HOMEBREW Digest #1754 Sat 10 June 1995

Digest #1753 Digest #1755

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses (Kirk R Fleming)
  Ice Beer (Phil Hitchman)
  mercury FAQ? (mitch)
  Widgets ( Brian Wilson)
  a real old thread ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Diacetyl rests (Rich Larsen)
  The ideal gas law... (PHIL=MEYERS)
  Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results (PHIL=MEYERS)
  Bombs Away! (kpnadai)
  UK vs US Crystal Malts (Glen_Baldridge)
  Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1745 (May 31, 1995) (LimaWiskey)
  Thermodynamics Digest (RWaterfall)
  Brews to Style (Ken Schroeder)
  Ice, ice, baby. (Russell Mast)
  What temp to ferment Wheinstephen WY 3068? (Brian Pickerill)
  Re: nitrosamines (Jeff Frane)
  Thermodynamics Digest (Larry Bristol                 )
  Re: ice beer (Dennis Davison)
  Scottish Ale (barber eric stephen)
  ice beer? (Robin Hanson)
  Pet Peeves, Con't. (Don Rudolph)
  Starters & Ageing (Beersgood)
  Scrubbing air (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Oregon/Washington/Idaho--Regional Competition (Glenn Tinseth)
  Help with Silica Gel (Jim R. Fortes)
  Re: Belgian yeasts (Steve Zabarnick)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 23:35:05 -0600 From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming) Subject: CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses #1751 We Just Won't Let the CO2 Thread Die. Larry says: - -------------------------------------------------------- > - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F and another at > 500psi/45F and we put a line between them. Will gas flow from one to > the other? No - they are at equilibrium. The argument here is: two closed systems, each at equilibrium, when connected form a new single closed system which will be at equilibrium. No way. The two systems are EACH at equilibrium, but not wrt one another. There's a 350psi differential and I suggest yes, flow will happen--it doesn't matter *how* the differential got there, be it from a temperature difference or not. It's still there. A transverse membrane in the pipe would feel the same differential regardless of the temperatures on either side of it (he wildly speculates, with an air of pretentious authority). > How come CO2 at 17psi/75F does not "flow" to the keg where the CO2 is > only at 10psi/45F? Because these are equivalent pressures. I say there *is* flow between them, and if your empirical results indicate otherwise, I say there MUST be a one-way valve in the system somewhere between the low-pressure guages used to measure each pressure. I still see no way to maintain a pressure gradient in a short line between two tanks no matter what you do to the temperature of the tanks. [However, you *can* keep the keg connected to the regulator with the keg at a higher pressure than the regulator setting...it's not an open system internally but contains a back-flow preventer (so I'm told).] Getting back to beer: > In order to achieve the desired amount of carbonation, if your CO2 is > at 45F you want one pressure, and if it is at 75F, you want another. In both cases the pressure AND temperature of the gas *at the surface of the beer* are identical over time, given the regulator gauge is accurate at both temperatures. If the beer temperature is identical in both cases, you have two identical, steady-state systems from the perspective of the CO2-beer interface. Neither my thermo nor gas dynamics texts contain anything remotely useful (or any mention of "equivalent pressures") so until I get my keg gauge in and do some experiments, I'll concede any further argument (but will of course continue to look for some way to get in the last word). #1751 Keith Royster asks about sight glass materials: - ----------------------------------------------------_ > I read about placing a metal tube over the plastic tube...I like this > idea, but wonder if the metal tubing will be enough of a heat barrier > ...to protect 'normal' hardware type plastic tubing The tubing I used to build the sight glass you refer to is the white polyethylene stuff sold at hardware stores for icemaker feed line. This tubing softens markedly at kettle temps, but yes, the aluminum sleeve serves to maintain the tubing shape and shields it from kettle radiation. The liquid in the tube is out away from the kettle and free to conduct heat away on all sides, and is small in mass. This helps keep the sight glass liquid temp well below the stuff in the kettle. Two suggestions based on several boils conducted with this sight glass: 1) small diameter tubing such as mine (3/8" OD) tends to trap bubbles during the boil and the bubbles are annoying and must be watched-for to ensure accurate readings, and 2) The polyethylene tubing is somewhat opaque--it's easy to read when boiling that 10W40 crankcase lube you call a "stout", but a bit challenging when doing a light ale...then there's the following: 3) "Polyethylene is noted for stress cracking when used in conjuction with many types of barbed fittings. To eliminate the potential of stress cracking, it is recommended that only push-to-connect or compression type fittings are used." NewAge Industries catalog. My glass was built for about $8 on short notice...I'll replace it someday with either a real sight glass (see the McMaster-Carr catalog) or one built using crystal clear PVC (or Teflon) tubing sold for that purpose. A place called NewAge Industries in PA (215-657-3151) sells both of these: one product called "Clear 40" is a sched 40 PVC described as "highly corrosion resistant as well as transparent...used in chemical, pharmaceutical and food plants as well as laboratories and hospitals". Sold in 10ft lengths only, but they'll cut it to ship it. Said to be formulated to FDA standards for food contact. In 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and larger IDs up to 6". Hardness of 81 on the Shore D. The clear Teflon tube is just outrageous for heavy weight stuff (for example a 5/8" ID 3/4" OD tube is 10.40 per foot, 25 ft minimum--you'd need Spencer to order in bulk on this one, AND pick up the tab :-). No interest in NewAge nor have I ordered from them. KRF Colorado Springs Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:21:17 BST From: phitchma at mpc-uk.com (Phil Hitchman) Subject: Ice Beer Steve brown writes: > I don't know if any one has notice the prevalance of 'ice' beers in > the local bars. Yes, worrying isn't it ! > i have tried to make an 'ice' beer, with not much success. Why ? > from what i understand ice beer is made by frezeing the brew after > fermentaion. the way i have followed was: > > place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer, > and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus > removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should > give a stronger result. > > the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap. Sounds like you got it right Steve ! Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a flame but that stuff really is vile so why bother ? I would have thought there were easier ways of getting the effect you're after (ie. more sugar in the wort or adding a bottle of Vodka to the beer before bottling !). You may be right about the method of manufacture but the whole thing is really just a hype. ICE is really just a cool word to use in advertising and is aimed straight at the 20 to 30 age bracket. By the way, did you know that the ice that gets strained off that stuff is bottled and sold as Bud ? :-) Phil Hitchman. hitchmap at hoskyns.co.uk phitchma at mpc-uk.com \\/\// OO || /_ .) "Three pints of Monkey Wrench and a bottle of /|\ /\ Bud with a straw please" \_/ \ PS. I'm sitting here in my asbestos suit so flame away...I don't care ! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:59:48 +0100 From: mitch at molbio.su.se Subject: mercury FAQ? I'm a little out of touch, and I'd like to get information on the best way to handle mercury - how long in the boil? how to best dry-mercury? different grades, etc...., but I hate to waste the bandwidth. Is there a mercury FAQ? Mitch in Stockholm Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:19:19 +0000 From: B.Wilson at strath.ac.uk ( Brian Wilson) Subject: Widgets Hi there, I'm a newbie to this list so please excuse me if this topic has already been mentioned in previous mailings. An article has been flowing in the british media regarding faulty widgets in cans of Tetley Bitter. Apparently due to a manufacturing error the widgets in the bottom of the cans can actually come away from the bottom and float to the top. It is then possible for the drinker to the swallow said widget. All of the ofending cans were recalled and we are told that this problem is an isolated incident. I wonder if anyone else has come accross this problem in drinking from cans with widgets in them. For those not sure what a widget is, let me quickly explain it is a gadget at the bottom of the can wich releases gases in to the beer to give that freashly pulled taste and look. Cheers For Now, and drink on, .--~~,__ ....,-------`~~'._.' `-,,, ,_ ;'~U' _,-' ,'`-__; '--. (_/'~~ ''''(; Brian Wilson Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 8:41:52 EDT From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com> Subject: a real old thread Nitrosamines were discussed on HBD years ago. The conclusion. Your more likely to die from a car accident on your way to the supermarket. Then from the nitrosamines in beer and grilled food eaten with mercury amalgen fillings. Lets get back to beer and brewing. Lee Menegoni Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:37:31 -0500 From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen) Subject: Diacetyl rests Don Put responded to my post in private e-mail, but I thought it would be some good info for the masses... >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) >From: Don Put <dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu> >To: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org >Subject: Diacetyl rests >X-UIDL: 802551335.003 > > >Rich, > >I'm sure someone will respond to your post in the HBD, but I thought >I'd send you some of the info I've dug up in my lagering research. > >>>Diacetyl is another chemical that will give you a butter/butterscotch >>>flavor in beer; lagering at a low temp (<50F) will cause the yeast to >>>reabsorb the diacetyl for food. > >>This is incorrect. The cool fermentation results in lower ester production >>thus a less fruity, more crisp beer. The diacetyl is reabsorbed when the >>temperature is raised up to around 60-70. This is sometimes refered to a >>diacetyl rest. Some lager yeasts will require this rest otherwise you'll >>wind up with a beer that would taste pretty darn good poured over popcorn. > >Actually, it isn't incorrect; it's just another more traditional method >of lagering. With the emphasis on turnaround time in the industry today, >many brewers use an accelerated lagering schedule with a higher temperature >diacetyl rest such as you suggested. > >Here's an outline of a traditional lagering schedule: > >"For an authentic contential lager, ferment at 48-51F for 1 week, drop temp >2F per day until it is 42F. Rest here 2-4 days (diacetyl rest), then >drop 2F per day until you hit 31F. Hold 4-8 weeks depending on style. >Either lager in kegs, and bung to create natural CO2, or krausen with >fresh krausen (fermenting yeast & wort, at 7-15% of volume). Those who >"bring up" the temp are preaching the American fast lager approach. This >is where ferments are done quite warm (up to 60F) and lots of diacetyl is >produced that requires reduction by the yeast. It has been demonstrated that >bringing the temp up to 68-70F for 2 days or so will reduce the diacetyl >to "normal" levels. Taste tests of experienced panels have shown a preference >for the traditional techniques." (Sorry, but I can't find the reference.) > >>From Noonan: > >"It is relatively common in modern fermentation cycles to raise the >temperature of the post-kraeusen beer to 52F, and to hold that temperature >for two to seven days. This is a *diacetyl rest*. It encourages oxidation >of yeast-excreted acetohydroxy acids to vicinal diketones, and it >reinvigorates the yeast culture so that it metalbolizes diacetyl, thereby >removing it from solution." _Brewing_Lager_Beer_, pg. 156. > >Also, on page 655 in volume 2 of _Malting_and_Brewing_Science_ there's a >nice table that outlines European and American lagering schedules. So, >although there is a trend towards shorter, higher temperature conditioning >periods for lager beer, there is still more than one way to skin the >proverbial cat. > >don (dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu) => Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org> ________________________________________________________________________ Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL. Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263 Spice is the varity of life. ________________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:14:11 CDT From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU at bangate.compaq.com Subject: The ideal gas law... Larry Bristol writes: >Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F >and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them. Will gas flow >from one to the other? No - they are at equilibrium. Ok folks, lets pull out our physics and/or chemistry books, dust it off and look at the idea gas law. PV=nRT P= pressure V=volume n=moles of gas R=universal gas constant T=temp in Kelvin You can, through a bit of math, get: P(1)V(1)/n(1)T(1) = P(2)V(2)/n(2)/T(2) Since it is a closed system, n(1)=n(2), V(1)=V(2) leaving you with P(1)/V(1)=P(2)/V(2) therefore the system will be in equilibrium once all of the CO2 that will dissolve into the beer at the temperature of the beer is complete. If you don't believe me, do the math yourself. It works! Larry is correct. Let the flames begin! Phil The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODE to retrieve it. The original file name was 'ATTRIBS.BND'. begin 666 ATTRIBS.BND M0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`$%45%))*```````5&AE(&ED96%L M(&=A<R!L87<N+BX````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`%!(24P at 345915)3```````````````````````````````````````````` M``````````````````````````````````!Q:2PV*V]+:W!J```````````` M````````0F5Y;VYD(%!R;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$`````````!`!J M!```````````````````````````5&5X=$,#3&%R<GD at 0G)I<W1O;"!W<FET M97,Z" at H^4&QA>2!W:71H('1H:7, at :'EP;W1E8VAT:6-A;"`M('-U<'!O<V4 at M=V4 at :&%V92!O;F4 at 0T\R(&)O='1L92!A="`X-3!P<VDO-S5&"CYA;F0 at 86YO M=&AE<B!A="`U,#!P<VDO-#5&(&%N9"!W92!P=70 at 82!L:6YE(&)E='=E96X at M=&AE;2X at (%=I;&P at 9V%S(&9L;W< at "CYF<F]M(&]N92!T;R!T:&4 at ;W1H97(_ M("!.;R`M('1H97D at 87)E(&%T(&5Q=6EL:6)R:75M+ at H*"D]K(&9O;&MS+"!L M971S('!U;&P at ;W5T(&]U<B!P:'ES:6-S(&%N9"]O<B!C:&5M:7-T<GD at 8F]O M:W,L(&1U<W0 at :70 at ;V9F(&%N9"!L;V]K(&%T('1H92!I9&5A(&=A<R!L87<N M" at I05CUN4E0*"E`]('!R97-S=7)E"E8]=F]L=6UE"FX];6]L97, at ;V8 at 9V%S M"E(]=6YI=F5R<V%L(&=A<R!C;VYS=&%N=`I4/71E;7` at :6X at 2V5L=FEN" at I9 M;W4 at 8V%N+"!T:')O=6=H(&$ at 8FET(&]F(&UA=& at L(&=E=#H*"E`H,2E6*#$I M+VXH,2E4*#$I(#T at 4" at R*58H,BDO;B at R*2]4*#(I" at I3:6YC92!I="!I<R!A M(&-L;W-E9"!S>7-T96TL(&XH,2D];B at R*2P at 5B at Q*3U6*#(I(&QE879I;F< at M>6]U('=I=& at at 4" at Q*2]6*#$I/5`H,BDO5B at R*2!T:&5R969O<F4 at =&AE('-Y M<W1E;2!W:6QL(&)E(&EN(&5Q=6EL:6)R:75M(&]N8V4 at 86QL(&]F('1H92!# M3S( at =&AA="!W:6QL(&1I<W-O;'9E(&EN=&\ at =&AE(&)E97( at 870 at =&AE('1E M;7!E<F%T=7)E(&]F('1H92!B965R(&ES(&-O;7!L971E+B` at 268 at >6]U(&1O M;B=T(&)E;&EE=F4 at ;64L(&1O('1H92!M871H('EO=7)S96QF+B` at 270 at =V]R M:W,A"DQA<G)Y(&ES(&-O<G)E8W0N("!,970 at =&AE(&9L86UE<R!B96=I;B$* M"E!H:6P at ("$!`P!#`QH!`0`!````&0`!``$``0!#`P```````#C_```````` MD`$``````````$U3(%-A;G, at 4V5R:68````````````````````````````` M``$``0`6``$`%P`7``$`&`!D``$`90"O``$`L`#F``$`YP#G``$`Z`#H``$` MZ0!.`0$`3P%/`0$`4`%6`0$`5P%7`0$`6`%C`0$`9`%L`0$`;0%[`0$`?`&4 M`0$`E0&E`0$`I at &F`0$`IP'+`0$`S`',`0$`S0'S`0$`]`'T`0$`]0$3`P$` M%`,\`P$`/0,]`P$`/ at -$`P```````````````&0``:0!`4 at #`>P$`9`&`30( >`= at )`7P+`2`-`<0.`6 at 0`0P2`;`3`505`? at 6```` ` end Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:22:58 CDT From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU at bangate.compaq.com Subject: Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results Harry Writes: > I, for one, am leaning toward the Fass-Frisch metal tap based upon >the answers I've received. Now to find the cheapest price! Here's my two cents. My girlfriend got me one of the Fass-Frisch plastic CO2 tapes for Christmas. All has been going well with it. It drips a little (like a 1/2 tsp per day in the fridge). However, we went camping over Easter weekend and I brought along 4 minikegs to astonish my friends with my brewing prowess. Unfortunately, upon installing the first CO2 cylinder (a real Fass-Frisch on, not a no-namer), as soon as the cylinder was punctured, the handle spilt in two and handle/cylnder was torn from my hand and ended up about 100 yards downrange. Scared the piss out of me. Fortunately, my neighborhood brewshop replaced the handle at no charge. However, I am looking into having the neighborhood welding shop fashion me a new handle out of metal tubing. Therefore, I recommend the system but go for the metal. Added bonus: in some areas (here in Texas) some of your major liquor stores carry the minikegs full of beer for about US$12 (vs. US$8 for an empty at the brewshop). My brewshop sells the replacement plugs for US$0.95. Just cut the one out of the old keg and away you go. Phil The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODE to retrieve it. The original file name was 'ATTRIBS.BND'. begin 666 ATTRIBS.BND M0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`$%45%))*```````4W5B:F5C=#H at M36EN:2U+96< at 4W5R=F5Y(%)E<W5L=',````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`%!(24P at 345915)3```````````````````````````````````````````` M``````````````````````````````````!Q:2PV*S%4:W!J```````````` M````````0F5Y;VYD(%!R;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$`````````!`"V M!0``````````````````````````5&5X=.D$2&%R<GD at 5W)I=&5S. at H*/B` at M("` at ("` at 22P at 9F]R(&]N92P at 86T at ;&5A;FEN9R!T;W=A<F0 at =&AE($9A<W,M M1G)I<V-H(&UE=&%L('1A<"!B87-E9"!U<&]N"CYT:&4 at 86YS=V5R<R!))W9E M(')E8V5I=F5D+B!.;W< at =&\ at 9FEN9"!T:&4 at 8VAE87!E<W0 at <')I8V4A" at I( M97)E)W, at ;7D at ='=O(&-E;G1S+B` at 37D at 9VER;&9R:65N9"!G;W0 at ;64 at ;VYE M(&]F('1H92!&87-S+49R:7-C:"!P;&%S=&EC($-/,B!T87!E<R!F;W( at 0VAR M:7-T;6%S+B` at 06QL(&AA<R!B965N(&=O:6YG('=E;&P at =VET:"!I="X at ($ET M(&1R:7!S(&$ at ;&ET=&QE("AL:6ME(&$ at ,2\R('1S<"!P97( at 9&%Y(&EN('1H M92!F<FED9V4I+B` at 2&]W979E<BP at =V4 at =V5N="!C86UP:6YG(&]V97( at 16%S M=&5R('=E96ME;F0 at 86YD($D at 8G)O=6=H="!A;&]N9R`T(&UI;FEK96=S('1O M(&%S=&]N:7-H(&UY(&9R:65N9', at =VET:"!M>2!B<F5W:6YG('!R;W=E<W,N M("!5;F9O<G1U;F%T96QY+"!U<&]N(&EN<W1A;&QI;F< at =&AE(&9I<G-T($-/ M,B!C>6QI;F1E<B`H82!R96%L($9A<W,M1G)I<V-H(&]N+"!N;W0 at 82!N;RUN M86UE<BDL(&%S('-O;VX at 87, at =&AE(&-Y;&EN9&5R('=A<R!P=6YC='5R960L M('1H92!H86YD;&4 at <W!I;'0 at :6X at ='=O(&%N9"!H86YD;&4O8WEL;F1E<B!W M87, at =&]R;B!F<F]M(&UY(&AA;F0 at 86YD(&5N9&5D('5P(&%B;W5T(#$P,"!Y M87)D<R!D;W=N<F%N9V4N("!38V%R960 at =&AE('!I<W, at ;W5T(&]F(&UE+B` at M1F]R='5N871E;'DL(&UY(&YE:6=H8F]R:&]O9"!B<F5W<VAO<"!R97!L86-E M9"!T:&4 at :&%N9&QE(&%T(&YO(&-H87)G92X at ($AO=V5V97(L($D at 86T at ;&]O M:VEN9R!I;G1O(&AA=FEN9R!T:&4 at ;F5I9VAB;W)H;V]D('=E;&1I;F< at <VAO M<"!F87-H:6]N(&UE(&$ at ;F5W(&AA;F1L92!O=70 at ;V8 at ;65T86P at ='5B:6YG M+B` at 5&AE<F5F;W)E+"!)(')E8V]M;65N9"!T:&4 at <WES=&5M(&)U="!G;R!F M;W( at =&AE(&UE=&%L+ at H*061D960 at 8F]N=7,Z("!I;B!S;VUE(&%R96%S("AH M97)E(&EN(%1E>&%S*2!S;VUE(&]F('EO=7( at ;6%J;W( at ;&EQ=6]R('-T;W)E M<R!C87)R>2!T:&4 at ;6EN:6ME9W, at 9G5L;"!O9B!B965R(&9O<B!A8F]U="!5 M4R0Q,B`H=G,N(%53)# at at 9F]R(&%N(&5M<'1Y(&%T('1H92!B<F5W<VAO<"DN M("!->2!B<F5W<VAO<"!S96QL<R!T:&4 at <F5P;&%C96UE;G0 at <&QU9W, at 9F]R M(%53)#`N.34N("!*=7-T(&-U="!T:&4 at ;VYE(&]U="!O9B!T:&4 at ;VQD(&ME M9R!A;F0 at 87=A>2!Y;W4 at 9V\N" at I0:&ELQP`#`.D$P``!``$````*``$``0`! M`.D$````````./\```````"0`0``````````35, at 4V%N<R!397)I9 at `````` M`````````````````````````0`!``X``0`/``\``0`0`%L``0!<`)<``0"8 M`) at ``0"9`-$#`0#2`](#`0#3`^0$`0#E!.4$`0#F!.H$```````````````` M9``!I`$!2`,![`0!D`8!-` at !V`D!?`L!(`T!Q`X!:!`!#!(!L!,!5!4!^!8 at "``!E ` end Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 09:24:22 PDT From: kpnadai at adsnet.com Subject: Bombs Away! >From: Martin Schwan <schwmar at charlie.acc.iit.edu> >Subject: Starter questions > >I have a few questions about wort for yeast starters. I brew up >a small batch of hopped wort a la Charlie P. for use as starters. >I store the wort in capped brown bottles at room temp. for lack >of frig. space. I follow good sanitary procedures and the wort >goes into the bottles hot, so I'm not worried about beasties. I >am wondering though, how long can I store the wort this way? > I did this once and didn't get to make a starter until about two weeks later. As I grabbed the bottles, I notice more sediment than there had been when I bottled it. Oh, well. It must be cold break. What I had in my hands was a live grenade. All of them were contaminated with something that smelled very nasty and built up a lot of pressure. None of them burst, but opening them was an adventure! The problem is you can never expect STERILE conditions at home. For most of us, SANITARY is good enough. Any beasties left in our wort are quickly overwhelmed by the yeasties. Which is why underpitching is risking contamination. What you and I did was bottle SANITARY wort, and the inevitable beasties, no matter how few, are having a field day right now. They think they died and went to beastie heaven. "All this perfect wort, for US?" With refrigeration, they won't grow much until you bomb them with your yeast starter-starter. But in that nice room temp environment,look out! Do yourself a favor. Take out that potato salad from Memorial Day and put your wort in its place. Another difference between clean and sterile was demonstrated to me when I worked at a veterinarian while I was in high school. The doctor had just finished with a patient, and the exam table was covered with nail clippings, hair, drool, and a few other fluids we do not need to discuss. The doctor turned to me and said, "Do you know the difference between clean and sterile?" I replied no, and he proceeded to spray the mess with a nasty disinfectant we used to sterilize surgical instruments that could not be autoclaved. He pointed to the mess and said, "THAT'S sterile." Then he wiped it up and said, "NOW it's clean." Brew Bayou, Kevin Nadai Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 10:25:32 PST From: Glen_Baldridge at ccmail.medicus.com Subject: UK vs US Crystal Malts In response to my queries to make a Brown Ale with a noticable Carmel taste (Drake's Ale clone), Dave S and Jim B have stressed the importance of using UK crystal instead of US (80Lov). Any insights into the difference? Do production procedures or base grains or something else make the difference? I have the choice of a 60L UK (M&F) vs 80L US (Breiss), which will give more caramel flavor? Glen Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:28:09 -0400 From: LimaWiskey at aol.com Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1745 (May 31, 1995) In a message dated 95-05-31 06:05:20 EDT, you write: >Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:36:38 -0400 >From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry) >Subject: Hg > > A quick question. Should Mercury be added to the boil, just >after >boiling, or to the secondary? > > >Harry Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:34:39 -0400 From: RWaterfall at aol.com Subject: Thermodynamics Digest Larry Bristol says in hbd1751: "Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them. Will gas flow from one to the other? No - they are at equilibrium." - ------------------------------------------ I'm sorry Larry, but I don't agree. This stuff definitely isn't intuitive, so I can understand your confusion. (I took at least 5 college courses that started out with PV=nRT and it only started to sink in by Jr. year) The driving force of fluid flow is pressure and only pressure. While the temperature of a gas very definitely affects it's pressure, that does not mean that your two bottles are "in equilibrium." They just contain the same amount of CO2. If we use your example at temps and pressures that give a gas, I haven't tried it but I'd bet $20 (I almost said "a week's pay" but I don't want to put that much money where my mouth is) it would flow from the high pressure bottle to the low pressure bottle. This is because a higher pressure bit of gas will push against a lower pressure bit of gas until the pushes are the same in both directions (i.e. same pressure). The increase in pressure of the originally low pressure bits is due to a decrease in their VOLUME. This will happen with all the little bits of gas in the whole system rather quickly (pressure waves travel at the speed of sound). If the two bottles were linked by a heat conductive coupling instead of a hose, heat would flow from the warmer to the cooler one until the temperatures were equal (assuming no refigerator). Let's use a related hypothetical situation where we know the outcome. There's a magic trick/Physics Lecture where you put a match in a jar, put an orange on top and see what happens. The match heats up the air inside the jar forcing some out due to it's higher pressure (and using some up in the combustion). When the match goes out, the air in the jar starts to cool down. This lowers the pressure and sucks the orange into the jar. More accurately, the greater pressure of the ambient air trying to get into the jar pushes the orange out of the way. Before I'm accused of comparing beer and oranges, I just want to say that I'm aware that the two situations are not completely analogous but I think it helps in visualizing the pressure difference concept. BTW, your atmospheric example doesn't fly because the atmosphere is anything but in equilibrium. I think anyone who's witnessed a hurricane or tornado (intense flows caused by pressure differences) can attest to that. I think the problems you described in your hbd1747 post, may have been due to temperature induced regulator inaccuracies rather than any new laws of thermodynamics. All that theory taken care of, I suggest we just fiddle with all the knobs and dials until the beer comes out the way you like it. Maybe we should find an engineering group to continue this discussion. Bob Waterfall, B.S. Chem. Engg. '81 Rensselaer Polytech. Inst. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 08:55:15 PDT From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder) Subject: Brews to Style In HBD 1750 Spencer wrote about errors in the AHA Styles Guideline. In particular he mentioned that it is difficult to tell the difference of a barley wine with an OG of 1.127 from the AHA guidelline of 1.120. He went on the say that the AHA guideline for dopplebock does not match the German law for dopplebock OG. He continued with a statement concerning any color above ~30 SRM is black and don't get hung up on color, it counts for only 4% of the total score. One possible conclusion from these statements may be : A beer does not need to meet all of the parameters of a style to be entered into that style. Many brews have won catagories, even best of shows, with out being 100% compliant to a style GUIDELINE. These are guidelines, not unbreakable rules! If a beer has the basic characteristics of a style, enter it in that classification! If the brew appears to cross catagories, enter it in both. I brew a kolsh which matches the kolsh guideline. Many judges have advised me to enter this beer a an American Pale Ale. I enter the brew into both catagories and get close to the same score by different judges with basically the same comments. The brewer who claims his beer doesn't fit into a catagory, I say hog wash. Your beer just doen't meet someone else's guidelines (the AHA usually). Yes, you will be judged by the guidelines for the style you enter, but that doen't mean a brew that violates the guideline (but has the characterisiticsis of the style) is disqualified or can't win. In fact, why do the "big" beers do so well in competition? Entering a competition is the best way to see what characteristics your brewwery has. Enter all or most of your brews. From the comments on the score sheets of all your entries, a pattern will develope. That pattern is your brewery's characteristics. From this you may decide to keep a characteristic or change it. Our brewery (my wife brews without my help) has the characteristic of to much hops (hopheads :-). But after surveying many score sheets, it became clear that our flavor hops were imparting to much bitterness into our brews. I decided to try cutting the Alpha Acid content by using hops with less acid content. I kept the hoppy characteristic and balanced the maltiness of my brews. My score improved, my beers are consumed faster by our friends. Thanks for letting me say my piece. Ken Schroeder Sequoia Brewing Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:08:20 -0500 From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> Subject: Ice, ice, baby. > Subject: ice beer? > any one with any thoughts on the subject? Yuck. Why bother? > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 I suppose it does, yeah. -R Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 1995 11:22:25 -0600 From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill) Subject: What temp to ferment Wheinstephen WY 3068? Hi, Subject line says it all. There are no clues in the Yeast.faq and the package just gives guidelines for ale and lager. My impression is that this is not quite either one, right? This will be my first attemp at a weizen, basically using this yeast and a couple boxes of NW Weizen extract. As always, any suggestions would be appreciated. What would happen at 75F?!? Thanks! - --Brian K. Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu> Muncie, IN Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:23:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com> Subject: Re: nitrosamines Kit Anderson wrote: > > Subject: Nitrosamines > > Now that the mercury thread is fizzling out, I hesitate to ask about > this topic. BUT...when I was taking organic chemistry in college, the > professor said that nitrosamines are produced in the malting process > and are an unfortunate and inevitable component in beer. He said the > same for smoked foods but also stated that he would die before giving > up beer and jerky. (One of the best combinations since an Imperial > stout and a Hoyo de Monterey Double Corona ;) > > I searched the archives for occurances of 'nitro' and 'amine'. Nada. > Except about smoked grains. > > New thread; are there actually carcinogens called nitrosamines in > beer? And if so, in significant concentrations? > I *know* it's in there somewhere, although it's been several years. Start back-tracking to whenever Jack Schmidling first appeared in these august pages, and you'll find the introduction of the topic. Also the dismissal of it. It's true that direct firing of malt can create nitrosamines, but the malting industry is fully aware of this and has developed processes to combat it: either indirect heating, or the use of sulfur (as I remember) to reduce it. You ain't gonna get cancer from your beer (unless you do your own malting, perhaps, and don't take precautions). - --Jeff Frane Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 10:40:15 cdt From: Larry Bristol <larry at bristolpc.bmc.com> Subject: Thermodynamics Digest > All that theory taken care of, I suggest we just fiddle with all the knobs > and dials until the beer comes out the way you like it. Maybe we should find > an engineering group to continue this discussion. That's where this discussion belongs. Obviously, the examples I used in an attempt to explain my observations were flawed. For that, I have received a more than adequate supply of flames. Thanks to all who contributed! But it does not change the observations in any way. The original question concerned whether the CO2 bottle, regulator, et al should be placed inside or outside the refridgerator, which I consider to be a valid area for discussion in this forum. I happen to be someone (of what I would guess to be a relative few) who have experienced both ways. It was all the "fiddling with the knobs" I had to do to make "the beer come out the way I like it" after moving the CO2 bottle from the inside to the outside that I was attempting to explain. - --- begin soapbox mode --- Unfortunately, that information seems to have gotten lost because of my bad examples, the rantings of those who take delight in the mistakes made by others, and by those who think any data that does not fit their pet theory must be discarded. If the self-proclaimed experts knew so much, it seems to me that they should have answered the original question in the first place rather than waiting to criticize someone who did. - --- end soapbox mode --- > I think the problems you described in your hbd1747 post, may have been due to > temperature induced regulator inaccuracies rather than any new laws of > thermodynamics. Sorry, I should have learned my lesson by now, but I could not pass this without comment. If this is the case, then it is a SEVENTY PER CENT error! My original point was that the pressure reading has to be interpretted based on its temperature. Whether the gauge is faulty, or it is a "new law of thermodynamics", or something in-between, it supports my statement. However, there is nothing to indicate that either the regulator or gauge is faulty. They certainly are not precision instruments, but they are doing the job for which they were designed. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 1995 11:43:01 -0500 From: ddavison at earth.execpc.com (Dennis Davison) Subject: Re: ice beer |From: steve brown <steve at zaxxon.demon.co.uk> | |place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer, |and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus |removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should |give a stronger result. | |the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap. #1 Why would you want to brew an American/Canadian Ice Beer anyway? I shutter at that thought. #2 Your process is somewhat correct. The major thing you left out was to re-add water back to the beer after you removed the ice. Freezing and extracting ice is distillation. Distillation is Illegal in the US unless you happen to have one of those nice little distillers licenses. But I just noticed that your in the UK so here goes. The mega's have to re-dilute the beer back to it's original strength. The initial freezing helps concentrate several flavor characterisitcs as well as alcohol. For the Am/Can ice beers there alcohol content is generally not to much greater than 5% ABV anyway. This roughly means in a 23 liter batch of 4% ABV you only need to remove about 2 liters of ice/water to get that strength. The other problem you may have is the passing of the beer through a sive. Are you oxidizing it at this point? Freeze it in a keg next time. Transfer under CO2 pressure to a clean keg. Dennis Davison ddavison at earth.execpc.com ...........To boldy consume, where no others have consumed before.............. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:36:35 -0400 (EDT) From: barber eric stephen <barber_e at einstein.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Scottish Ale OK, OK, OK, all I've been making recently are easy drinking, low potency beers, what can I say the summers in Columbus need an easy drinker. Now I am ready to venture into a very high alcohol Scottish Ale. I am using two packs of Wyeast 1728 (Scottish Ale), but beyond that I have some research to do, and my research usually starts with the invaluable knowledge of all ya all out there. So if you got the knowledge please share it with me. By the way this will be an all grain recipe, 5 gal. batch. Is a Munich malt used for scot ale? Should I make my own Munich? All and any info on this subject greatly appreciated!! Somebody posted there concerns about drinking too much home brew, like a 6 pack a week. If you are still out there and still concerned about how many beers you drink let me offer my one step solution. Make your beer 3 times as potent as what you can buy. This way by normal standards you can drink a 6 pack, but benefit from an equivalent 18 beers. Am I missing the point? I do not think so. TIA, Eric Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:58:40 -0600 From: rhanson at nmsu.edu (Robin Hanson) Subject: ice beer? Steve Brown asked about ice beer His method was as follows: >place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer, >and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus >removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should >give a stronger result. The problem with this method is that it is not legal in either the US or the UK. Alcohol has a lower melting point than water so when you un-freeze the wort you get a distillation, the "ice" that remains is water and the "liquid" is alcohol/water. I have tried a few US/Canadian ice beer and they are all IMHO disgusting, I would stick with un-ice beer, if you want more alcohol put more sugar/malt in the wort. If it does not ferment out add a wine yeast after the kraussen dies down. There is a German Eisbock but I have never tried it. Robin Robin Hanson Rhanson at nmsu.edu Return to table of contents
Date: 08 Jun 95 14:05:55 EDT From: Don Rudolph <DON at nova.mhs.compuserve.com> Subject: Pet Peeves, Con't. Can we add to our Pet Peeve list =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=2 0=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= 20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Can we, huh? Thanks. Don Rudolph Seattle WA don at nova.mhs.compuserve.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 14:14:55 -0400 From: Beersgood at aol.com Subject: Starters & Ageing My first question is about yeast and starters. A lot has been said but it is difficult to sort through it all. What exactly, if any, are the advantages to liquid yeast cultures? Is there an advantage? What are the cons of dried yeast? And how should I go about making a quart starter? Next - when does ageing begin? If I let the beer sit in the secondary for a week after fermentation is complete, then prime and bottle does that week work for ageing? If I keg and force carbonate, should I age first then force carbonate just before I drink it or carbonate and then age it? Please E-mail and I will compile the results and post. Thanks. Dave Petersen Crete, NE Return to table of contents
Date: 8 Jun 95 13:21:00 -0500 From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Scrubbing air Cary writes: >4. Aerate using an aquarium pump and air stone for about an hour. I >sometimes have to break the hour down into ten minute segments to avoid a >"foam over". I also scrub the air by passing it through an airstone >submerged in hydrogen peroxide before it reaches the airstone in the wort >- -- kind of like my old water pipe from the '70s ;-) Coincidentally, I've seen this method publicized twice in the last two weeks (the other place being a local club newsletter). I'm afraid that it does not sanitize the air as one might expect. Think about it: only the air that is in direct contact with the H2O2 will be sanitized; since the contact is only at the bubble walls, the air inside each bubble still contains dust and bacteria; when the bubbles rise and pop, they dump their microbiologically active cargo into the headspace of the vessel and subsequently your wort. A tube stuffed with dry cotton or one of those disposable medical filters would do much better at filtering out nasties. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:22:10 -0700 From: gtinseth at teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth) Subject: Oregon/Washington/Idaho--Regional Competition Saturday, June 24th is when the first-ever Mill Creek Classic Homebrew Competition will be held. It is open *only* to Oregon, Washington, and Idaho brewers, although an exception can probably be made for any BC brewers brave enough to make the trek. This is an HWBTA sanctioned event and will be held at the Willamette Brewpub in Salem, Oregon. The winning brewer will collaborate with Jeff Cruise, the Brewpub's owner/brewer to brew a full-size commercial batch of the Best of Show brew, and will be the object of much cheering, media coverage, and free beer. I need the following two essential ingredients: o brewers willing to enter excellent homebrewed beer o judges willing to drink/evaluate excellent homebrewed beer If you want to fill either of the aforementioned positions, email me with your snail mail address and I'll forward the proper packet (judging or entry) directly to your mailbox. Thanks for the bandwidth, Glenn Tinseth gtinseth at teleport.com 503-873-2879 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 13:37:50 PDT From: JRF7 at can02.pge.com (Jim R. Fortes) Subject: Help with Silica Gel In the ongoing quest to eliminate chill haze I have purchased some silica gel. The package says to stir in .5 OZ at bottling time. First question, do I need to rehydrate it first or just throw it in dry? Here's my concern, I don't bottle anymore just keg. I also force carbonate. So if I throw the silica gel into the keg, let it sit for a few days then chill and force carb the keg what can I expect to happen? Will taking the keg and shaking the jebeezes out of it defeat my purpose? What do the big guys do, I read that they use silica for the same purpose. TIA Jim Fortes jrf7 at pge.com Belmont CA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:39:29 -0400 From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick) Subject: Re: Belgian yeasts Jim Busch writes (about Celis Pale Bock) in HBD #1752: >I >found the Pale Bock on Vat while having dinner in Brugge and it was a >wonderful Belgian Pale Ale, right in there along with Palm and DeKonnick. Which brings me to a question. On a trip to the Netherlands last year, I tasted Palm and DeKoninck for the first time. These beers are wonderful, very drinkable brews, which have a wonderful balance of maltiness and yeast character (especially the DeKoninck). Has anyone out there tried to reproduce these beers? Is the DeKoninck yeast available? Would any other yeast strains serve as an acceptable substitute? Perhaps the Yeast Culture Co. Belgian ale strain? I've read that these beers are decoction mashed. Any comments? Steve Zabarnick Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1754, 06/10/95