FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Carboy dance part 2 (Rob Emenecker)
  Priming sugars, corny kegging, Sierra Nevada tour (Gary Bell)
  Announcing new W3 site (olsen)
  optimal starter-use times (Michael Mendenhall)
  A few bothersome questions. (DICKERSONP)
  Ingredients for Belgian White ("Crake_Kurtis_LT")
  Re: Posting of competition results (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Priming with Honey (John DeCarlo              )
  Kegging pressures/Long postings (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Moravian barley (Rick Myers)
  5th Annual Dukes of Ale Spring Thing (guyruth)
  Priming with honey calcs (RWaterfall)
  Re: Malt Extracts Created Equal? (Eric W. Miller)
  DWC Based Malt Extracts (Rob Reed)
  Distribution of Fermentables in Primary? (braddw)
  Alot of questions ("Lee C. Bussy")
  Posting results ("Lee C. Bussy")
  Propane cookers recommendation sought (Rich Lenihan)
  Milwaukee Brewpub (Turner)
  Propane Indoors ("Byer, Keith John")
  Aged cans (David Trezza)
  Recipes/Acronyms/FAQs/Starters (Philip Gravel)
  Re: Cornelius Kegging Questions (CRBREW)
  apprenticeships (PGILLMAN)
  Water treatment - when and what? (Fredrik Stahl)
  Maibock recipe/ trub removal? ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  lead in Crystal, A Chemistry Majors point of view (soup-man) Campbell" <m950936 at holloway.nadn.navy.mil>
  Re: North Carolina Brewing ("derek a. zelmer")
  Torque (Dick)
  Hand Towels (Kevin McEnhill)
  DWC Pale Malt (Jim Grady)
  Norm's HBD (Jack Schmidling)
  Decoction w fully mod. malt (JUKNALIS)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue,  4 Apr 95 10:14:35 PDT
From: Rob Emenecker <robe at cadmus.com>
Subject: Carboy dance part 2

This is a follow-up to my post regarding the terrarium carboy that I danced
to vigorously with...

I picked up a 7 gallon carboy yesterday and ingredients to make another batch
of my saturday's quick brew (it has since been aptly named, "April's Fool
Bock"). By the time I got started with the whole thing it was about 11:00 PM
in the evening. The beer is a faux bock (an ale instead of lager... please, no
flames from the purists). Here is a run down of the recipe... just though that
I would pass it along. I'll let you all know how it turns out...

George's April's Fool Bock

4# Laaglander Dutch Bock Hopped Malt Extract
3.3# Beirkeller Dark Malt Extract
0.5 oz Tettnanger Hops (4.3%AA)--flavor, 15 minutes
0.5 oz Tettnanger Hops aroma--added at end of boil
Wyeast 1007 German Ale Yeast

Dissolved malts in 3 gallons of warm water. Boiled for 30 mins. Added flavor 
hops and boiled an additional 15 minutes. Removed from heat and stirred in 
aroma hops. Ice bathed for 20 minutes to 90*F. Added to *new* carboy (which I
have nicknamed "Bertha") that had 2.5 gallons of cold tap water. Added more
tap water to yield 5 gallons. Shook the hell out of the carboy (no I did not
roll it around the floor this time). Shook some more. 

O.G. was 1.045 at 68*F.

Pitched yeast and shook some more. Popped an airlock onto the carboy and went
to bed at 1:00 AM. This morning I am happy to report I have a krausen starting.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
:  "There are only two things in life that                         oooooo    :
:   we can ever be certain of...                                 _oooooooo   :
:                      ...taxes and beer!"                      /_|  oooooo  :
:   Cheers,                                                    // |    ooo   :
:   Rob Emenecker                                              \\_|   oo |   :
:   remenecker at cadmus.com (Rob Emenecker)                       \_|     o|   :
:   Cadmus Journal Services, Inc.                                 |______|   :
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+




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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:24:50 -0700
From: gbell at ix.netcom.com (Gary Bell)
Subject: Priming sugars, corny kegging, Sierra Nevada tour

Dick Dunn, responding to the "Great Honey Grenade Incident" notes that 
"It would be nice if somebody would compile all the sugar info..". Mark 
Hibberd did this back in the fall, I think in #1541(?). Mark has since 
updated the article, called a "Primer on Priming" and it is excellent. 
If it's not in the archives I think it would be a great idea to put it 
there. One of the main points Mark makes is to add your priming sugars 
by weight and not by volume. This is reaffirmed by Dick's comments. 
Honey has twice the sugar content by volume of dried corn sugar. Mark 
says to use the "same *weight*" of honey as corn sugar for priming. 
Mark's article really changed the way I think and go about priming. It's 
ironic that so many people spend so much effort and care formulating 
recipes, measuring, weighing, adjusting hops and calculating bitterness, 
then throw 3/4 cup of sugar in to prime without ever thinking about why 
they are using that volume and what it actually means. 

An additional note on priming details - Spencer wrote a great piece on 
priming with gyle a few months back. Maybe this could be added on to 
Mark's piece for the archive. What do you say, guys?

**********

Jim Fitzgerald asks about getting consistent carbonation in corny kegs. 
There is a table in the ftp archives, but even using that I've had the 
same problems. I think I need a more sensitive gauge, but I seem to do a 
lot of fiddling to get the right carbonation level, and it seems to vary 
from day to day. I, too, would appreciate the collective wisdom here.

**********

Finally, I took the tour of the Sierra Nevada Brewery in Chico, 
California last Thursday. It was like a pilgrimage to Mecca. Bigfoot off 
the tap there is a religious experience, and they have a stunning IPA 
that they are test-marketing in Chico and will probably soon have 
available generally (It's better than Celebration!). But the tour was a 
bit of a disappointment. Isn't SN known for using a hopback? Either they 
wouldn't admit to it or the tour guide didn't know squat [and neither 
did the person in the lab she dragged out to answer my question]. Now I 
don't expect tour guides to know everything -- they're not brewers and, 
in this case, the tours were led by the waitrons from the pub and it's 
rare to find a waitron who knows *anything* about beer. But I was 
puzzled that I couldn't even get an answer on the hopback. But don't 
worry; I didn't let it spoil my dinner and pints! ;-D

Cheers,
Gary

- -- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Bell             "Laxo, non excrucio, poto cervisia domestica."
Lake Elsinore, CA  

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:52:07 +0600
From: olsen at augsburg.edu
Subject: Announcing new W3 site

I hereby announce a NEW BEER related site on the WWW.  Fun fun fun and all
that.  "Smashy smashy"

Jon Olsen's BEER PAGE
URL:
http://aug3.augsburg.edu/jono/beer.html

Good links page to other W3 sites
Info on my homebrewing ventures
Beer fiction
Welcome to Brewspace

Jon Olsen
aka Reaper Man
olsen at augsburg.edu

http://aug3.augsburg.edu/jono/jono.html



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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 1995 09:52:31 -0600
From: Michael Mendenhall <BRCMRC.BRMAIN.MMENDENH at EMAIL.STATE.UT.US>
Subject:  optimal starter-use times

** High Priority **

While thinking about how to bring flexibility into my brewing
schedule my thoughts turned toward what can be the most
flexibility-limiting factor in brewing:  yeast.  Or is that necessarily so? In
the past, I've assumed a starter must be used as soon as the
yeast has flocculated (and built up maximum glycogen reserves) to
achieve optimum results.  But, will my starter remain healthy if I wait up to
two weeks before I pitch it?  Is autolysis as much a concern in yeast
starters as is it is in my main ferment?  Also, would storing my starter in
the refrigerator allow for a healthier "dormancy" period? What say
ye?--Private responses fine; I'll summarize and post.

Michael Mendenhall
mmendenh at email.state.ut
SLC UT


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:56:38 -0400
From: DICKERSONP at aol.com
Subject: A few bothersome questions.

Hello HBDers!

This is my first post here, I'll try not to sound too giddy!  I started
homebrewing right after Christmas.  I'm drinking two batches (not all at once
of course) and have a third in the fermenter.  Several nagging questions keep
coming up everytime I brew:

1)  What really is the need to make a starter?  My fermentations always take
off within 12 hours and usually finish at or near the appropriate final
gravity.  Is it really worth the trouble, with say a Wyeast product?

2)  If I wanted to force them to ferment some more, could I rack to a
secondary and pitch more yeast?  Right now, I'm doing an IPA that started at
1.057 and I'm worried that it might finish way too high.

3) If I do encounter a stuck fermentation with a Wyeast, what would happen if
I re-pitch with dry yeast?  Will the flavor profile be proportional to the
amount of fermentation that each yeast was able to accomplish?

4)  Lastly, I'm really considering trying a secondary.  Won't I run the risk
of oxidation when I rack into the secondary?  It seems that you'd end up with
a headspace full of O2???

Thanks for listening!

===================
Phillip Dickerson
Homebrew Addict
Raleigh, NC
=================== 

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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 95 12:50:28 EST
From: "Crake_Kurtis_LT" <Crake_Kurtis_LT at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Ingredients for Belgian White

     Hi everyone,
     
     My wife wants to brew an all-grain Belgian White, and she's having 
     some difficulty finding a source for bitter orange peel.  She has 
     tried contacting a company that frequently advertises in _Brewing 
     Techniques_ (Frozen Wort), but has only managed to reach their 
     answering machine.
     
     Could those of you who have attempted this style provide any 
     information on sources for bitter (or Curacao) orange peel, or use of 
     alternates (I've heard use of tangerine peel mentioned)?  Any sources 
     local to Northern VA/MD/DC would be most helpful.
     
     Private e-mail would be fine, or post to the digest if you feel that 
     this is of sufficient interest.  I'll post a summary if response 
     warrants.
     
     TIA,
     
     Kurt Crake
     Crake_Kurtis_LT at hq.navsea.navy.mil    -or-
     KCrake at aol.com


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 10:23:46 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Posting of competition results

>>>>> "Jay" == Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU> writes:

Jay> This is just a quick request/reminder to refrain from posting
Jay> competition results in the HBD (we've been over this before).  We
Jay> were doing well there for a while, but in recent weeks there's
Jay> been a flood of competition-related postings that can only be of
Jay> local/regional interest.  Perhaps the people who post these
Jay> results could instead send a one-line message along the lines of
Jay> "results are in, email me for a copy."  That way interested
Jay> parties could follow up on it, while the rest of us could just
Jay> tune it out.

The reason these are happening in a flurry now, is that the season for
competitions has begun.

Now to your "request/reminder".  I strongly disagree with you.  The
original notifications of competitons are made via the HBD and
rec.crafts.brewing so that all brewers have a chance to enter.  In our
competition, fully 25% of our 300 entries came from out of our area.
We are in San Diego, CA and had entries from the East Coast, Midwest,
and even a couple from Canada.  The people who made those entries are
eagerly awaiting the results which, in their summary form, are usually
available the day after the competition (unless the club does not use
a computer).  If the entrant has to wait for their score sheets to be
returned, that will take up to a couple of weeks.  I feel posting the
results to the same forums the competitions are announced in is a
courtesy to the entrants.

It is also informative to brewers who may want to enter local
competitions because these summary sheets can give one a feel for
which categories are "popular".  Unless you have a killer IPA, it
might be worth investing your time in some other category since the
Pale Ale categories are very heavily entered.  If you do not enter,
you will never get a results sheet and never know that, if the results
are not generally published.

While your suggestion of a one-liner is feasible, I think there are
people who actually read the posted results, who would not Email off
for them.  I think it is worth it.  Besides, there is a lot more
useless stuff posted than the total bandwidth of competition results.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 13:38:51 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Priming with Honey

JOHNMAJ at aol.com writes:
>I made a mead once, and in my inexperience decided to prime with honey to
>keep the mead 100% honey. The mead was bottled in 16oz returnable Genny
>bottles. The result of this was exploding bottles, and I do mean Dangerously
>exploding bottles.

>as I only used 3/4 of a cup, and CP says to use 1 Cup.

Well, if you want another data point, I made a mead with 12 lbs. of honey and 
nothing else, basically, except champagne yeast (Wyeast).

It fermented about 14 months before I bottled.

I bottled with 1 cup of honey and was immediately told I made a mistake, so I 
kept them in solid cardboard boxes.

Well, even a year later, everything is more-or-less fine.  No exploding 
bottles, no gushers.  The carbonation is champagne-like--you have to pour four
or five times to fill a glass.

Next time I will use 3/4 cup, but I wouldn't worry too much about 1 cup unless
fermentation wasn't complete.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: 4 Apr 95 13:56:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Kegging pressures/Long postings

Jim writes:
>Is there a chart or anything that can be used to help judge 
>pressure/time for a given CO2 volume?

There's one in the archives and one in an article on kegging in the upcoming
issue of Zymurgy.  You are almost right, Jim, you need to set the pressure
on the regulator based upon temperature and the volumes of CO2 you want in
the beer.  If it foams when you serve, the answer is not lowering the pressure
(your beer will become undercarbonated in a few days) but rather you need more
pressure drop in your liquid line -- make the line from the keg to the faucet
longer or smaller ID.
 
***
Jay writes:
>This is just a quick request/reminder to refrain from posting competition
>results in the HBD (we've been over this before).  We were doing well there for
>a while, but in recent weeks there's been a flood of competition-related
>postings that can only be of local/regional interest...

I believe that what we discussed before was not posting the entire registration
package for a competition -- just posting a few-line announcment and an email
address for more info.  Perhaps it was a different digest (if so, forgive me)
but I recall someone saying how good it was that someone posted the winners
and the average scores for a competition -- so that people would know what it
takes to win the competition.  This is why I posted the results for the
BOSS competition and because there were a LOT of HBD subscribers that entered.
It was not just of regional interest since there were entries from all over
the midwest and the east coast (oddly, a our Texas and west coast regulars did
not enter this year).

If you are concerned about bandwidth, please remember that there is a great
deal of empty space in competition winner lists.  Bandwidth is really only
characters and not lines.  For the BOSS competition, the winners list post was
118 lines, but only 2833 characters -- this post is only 47 lines, but contains
2351 characters.

In summary, I agree that posting entire registration packages benefits far
fewer people and indeed should not be posted, but if there is agreement
that seeing the winning scores is beneficial, then I would support the
posting of results if the average scores are included.

Personally, I think a lot more bandwidth is wasted on long signatures.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 15:07:19 MDT
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Moravian barley
Full-Name: Rick Myers

> Moravian Barley, Grows at altitude, so it malts up better, so the new Coors
> ad on TV states via one non-yuppie type. Anybody ever heard of Moravian
> Barley other than the Coors ad? Not that I want to make a Coors clone, just
> curious.


Coors uses Moravian III exclusively in most (if not all) of its products.
All of Coors barley is contract-grown, whereas other mega-brewers purchase
mostly from the open market.  Coors owns all rights to Moravian III
barley, so if other brewers use it, it is rejected Coors barley.

Rick

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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 95 15:06:11 EST
From: guyruth at abq-ros.com
Subject: 5th Annual Dukes of Ale Spring Thing


Judging for the Spring Thing took place last Saturday at Rio Bravo
brewpub in Albuquerque, NM.  Anyone who wants results e-mailed to them
should send me a request to guyruth at abq-ros.com

Guy

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:53:15 -0400
From: RWaterfall at aol.com
Subject: Priming with honey calcs

In HBD 1697, Dick Dunn says:
>A very rough value for typical corn sugar from a homebrew supply shop will
>give about 4 oz weight for the old standard 3/4 cup dry sugar for priming.
>OK, now remember that this 4 oz weight is going to behave like it's got SG
>of 1.5 (meaning it's going to dissolve down to contribute a little over 2.5
>oz of volume at effective 1.5 SG), and we're comparing this with 6 fl oz of
>honey, which is around 9 oz wt...thus honey contributes somewhat more than
>twice (9/4) as much sugar content per volume as dry corn sugar.

I hate to nitpick, but I will. (Actually, I live for it :-)).  This otherwise
excellent analysis neglects two things. First, 1 fluid ounce of water doesn't
weigh exactly 1 ounce by weight.  It's actually about 1.04 oz. wt.  For rough
calcs this can be neglected, but I thought I should mention it.

Second , and more importantly, not all of the weight of the honey is sugars.
 Charlie P. (TNCJoHB p.90) says the water content of honey is "usually less
than 17 percent".  If we assume  15% by weight, then 3/4 cup or 6 fl oz honey
weighs 6x1.04x1.5= 9.36 oz wt.  Of this, 15% or 1.4 oz wt is water.  Thus you
get 7.96 oz wt of sugars.  Let's call it 8 oz wt as compared to Dick's 9 oz
wt.

 Either way, the result is the same. Overcarbonation and possible bottle
bombs if you use CP's 1 cup recommendation.  BTW, this is found on p182 of
 "The Home Brewer's Companion".  By the same reasoning, I would beware of his
1-1/4 cup maple syrup and 1 cup molasses bottling guidelines in the same
table.  Also, his mead recipes on pp 358 & 359 say 7/8 cup honey for priming.

Dick also says "If you want to prime with honey, use about 1/3 cup per 5
gallons."

I quickly buzzed through the America Online Mead Forum and  found an old
posting recommending the same thing.  I guess that just goes to show you that
two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Bob Waterfall,
Troy, NY, USA

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:54:56 -0400
From: ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric W. Miller)
Subject: Re: Malt Extracts Created Equal?



In HBD #1697, MR ALAN F RICHTER (YXPE55A at prodigy.com) posted
a study of malt extracts and fermentability.
 
Alan, I think this type of study is a good idea, but there
are other factors to consider besides malt extract brand.
 
The biggest factor to think about is yeast type.  You make no
mention of whether or not the same type of yeast was used to
brew all the batches.  Is it possible that when you used the
Brand X and Brand Y extracts you also used Brand X and Brand Y
yeast?  If so, it may be that you just happened to hit on an
unattenuative yeast strain for those batches.
 
Also, how did your technique vary between batches?  Is it
possible that you aerated less thoroughly when using Brands
X & Y than when you used the "name brand" extracts?
 
Laaglander (Dutch) dry malt extract has been widely reported
to have a high content of unfermentables, but I would not
expect it to be as low as 48% fermentable.
 
Cheers,
 
Eric

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:03:36 -0400 (CDT)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: DWC Based Malt Extracts


The owner of the local brewshop said there is a small outfit in
South Carolina?? who is making a full line of malt extracts made
exclusively from DeWolf-Cosyns malt.  What I thought was interesting 
was this company is apparently bypassing wholesalers and doing 
direct sales.  Does anyone have information on this development?

Cheers,

Rob Reed
 

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Date: Tue Apr  4 18:14:12 1995
From: braddw at banjo.rounder.com
Subject: Distribution of Fermentables in Primary?


I have been told that wort sitting in a primary is more dense on the
bottom the fermenter that at the top.  I suspect this would be true for
force cooled extract batches (partial boils topped up), but what about
all grain batches?  I ask because I want to get the most accurate results
from a thief I just recv'd as a gift.  TIA.

Prosit!

   
   **** ---- "There's always time for a Homebrew!" ----  ****
  C|~~| ----------------------------------------------- C|~~|
   `--'  --------------braddw at rounder.com-------------   `--'
          -------------------------------------------



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Date:          Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:24:00 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Alot of questions

 Jay Seigfreid had alot of questions... I'll field a couple:

What's TIA?

Thanks in Advance.

Pretty easy once you have the answer, huh? :)

How to do a wit as an extract......

Um, sorry.  I think you're pretty much outa luck here.  One of the 
predominant characteristics of a Wit is the unmalted wheat.  No way 
to handle that as an extract.  You could always make a half assed 
one.  Use 50/50 malt/wheat malt extract and add corriander and orange 
peel.  Add 10-15 ml of 88% lactic acid at bottling and you will be 
close (but not ribbon winning close).

On the high terminal gravity on the M&F kits..... I think you hit the 
nail on the head... the yeast.  Buy fresh yeast for a kit.  M&F is a 
good yeast, Edme gets good marks as do a few others.  That stuff 
under the cap isn't kept at the best of temperatures.

That's enough for this post... I'm sure others will add in their 
$0.02.



- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date:          Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:28:03 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Posting results

On the posting of results from competitions:

These are not of local/regional interest... not any more so than 
postings of brew pubs and beers I can't get here.  People all over 
the country entered my competition as well as others' and I feel that 
those people should be recognized for their hard work and efforts.

If you don't want to read it... skip it.  NBD.


- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:32:38 -0400
From: rich at lenihan.iii.net (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: Propane cookers recommendation sought


Due to positive responses I received from a previous query regarding SABCO
keg/brewkettles, I purchased one. Now I need, to get a burner. I'm looking
for a good propane cooker. I'm looking for something that is sturdy, built
to last, very adjustable and reasonably fuel efficient. I'll probably be
doing mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional (rare) 10 gallon brew, so
maximum BTU's is not my number 1 priority. I've seen favorable mention of
the Camp Chef cooker and also the Superb line of cookers, but neither of
those look like they'll support a 15 gallon keg (the base of the keg is too
wide) without some modification. 

So what are my choices? I'm inclined to go with a good quality ring burner
rather than the jet burner type. A burner that I could use for other uses
(cooking) would be a plus. Also, I'd like to use this in a relatively
enclosed area (my garage) without too much worrying over CO or propane build-up.

Please respond via email; I'll summarize if there's interest.

 -Rich

rich at lenihan.iii.net


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 17:59:47 EST
From: turner at cel.cummins.com (Turner)
Subject: Milwaukee Brewpub

I was in Milwaukee in February and visited the Water Street Brewery
downtown. Their Oktoberfest was very good. I had another after that 
which was also good, but I don't remember which one. Could have had
something to do with the several beers I had before going to dinner.
The food was also very good. I had a Scotch Egg (sorry arteries, too
good to pass up) and a grilled chichen and pasta dish, again the
memory is cloudy.

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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 95 18:42:00 PDT
From: "Byer, Keith John" <KEITHB at dhs.state.sd.us>
Subject: Propane Indoors

The HBD has given a lot to me, thus I thought I'd return the favor.

Regarding the message below:

>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 95 10:15:07 EST
>From: dsanderson at msgate.CV.COM
>Subject: Indoor Propane Cookers?  Yes I Am!

>Matthew Koster asks about the use of Propane Cookers Indoors...

>I've been brewing all-grain and boiling the wort in a 15 gal Keg on a 
>propane cooker in my downstairs bathroom. Actually I've taken it over 
>completely and put a sign on the door "West Biochemistry Lab".

>It's perfect; window for ventilation, sink and faucet for water and wort 
>chiller, shower stall for wash down, and a place to sit down with plenty 
>of reading material. 

>Regarding any concern about CO, there's plenty of ventilation and if you 
>think about it, it's no different than the billions of gas ranges in use 
>all over the world today.

I used to think the exact same way about CO, until I got the he** scared out 
of me two weeks ago.

I have a newly constructed 3-tier gravity flow system composed of modified 
1/2 bbl sankey kegs located in my 10' x 15' washroom adjacent to my basement 
bathroom .  I am firing this system 36K Btu Superb burners.  My LP tank is 
located outside.  

I didn't worry much about CO, cuz a gas range with the oven and two burners 
running kick out a BTU level similar to my burner.

Just for giggles I thought I'd see how long it would take to boil 6 gallons 
of water.  I opened the 2 basement windows right above the boiler, fired up 
the burner and within 30 minutes I had a rollin' boil.  

My pregnant wife was in the next room reading a book.

Threw in my chiller and within 20 minutes I had it down to 80 degrees.  I was 
very happy with the system's heating/cooling performance, and the best part 
was the fact that it was all done indoors.

The next morning I noticed that I had a nasty headache and my spouse vomited. 
Started to worry.  Went to Walmart and bought a digital readout CO tester.  
Put the unit in my brewing room on top of my fridge about a dozen feet away 
from my burner/boiler.  I repeated the 6 gallon boiling test.

Within 20 minutes the alarm screamed...my heart froze as I looked at the 
digital readout which was reading 999 ppm of CO (yep, 
nine-hundred-ninety-nine).  Certainly  well above the 35 ppm safe level 
indicated in the CO alarms manual...really got scared.

After a few days of shock (knowing developing babies prefer O2) I repeated 
the test with a couple of fans in one of the windows.  The CO level went 
to 75 ppm which is relatively safe for an hour or two.

Consider testing for CO for those who have a gas fired brewery or any gas 
appliance for that matter.  Not even sure if would be safe brewing in an 
open garage on a still day.  Better safe than sorry.  

 -KJB

P.S.  Consumer reports recommends that folk avoid the little Carbon Monoxide 
test cards which usually sell for less than $10.  They have limited accuracy, 
and do not have an audible alarm if trouble rears its ugly head.









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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 16:46:58 PDT
From: davidtz at etak.com (David Trezza)
Subject: Aged cans


Is there any advantage to using cans of unhopped extracts that have been 
sitting on a shelf for years.  I've heard that the product deteriorates
over time, but I've heard people bragging more than once that they are using
a can that's been in the garage since 1985 or so.  What gives?

Dago Brewing Co.

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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 23:34 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Recipes/Acronyms/FAQs/Starters


===> Jay Seigfreid asks about recipes, acronyms, and FAQs:

>I brew only extract and would love to hear from all you extract brewers. 
>I would even go so far as to say that if you will send me your recipes I
>will compile them into a document.  

FYI...  There's 450+ recipes in the Cat's Meow 2 at ftp.stanford.edu.

>What does TIA mean.  Where Is the faq?, man.  I
>keep seeing this but don't have a clue.

TIA = Thanks In Advance.  A number of differenct FAQs are available
in the homebrew archives at ftp.stanford.edu.  Another FAQ is posted
periodically to rec.crafts.brewing.

===> XKCHRISTIAN asks about starters:

>I went and picked up a 3 lb. of DME and decided to make fresh wort for my 
>starters.  Now I am interested in preparing a healthy starter in as little
>time without compromising the quality of it.  I am thinking of taking 5 cups
>water boiling it and adding 1 cup DME chill and pitch in a large jar with 
>air lock.  It should be at high kr. the next day--BREW DAY.  Oh ya, I'd also
>hop the starter with a few pelots.  

Pick up John Palmer's "How to Brew Your First Beer" from the homebrew
archives at ftp.stanford.edu.  He has a nice description on making
starters.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:39:19 -0400
From: CRBREW at aol.com
Subject: Re: Cornelius Kegging Questions

In response to the question of better carbonation methods for C. Kegs, I have
tried 3 or 4 methods, but I still think the good rock and roll method holds
true to the last pint...  Start by racking your finished brew into your
keg... Top of with 5LBS of CO2 and put in fridge for 1 day util keg is at 36
to 38 degrees..... Then hook CO2 to keg again and turn pressure up to 30LBS
PSI,  Rock keg around for 10 to 15 min.....  You will here the air being
absorbed into the brew... Continue until air has stabilized in keg....  Shut
off CO2 and return keg to fridge for 1 day.... Reattach CO2 but wait to turn
on until you have drawn off a pint or so to let extra pressure off.... Then
turn on CO2 at about 10 to 13 PSI .... Enjoy.  Each time you use this method
it will become more familiar and more of a exact science!

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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 00:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: PGILLMAN at POMONA.EDU
Subject: apprenticeships

i am interested in microbrewery apprenticeships and was wondering if anyone
can give me any tips and/or info. i am interested not only in the brewing
side but also in the business side, if not more so. private mail would be 
fine,and if i receive enough suggestions, i'll repost them.
tia
phil-pgillman at pomona.edu


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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:30:48 +0200
From: Fredrik.Stahl at mathdept.umu.se (Fredrik Stahl)
Subject: Water treatment - when and what?

I have been thinking a lot of water treatments. I have no trouble computing
how much of each salt to add to a given volume of my water to make it
resemble the traditional water for some typical style. The problem is
_when_ to treat the water and _how_much_ water to treat.

I can think of several alternatives:

1) Treat mash water only. This could be done after mash-in to beware of
mash pH and to make sure all salts dissolve. (CaCO3 won't dissolve if the
pH isn't lowered by dark grains).

2) Treat sparge water. Problems with dissolving the salts. pH can be
lowered more efficiently with lactic or phosphoric acid.

3) Both 1) and 2) above. This would result in more than 30 liters (8
gallons) of water for a 23 liter (6 gallon) batch.

4) Add the water treatment in the boil.

I would like to hear some opinions on this. I have brewed a kit once which
used Burton salts, and the instructions said to add the salts in the boil.
On the other hand, if you wanted to create similar conditions to the
traditional ones, shouldn't all the water be treated? Do you base your
calculations on the final volume, total volume (mash + sparge), boil
volume, or whatever?

I one recent all-grain batch I treated all the water as in 3) above. The
beer was an IPA and I noted an overpowering harsh "mineral" bitterness in
the aftertaste. Excactly the taste you would like in an IPA, just too much
of it.

I guess this is of interest to the whole of HBD, but private posts are also
welcome. I'll post a summary if anything turns up. (What about the plans
for a water FAQ?)

Thanks.

/Fredrik Stahl          *** Nemo saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit ***



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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 7:24:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: Maibock recipe/ trub removal?

Hello everyone! Several people over the last few weeks 
have requested a recipe for a Maibock.  I searched the 
Cat's Meow and several other publications with no luck.  
I did find some clues, though, in one book...I think it 
was "Brewing Lager Beer" by Noonan. Anyway, I managed 
to come up with the following recipe.  I brewed this past 
weekend, so I can't comment on how good it is (yet!), but 
feel free to give it a whirl and modify it as you may see fit.

Maibock

7 lbs Lager malt
2 lbs Munich malt
1.5 lbs German light Crystal Malt
1/2 lb home toasted lager malt
1.5 ounces Hallertau pellets- boil (4.0% aa)
1/2 ounce Tettnang pellets- boil (3.4%aa)
1/2 ounce Hallertau pellets-flavor (4.0%aa)
1/2 ounce Tettnang pellets-finishing (3.4%aa)
Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager Yeast- 1.0 L starter

	Add 2.25 gallons of 54degC water to crushed grains, 
stabilize temp at 50degC.  Add 1.25 gallons boiling water to 
bring temp to 68-70degC.  Hold for 90 minutes.  Sparge with 4 gallons 
of 77degC water.
	Bring wort to a boil and add boiling hops.  After 30 minutes, 
add flavor hops.  10 minutes before end of boil, add finishing hops.
Chill, etc., pitch yeast.

My o.g. was a little low (1.050)...I am still trying to improve my 
extraction eficiency :).  If I were to do this again, I would have 
definitely used more grain; my impression is that for a Maibock, 
you want to target an o.g of around 1.060 or so.  


On to something else:

Forgive me for such a basic question, but does the general 
wisdom of the Digest say to remove trub or to leave it?  Or is 
this a matter of personal preference?  I have been getting into 
the habit lately of pouring the entire cooled wort into a fermenter 
and letting the hop pellet shrapnel and trub settle out, *then* 
transferring it to a second clean fermenter.  I have found that 
I take a fair cut in yield. For those of you who use hop pellets, 
is there any reason why one could not simply leave the hops in there?  
Do most of you strain the cooled wort to remove hop material?  
If some of you would be willing to email me privately, 
I'd be interested in hearing exactly what you do after the boil 
to remove hops and trub.  I don't want to build a hop-back, but I'd 
like to hear what clever ways there are of addressing this issue without 
taking a serious cut in yield.  If there is a fair response, 
I will summarize to the digest.

TIA for all the help.  See you 'round...

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov



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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Midn John (soup-man) Campbell" <m950936 at holloway.nadn.navy.mil>
Subject: lead in Crystal, A Chemistry Majors point of view

Hi all!  I've only been receiving the HBD for two days now and it seems 
like many people like to "argue" on this publication.  Well I would like 
to settle the dispute concerning lead in crystal and the dangers of it.
	Lead is supported in the crystal as an oxide
	Ethanol (drinking alcohol) can and will leach the lead out

Basically this means that over a period of time the concentration of lead 
in solution will increase.  The EPA has set a 5 ppb limit on lead in 
drinking water as "safe" but over as little as 3 months, a sherry or 
scotch can leach out enough lead from lead crystal to raise the 
concentration above 60 ppb.
	Now it's up to you whether or not you like lead in your cocktails 
and if you drink fast enough then the stuff doesn't sit around long 
enough to accumulate a significant concentration.

Well at any rate, thanks for your time!

May your glass ever be full and your beer effervescent
- ---John


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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:36:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "derek a. zelmer" <zelmeda4 at wfu.edu>
Subject: Re: North Carolina Brewing

Sorry to use the digest, but I couldn't get through to the posted address.
Brewing is legal in NC, and you can call these suppliers for more information

		BrewBetter Supply	Brewbetter at aol.com
		Alternative Beverage	800-365-2739

	I also know that limited homebrew supplys are available from City 
Beverage Here in Winston-Salem.

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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 07:46:31 -0500
From: Dick at ccgate.dragonsys.com
Subject:  Torque

>> foot-pounds...  the unit should be pound-feet

>I think that x foot-pounds = 1/x pound-feet.  Either that or x(fp) =
>x(pf).  Either way, it's a pretty simple conversion.

No, it's not that simple.  A foot-pound is a unit of work, or force
applied over a distance.  A pound-foot is a unit of torque, or force
applied perpendicular to a moment arm, and is the rotational
analog of force.  One is not the inverse of the other.

Rich Benedict (dick at ccgate.dragonsys.com)


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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 07:16:07 EDT
From: kevinm at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu (Kevin McEnhill)
Subject: Hand Towels

Howdy,

Seeing as how the only thing that you need when you are hitchhiking 
though the universe is a hand towel, I thought that it would be quite 
stylish of me to have a bar towel. But, where should I look for them?
There are a few bars around here (Detroit,MI USA) that have them on the
wall, but they were privet collections of the owner and he got them on 
his Austrailian beer tour. Seeing as I am having touble just getting to
work, I don't foresee a trip over seas any time in the near future (even
if it is for beer). Does anyone know where I can get some of these things?
Can I write to the breweries and buy a few? If so, how am I going to get
the addresses?

Well, I have to look like I'm working :-)

Don't Panic!

**********************************************************************
*                             *  /|~~~~~| I was told by my wife that *
* kevinm at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu * | |     | if I brew one more batch   *
*                             * | |     | of beer she would leave me!*
* Kevin McEnhill              *  \|     |                            *
*                             *   |_____|  I'm going to miss her :-) *
**********************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:26:51 -0400
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: DWC Pale Malt

There has been some discussion lately about DeWolf-Cosyns Pale Malt and
cloudy beers.  I have been using the DWC Pale & Pils malts for all of my
all-grain brews lately.  My two latest batches, a Porter & Smile's
Brewery Bitter (from the CAMRA book "How to Brew Your Own Real Ale at
Home") both used DWC Pale Malt and are both very clear.  My previous
two batches were bitters and were both rather cloudy.  As far as I can
tell, the main difference is that the two latest batches had Irish Moss
in the boil.  I rehydrated 1 Tbs of Irish Moss in warm water at the
start of the boil and added it to the kettle 15 min before the end of
the boil.  I did not rehydrate it starting the night before as is often
recommended because I forgot.  I usually lucky to remember to add it at
all!

I don't know if this is the answer but it is at least more data.

- -- 

Jim Grady
grady at an.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group
Andover, MA

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 07:34 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Norm's HBD

 
 Aside from a couple of points, I think Norm's description of the HBD and my 
 contributions are pretty much on target.  He seems to have fallen victim to 
 the general disease that permeated the Digest during the period when I was 
 most active and his opinion that I violated net protocols by commercializing 
 my postings, is the major point with which I take issue.  I consider the rest 
 of what he said about me a compliment, intended or not.
 
 I, like everyone else, find blatant commercials and advertisements on the 
 HBD, unwanted and crass.  What some have condemned me for amounts to nothing 
 more than new product announcements and participation in discussions 
 concerning the products which I have designed and manufacture.  I offer no 
 apology for anything I have ever posted in this regard.
 
 We must keep in mind that there is a great deal of envy from some of the old 
 timers, for a newcomer, who drops in out of the blue and turns a gaping hole 
 in the market into a successful business.  Some of these folks have been 
 trying for years to make a living off homebrewing and many of them would stop 
 at nothing to prevent and outsider from doing it overnight, with one single 
 idea.
 
 To say I conjured up conspiracy theories is to ignore reality.  I received 
 phone calls from retailers on the East Coast reporting that someone had told 
 them that I am a Nazi and they would organize a boycott of their shops if 
 they did business with me.  I also received email from supporters who were
 "warned" of similar evil tendencies of mine via the computer network.  Call 
 it what you wish, but is boils down to simple jealousy.  
 
 Not only did Jay Hersh start a "Jack-Free Forum" but he blatantly and 
 regularly offered plans, on the HBD, to convert a pasta maker into a grain 
 mill.  Nothing wrong with the idea but his motives and MO were rather 
 transparent.
 
 BTW, to have your own "Jack-Free Forum ", one need only leave my name or any 
 reference to my products out of the subject line.  I am so busy these days 
 that I only have time to skim titles and don't even download the Digest if 
 nothing concerns me.
 
 To put the commercialism into perspective, I call your attention to the 
 individual who sells upside downs fermenters and plastic wort boilers.  This 
 person was the harshest critic of mine and if you count the times he jumps 
 into discussion of his products, you can't help but wonder if we do not have 
 dual standards here.  I have never seen him criticized for anything and I 
 even get it in the public press.  
 
 The next item I call your attention to is the current promotion of the 
 "Valley Mill" by a "friend" of the manufacturer.  Do you suppose I would have 
 been left off the hook if I simply had a "friend" post MALTMILL (tm) 
 promotional information?
 
 While on that subject, I note that the claim is made that this mill is all 
 stainless steel.  This is the same fraudulent claim that Glatt advertises for 
 his mill when in fact, the most important part of the mill (the rollers) are 
 not made of stainless and the bearings and gears are made of plastic.  I 
 offer stainless as a very expensive option and wonder what happens to ss in 
 Canada that makes it so affordable.  The ss rollers for a MM cost me $72 and 
 most of this is the cost of the ss.  So, I respectfully ask the "friend" of 
 the manufacturer to tell us just what the rollers are really made of and how 
 they turn in the mounting frame without the use of bearings and if it is 
 backed up with a lifetime guaranty.
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 08:55:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: JUKNALIS at ARSERRC.Gov
Subject: Decoction w fully mod. malt

Hi folks,
	When one buys malt from your friendly neighborhood homebrew store
I presume you are getting fully modified grain.  Is there any advantage
to doing a multiple decoction mash on such malt?  Does it release other
compounds from the grain?

	thanks
		Joe

So many beer recipies, so few liver cells.



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1699, 04/06/95