FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: dispensing pressure (hollen)
  What _is_ this stuff? ("Steven W. Smith")
  Re: Dock Street Bohemian Pilsner ("Prior, Mark")
  Electric stove problem solved, summary. (ED IACIOFANO)
  RE: pressure ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Stuck Sparge using a Phalse Bottom (Curiouser and curiouser...)
  Puffed Wheat (Randy M. Davis)
  Re: Brita Filters (Mitch Hogg)
  Hose, Pressure drop (Kelly Jones    Intel Portland Technology Development)
  Corn Brew (M.Marshburn/D202)
  Big Three ("William D. Knudson")
  Re: Shipping HB and trivia (Gary McCarthy)
  Aeration filtration/Klages (Algis R Korzonas)
  SA misleading? (Kelly Jones)
  New WYeast strains (Chris Kagy)
  home made ice box (Eric Palmer)
  Re: Black & Tan (Mark E. and Diane Stull)
  PET/Yeast starters ("Philip Gravel")
  Kegging Wheat Beers and forced carbonation (dludwig)
  Yeast Starter in an Oil Bath (HuskerRed)
  quality, marketing and industial brewing (Rob Lauriston)
  Pilsner and Wyeast 2112 (Allen Born)
  Re: SS airstones (hollen)
  cider fermentation question (W_GLADDEN)
  British Beer Engines (Tom) <tsieja at ford.com>



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 09:32:00 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: dispensing pressure

>>>>> "Algis" == Algis R Korzonas <korz at pubs.ih.att.com> writes:

Algis> When the beer begins to flow, you have velocity in the hoses and
Algis> therefore you have pressure drop.  HOSE LENGTH AND DIAMETER *DO* MAKE
Algis> A DIFFERENCE IN THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE DROP FROM THE TANK TO
Algis> THE FAUCET.  If you have too short a hose or too large a diameter
Algis> hose, you will have not enough pressure drop from the CO2 tank to the
Algis> faucet and too much pressure drop from the faucet to the atmosphere
Algis> and subsequently the CO2 will come out of solution instantly as the
Algis> beer comes out of the faucet (read FOAM).  

Another factor which makes a big difference is decent taps.  I can use
the exact same beer, pressure, hose and hook it up to a picnic tap and
get a glass of foam, but hooked up to a regular bar tap, a perfect
pour every time.  Not disagreeing with Al, just an addition to.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:07:37 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: What _is_ this stuff?

  By now everyone remembers George Fix's mash schedule for lagers, right? 
40C, 60C, 70C.  Would one use a different schedule for an ale?  If so, what?  
Looks like this will be the Winter I'll finally get it together to try an 
all-grain batch.

  In the techniques/trivia/is-it-just-me category:  I've consistantly found 
that if my wort is in immediate danger of boiling over, a small amount of hops
tossed in calms Mr Bubble down to a manageable level.  This is typically my 
first addition of hops - (very) roughly 3 tablespoons of pellets hurled 
downward through the foam.  My assumption is that the hops oils did the trick.
Any comments from Those Who Have Clues?

  Lastly, I've given up on asking for Spaten Optimator recipes specifically - 
what's _your_ favorite extract, partial or all-grain doppelbock recipe?  Feel 
free to point me at those cat documents.  I'm looking to create a strong, 
malty, hoppy, chewy ale as my holiday beverage and would appreciate input.  
So far, the planning goes thusly for 5 U.S. gallons:

8-10 lbs Briess amber dry extract (actually, 2 big ziplocks, full)
1 lb crystal malt
1 lb cara-munich 
2-3 oz German Hallertau, A=4.7 (or therabouts).
Wyeast German Ale yeast(?)

I'm mostly looking for some creative hopping input from y'all.  I've made 
something very similar and called it a Belgian Ale (since that's the yeast I 
used).  TIA, beerpeople.
Steve
  _,_/|   Steven W. Smith
  \o.O;   Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College.  Glendale Az.
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu or smith at peabody.gc.maricopa.edu
    "I see a BIG telephone bill in your future!" - my Psychic Friend

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 10:59:00 EST
From: "Prior, Mark" <PRIORM at imsint.com>
Subject: Re: Dock Street Bohemian Pilsner


Eugene Sonn writes:

>>       I have a quick request for  any recipes  cloning Pete's Wicked
>>Winter  Brew and  Dock  Street's  Bohemian  Pilsner.

According to the Dock Street Restaurant and Brewpub in Philadelphia,
their Bohemian Pilsner is:

MALTS:    
     Briess 2 Row - 96%
     Munich 10L - 2%
     Caramel 40L - 2%

HOPS:     
     32 IBU's
     Boiling:       Northern Brewer
     Finishing:     Saaz
     Dry Hopping:   Saaz

WATER:    
     As soft as possible

MASHING PROGRAM:
     Step infusion with rests at 145F and 150F
     Mash off at 168F

BOILING TIME:
     90 minutes

YEAST:
     Bottom fermenting lager strain which produces as little
     diacetyl as possible

FERMENTATION:
     Day 1-6:       Primary fermentation  at  48F
     Day 7-11: Rack to secondary, free rise to 54F for
               diacetyl rest and conditioning
     Day 12-30:     Cold lagering  at  34F
     Day 31:        Filtration and kegging
     Day 32-39:     Cold storage in keg
     Day 40:        Release

This recipe is produce at the brewpub.  The brewer mentioned that
their bottled version of their Bohemian Pilsner is slightly different.

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 14:09:22 -0500
From: iaciofano at leds.shr.tdh.qntm.com (ED IACIOFANO)
Subject: Electric stove problem solved, summary.


Hello,
     I'd like to follow up on my post awhile back regarding my brewing 
slowly destroying my stove.  First, I'd like to thank everyone that 
responded.  I received many good tips and suggestions, the bulk of which 
suggested switching to propane.  
     The conclusion reach on why my burner connector was turned into a 
pile of soot was that it was due to using a large pot (16 qt.) with the 
burner on HI for a long period (> 60 min.).  The large pot causes
heat to get trapped and build up underneath the stove top.  Over time
this caused the failure of the burner connector.  I've also learned from 
the manufacturer that using a pot with a diameter greater than the burner 
diameter is not recommended, especially if one is going to be using HI 
heat for a long time.
     What I ended up doing was purchasing a canning kit from the same 
place where I bought the stove.  The kit consists of the large size 
element with a extra heavy duty support underneath, and a replacement 
control knob.  The burner is raised 1/4" higher than the conventional 
burner to reduce the possibility of excess heat being trapped underneath 
the stove top.  The wattage is the same as what I've been using (2600W).
The instructions state that the kit is specifically for use with HI
heat applied to large, heavy pots for long periods of time.  Gee, 
sounds just like what I'm doing.  
     I'm going to give this a try.  If this works then the only 
remaining problem is how to keep the wort drops off of the stove top.
One suggestion was to line the stove top area with aluminum foil.
I'll see how this works.  As for the propane suggestions, even though
everyone that suggested the propane cookers enthusiastically recommended
them, I don't mind waiting.  I use extract with specialty grains.  I 
can't see myself switching to all grain anytime soon.  With the family 
schedule I brew whenever I can fit it in, which usually means late/rainy 
nights or when babysitting while the spousal unit is out for the night.  
Therefore the stove approach is just fine for now, and if this works out 
I might move my operation to the basement without fear of blowing myself up.  
That would keep everyone happy.  
     Thanks again for all of the help.  If anybody is interested in more
info. on the canning kit feel free to E-mail me.  If there is enough 
interest I'll post the details here.


Regards,

/Ed_I

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Date: 20 Nov 1995 11:20:11 PST
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: RE: pressure


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  RE: pressure
Date: 1995-11-20 12:51
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Al writes:
> Wade isn't the first person to write this and I can see why it
 is easy to make this mistake... When the beer begins to flow, you have
velocity in the hoses and therefore you have pressure drop.  HOSE LENGTH AND
DIAMETER *DO* MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE DROP FROM
THE TANK TO THE FAUCET.  If you have too short a hose or too large a
diameter hose, you will have not enough pressure drop from the CO2 tank to
the
faucet and too much pressure drop from the faucet to the atmosphere
and subsequently the CO2 will come out of solution instantly as the
beer comes out of the faucet (read FOAM)...

Al, that was my point exactly. The pressure drop along the hose itself DOES
change, as you point out, even though the pressure drop through the entire
system does not. Indeed, the increased pressure drop at the faucet is the
result of going to shorter or fatter hose. We are saying the same thing, now
it's clearer.

Keep in mind, however, that even in a dynamic system, the total pressure
drop IS static. The pressure inside the keg remains the same. The pressure
of the atmosphere remains the same. Thus the difference between them must
also remain the same. Again, the thing that's different is WHERE the
pressure drop takes place. I hope your post and this one clear it up for
those who may have misinterpreted my original message.


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:35:50 -0800
From: ruderman at esca.com (Curiouser and curiouser...)
Subject: Stuck Sparge using a Phalse Bottom

Hi,

Has anyone ever experienced a stuck sparge using a Phil's Phalse Bottom in a 10
gallon Gott cooler?

Yesterday, I replaced the system I had in place of the Gott spigot with some
brass hardware.  The system I had originally put in place was a drilled rubber
stopper.  The rubber stopper was fit into the rubber ring that held the
original Gott spigot.  When I tested the system, it leaked (I think the teflon
sealant (food grade)), so I replaced it with new brass fittings.  No leaks.

The Phalse Bottom was connected to the brass fittings via a short copper 3/8"
tube (as it was before).  This time, I noticed that the Phalse Bottom's
connection point was a little higher than the point where the copper tube met
it (may be 1/3"), so I cut a little (1") extra plastic tubing to allow for this
difference and thought nothing more of it.

   |                | |
   |       +--V     | |                     ++++  = Copper
   |       |   V+++[===]++++VVVVVV          [===] = brass fittings
   |  ------------  | |          V          VVVVV = plastic tubing (flexible)
   | -            - | |          V
   --------------------          V
                                 V

When the sparge stuck (no wort whatsoever coming through), I transferred the
whole batch to an old plastic bucket with spigot and carried on from there
(don't worry...).  On inspection, there did not seem to be any grain stuck
under the Phalse Bottom (clogging things up) or in any of the tubes/fittings. 
I did notice a good size air bubble stuck in the plastic tubing between the
Phalse Bottom and the copper tube (inside the cooler).  Any ideas as to whether
or not an air bubble like this can cause a sparge to fail?  Anyone else have an
experience like this one?

Thanks,
Robert Ruderman
Seattle, WA.

(ruderman at esca.com)





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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 12:35:07 MST
From: Randy M. Davis <rmdavis at cal.mobil.com>
Subject: Puffed Wheat

Brian Yankee asked about the use of puffed wheat to substitute for 
torrified wheat in a mash. It just so happens that a friend of mine
tried puffed wheat in a witbier when he had no unmalted wheat on
hand. I tasted the resulting beer and I would strongly discourage
the use of puffed wheat. The problem is that in making the cereal
version the wheat is toasted. The only flavor it adds to the beer
is toastiness. I had to struggle to finish one glass of my friend's
wit because of the intensity of this flavor. This may not put 
everyone off as much as it does me but when I was a kid puffed
wheat was often the only breakfast cereal in our home and I learned
to really hate it. When you put enough of it in beer it tastes just
the same as the bowl of cereal. BTW this is nothing like the flavor
of toasted malts which I find extremely pleasant in beer.

I don't know whether torrified wheat used in British recipes is 
toasted to the same degree or not at all since I too have never
seen any. If it is indeed toasted I know I would not use it in a
beer.

Brian, my advice is to try something else. 


>Last night while grocery shopping, I was struck by the idea of using 
>Puffed Wheat cereal for the torrified wheat. Except for the addition of 
>some B vitamins I don't think that Quaker adds anything to the cereal. 
>They do use a preservative on the packaging, though.
 
>So, am I completely insane for even considering this, or am I on to 
>something?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Randy M. Davis   rmdavis at cal.mobil.com   Calgary  Canada  (403)260-4184 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:24:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitch Hogg <bu182 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Brita Filters

On Mon, 20 Nov 1995 WattsBrew wrote:

> For anyone interested in the subject,  I just performed a little test.  My
> water department report says that my average ph is 7.9.  I tested the water
> directly out of my Brita filter and the ph is approx 5.0.  The test strips I
> used were narrow range (from 4.6 to 6.2).  I bought them in my local homebrew
> shop.

Bill, I don't know how long the water was sitting in your Brita before 
you performed your experiment, but I have been told that a good way to 
lower water pH is to just let it sit for a while ( don't remember the 
science involved, but it has something to do with the high-pH water 
reaching some sort of equilibrium with the air around it). As I said, I'm 
unsure of your methods (for example, did the tested water come right out of 
the tap and through the Brita?), but perhaps the lower pH reading had 
something to do with the fact that the water had been sitting in your 
fridge for a while.

Just a thought,

Mitch.

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 12:20:49 -0800
From: Kelly Jones Intel Portland Technology Development <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Hose, Pressure drop

Wade writes:
> The overall pressure drop is the difference
>between the pressure in the keg and the pressure in the
>atmosphere. So, by changing the size or length of hose you
>are simply changing the proportion of the pressure drop that
>is taken along the length of hose.

And then Al said:
>When the beer begins to flow, you have velocity in the hoses and
>therefore you have pressure drop.  HOSE LENGTH AND DIAMETER *DO* MAKE
>A DIFFERENCE IN THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE DROP FROM THE TANK TO
>THE FAUCET.  If you have too short a hose or too large a diameter
>hose, you will have not enough pressure drop from the CO2 tank to the
>faucet and too much pressure drop from the faucet to the atmosphere

I think the difference between these two posts is that Wade is talking
about the total pressure drop, and Al is talking about the pressure
drop between two specific points, namely the keg and the point in the
hose just _before_ the faucet.

The bottom line is this: (excuse me while I shout) THE TOTAL PRESSURE
DROP FROM THE KEG TO THE GLASS IS ALWAYS EQUAL TO THE KEG PRESSURE.
Regardless of hose length, diameter, etc. If your keg is at 10 psi,
then there will be 10 psi of presure drop from the keg to the glass.
It's that simple.

Having said that, the effect of increasing hose length, or reducing
hose diameter, is to slow the flow of beer. Flow rate equals pressure
drop times resistance, and increasing length or decreasing ID
increases resistance. By slowing the flow rate, you are reducing
turbulence in the hose, fittings, and faucet, which reduces foaming.


Kelly 
Portland, OR

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Date:     20 Nov 95 15:31:37 EST
From: M.Marshburn/D202 at cgsmtp.uscg.mil
Subject: Corn Brew

HBD

     I saw back a couple months ago an individual who had made a turn of the
century beer using corn as an adjunct. Could you reply to me with your
recipe, mash temps/time, please. The time is right for me to ferment lagers
in my garage now, or ales in the basement. I remember you saying the beer
turned out pretty good.

Mike  -  M.Marshburn/D202 at cgsmtp.uscg.mil


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Date: 20 Nov 95 17:09:21 EST
From: "William D. Knudson" <71764.203 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Big Three

Al says "..AB chose to test market their Weissbier at some college spring break
town in Texas..."  I can't address just where-all it was marketed.  Was it at
GABF?  I dunno.  It was marketed here in Colorado, I can tell you that.  I think
that one problem is that Weissbier is not a crowd pleaser in the US.  You either
love it or hate it.  I think the 'hate it' part could have scared off the
marketing execs.

Al also says, "You are presenting a very narrow picture because it supports your
position."  Poor defense.  I submit what supports my position.  I love trappist
beer, is there any chance of converting more than half of the 'Joe sixpacks' in
the room?  No way, its not for everybody.

Al, I'm glad that you are vigorously evangelizing good beer.  You say "Some are
beyond help, most are willing and many do change."  I believe you.  But am I
left with the inference that *most* change?

Our beer experiences are left with us from our life experiences.  My dad used to
try and get me to mow the lawn for a dollar.  Not interested, how's bout *a*
beer of my choice?  Not bad at fifteen years old, eh?

Are there people out there prime for conversion to good beer?  Absolutely!  Is
it a majority?  Isn't that all we are arguing about, the numbers?  I think alot
are beyond help, but maybe their kids aren't. (Gee whiz that grass is looking
awful tall!)

Were the attendees in the board rooms of the big breweries responsible?  That's
a never ending debate.  Will their greed be their demise?  Stay tuned, it doubt
it.

Al says "American tastes were changed because of lack of selection and now they
are going back because of availability".  Why was there a lack of selection, how
did that begin?  Did some guy say "we'll offer less choice and mark it up, we'll
make a killing!"  Prohibition, depression, who knows?  Al, I'll bet you take
responsibilty for your own tastes, so do I.  I haven't met anyone who says 'Wow,
this Anchor Steam is great!  How could I have been screwed by industrial
revolutionist greed all these years!'

Beer evangelism: no rest for the weary!

Keep up the good work, Al!

Bill


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 16:30:02 -0700
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Shipping HB and trivia

In HBD 1888, Michael Kerns(mck at yar.cusa.com) writes:  I, uh, have this friend,
yeah yeah that's it, a friend who just moved from Chicago to Salt Lake (last
remaining stronghold of 3.2 beer).

Mike, you may have meant this tongue-in-cheek, but I'm sure that you know that
most beers sold in the US are 3.2.  I would say that all beers sold in
supermarkets are 3.2.  Possible reasons for not knowing?  My opinion:  The
brewries do not allow that info to be put on labels.  Ok so maybe that is an
ATF regulation or maybe it is because of the breweries.  But what beer
companies do express their alcohol content on the label?   Many wineries do
it, all hard liquor does this, why not beers?

To clarify, in Utah, all beer sold in commercial outlets(stores, convience
marts), all brewpubs(micros), and what we call beer bars(ie the Dead Goat in
downtown SLC, gotta stop in there if you get here!) can, by law, sell only 3.2
beer.  No other alcohol(maybe 3.2 wine coolers) do they sell.  The state-run
liquor stores and the private clubs can sell the higher alcohol content
beers(that is if you know which is which!) and hard liquor.  I believe all the
beer coming out of the micros for sale at the private clubs is 3.2.

Take it easy

Gary McCarthy in SLC                      When the demon is at your door, 
gmccarthy at dayna.com                      in the morning it won't be there no
more.
Remember: frig is an activity!!         Any major dude will tell you!

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 14:39:20 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Aeration filtration/Klages

Jason writes:
>I have an idea about aeration filtration.  Take two hole stopper  
>insert a tube that reaches near the bottom of your vessel and one 
>that is about an inch past the stopper.  Fill the vessel half  
>full with 190 proof and stopper.  Connect the long tube to air pump 
>and the short on to the air stone.

This method for making "sterile" air has been mentioned in HBD numerous
times and even published in Brewing Techniques and it *still* doesn't
work, I'm afraid.  You cannot sanitize (much less sterilize) a gas
by bubbling it through a sanitizer (maybe if you bubbled it through
liquid iron or something, but then it would be the heat that was doing
the sanitizing).  Each bubble of the gas would still contain just
as much live microbiota as the gas did and only the microbiota that
happened to be on the gas/liquid interface would have any chance of
being killed.

Another poster writes:
>I used to think until very recently that klages was a brand name, but
>I finally figured out that it is a term
>to refer to any American pale two-row malted barley.

No quite.  Klages is a strain of barley... so are Harrington, Morvavian III
and Maris Otter.  Every few years growers change to a new strain because
the old one tends to succumb to disease.  There is a small amount of
Klages still grown in the Pacific Northwest, but much of the 2-row barley
grown in the west and almost all grown in the midwest are now Harrington.
Homebrew retailers, book authors and magazine authors have misused the
term Klages over the years enough so that many brewers think it's a brand
name.  The same goes for Maris Otter.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 17:47:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Kelly Jones <k.jones at m.cc.utah.edu>
Subject: SA misleading?

In the oft-repeated Sam Adams debate, Greg Walz  (WALZENBREW at aol.com) wrote:
>in my opinion Jim Koch's done nothing "misleading" in any of the ads
>I've seen.

I couldn't let that one go unanswered.  I've seen very few Koch ads
that were _not_ misleading.  To wit:

(1) "My great-grandfather's recipe" (or some such nonsense) - Sam
Adams Boston Lager was designed by brewing consultant Joseph Owades.

(2) Cranberry 'Lambic' - A lambic is a beer sponataneously fermented in
the Lembeek region of Belgium, has flavor components contributed by a
wide variety of microflora, such as Brett, Dekera, Pedio, and Lacto.
SA Cranberry Lambic is none of these.

(3) "My Doppelbock contains half a pound of malt per bottle" - Well,
I'm not sure about this.  If this is true, then his contract brewers
are only getting about 17 point-gals/lb., which is about half of what
most competent contract brewers get.  

(4) "Winner of the Great American Beer Festival, 5 years running" -
Never happened.  The GABF tried to prevent him from using slogans like
this, until he sued them.

(5) "Father of the microbrewing revolution" - Don't make me laugh.

We each have to make our own decisions about what products we buy, and
whether we judge a product strictly on it's own merits, or whether we
take into consideration the actions of company management.  Many
people choose not to patronize companies which promote racism,
destruction of the environment, etc.  Some choose not to buy beer from
false-advertising, lawsuit-happy, suit-wearing businessmen.  I prefer 
to buy beer made by brewers, not lawyer/marketers.  To each his own.  

Kelly
Portland, OR


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:05:14
From: chris.kagy at his.com (Chris Kagy)
Subject: New WYeast strains

Does anyone have datasheets for the new WYeast strains that are out?  I'm
particularly interested in 1335 (British Ale), 1318 (London Ale II), 1272
(American Ale II), 1275 (Thames Valley Ale) and 1388 (Belgian Strong Ale).  I
did a quick scan of the web and didn't find anything.

Thanks!

Chris Kagy
Asst. Sysop
GEnie Zymurgy RT

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 18:29:27 PST
From: palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Eric Palmer)
Subject: home made ice box

in #1879  (sorry, I got behind),  John Herman (jmherman at gonix.com) wrote
about his home made ice box he is currently using for lager fermentation. I
like that idea. Before I got  hooked on homebrewing, I had a 30yr old
Admiral side-by-side fridge in the garage that was still going strong. I
had tweeked the thermostat to set the "warm" side to 50-60 deg for wine
which left the freezer side at about at 45 deg which was perfect for, gee
what could it be.
Anyway, in a moment if temporary insanity, I sold it at a garage sale for $40.

Since getting into homebrew, I had dismissed ever being able to brew lager
since garage space is at a premium with a new drill press occupying the
only spot where a fridge might fit.  Of course concern about my wife's 
response were I to suggest we buy another fridge is not an issue. Naw.

Anyway, I think John's idea is a great one, and I'd like to carry it one
step further. How about dry ice? Never used it, don't know if it's
expensive or cheap but I do believe that pound for pound, it puts out more
cold than regualar ice, and in a confined space it would probably last much
longer ( i.e. it's more efficent).

Has anyone else tried this idea or is a cheap used fridge too easy? But,
don't forget that any fridge that is 15 to 20 yrs old (not to mention 30)
is probably going to cost you at least $15-20 a month in power!

Eric


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:05:31 -0500
From: stull at fred.net (Mark E. and Diane Stull)
Subject: Re: Black & Tan

On Thu, 16 Nov 1995 martunes at unix.infoserve.net (Martin Hatlelid)
wrote:

>>>AB makes an interesting claim on the Black & Tan label.  This *was* the name
>>of
>>>their Porter at the turn of the century.
>>Last I heard, "Black & Tan" meant a Harps/Guiness combo.
>
>The Harps/Guinness combo is a Half & Half, a Black & Tan is a
>Smithwicks/Guinness. 

Hmm, I was told by a friend from Newcastle-upon-Tyne (did I get that right?)
that a Black & Tan was a Newcastle (Brown Ale, I guess)/Guiness combo.  So
maybe there's a bit of regional variation at work here....

Mark Stull
stull at fred.net

Homebrewing in greater suburban Jefferson, MD.


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:13:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: PET/Yeast starters

===> John Girard comments on PET bottles:

> I also seem to recall that no one quite explained how O2 passed into the 
> beer (due to osmotic pressure?) but CO2 did not escape by the same process 
> except to hypothesize that the larger CO2 molecule could not pass the 
> barrier, while smaller O2 molecules could...

Yes, it is a combination of osmotic pressure and membrane permeability.
The PET is acting as a semi-permeable membrane.  As such, it allows some
gases to pass more readily than others.  Did you ever notice, when you
were a kid, how helium filled rubber balloons deflated overnight but 
that ones you blew up did not?  Rubber is much more permeable to helium
than to air.  Notice how much longer helium filled Mylar (a trade name
for PET) balloons stay inflated than rubber balloons?  Mylar is much
less permeable to helium than rubber.  The molecular size of the gases
is certainly a contributing factor but it is not the only one.  There
is probably some effect due to interactions a the molecular level.

===> W. A. Wallinger has questions about yeast starters:

> 1. When stepping up, should the contents be re-aerated?

Yes.  When you add fresh wort, aerate.

> 2. When stepping up, should the liquid be decanted?

Yes, remove the spent wort.

> 4. If not, should subsequent steps simply double the volume each time?

I double.  You could probably more than double if you wanted to.

> 6. When starting a lager yeast, should it ferment at room temperature?

>From various postings I've read from contributors that I respect, the
suggestion is to lower the temperature at each step-up to acclimate
the yeast to the lager fermentation temperature.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.net

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 23:56:25 -0500
From: dludwig at ameritel.net
Subject: Kegging Wheat Beers and forced carbonation

Greetings! I just kegged a 50/50 barley/wheat beer, OG 1.046/FG 1.014. This
is my first experiment with kegging and have several  questions about
procedure. Can I force carbonate at 60 deg F (my current basement temp. I
don't have a fridge yet) or do I need lower temps. What I have tried so far
is pressurize with CO2 to 27-30 psi and shook the keg for a few minutes at a
time every 1/2 hour or so for 4 hours. Beer temp at around 60 degrees. I
then set the keg out overnight at 27 psi where temp lowered to around 50 deg
F. This followed by another day at 60 deg F(basement again). Two days later,
lots of foam but not much effervesence(SP?). This is a light wheat beer and
I want it kind of bubbly. My wife likes the flavor which is a milestone for
my beer making endeavors. Should I just keep the keg under pressure for a
few more days or do I need to seek lower temps, or something else? I've
considered priming the keg and letting it go for a few weeks. Are the yeast
cells damaged from the pressure? Can I get there without priming? Thanks in
advance for any advice. -Dave, dludwig at atc.ameritel.net



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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:38:48 -0500
From: HuskerRed at aol.com
Subject: Yeast Starter in an Oil Bath

I just started doing yeast starters (the only way to go) and 
downloaded Kirk R. Fleming's "Preparing Yeast Starters".  After 
reading through it, I decided that sterilization was the most 
important thing.  So I decided to take his ideas one step 
further.  I filled eight 22 oz. bottles with 16 oz. of water 
and 6 tbs. of  DME.  Then put them in an 8 quart stewpot and 
filled the pot with cooking oil.  I took the cooking oil up to 
215-220F and boiled the starters for ten minutes. I then pulled 
the bottles out and sat them in the sink to cool with caps set 
on top of them.  After about an hour, I used my capper on seven 
of them and pitched yeast in the eighth one and washed the oil 
off.  I recycle the oil of course.  I now have seven sterile 
"starter starters" for future use.  If you don't mind the mess, 
I think an oil bath is very effective way to sterilize the wort 
and the bottles.
=+=+=+=
Extract tip:  Since I usually have to do the dishes before I can 
brew, I put my cans of extract in the dishwasher to get them 
softened up.  By the time I'm ready for them, they pour nicely.

I'll have another please,
Jason Henning
Kansas City

Sometimes we brew in no particular way but our own.



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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 00:12 PST
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: quality, marketing and industial brewing

MOUNT SOAPBOX   This post is an op/ed from a hophead concerning quality,
marketing images and industial brewing.  I'm just trying to promote variety
in viewpoints;  no flames or offense is intended to anyone with differing views.

I often read about 'quality' in the HBD and I always wonder what is meant.
You can measure the quality of somethings according to how effectively and
efficiently they are instrumental in achieving a given objective: how well a
bridge carries a load, how well a mill crushes grain, how quickly a burner
gives a boil, etc.  

But what's the objective of drinking a beer other than to gratify the
drinker?  Not much of anything else, IMHO, though gratification takes many
forms.  Therefore quality is strictly in the mind of the imbiber, isn't it?
A matter of personal taste?  You can talk about 'technical flaws' in a beer,
but even that is based upon the assumption that the flaw will interfere with
the enjoyment for most people, no?  Not to mention that one beer's flaw is
another beer's character.  Sometimes I long for the days when I enjoyed
over-mature imports, when light-struck was a type of hop and oxidation was
malty.

Small-scale brewers usually have to charge more for their product because it
costs more to produce it -- and it costs more mostly because of the
inefficiencies of scale rather than due to the cost of ingredients.  In
order to justify the price, small brewers often market the beer as a premium
quality product.  This is marketing every bit as much as the lifestyle
advertising of industrial mega-breweries.  Some HBDers seem to have
swallowed this line (hook and sinker).   If there were any objective
standard of quality, I doubt that many micros would come out ahead of the
'majors'.  

Micro-brewed beer is quality beer only if it happens to suit your tastes.
Putting down the major breweries or the people who prefer their products
seems to me to be self-serving egoism.  And hypocritical when one slams
those drinkers as puppets of publicity.  The sheep of the beer market don't
all flock to industrial brew.  There are lots of people who buy
micro-products only to seem cool and follow a fad.  Then they extoll the
'quality' of their highly-oxidized, acetic mugful of DMS.  When you want
examples of off-flavours for beer-judge training, micros usually have
something to offer.

As brewers, we often focus on the physical product because that's what we're
making.  For example, Greg Walz writes in # 1888 writes, "Sorry, but this
misses the point.  What matters is HOW THE BEER TASTES."  You can make this
your priority, but is there any reason why you SHOULD?  Sure, homebrew
competition judging consciously strives to eliminate any factors other than
flavour/taste/aroma from the judgement of the beer.    But in all other
situations, don't we want to benefit from everything that can contribute to
enjoyment and well-being?  Put a label on your homebrew and see if you don't
appreciate it more.

Isn't a good beer better when poured into your favourite beverage
containment system, in comfortable surroundings with good friends?   Better
yet from a nice bottle with a great label, made by a brewery with an image
that appeals to you?  There is nothing wrong with gaining appreciation and
enjoyment from the positive associations of good marketing.  If it weren't
for the negative side-effects of T & A advertising, wouldn't it be a good
way to increase the aphrodisiac effects of beer?  Even if all the beers of
mega-breweries were identical (and they certainly aren't), differences in
the images associated with those products are good grounds for a drinker to
choose one brand over another.  The thought of a suit who has never
shovelled out a lauter tun tends to turn me off contract brews.  Whether
mega- or micro, judging a brand by the physical beer isn't intrinsically
more important than the label and image (McLuhanesque, eh?), or the business
practices of the brewery. 

Like a lot of people who post here, Budmilloors or Schludwiller is my last
choice in a beer.  I used to call the drinkers of mainstream beer
'undiscriminating',  thinking that these people would drink anything set
before them when they order 'beer', but that's dead wrong.  The vast
majority of these drinkers can discriminate quite easily between mega-brew
and micro-beer, and they *prefer* the mainstream product.  A friend of mine
calls Guinness, 'grimace'.  

Same as in the music business, the fact that economics is intricately
involved with the business is used by those who don't like a particular
product to claim that it is produced only to make a fast buck and anyone who
buys the product is the dupe of advertising.  It isn't so.  I remember a
Yorkshireman -- a fine cook with discerning taste -- declining to join CAMRA
in Toronto, Ontario, saying, "I couldn't stand that crap over there [in the
UK], why should I drink it here?"  The growth of the industrial mega-swill
lager market in the UK, where there has always been an alternative,  is due
to public demand.  No?

Among the drinkers of 'mainstream' beer, many have strong preferences for
one industrial brew rather than another.  Sometimes that's label loyalty,
but it's often a developed taste for the actual beer.  Some of those people
have much finer powers of discrimination than the 'connoiseur' who can only
distinguish the broad features in the wide world of flavours.  Rather
ironic, isn't it?  This goes back to # 1862 when  Richard Scotty mentions
"that there were no less than 5 styles of 'American Lagers' defined" at the
GABF.  This reminds me of the homonculus [sp?] -- a diagram of the human
body where the parts are shown scaled according to the number of nerve cells
they contain.  What you see is a mutant with huge hands, large feet, a
gigantic head with large eyes and lips.  Different from what you see in the
mirror (I hope).  It just depends how you map out the territory.  Richard
Scotty wrote, "  I can't tell the difference between Red Dog (gold medal
winner??) and Miller Genuine Draft..."  I think many mainstream beer
drinkers could tell the difference in a blind triangle tasting.  There is
certainly some backroom politics involved, but I think the sheer numbers of
people that drink American Lager, and the numbers of products, justify the
subcategories at the GABF.  Like a homebrew competition, you split up the
big categories, and sometimes lump together very different beers when there
aren't many entries.  

Again, no offense intended.  Provocation, maybe ;-0  I'm really not trying
to push any opinion as being RIGHT any more than I would choose one beer as
the best.  There is a grain of truth in opposing opinions, ying yang, etc.
DISMOUNT SOAPBOX.


    Rob Lauriston                          <robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca>
    The Low Overhead Brewery                        Vernon, B. C.


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 09:51:33 -0500
From: Allen Born <BornA at USA.RED-CROSS.ORG>
Subject:  Pilsner and Wyeast 2112

I'd like to take a stab at a Czech Pilsner for my next brew.  Unfortunately,
I don't think the temperature I'll be fermenting and storing the beer at is
that compatible with the yeast strain for a Czech Pilsner.  I'm thinking
about using Wyeast 2112 (California lager), which works well under 65
degrees F.  Has anyone had any experience trying to make a Pilsner with
2112?  Could you recommend another yeast that would work in the 60 to
65 degree range?  Thanks.


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 07:06:40 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: SS airstones             

>>>>> "Chuck" == Charles Wettergreen <chuckmw at mcs.com> writes:

Chuck> My question is, where can I get the SS airstone. I called
Chuck> Brewer's Resource and asked the size of their SS airstone. They
Chuck> said it was 33 microns! At that size, I'll continue using my
Chuck> chrome plated copper diffuser from American Scientific.  Anyone
Chuck> know where to get something between a 1 and 2 micron airstone?

The SS stone sold by Gulfstream Brewing Products is a 2 micron
version.  I don't have their number handy, but it is in my article in
the Sep/Oct issue of Brewing Techniques on how to make an
oxygenation/carbonation lid for a corny keg for use with a SS stone.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:26:14 -0500
From: W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US
Subject:  cider fermentation question

So many questions ... so few carboys.

The nearest beer store arranges a special cider pressing with a
local orchard.  I picked up my 5 gallons Saturday.  Last night
(monday) I emptied the 5, 1 gallon plastic jugs into the carboy. 
Lots of pressure had built up in the jugs.  This morning I
noticed the airlock was perking along quite nicely -- like an ale
after high kreusen.  I kind of like the idea of letting this
natural fermentation reach its conclusion unaltered.  BUT ...
more importantly I would like a beverage that is tasty (at least
drinkable :-) .  

Some have suggested 2 lbs. of brown sugar dissolved in water and
champagne yeast should be added -- is that really necessary ?  
I'm not in a hurry.   Anyone ever try letting it ferment itself
out?  If letting it ferment itself doesn't work, how would adding
sugar and champagne yeast work if I've let nature take its course
for a few - many months (would there be too many off flavors to
overcome etc...).  
 
Thanks for any and all help. If you want to respond directly the
address is "W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US"  


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 10:18:59 EST
From: T F Sieja (Tom) <tsieja at ford.com>
Subject: British Beer Engines

I'm interested in obtaining an authentic British beer engine and would
appreciate any information of where I might go to find one. (Besides
England).  Are there distributors in the US?  Any place to find some
second hand beer engines,...

I have been in contact with a beer engine manufacturer in the UK who is
considering setting up shop in the US.  I'm curious if there would be
a good market for such a product and what prices people would be willing
to pay.  If there seems to be a large demand, I will forward the information
to England in hopes that may expidite the process.

Private email is fine.  I will post any results of the engine search.

Thanks,

Tom Sieja     (tsieja at ford.com)



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1891, 11/23/95