mash!), 
with 40 gallons of sparge water. What with the grain absorbing 
water (I estimated about 10 gallons for all that grain), and an 
estimated 9 gallons of evaporation (a 1.5 hour boil at 6 gallons 
per hour), there was a lot of substance in the system. I had also 
boiled up an additional 10 gallons of water in case the mash 
temperature needed adjusted. This was very handy, as I shall 
explain.

With all of this grain, we needed some place to mash them. Larry 
owns two 108 quart coolers (Igloo?), one of which is set up for 
mash, the other set up for sparge. I can fit about 30 lbs of grain 
in my 48 quart cooler, so I estimated that I would need about 150 
quarts of mash tun capacity for all of that grain. Thus the single 
cooler wasn't sufficient. (In retrospect, it might have worked, but 
it would have been close.) Don Johnson, also of the Alers and 
BJCP candidate brought a lot of his equipment over to augment 
the operation. He has two coolers, steel (belted?) jacketed 
Coleman, one 48 quart, and the other 80 quarts. He also has a 
really cool pump for just sparge water that he got in a J. C. 
Whitney's catalog, used for pumping in RVs. Between the 108 
quart cooler and the 80 quart cooler, we had grain capacity to 
spare. We stored the too-soon ready sparge water in the other 
108 quart cooler, and in the steel 48 quarter.

to be continued...

Rich Webb

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:23:25 -0800
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Mega-brewing for fun (no profit) (continued)

We're so smart. We decided to acidify the sparge water. How 
much? Well, only experience can tell. We decided to add 3 
Tablespoon measures of acid blend to the 40 gallons of water at 
near boil in the kettle. Don, the equipment god once again, used 
his digital pH meter to record the before and after chemical 
snapshots of our water acidity. Before acidification, the tap water 
(at tap temperature) had a pH of about 8. After adding the acid, 
pH dropped to 2.6! WAY below our target of 5! Hence the 
addition of the 10 gallons of emergency backup water for acid 
water dilution. This raised the pH to about 6.2. We decided to 
live with this. That acid blend is some powerful stuff! Anybody 
wants to figure out what the correct quantity for an adjustment of 
about 10 gallons of water? I'd be more than happy to find out 
how we should have done it...

Accident number 1. Don had his digital pH meter in his shirt 
pocket when he leaned over the sparge water storage cooler to 
look at the water. Meter, affected by gravity (as are we all) fell 
into the water. Contemplating the cost of a digital pH meter, 
balanced by damage to organic substances (flesh) in 170 degree 
water, he reached in and grabbed his meter. Good call! Only a 
little burn to his fingers, and with any luck, his meter will live 
to 
report pH another day.

Accident number 2 & 3. Don is a carpenter, and after a job 
found a lot of materials that didn't get used. He took the stuff 
and created a really cool collapsible stand for standing his tuns 
on. The legs fit into a step like affair that can be stood on (hence 
the step form) for tun observation. Unfortunately, he set his 
stand up in the garage under the garage door railings. Being of 
elongated stature, both he and I managed to step up on the step 
and bash our heads into the railings. I learned my lesson. 
Operant conditioning you know. After I pointed this out to him, 
he stepped up on it again. All he did then was knock his hat off. 
I 
think that he picked up on the danger then. No more injuries 
were suffered. That I know of...

The mashing and boiling went without incident. Don's pump (I 
have serious equipment envy, what with his tuns, his pump, his 
stand, his kettle, and what not...) worked great for pumping 
sparge water around to the sparge ring. It would collapse if there 
was any air in the system, but that's planning water elevations 
only. The liquor transfer was less satisfactory. Drain to buckets, 
and pour a looooooong distance to the bottom of the kettle. 
Again, proper liquid elevation planning for next time.

Even with the addition of 10 extra gallons into the system, the 
starting kettle volume was a little short. The final gravity reading 
was 1.050, so I estimate a final volume of 42 gallons. The 
hopping schedule called for a LOT of hops, even though the IBU 
level wasn't that high. I had checked my hops a few days before 
on a kitchen diet scale. It said that I had plenty of hops. It lied. 
When I put the bag on my more scientific scale at the actual 
addition time, I was a couple of ounces short. Serious 
improvisation required. The actual additions were 150 gm of 
Perle hop flowers at 9.0% acid and 90 gm of Pride of Ringwood 
hop flowers at 7.0% acid for 60 minutes, 115 gm of Cascade 
(parentage unknown) for 20 minutes, and 250 gm of Saaz flowers 
added over the course of the last 5 minutes. This gave an 
estimated IBU of about 30 IBU, when 24 IBU is considered 
'balanced'. A bit over hopped for what I had in mind, but a lot of 
the unexpected bitterness comes from the large amount of late 
hops, where I had planned on lesser additions. Oh yeah, we 
added 2 oz of Irish Moss for 15 minutes of boil. The wort chillers 
were added for the Cascades addition. Larry needs to build a 
counter flow chiller for this operation. Until then, we had to 
make do with three coils of copper immersion chillers. This took 
a LONG time to cool off that much wort, but we had the time, as 
we finished up by 3 o'clock, and had to wait for people to get off 
of work to come and get their wort. Starting at 6:45 that 
morning, we were done boiling, pitched and cleaned up by 5:00. 
A piece of cake.

In any case, 4 people took away 9 different batches, for 9 
different post kettle treatments. There are several yeasts 
involved, mostly Wyeast ale types (American, British, and Irish), 
a couple of dry (Edme is the only one that I can remember), and 
Yeast lab Oktoberfest. Should be interesting. I think that some 
of the batches will also be dry hopped with Saaz. Sounds lovely. 
I'll let you know how it works out.

Until next time,
Rich Webb

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 13:37:20 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: Coriander:  Let's hear more

I was quite surprised to see the number of comments about 
coriander in beer on the hbd this weekend.  Some of the 
comments seemed to be hearsay without direct experience 
yet the volume of responses suggest that there is a real 
benefit to using this spice in beer.

I made a wit beer this weekend and the coriander aroma and
flavor dominated this beer's wort (as it should for this 
style).  The 3/4 oz. of coriander in 5 gals.  was added 
15 minutes before kockout for this batch.  My question is:
If I wish to add coriander to another beer style (let's 
say an Octoberfest or a British ale)  when and how much 
should be added to keep the flavor subdued enough to 
enhance the beer without dominatng it?
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date:         14 Nov 94 16:13:36 AST
From: "SEANN TUPPER" <TUPPERS at brhs.cogs.ns.ca>
Subject:      

HelpSeann Tupper
Box 359
Bridgetown,NS, Canada
BOS 1CO

tuppers at brhs.cogs.ns.ca

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:34:23 -0800 (PST)
From: dsherman at sdcc3.UCSD.EDU (Dan Sherman)
Subject: culturing Wyeast Bavarian Weizen

In HBD #1578, Harry Covert <0007059940 at mcimail.com> asks about
culturing Wyeast Bavarian Weizen.

I say, yes, go ahead and culture it (I did).  If it is indeed a mix
of two strains, however, you do not want to pick single colonies
(obviously).  Instead, make a patch of the culture on your plates
(or baby food jars, or whatever :-) ).  About a one inch square
patch should be sufficient.  If you are unfamiliar with this
"technique", just take your inoculating loop, sterile toothpick, or
whatever and streak a small amount of yeast back and forth numerous
times on a small, square area.  This is a patch.  The yeast should
grow to a fairly equal density over this area.

When it comes time to inoculate your starter, take a large inoculum
from the patch.  If there are two strains present, this will insure
that both of them are represented in approximately the same
proportion in your starter.

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:09:42 -0500
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: amylases

Domenick asks about the color tests with iodine:
Starch  comes in two forms:  amylose which are long unbranched chains of
D-glucose units with  1,4 linkages  and gives a blue-black color with iodine.
 This blue black color is caused by the iodine fitting into the amylose
chains which form a helical structure.  Once the helical structure is
destoyed by enymes and can no longer trap the iodine, the blue black color
disappears.  Amylopectin which is a highly branched starch consisting of
chains of glucose with 1,4 linkages, but also has branch points which contain
1,6 linkages.  Amylopectin gives a red-violet color with iodine.  Alpha
amylase can break the 1,4 linkages at random yielding mixtures of glucose and
maltose. Beta-amylase cleaves away successive maltose units from the non
reducing end to yield maltose.  Dextrins  are polysaccharides of intermediate
chain lengths formed from the starch components by the amylases.  Since
neither alpha nor beta amylases can hydrolyze 1,6 linkages, the amylopectin
starches will be broken down to limit dextrins, which I assume will yield a
red violet color depending on the amount and size of the limit dextrin.
  Alpha glucosidase can  break the 1,6 linkages.  
(Lehninger, 1975 ; Biochemistry)

Andy Kligerman

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 16:37:26 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Spirit of Belgium

Well, I've recovered from the Spirit of Belgium conference (Saturday
morning I had a mild case of the "Belgian Triple Flu"), and thought
I'd describe some of the highlights (from my point of view).

* Meeting lots of net-folk.  Nice to put faces to your names!  

I was standing at the hotel registration desk when a couple of guys
came in, pushing a cart full of beer cases.  One of them turned to me
and said "Hi, Spence!"  I'd never met him....  Side effect of
publishing my face on the net, I guess.

* Pierre Rajotte talked about practical aspects of Belgian beer
  brewing, in particular about yeast handling and bottle refermentation.
- -- Bottle refermentation always means adding fresh yeast at bottling
   time (to a Belgian).  This is essential when brewing high gravity.
- -- Get to know your yeast.  Make a test batch (1 pint is sufficient)
   with the yeast before brewing with it.  Smell it, taste it, etc.
   Make a batch of pale ale before brewing a BIG beer with it.  Use
   the first batch to "pitch" the second.
- -- Make a slant from your starter before pitching.  You can use this
   yeast to inoculate the starter you'll use to referment with.
- -- Put a small portion of your wort into a jar and stick it a *warm*
   place so it will ferment quickly and completely.  It may not taste
   good, but you *need* to know the finished gravity of the beer.  You
   can use this knowledge to determine when your big batch is done,
   and how much sugar (if any) you'll need to add for priming.

* Dan McConnell talked about how yeast makes flavors.  Lots of
  chemical diagrams that I'm not going to try to reproduce.

* Pierre Perpete, from the University of Louvain (Belgium) talked
  about how brewing and fermentation conditions affect flavor. 
  Interesting, but difficult to understand in spots.  He claimed that
  one of the (2) yeasts pitched into Orval at bottling time is a
  Brettanomyces yeast.

* Eric Toft, a brewmaster at a Belgian brewery for several years,
  talked about Belgian brewing practices and ingredient profiles for
  various styles.  Fascinating!  So much information that copies were
  made of his slides to take home.

* Friday night tasting.  Lots of beer flowing in large quantities.
  Adjourned upstairs after the official reception closed.  Went quite
  late for some (I left about 1:30).

* Saturday morning competition judging, starting at 8am (oooohhhh, my
  head!)  I was on one of the Triple tables.  Mostly quite good, too.

* Saturday afternoon tasting of Celis beers, led by Pierre Celis.  He
  let loose a few more "secrets" about the White and the Grand Cru.
  He now says that the ONLY spices in the White are Curacao and
  *Sweet* (new info!) orange peel, and Coriander (but no amounts, of
  course).  When asked about the lactobacillus pitching step, he first
  said "I will not lie to you," and then something about "30 years of
  experience."  He had "trouble" understanding the English of a couple
  of other "nosy" questions :-)  Unfortunately, NO RASPBERRY BEER!
  Apparently the Virginia ABC hadn't approved it for sale yet.

* Saturday evening banquet.  You had to be there.  5 courses, 6 beers,
  each introduced by Don Feinberg (owner of VanBerg & Dewulf,
  importers of fine Belgian beers).  And, of course, the announcement
  of the competition winners.

I checked out fairly early Saturday night, since I had an early flight
home.  More beer was on hand after the banquet, and some continued to
party well into the night.

I'd say it was definitely worth it for me.  I learned quite a bit from
the presentations, enjoyed the beer, and it was great to finally meet
a bunch of people I "knew" only from the net.


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 14:15:16 -0700
From: jeffpolo at eskimo.com (Jeff Wade)
Subject: Broken Bottles/Soda Kegs

Don't throw out that two-handled bottle capper!!
        I ran into the same problems with mine a few years back.  All you need
        to do is apply petroleum jelly to the joint and *zow*, good as new :)

Soda Kegs.
        Just wanted to mention how serious a crime it is to tear the tags
off of
        a bed matress these days.  Also just as serious to own a soda keg from a
        distributer that has not authorized this.  A little FYI....

WWW.
        The Virtual Pub.
        http://lager.geo.brown.edu:8080/virtualpub/index.html
        Access beer related images and documents, plus participate in on-line
        beer tastings.

        Eric's Beer Page
        http://pekkel.uthscsa.edu/beer.html
        Information about brewing, and the Texas Beer Scene.

        Spencer's Beer Page
        http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu:80/Beer/index.html
        About Homebrewing.

        The Cityscape Pub Guide
        http://www.cityscape.co.uk:81/bar/pubguide.html
        An interactive guide to pubs in Cambridge, England.

        Beer in Cyberspace
        http://karikukko.pc.helsinki.fi/beerinfo.html
        The beer scene in Finland and beyond (finnish/English)

Internet: Jeffpolo at eskimo.com
Eskimo North/Bellevue, WA

"There is no BEER in heaven, that is why we drink and brew it here!"
        Go Huskies......



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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 17:26:57 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: RE: Yeast Lab "European Lager."                                  

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: RE: Yeast Lab "European Lager."

I wouldn't mind seeing either a summary of any replies or posts directly
to the digest. Whether there is actually a satisfactory dry "lager"
yeast now out there is probably of sufficient interest.

I can't tell you (without checking) which one (European or Amsterdam) I
used, but I used the one that comes in a 7 g packet (the other one is 14
or 15) in a cider (fermented at room temperature) as an experiment and
was pleased. Very dry, the way I like it, but without all that loose
sediment that I get with Pasteur Champagne yeast.

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: 14 Nov 94 17:28:21 EST
From: "Mark A. Melton" <75452.277 at compuserve.com>
Subject: DME for priming

Gary Hannan asked about the longer wait to reach a desired degree of carbonation
when using DME instead of dextrose for priming. I have experienced this also. I
did a little experimentation in solubility of DME in water. In cool water it
does not dissolve fully (volume increases). In hot (> 180 dF) water more
dissolves; in boiling water it all dissolves (final volume is slightly less than
initial because of loss to vapor). So I now use half-and-half DME and dextrose,
1 cup per 5 gals., and dissolve it in a quart of the beer extracted for that
purpose, brought to a boil for a few minutes. This is poured with minimal
splashing back into the bottling vat and stirred with a sanitized plastic
paddle. My two most recent brews were made with 1) all DME treated as above and
2) all dextrose, also boiled. There was no obvious difference in the time to
achieve carbonation and clarify. It's entirely possible that DME not boiled
before being added to beer for bottling would never be dissolved completely. 
Mark A. Melton  


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 15:02:31 -0700
From: Jim Doyle <jgdoyle at uci.edu>
Subject: irc tasting

Since I threw away the digest with the IRC tasting info, would somebody
tell me what days, time, and upcoming styles to be tasted there?

On pet bottles (and filling with beer)-how do y'all fill them? 
Counterpressure, or with those cap-pressurizing do-dads?

On the BBC hops issue-I called, and the girl who answered the phone (his
great-grandmother? heh heh ;>  ) told me to send $12.00 to: Noble Hops,
Boston Beer Co., 30 Germania Street, Boston, MA 02130.  She said they would
send a pound of hops.  I figure that if I get a pound, I scored.  If I get
an ounce, I got some kewl hops. While on the phone, I asked for promotional
info, and they sent a large envelope with some promo freebies, and several
back-issues of the newsletter.  All very hyp-ish, but I was impressed with
the speed and efficiency of the outfit.  I'll post the results of my $12.00
attempt when appropriate.

L8R,

Jim Doyle
jgdoyle at uci.edu
California
USA
North America
Earth
Milky Way
Eye Of God


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:21:42 -0500
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: new bench capper

    I found with my Corona that the solution is to hold the bottle tightly
with my left hand and actuate the lever with my right hand, still holding the
bottle on the up stroke.  The thing seems to work much better this way.  The
guy I bought from said to twist it out, I considered this bad advice.

Don
Donbrew at aol.com
Falls Church, Va.


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Date: 14 Nov 1994 16:23:03 U
From: "Chris Cesar" <Chris_Cesar at qmgate.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Alcohol Content

Mail*Link(r) SMTP               Alcohol Content

I have been brewing for about 7 years now, and shamefully admit that I rarely
use a hydrometer any more, except to occasionally check and see what the
potential alcohol content of a certain batch is.  Strange as it may sound,
people often ask me if my beer has more alcohol than say Bud.  Most of my
beers have an OG between 1.040 and 1.060, finishing between 1.010 and 1.020. 
I'm speaking from memory now, since I don't have my chart or log book handy,
but I seem to recall that the beers usually finished with about 4 to 5.5%
alcohol (by volume).  All of these beers have more body, more malt flavor,
more bitterness, and more complexity than Bud, Miller, Coors, or any standard
US commercial brew.  I have often told friends that I only brew "heavy" beer. 
None of this light stuff for me.

I recently was checking out the sierra archives, and came across a
beer-calories FAQ, that listed the alcohol content of about 200 beers.  Boy
was I surprised.  According to this FAQ,  the alcohol content of Budweiser was
4.6%, Miller Highlife  had 4.8%, and Coors had 4.9%.  The numbers on import
brews was about what I expected (mostly mid 4s to low 5s).  I could not
determine if the assay was by weight or by volume, but unless I goofed, I
reasoned that if the assay was by weight, the percent by volume would be even
higher.

I guess you could say I was surprised that these tasteless, bodyless beers had
such high alcohol levels.  I had mistakenly assumed that my homebrews were,
for the most part, higher in alcohol, as well flavor.  I seem to recall
discussion in the HBD as well as rec.crafts.brewing indicating that American
beers could be imitated with worts of OG in the 1.035 range.  This seemed
about right to me, based on my experience with what I thought were medium to
heavy OGs.  I understand that unfermentables, like dextrines, contribute
heavily to the mouth feel of a beer, and that bitterness and nose are mainly a
function of hop levels, but I was under some impression that increasing the
quantity of malt in a recipe would give more malt flavor in the finished
product, all other things being equal.  Along with the increased malt flavor
would come higher alcohol levels.  I am also aware that adjuncts like corn and
rice can increase the fermentable sugars and will actually dilute the malt
flavor and mouth feel of the beer while increasing alcohol levels.  Now, I
know AB uses rice and corn, but I am not sure about the others.  I seem to
recall reading "Ingredients: water, malted barley, hops, yeast" off the label
of many different brands of American swill.

Now, I know a lot of people out there are saying "who cares about that swill
the masses drink?", but I am curious.  Is this study faulty?  Or, do the major
American breweries intentionally formulate their beers with large amounts of
corn/rice to limit the body and flavor, but keep up the alcohol?  A corollary
to that question is "How do you brew a beer with almost 5% alcohol using only
malted barley, hops, water, and yeast while still getting a beer with no body
or malt flavor?"

Anyone out there have an explanation?  It seems to me that someone trying to
brew an American-style light lager would have to have an OG closer to 1.050. 
Furthermore, it would seem that some mystical process would have to be used to
remove the body and malt flavor that would come automatically with that much
malt.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1579, 11/15/94