FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Steam Injection Mashing - An Alternative??? (rwallace)
  Stopper trapped in Carboy (Mike White)
  Filters (Jay Weissler)
  White film on bottles?? (Mike White)
  Plate filters for homebrew (rseibt)
  "natural" cider, trademarks ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Flow gauges (krkoupa)
  My First Easymasher Experience (Paul Sovcik)
  Strike/Sparge water, Steam Injection... (p.) locker" <locker at bnr.ca>
  Wyeast 1214 & cooler mashing (Steve Comella)
  Overcarbonation/Mash heating/Carmelization/Burners ("Philip Gravel")
  Yeast starters. (MR MIKE CHOJNACKI)
  RE:re:re:Boiled kegs (Douhan)
  stopper in carboy (Frank Dechaine)
  Lactic acid to drop pH (Mark Redman)
  Wort Chillers (GeepMaley)
  Filters (Matt_K)
  brewing clipart (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  Brewcap/ Inverted Carboys (Eric Marzewski)
  Vanilla Ale, Fruit, Yeast ("Herb B. Tuten")
  Re: Carbonate Brewing Water / Brewing milds (Jim Dipalma)
  Re: DMS in Lagers / Carbonate Brewing Water (Bird)
  Propane, once again!!!! (Steven Lichtenberg)
  conditioning temp, cloves, whining (Russell Mast)
  faster carbonation? (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
  Propane/nat gas orifice sizes (Scott Kaczorowski)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:03:02 -0600
From: rwallace at iastate.edu
Subject: Steam Injection Mashing - An Alternative???

In article <30BCA1C5.2671 at bimcore.emory.edu>,
Richard Seyler  <tad at bimcore.emory.edu> wrote:
  >Philip Locker wrote:
  >> I seem to remember some discussion here in the past of using steam
  >> injection (through the copper sparging manifold) to raise the temperature
  >> of the mash.  But I don't remember any details...
  >> 
  >> Anyone care to share their knowledge/experiences?
  >>   - is this an effective system
  >>   - what is used as a steam source

Tad replied...
 >I have been using this method to heat the mash in a 10 gal. Gott
 >cooler for about 20 batches and I love it.  It is quite effective.
 >Of course, the more energy you apply to the steam generator, the
 >faster you can raise the temp. 

     < snip >

 >  Lately, I have been using this
 >method in conjunction with a recirculation pump for simple, stir
 >free mashing.  This requires a separate steam manifold.
 

     I was going to try one of these steam injectors, and have even scrounged
the pot, tubing etc.  My concerns lie in the use of pressurized steam, and
the potential safety hazards associated with its application to boost temps
in cooler type mashing systems, plus the need for a stove/burner.

     While expressing the TUL-1 gene found on the y-chromosome this past
weekend (i.e. wandering through the tool aisle at our local home improvement
center)  I came across a variable temp heat gun which blows high velocity
heated air (350 to 1,000+ ^F, adjustable) out its business end.  My first
thoughts were to try to build an "air-manifold" which would NOT have small
holes or slits in it, but would coil several times in the mash and then be
vented out the top of the mash tun (I use a 10 gallon Gott).  Obviously one
would not want to increase AIR flow *through* the tun, but some sort of hot
air flow through copper tubing could possibly be used to boost mash temps
(ever touch a hot exhaust pipe?).  This would essentially be a "reverse wort
chiller" made from several lengths of 5/8" or 3/4" soft copper tubing 
sufficient to allow high volume flow of air through coils (no condensate!)
submerged in the mash and out through open (opposite) ends of the tubes (i.e
low, if any, back pressure to the blower), substituting hot (very hot) air
for cool water.  Benefits of this system might be that the heat source could be
switched on and off easily, and the air temperature could be easily adjusted;
(steam never gets above 100^C unless superheated right?), there is no
explosion hazard, nor is there the need to replenish water to be boiled.
Furthermore it would free the brewer from the use of a stove, propane cooker,
or hotplate.  I like the idea of electric temperature boosts without the use
of resistive elements in contact with wort....

     I realize the heat capacity of air is a fraction of that of water, and
that copper isn't an ideal heat conductor.  I WOULD LIKE TO ASK any of you
who are "thermodynamically competent" to tell me if this concept is so far
away from working (practically speaking) given the heat exchange
characteristics of the media involved, or any other considerations I'm missing. 
If I get some even remotely positive feedback, I think I'll experiment with
this, even if I'm just going to wind up building a fancy room warmer!

     Has anyone already invented this wheel???

     Thanks for any feedback, here or direct!  (rwallace at iastate.edu)

     Cheers and good tinkering!

     Rob Wallace

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:57:46 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Stopper trapped in Carboy

On Tue, 28 Nov 1995 Chuck and Grace Burkins wrote: 

>Hi all:
>When brewing my last batch, I ran into a problem. I aerate by doing the 
>carboy shake. I have a solid gum stopper that I use to plug the carboy. 
>After bleaching the stopper, I rinsed it under hot water, put it in the 
>neck of the carboy and plop! it went right in.  I mean in.  Floating on 
>the wort.

Sounds like somehow the airspace above the wort cooled and contracted
causing a suction thereby sucking in the stopper.  Reminds me of the old
hard-boiled-egg-in-the-glass-milk-bottle trick.  Reversing the process might
fix the problem.  Try getting the stopper slightly back into the neck of the
carboy then run hot water over the outside of the carboy.  This should cause
the air inside the carboy to heat up, expand and possibly blow the stopper
back out of the carboy.  

Some sort of lubricant put on the stopper may assist in not only allowing
the stopper to slip out, but also to help seal between the stopper and the
neck of the carboy.  You may want to consider some glycerine or cooking oil
smeared around the neck of the carboy as a lubricant. 

This method should not raise the air pressure inside of the carboy to
dangerous levels. 

Good luck.  Let us know how it "comes out". 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

Don't question authority; it doesn't know either.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 14:08:02 -0600
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: Filters

Jim Busch sez:
>Im interested in filters for homebrewers

Extra wide screen will catch all but the occasional newbie. Though  
after your make over between issues of BT it looks like you might now  
fall thru too. ; ) (forgive me if i've got the wrong guy, actually,  
forgive me either way).

Personally, I prefer the logic filters. Likes Bud (NO), Likes Koch  
(NO), Likes new BT format (apparently yes)....

BTW, is there anyone who writes for or to BT that isn't a denizen  
here? 


jayw

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:08:04 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: White film on bottles??

On Tue, 28 Nov 95 jcmas at searle.monsanto.com wrote:
 

> I'm new to homebrewing.  In preparing my bottles, I soaked them in a 
> ammonia-water solution to remove the labels.  The labels came off 
> fairly easily.  However, after several rinses I notice some bottles 
> have a noticeable white film on them.  After further rinsing and 
> airdrying, the film still persists.
>     
> Is this a problem??

I recently noticed after removing labels the same way there was a milky
white color to the rinse water.  I think that it was the glue from the
labels.  Some similarly colored goo was adhered to the bottles where the
labels were.

So I gently scrubbed the areas with a brillo pad.  Took the goo right off.

If your problem is sticky white goo where the labels were then it's most
probably glue.  Try scrubbing it off.  If you have some white film all over
the bottles then I don't know what the answer is.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

Don't question authority; it doesn't know either.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:27:16 -0500
From: rseibt at apk.net
Subject: Plate filters for homebrew

In HBD #1897 Jim Busch writes

>Does anyone know of a plate style filter sold for homebrewers?

A few years ago I purchased the multi-plate filter advertised in Zymurgy.
>From the outset, I had problems with beer loss from between the plates.(My
first attempt yielded 3.5 gal of clear beer from a 5 gal batch.)I was in 
contact with the manufacturer (in Canada) many times to detect the problem.
He was VERY helpful in trying to find the problem, sending me replacement 
plates, filters etc. at no cost.

I was very happy with the filter performance on the beer that did make it
back into my corny.  A major advantage of these systems is that the filter
pads are inexpensive and offer a wide variety of micron sizes, including 
activated carbon  for brewing water.  Even when using the 1 micron filter,
I did not notice any loss of flavor, although I didn't perform any 
empirical tests.

I almost hesitate to post this because I don't want to denigrate a company 
or its product publicly if I happened to have a "lemon".  Unfortunately I 
was the only brewer in the area to have one so I cannot compare.  I know 
the owner stands by his product and I experienced nothing but help from 
him when repeatedly calling him.  Could someone else out there let me/us 
in on their experiences?

Rick

**********************************************************************
Rick Seibt			"Cleveland is my home, I would 
rseibt at apk.net or		 never move the Browns.  I'd sell 
				 the team first.  -  Art Modell
**********************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:38:46 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: "natural" cider, trademarks

In Digest #1893:
"Renald Chabot" <rchabot at ivic.qc.ca> sez:
>Since natural yeast are possibly less resistant to alcool than 
>selected champagne yeast, you will probably not get a full sugar 
>fermentation. It might give you a slightly sweet cider which is, 
>IMHO, not bad at all ;-).

Many wild yeasts are able to ferment relatively complex carbohydrates (eg.
dextrins) which brewers yeasts can't. That's why wild yeast infections can
produce gushers and glass grenades. Spontaneously fermented cider is
generally very dry, just like most other ciders, unless a relatively large
amount of sugar is added or the fermentation gets stuck. Last night I racked
a 5 gallon batch of "Real" Vermont Apple Cider to the secondary. It started
at 1.058 and went down to 1.002 in less than a month. It tastes quite like
brut champagne. It's fruity and tart. Excellent stuff, if you go for that
sort of thing.

>This year, for the first time, I tried two fermentation processes, 
>one natural and the other started with commercial Yeast and both 
>with the same pressing. The initial specific gravity was 1052 and 
>roughly two months later, it is still fermenting slowly for the 
>natural one with a 1010 gravity comparing to 1000 gravity for the 
>other.

This may be due to the pitching rate. You probably pitched a lot more yeast
than the natural fermented batch would have. I expect they both might
eventually end up fairly close to 1 by the time you bottle (or whatever).

>In both cases, the major thing is the clarification. It has always 
>been difficult to obtain a clear product, even after several 
>months in the jug. This time, I would try filtration before 
>bottling. Or if someone else have any suggestions, you're 
>wellcome :-)

Gelatin will do the trick, if you really want a clear product. (This would
technically be chaeating if you're a purist trying to make "Real" cider.)


Then in Digest #1895:
alan at mail.utexas.edu (Alan) sez:
>If the keeper doesn't use the trademark, they lose
>it.  Koch never used it; he just kept re-trademarking the name.  When
>Waterloo Brewing here in Austin decided to use it, Koch threatened to sue.
>Apparently, Waterloo won out.  They are still using the name two years
>later.

It's easy to claim a trademark, but enforcement is much more difficult.
Without selling an actual product of that name, one can never enforce a
trademark.

>Sure, trademark & copyright infringements are crimes

While trademark infringement is illegal, it's a civil rather than criminal
offense. There's a big difference.
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 13:58:31 PST
From: krkoupa at ccmail2.srv.PacBell.COM
Subject: Flow gauges

     My problem:  I'd like to know how much hot water I'm gravity-flowing 
     onto the grain in my mash tun.
     
     My (known) options:  It would be nice to have a digital flow meter, 
     but I don't want to pay that much to just to measure elapsed water 
     passage.  I could calibrate the hot water tank with gallon markings, 
     but who wants to stick his/her head in a tank of 170+F water to watch 
     the level drop?  I could use one of those stainless-steel-framed, 
     glass cylinder window things often seen on industrial coffee pots, 
     drilled and welded onto my hot liquor tank.  But it looks too easy to 
     crack and I don't want to introduce additional leak points.  I could 
     use an open ended stainless steel/copper tube with a floating, 
     graduated dipstick in it (sort of like a hydrometer), but it requires 
     more engineering than I want to devote (since I don't know what to 
     make the floating dipstick out of).  And wouldn't it be fun to have a 
     device that automatically shuts off after you tell it how much water 
     flow you want?  (ex:  Let 6.2 gallons pass through, then shut yourself 
     off.)
     
     My question:  Does anyone have a low-cost, commercial, elegant 
     solution to measuring elapsed flow?  Accuracy to the nearest pint or 
     so would be sufficient.  Thanks!
     
     Ken Koupal          krkoupa at ccmail2.pacbell.com


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Date:         Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:28:39 CST
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU>
Subject:      My First Easymasher Experience

Well, I finally got (and installed) and EM in my SS pot.  Since I dont have
a large brewpot yet, I tried it out on a partial mash batch yesterday.

The mash went OK - but there were two problems with the EM and I'm wondering
if they are common problems or just my dumb luck/stupid technique.

First:  The mash stuck twice, initially, and when I had to shut off the flow
once halfway through.  I was able to restart it by "underletting" (i.e 15ml
of water shot into the spigot with a syringe), but it did cause a bit of a
mess.  My mash was 5# of pale ale malt and 1/2# crystal - neither crushed
too fine. What was the problem? Stirring didnt help unstick it.

Second:  I put a hose on the spigot to collect the wort, and at any flow
less than max, the seam in the spigot made the seal leak - causing a flow
of tiny bubbles to enter the flow hose.  Needless to say - this was causing
oxidation from hell.  The only way to stop it was to apply pressure to the
plastic hose near the seam.  Since the damn little brass spigot gets hot, and
I really didnt feel like putting my finger on it for an hour, I just let the
sparge go at full speed for most of the time - giving me a poor yield.

On the other hand, the aeration worked great for transferring to the
fermenter!

Well, hopefully I'll figure out how to solve these little problems, and
do a full grain mash soon.

 -Paul in Chicago
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Sovcik, PharmD                         PJS at uic.edu
University of Illinois at Chicago
College of Pharmacy

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Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:31:00 -0500 
From: "philip (p.) locker" <locker at bnr.ca>
Subject:  Strike/Sparge water, Steam Injection... 

Hullo.

I'm a new subscriber to this list - I've been doing all-grain with a
BruHeat for a couple years now, and am starting to think out the details
of a 10 gallon brewery for my basement (its -20 degrees Celcius right now;
I really don't want to brew outside in the winter!)

I'm inclined to favour steam injection for raising mash temperatures,
and I've had some thoughts on how the same heat source could be used for
heating strike & sparge water.  BTW, I favour a tower (gravity) brewery
rather than using pumps to move hot liquids around.

My thought is this:  why not use large coolers for both the hot water tank
and the mash tun.  Form a conical coil of soft copper attached to my cold
water tap, and position a low power burner under it.  By controlling the
flame and water flow I should have good control over the temperature.  I
could fill the hot water "cooler" for strike water while grinding my 
grains, and could slowly fill it with sparge water while mashing.

When it comes time to raise mash temperatures, divert the flow from the
copper coil into the copper manifold in the bottom of the mash tun, and
crank up the flame / reduce the water flow until it is producing steam.
>From what I understand it takes very low steam pressure to heat the
mash this way.  I don't see any real safety issues (yes, I know steam
is dangerous, but I can't see how the line could get plugged in such
a way as to create dangerous pressures).

Comments?

Phil
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Locker            | All standard |Toys: Fender Telecaster, '68 Mustang GT 
Bell-Northern Research | disclaimers  |Fastback (390 4spd), Fireball sailboat.
locker at bnr.ca          |   apply      |        Have I won yet?

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 18:47:11 -0700
From: brew2u at azstarnet.com (Steve Comella)
Subject: Wyeast 1214 & cooler mashing 

In HB 1897, Ray writes:

> Also I used the Wyeast 
>Belgian Abbey Ale yeast and boy what a strong Clove smell and banana 
>taste. Is this common with this strain. I will admit my fermentation 
>temperatures are around 78 degrees. Is this contributing to the strong 
>aroma and taste. Private E-Mail or Post is fine.  

Prior to brewing this type of beer for the first time, I had the same 
questions.  After reading almost everything relating to this yeast, 
and calling Wyeast for additional info, I found that the smell and taste
 is hit or miss (see HBD 10/20/92 post by A. Korzonis (?)). 
My own experience is that even fermenting at 57 F, there is still *some*
banana, but I like this when it's subtle.
Wyeast suggests a fermentation temp. of 58F to 68F, but you might
do best to keep it under 60F for your next batch if you find the smell
and taste objectionable.


And Ed writes:

> How do you "cooler" users add heat to the mash?

Personally, I make different infusions of a calculated amount of 203F
water at each step of the mashing process.  So far, so good.  My mash
wasn't too soupy, since I base the calculation on .8 gallons of water
per pound of grain as opposed to 1 gallon.


>Propane
>I brewed a all-grain last weekend with my King-Cooker burner indoors!

Suuuuure is nice here in the Southwest this time of year ;-)



Steve Comella
brew2u at azstarnet.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:12:36 -3000 (CST)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: Overcarbonation/Mash heating/Carmelization/Burners

===>  Alejandro Midence comments about overcarbonation:

> > 	2.  Did you bulk prime or add a measured amount of sugar to each
> > bottle?  
> 
> I used 3/4 c of dextros boiled in about  one pt of water.  Nothing outa 
> the ordinary.  Cooled priming solution to about sixtyish and poured it 
> right in, stirring with a sanitized plastic spoon thereafter to mix 
> well.  Then, I let it sit for about an hour before I started bottling.  
> (allusions to possible contamination via adding sugar individualy to each 
> botle deleted)

How well did you mix in the priming solution?  Without thorough mixing,
it is possible to get stratification and uneven carbonation.

===> Ed Winters asks about heating mashes in Gott coolers:

> I bought a round Gott cooler for my mashing when I began all-grain several
> years ago.  It was a disaster!  I believed I could just simply add boiling
> water to increase the temp.  Well, as the volume increases, so does the
> required amount of water.  Before I knew what was going on, I was out of hot
> water and the mash was soup!  "Don't worry, have a Homebrew!" my book
> said.  So I did.  The brew turned out OK.  Lately I have been mashing in a
> stainless pot (rapped in a blanket).  Add boiling water for major temp
> jumps and on the stove (low low heat) for fine adjustments.  How do you
> "cooler" users add heat to the mash?

Cooler types of mash tuns are best for single infusion mashes.  You can
do some stepping, but you will probably go through trial and error to
get the volumes and temperatures correct.  I believe others have said
that they've developed spreadsheets that calculate this information.
(It should be a straightforward calculation if you know the temperatures,
volumes, and heat capacities.)

A very efficient and relatively accurate way of doing a step mash in a
cooler mash tun is to use steam injection.  With steam, you can never
heat above 212^F and steam holds a lot of energy in the form of latent
heat of vaporization so you don't add much water.

===> Larry N. Lowe asks about caramelization:

>   upon reading posts about carmalization, i have a related
> question. i have yet to purchase an adequate size SS pan.
> my is only 12qt...gasp. in other words, when i boil my extract,
> i am doing so in only gallon-n-half (or less) of water. what effects 
> does this have on my beer? i have noticed my beer is darker than a
> fellow homebrewer (comparitive styles of course). is this due to 
> the amount of water for the boil? are their any taste issues?

The more concentrated the boil, the greater the opportunity for
caramelization.  It may give the beer a more caramel flavor.
Full volume boils reduce the likelihood of carmelization.

==> Ronald J. La Borde comments about burners from water heaters:

> I have no experience with hot water heater burners.  No easy way to get an
> old heater to my house so I can hack it apart.  I do see many old heaters
> waiting for the trash pickup to come by.  In my area the normal method of
> disposal is the front lawn!  How is it in the rest of the country?

The burner isn't that hard to remove.  I just did it back in September.
Grab a couple of crescent wrenches, pliers, screwdriver, and hammer and
just take the burner out without dragging the heater home.


- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.net

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:25:41 EST
From: LJMG85A at prodigy.com (MR MIKE CHOJNACKI)
Subject: Yeast starters.

Hey Brew Dudes,
   
   I have recently tried starting my liquid yeast in about a pint of 

wort for about 24 hours prior to pitching. I haven't noticed any 
difference
except for a slight whitish film in the carboy. Any suggestions for
starting yeast?

 -Mike Chojnacki (LJMG85A at PRODIGY.COM



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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:37:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Douhan <gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: RE:re:re:Boiled kegs

	This is in responce to the postings about this subject in the 
last few days. I have a rule of thumb about this subject. If your beer is 
not contaminated in the first place then don't worry about it. Once my 
kegs are empty I simply leave them in the frig(usually 2-3 weeks). When 
the next batch is done I take the empty out of the frig, release the 
pressure, rinse with cool water in my bathtub just to get the small 
amount of yeast off the bottom(less than a minute), and fill it up with a 
fresh batch. The only contamination(noticable) that I have ever had in 
the three and a half years of brewing was my first batch where I was 
anal as hell! 

I have also recently moved to eastern Washington from the Heart of the 
Redwoods. Home of Mad River Brewing Company who produce Steelhead Extra 
Stout, Stealhaed Extra Pale Ale, and Jamaca Red. Question: Has anybody 
out there ever formulated a recipe which has come close to the extra 
pale or the Jamaca red. Private Email would be great!

Greg Douhan   
gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:07:14 +0200 (METDST)
From: Frank Dechaine <dechaine at inet.uni-c.dk>
Subject: stopper in carboy


For the person with the stopper that got sucked in the carboy..

Learned a trick that might work on pulling out a cork that had been shoved 
down a wine bottle.

Stick a disk towel or something like it into the carboy (hold on to the 
end though). Lay carboy on its side and try to roll the stopper into the 
folds of the dish towel. Once that happens, pull out dish towel slowly 
and as the stopper gets to the neck of the bottle, start pulling in 
earnest. The stopper is firmly held by the towel so as you pull harder 
you should see the stopper come out. It works great with corks in wine 
bottles so it should work here

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:36:31 -0500
From: Mark Redman <brewman at vivid.net>
Subject: Lactic acid to drop pH

roberts at Rt66.com(Bird) asks about using lactic acid to drop his pH of 8.5.
I use lactic acid all the time to drop the pH of my sparge water,but not in
the mash. Here in Atlanta (home of the 1995 Wolrd Champion Atlanta Braves!)
we have unusual water, in that it is very soft (hardness = 33ppm) but also
has a very high pH (up to 8.0). 
The problem with using acids to drop the pH is that it is very easy to add
too much, resulting in a sour aftertaste. I use an electronic pH meter, then
dilute about 1\4 to 1\2 tsp lactic acid in 1 liter of water, then slowly
pour in the mixture,stir,take a reading,add,stir,etc. until my pH is about
5.7. Believe it or not it only takes about 1\4 tsp lactic acid to drop the
pH of 6 gallons of water down to 5.7 in my case.
I've never had much success with pH strips, but there are probably some out
there that are sensitive enough to work instead of buying a 40$ electronic
meter.
I would follow Rob Reeds advice and pre-boil all the water,then rack off the
chalk precipitates. If that doesn't help, try experimenting with lactic
acid, just be careful. Like I said, I use it all the time without any
problems and I brew a lot of Pilsners, with no detectable sourness. You can
purchase some via mail order from:
The Malt Shop at (800) 235-0026


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:11:21 -0500
From: GeepMaley at aol.com
Subject: Wort Chillers

I know, I know. This has been talked to death, but please point me toward a
FAQ for immersion wort chiller designs. Private e-mail is preferred wince I
don't read the digest every day.

Thanks
Geep Maley
Plano, TX

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:56:54 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Filters

>Listermann Mfg. is importing a Canadian-made pad-type filter which 
>was originally developed for wine making.  Known as the "Hexter" 
>(because of its hexagonal shape), it uses two ~8" diameter pads 
>(micron rating unknown, but more than one pore size is reportedly 
>available) in a single-pass arrangement.  The beer enters between the 
>two pads and flows outward on each side. Hookups are molded-in hose > 
>barbs, and CO2 pressure is used to push from one soda keg to another 
>via the filter.  

I use one of these for my wine and it works great.  It came with a 
plastic carboy and an aquarium pump.  The carboy has a hose barb near 
the bottom and the aquarium pump attaches to a screw cap at the top 
and is used to pressuize the carbot to push the wine out(CO2 would be 
better for beer though).  The pads come in 5 grades.  Pore sizes are 
as follows: grade 1=10 microns, 2=5 microns, 3=2-3 microns, 4 =1-1.5 
microns, 5=0.6-0.8 microns.  I got these numbers from the store I 
usually buy from.  Charcoal pads are also available which I've used to 
lighten the color of a white wine. BTW these filters are available in 
any store here in Montreal.

Matt
in Montreal



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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:54:12 -0500
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: brewing clipart


Does anyone know if there exists any brewing / Oktoberfest type clipart
for use with ms word, etc  on a dos pc

chuckm

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:13:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Marzewski <emarzews at nova.umuc.edu>
Subject: Brewcap/ Inverted Carboys

G-day,

I have found out all the comments were on one product...

The BrewCap does not have these yeast/ clogging problems and has come 
highly suggested, with several emails/facts to back it up,  if anyone
has a good comment or has had successful use with it, pls. let us know.

Cheers,

Eric Marzewski
emarzews at nova.umuc.edu

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Date:          Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:24:39 EDT
From: "Herb B. Tuten" <HERB at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us>
Subject:       Vanilla Ale, Fruit, Yeast

A few months ago I got advice from several of you about
using vanilla in an ale.  It was ready for tasting this week and
turned out yummy! My best yet - good head, smooth taste, just
a hint of vanilla.  Typical ale recipe, with 3 vanilla beans torn
apart and added to secondary for about 3 weeks.

Right now I've got a cherry weissbier in the primary with several
pounds of whole/smashed cherries.  Has anyone used fruit in the 
primary,  and then strained/rinsed it (to leave trub behind)  and used 
also in the secondary?  I think that conditioning in the secondary with 
the cherries would be good, and I sure hate to see them trashed upon 
racking.  Or perhaps I shouldn't go to a secondary with this one, as 
I've heard that secondary isn't desired for a wheat beer. Any advice?

The initial activity of the cherry weissbier was unbelievable - the lid
of the primary blew off!  I just used a regular ale yeast starter, so I 
wonder if wheat is notorious for vigorous fermentation. I just hope
I can get my primary bucket to seal again when this is over.  I had
to tape the lid down all around to achieve a seal, which was never a
problem before, and switched to a blow-by tube for 12 hours until 
foam activity ceased.  Now the air-lock is in place and all is well.
Side note - pleasant banana esters waft from the weissbier, though 
I thought this would only come from certain Bavarian yeast. 
Again, I suspect the wheat may be responsible.

Cheers,
Herb

herb at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:41:00 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: Carbonate Brewing Water / Brewing milds



Hi All,

  In HBD#1898, Rob Reed writes about pre-boiling mash and sparge water: 

>> The problem is that I was getting an astringent, bitter character over
>> and beyond the normal, desired hop bitterness. I have finally tracked
>> it down to the ph of the water. Because I obviously have a lot of CO3,
>> the ph is running right at 8.5, way high.
> <snip>
>> So, now that I know to adjust the ph, I'm trying to find a supplier of
>> food-grade lactic acid (88% aqueous), with near-zero luck.

>Doesn't this require a large amount of acid to reduce your mash and sparge
>water pH from 8.5.  I'd be concerned that adding large amounts of any acid
>are going to show through in the finished beer.

I agree, the high carbonate content of the water acts as an alkalinity
buffer, it will likely require a lot of acid to overcome the buffering and
drop the pH. 

>Have you considered preboiling your water to remove excess carbonates?

>I have similarly hard water and use this process
>to decarbonate my  pale ale brewing water. 

I also have water that's high in carbonates, and pre-boil all my mash and
sparge water. I don't add gypsum or calcium chloride first as Rob does, and
I've found that pre-boiling alone does not lower pH significantly. The pH of
my water is about 8.0 both before and after boiling. However, the precipitation
of carbonate as bicarbonate that Rob described does remove the alkalinity
buffer, making it possible to acidify the water with a very small amount of 
acid.

For the mash, I don't add anything at all, the natural acidification that
occurs at mash-in drops the pH from 8.0 right down to 5.2 - 5.4, no further
treatment required.

For sparging, I add just 1/4 teaspoon of acidblend per 10 gallons of sparge
water, which drops the pH to about 5.7 - 5.8. This ensures the pH in the
lauter tun stays under 6.0 for the duration of the sparge, avoiding the 
extraction of tannins.

To the original poster (Doug Roberts?), try pre-boiling as Rob described. If
the pH is still too high, add a very small amount of acid, that should do it.

>BTW, it is not necessary to let your water cool to room temp. to rack off
>of chalk precipitate.  It usually takes about 30 mins for all the chalk
>to settle out and then you can rack off the top or flow out of your
>spigoted boiler.

I've read that if the water is not decanted off the precipitate, the
bicarbonate will be re-dissolved. I don't know the timeframe, if it's several
hours, overnight, or what, but I basically do what Rob does. I pre-boil in
my hot liquor tank, wait 30 minutes to allow the bicarb to precipitate, then
open a valve and run the water into the mash tun. 

******************************************************************

Tim in Butte, Montana writes:

>One of the latest experiments I've dreamed up is making a concentrated mild
>ale and diluting it to 10 gallons in the secondary.  Has anyone tried this
>already.  I don't forsee many problems from a late addition if I preboil and
>cool the dilution water beforehand.

If you're going to dilute post fermentation, be careful not to splash your
dilution water when adding it to secondary. I'd treat it like beer, rack the
water quietly. If the water picks up oxygen, and you add it to fermented beer,
you will likely oxidize the alcohol that's already been produced.

Personally, I second Jim Busch's advice to dilute pre-fermentation, then this
won't be a concern. The tradeoff is that the higher gravity ferment will
produce more esters, but I don't feel this is a good thing for milds. The
trick to this style is getting a lot of body from a beer with a very low OG.
Esters, with the exception of isoamyl acetate (banana), generally have a sharp
flavor, which is exactly what you don't want in a mild. Too many sharp flavors
(e.g., hop bitterness, esters, roasted malt) will contribute to the impression
of a thin-bodied beer. Dilute pre-ferment, go easy on the hops, use some high
Lovibond crystal, use just a little (2%-3% of the grain bill) chocolate malt
as the dark malt (no roasted barley or black patent), and use a yeast that
leaves a lot of diacetyl, such as Tadcaster or Wyeast 1084.

Brewing concentrated worts and diluting to make milds is a great way to get
more beer out of a brewday, I typically brew 10 gallons and dilute to 15. At
2.5 - 3.0% ABV, these are *great* session beers.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:49:25 MST
From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
Subject: Re: DMS in Lagers / Carbonate Brewing Water

>>>>> "Rob" == Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com> writes:

 
    Rob> roberts at Rt66.com (Bird) writes:

    >> The problem is that I was getting an astringent, bitter
    >> character over and beyond the normal, desired hop bitterness. I
    >> have finally tracked it down to the ph of the water. Because I
    >> obviously have a lot of CO3, the ph is running right at 8.5,
    >> way high.
    Rob>  <snip>
    >> So, now that I know to adjust the ph, I'm trying to find a
    >> supplier of food-grade lactic acid (88% aqueous), with
    >> near-zero luck.

    Rob> Doesn't this require a large amount of acid to reduce your
    Rob> mash and sparge water pH from 8.5.  I'd be concerned that
    Rob> adding large amounts of any acid are going to show through in
    Rob> the finished beer.

I titrated a gallon of my water to determine the necessary amount of 
lactic acid to bring the mash water ph down to 5.2. It turns out that
5.3 ml of 88% aqueous lactic acid is required per gallon: not an 
excessive amount. I brewed a Scotch ale with this water, and it was
delicious.

    Rob> Have you considered preboiling your water to remove excess
    Rob> carbonates?  If you are unsure about Ca content, I'd add 1.5
    Rob> tsp. gypsum / 5 gals.  and pre-boil all your brewing water
    Rob> for 20 minutes.  The carbonate and bicarbonate ions will be
    Rob> precipitated as calcium carbonate (consuming some Ca in the
    Rob> process) and you'll be left with brewing water suitable for
    Rob> pale ales.  I have similarly hard water and use this process
    Rob> to decarbonate my pale ale brewing water.  For lagers, I use
    Rob> 1/4 - 1/2 tsp. calcium chloride / 5 gals. and treat
    Rob> similarly.

    Rob> BTW, it is not necessary to let your water cool to room
    Rob> temp. to rack off of chalk precipitate.  It usually takes
    Rob> about 30 mins for all the chalk to settle out and then you
    Rob> can rack off the top or flow out of your spigoted boiler.

I've considered this process: it's on my list of things to try: I bought
the gypsom last week.

BTW: where do you get your CACl2?


Thanks, and cheers.

- --Doug

- -- 
You know how dumb the average American is?
Just remember that 50% is even dumber than that.

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:49:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Lichtenberg <steve at inet.ttgva.com>
Subject: Propane, once again!!!!

I am becoming increasingly tired of the propane threads as they have been 
popping up more and more recently.  Everyine seems to be of the 
misconception that ABSOLUTELY NO WAY should you use propane indoors.  
This is absolutely FALSE.  Just because you buy this flammable gas in a 
little white bottle doesn't make it any different a fuel than the stuff 
that comes into your house in a pipe.  While the specific formulations 
differ and the inherent thermal value (BTU/cubic foot) is different 
(propane has more BTUs, therefore it will burn hotter and use less gas 
hence the smaller orifice) They are both used extensively for cooking 
fuels and other domestic uses.  In many rural parts of the country (and 
some less rural as well) propane is the gas of choice for kitchen use.  
Just drive by an old farm house and look for the distinctive BIG silver 
bottles outside the back door.  In another life, I worked as a chef in 
many large commercial kitchens that were fueled with propane.  In some 
ways I prefered them to NG since you could turn the flame up to rock and 
roll and not get as much scorching.  The burn characteristics of propane 
are such that the flame spreads out more than NG so you are less likely 
to get hot spots.

While I agree that there is possibly unneseccary risk in bringing a 20# 
propane tank into the house, the gas itself is no more expolsive or 
dangerous than NG in a normal use environment.  Of course if you want to 
get foolhardy, thats on you.

Now that I have gotten that off my chest, I will tell you that my brewery 
is set up outside and I do use a Cajun cooker for my heat source.  I so 
this more for the convenience of clean up than anything else.  If I had a 
set up that would allow me to brew in my basement ( ready supply of 
water, tile floor with floor drains etc) I would not have a problem with 
using my current set up there. I would just make sure I had a commercial 
vent hood to guarantee enough air flow to the outside and a CO detector 
to make sure I don't pass out too quickly and I'm in...

Thanks for your patience in allowing me to get this off my chest.


       **** ---- "There's always time for a Homebrew!" ---- ****
      O|~~| ------------ Steven Lichtenberg --------------- |~~|0
       `--'  ---------- steve at inet.ttgva.com -------------  `--'
              -------- Programmer/Analyst - TTG ---------
                 ---------- Alexandria, VA ------------
                  -----------------------------------
                  ENJOY LIFE--THIS IS NOT A REHEARSAL



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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:14:56 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: conditioning temp, cloves, whining


> From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
> Subject: elevated conditioning temperatures
> 
> I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience with elevated temperatures
> after bottling.  What would be the effect of, for example, leaving the bottles
> at 80F immediately after bottling, to speed up carbonation?  Sometimes my
> ales take up to 3 weeks to properly carbonate at 68F.  Would the elevated
> temperatures produce undesired flavors?

I did a side-by-side comparison with an ale a couple years back, and I thought
the cooler-conditioned one was a bit better, but then I didn't take the time
to let them cold-condition for a couple days after carbonation, which I've
found makes a lot of difference, and that might have changed things.

However, I will say that brewing with Wyeast's (and probably other folks')
Weihenstephan Wheat yeast, conditioning temps definately make a difference.
(Again, it's warm for banana, cold for clove.)  
- ---
On a similar topic, am I the only one that thinks that the phenolic flavors
in high-phenol wheat beers tastes almost nothing like cloves do?  I mean, I
see the comparison, and I can't think of a better name, but it's nowhere near
as similar to cloves as isoamyl ester is to banana.  Maybe I'm extra-sensitive
to another flavor in cloves, or less sensitive to any number of things.
- ---
> From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
> Subject: Re: Whiney Taste?

> I have to disagree with this. I can _always_ tell by taste when a 
> batch was primed with corn sugar. Even 1/2 cup to prime a 5 gallon 
> batch leaves a winey taste signature that detracts from the beer's
> quality. It was for this reason that I used DME to prime (back in the
> olden days when I still carbonated that way...).

Obviously, it's nearing time for more side-by-side comparisons.  However,
I suspect that your effects may be due to other changes in procedures.

I began DME priming at the same time as I switched from extract (+steep)
to all grain, and the same time I switched to using liquid yeasts and real
starters.  My beers got better.  Eventually, on Al K's advice, I switched 
back to using corn sugar to prime, and I haven't detected any difference.
(Again, I haven't done side-by-side comparisons...)

So, anyone have any other experience with this?  I will attempt to split the
next batch I bottle and do some serious tasting for differences.

 -R

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:10:01 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
Subject: faster carbonation?

Peter Maxwell asked about conditioning recently:

Peter> I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience with elevated  
Peter> temperatures after bottling.  What would be the effect of, for 
Peter> example, leaving the bottles at 80F immediately after bottling, to 
Peter> speed up carbonation?  Sometimes my ales take up to 3 weeks to  
Peter> properly carbonate at 68F.  Would the elevated temperatures produce 
Peter> undesired flavors?

This got me thinking about something I've been meaning to ask you all:

In Dave Miller's new book, _Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide_, he states 
something to the effect that, when priming with corn sugar, the corn 
sugar in the bottle get fermented very quickly - something like 24 - 48 
hours. All the (newly produced) CO2 is in the head space at this point. 
It's the disolving of the CO2 _back into the beer_ that takes 2-3 weeks. 

Now, with the assumption that CO2 will disolve into _cold_ beer faster 
than warm beer (not sure if this is true?) - would it be possible to get 
to your desired carbonation level faster by bottling, let the bottles sit 
at room temperature for a day or two, then dropping the temp to say, 
35-38F (frig/fidge temp) ?


Burp,

Jerry Cunningham
 - Annapolis, MD




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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 8:42:32 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at aisf.com>
Subject: Propane/nat gas orifice sizes


Regarding propane vs. nat gas:  When I ordered my Superb burners,
I got them with both types of orifices, just in case.  I have a
neighbor who works in a ball bearing factory (really!) and at the
request of another friend, I had my neighbor take both orifices in
to measure.  The nat gas aperture measured in at .110" and the
propane at .065".  FWIW.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at aisf.com


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1899, 12/02/95