---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: First wort hopping and decoction mashes (Jim Dipalma)
  Re: ftpmail (Spencer W Thomas)
  Lagering Pressurization / FWH ("Palmer.John")
  Filtering (Geza T Szenes/IPL)
  Advice on Cherry Beer (liquori)
  strange dregs ("Mark W. Wilson")
  DME/Reverse Osmosis Water (Dave Barker)
  Rissedorf Koelsch recipe ("Gabrielle Palmer")
  Filters/finings (Jim Busch)
  Oxygen Barrier Containers (Jeff Hewit)
  Guinness (Michael Coen)
  2,3 Pentanedione, La Chouffe (TMartyn)
  Advise for the lurkers. (Bucket99)
  Honey Wheat Beer. (Bucket99)
  Thanks for the response:hop downy mildew (Douhan)
  Keith's Newbie Advice (Kirk Fleming)
  Re: Advice needed for teaching a beginning homebrew class (Richard Gardner)
  Re: Predicting Final Gravity (JIM ANDERSON)
  zymurgy on cpbf (William E Steimle)
  Re: new yeast-1272 (WattsBrew)
  light ale (Chris Storey)
  wet-milling (Rob Lauriston)
  Prohibition revisited (Derek Lyons)
  Re: Breakers & Electricity & Suchlike (James M. Glenn)
  Hops types (Kathy Booth)
  yeast mutations (BOBKATPOND)
  Hangover cure (Dave Corio)
  CO2 regulators (dludwig)
  Straining (David Whitwell)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 10:38:25 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: First wort hopping and decoction mashes


Hi All,

In HBD# 1985, Rolland Everitt writes:

>Since reviving the thread on first wort hopping about a week ago
>I have become thoroughly confused by Jim Dipalma's posts in which
>he seems to refer to sparge and boil as though they were the same
>process.  What am I missing here?

  This is not the first person to tell me they are confused by my description
of this procedure. I can't quite understand what all the confusion is 
about. Here's my original post on the topic:

>>A few months back, George Fix posted here regarding a procedure called
>>first wort hopping. I don't recall the digest# in which his post appeared,
>>but the gist of it was that superior hop flavor and aroma could be achieved
>>by adding a small quantity of hops to the kettle during sparging.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>About 2 months ago, I brewed an altbier with one of my brewing buddies
>>(hi Scott!). I had just read Dr. Fix's post, and was interested in this
>>procedure. We added 1/4 ounce of fresh German Hallertaur leaf to the kettle
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>at the beginning of the sparge, and left it in for the duration of the sparge,
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>about 90 minutes (this was a 10 gallon batch).
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  When I read this, it very clearly says the hops are added to the kettle
(not the lauter tun) at the beginning of the sparge (not the start of the
boil), and left in the kettle during sparging. I honestly don't know how to
state that with any greater clarity. 

>Is first wort hopping nothing more than adding hops at the start
>of the boil (something I have always done)?  Don't we all do that?

  No, the hops are added at the start of the sparge, not the start of the boil,
and allowed to steep in the wort for the duration of the sparge. This is
done to provide hop flavor, *instead* of the traditional method of using a
late addition.
  As far as adding hops at the start of the boil, no, we don't all do that.
There are a number of advantages to boiling the wort for 15-30 minutes before
adding bittering hops. I don't want to drift too far off topic, so I'll refer
you to Jim Busch's excellent article on kettle reactions, which appeared in
Brewing Techniques about 6 months ago.

***************************************************************

Also in HBD# 1985, Bob McCowan writes:

>Jim Dipalma mentions that Dave Draper says that many brewers boil for 15
>minutes or so before adding hops.  This is to form the hot break, and
>improves utilization, and is most effective for infusion mashes.
>
>In a decoction mash, a lot of the hot-break proteins are left behind in the
>mash tun,

  Well, there is significant protein *reduction* caused by heat and mechanical
agitation from boiling the decoction. The hot-break is the *coagulation* of
soluble protein, I am not sure this is the same reaction. However, for
purposes of this discussion, I agree that somewhat less protein would be 
carried into sweet wort produced with a decoction mash.

>and the hops are typically added as soon as there is enough wort
>to start a boil.

  I've heard that this is a typical procedure in commercial breweries, i.e.,
the kettle is fired up as soon as the bottom is covered with wort. The idea
is that the sparge concludes just as the wort begins to boil, saving a great
deal of time.
  I don't know if this is a typical homebrewer procedure, I certainly can't
do it. I brew 10 gallon batches, it takes about 90 minutes to collect enough
sweet wort. If I were to fire up the kettle as soon as the bottom was covered
with wort, the wort would boil long before the sparge was done.

>  In my case first wort hopping consists of leaving the
>flame off under the kettle during the sparge.

Well, that would produce the same effect.

>By this argument, when decoction mashing you should subtract the first-wort
>hopping from the bittering hops. When infusion mashing, however, you should
>not subtract the first-wort hops ( or maybe prorate them) from  the
>bittering hops.

  Hmm, an interesing point, and one I had not considered. With less protein
in the sweet wort, there would be a smaller loss of utilization, and thus the
IBU contribution would be greater, and perhaps should be subtracted out.
  For the altbier, I used only 1/4 oz of 5%AA hops, in a 10 gallon batch.
Assuming 25% utilization (that number seems to work for me), I calculated
2.3 IBUs. Since it's likely I got something less than 25% utilization because
of the break forming, I felt the < 2.3 IBUs was probably neglible, but since
I'm an Anal Brewer(tm), I subtracted it out anyway. In a 5 gallon batch, or
where more than 1/4 ounce of hops are used, or with protein-reduced wort from
a decoction mash, the IBU contribution would be more significant, and perhaps
should be subtracted out. OTOH, it may also depend on the style being brewed,
i.e, don't subtract it out if brewing a Dusseldorf alt or an IPA, something
that can carry a few extra IBUs.
  Clearly, the issue of whether or not to subtract out the IBU contribution
from the first wort hopping is a complex one, there seem to be a lot of
factors involved. Time for some more experiments...

         Cheers,
          Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:56:57 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: ftpmail 

No, I don't have any help with ftpmail.  But if you've got web access,
the archives are online at Spencer's Beer Page (http://realbeer.com/spencer)
Follow the link to "Archive Sites".

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: 15 Mar 1996 08:00:06 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Lagering Pressurization / FWH

Dan Ritter wondered about any ill effects of force carbonating while finishing
the lagering step in a corny keg:

The are two scenarios I can picture, Dan, that may make this a poor idea.
1. There will be a not inconsiderable yeast layer on the bottom of the keg.
Granted, autolysis of a refrigerated beer is not a big concern but any
transport of the keg is going to stir it up, which may be annoying. Racking
from a secondary means almost zero yeast sediment in the keg.
2. During lagering, there is a small amount of offgassing of sulfur compounds,
and depending on your yeast strain, and the amount of time before carbonation,
the pressurization may seal those in, so to speak.

Both of these points are relatively minor potential problems, so I could just
as well say 'Go for it and see how it works'. For my lagers, I rack from a
glass secondary to a corny keg and then force carbonate. I do rock the keg a
bit while initially pressurizing it, but only for a minute or two and only
gently, rocking it from the top back and forth a few inches travel. (hmmm, good
sentence John). I will rock it a little the next day too. Carbonation only
takes a couple days.

**
I First Wort Hopped a double batch of beer soon after George's first post. The
batch was a Vienna recipe (12 gal) which I split into two carboys, pitching
Wyeast Bohemian to one, and California Lager (ie Steam) to the other. They were
fermented at different temp.s of course. In addition I removed a gallon of
first runnings and boiled it vigorously with another ounce of Goldings to up
the IBUs for the Steam batch, as well as adding a bit of caramelization.

Anyway, First wort hopping means to put Hops in the bottom of the boiler and
allowing the hops to soak as you collect the wort from the Lauter Tun, prior to
beginning the boil. In other words, the Hops are soaking in warm wort during
the sparge. After you have collected all of your runnings, you start the boil,
and once you have achieved your boil, you add your Bittering Hops like any
other brew. The difference is the warm soak of the First Wort Hops before the
boil.

So, on this combined batch, I put about an ounce plus of Styrian Goldings and
Ultra in the Boiler as I collected my wort from my Mash/Lauter tun. The Sparge
lasted about 45 minutes and the FWH soaked for that period of time in wort that
was probably about 130F (exit wort was 150F, but there is a lot of Thermal Mass
in the boiler.) My hop schedule was FWH/60/30 with about an ounce total at each
step of Goldings, Fuggles, Mt Hood and Ultra. (I was cleaning out the Freezer).

Anyway, the beers turned out very good, and true to style. The FWH was evident
in the Hop Aroma which was comparable to my usual 60/30/15, but a bit more
subdued. I havent had any of those beers lately (been sick) so I cant comment
on the flavor profiles better. I will be sure to evaluate them at several
different times over the weekend and post again on Monday.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


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Date: 15 Mar 96  9:02:25 
From: Geza T Szenes/IPL <Geza_T_Szenes/IPL.IPL at notes.ipl.ca>
Subject: Filtering

It's interesting to follow the current thread on filtering.  I can share my own 
experience;
I'm a wine maker as well as brewer;  therefore I have a Buon Vino minijet 
electric filter system, which sells for about $150 (all currency amounts in 
Canadian $), and a set of 3 filter pads cost around $3 for a one time use, 
enough to filter one batch (up to 10 gallons).  Buying the filter pads in bulk 
can cut the costs in half, and often supply houses will also rent filters for 
about $8/weekend.  It is possible to purchase a rental filter for about 1/2 the 
cost of a new one.  The filter pads come in 3 degrees in fineness, 
unfortunately I can't recall the microns right now.  The medium pad is supposed 
to remove 90% of the yeast, the fine pad is supposed to remove 100%.

Anyways; as a kegger, I have filtered several beers using the medium pads, and 
I have not noticed a significant difference between the filtered & non-filtered 
product.  None of my friends did either.  I never used the fine pads, since I 
think that it would remove a little too much of the "character " from the beer 
in addition to the all the yeast.

My guideline was to filter light ales, bitters, lagers, but not filter dark, 
black or high gravity beers, but it really depends on the time and availability 
of the filters.  It takes about 15 minutes to filter 19 liters of liquid, and I 
filter directly from the secondary into my corny keg.  Since I have not noticed 
a significant difference, I don't think that the added cost in time and filter 
pads are worth it.  However it may make an intrinsic difference to the brewer 
knowing that the beer was filtered.
What would be required is some scientific blind taste tests, where several 
beers would be served some filtered and some not to see if there is a more 
valid statistical evidence, as opposed to anecdotal.   

Currently I have 4 beers on tap and none of them have been filtered.  

Also if you are bottle conditioning, you should not filter as the yeast is 
required to complete the bottle fermentation.  Of course you could filter to 
remove the fermentation yeast, and then introduce a different yeast for the 
bottle conditioning. 

As for Wines I believe that filtering makes a significant difference.


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:34:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: liquori at ACC.FAU.EDU
Subject: Advice on Cherry Beer

Dear Collective,

I am a novice brewer interested in creating a cherry flavored beer. I am 
an extract/partial mash brewer and do not have the facilities for a lager 
, so I need to brew an ale. I am interested in brewing a beer that is  more 
of a cherry beer, similar to Sam Adams Cherry Lambic (yes, I know it's 
not really a lambic)and not a Kriek lambic. I have looked through several 
books for recipes and may be brewing Papazian's Cherries in the Snow from 
NCJHB. 

What I would like to know is if anyone has brewed this before? Is there a 
better recipe out there? I am looking for a beer that is fairly sweet, is 
this a good choice? Most importantly, does anyone have any experience 
brewing with cherries (or other fruit) and hints on the process? I am an 
ambitious novice and am trying to discover any pitfalls before I begin. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA...Kevin...liquori at acc.fau.edu

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:50:26 -0800
From: "Mark W. Wilson" <mwilson at ichips.intel.com>
Subject: strange dregs


  I recently bottled a Weizen, 10 days after pitching a pre-started Wyeast
3056 (Bavarian wheat?).  (OG 1.064, FG 1.019) about a 2:1 malt/wheat ratio.
When washing out my carboy, I noticed some lumps (total of about 2
tablespoons worth) that were too large to go down the drain.  They were dark
brown and rubbery, looked and felt sort of like dense natural sponge.  Beer
smells and tastes ok (so far) Any idea what these blobs are?  Effects of
autolysis maybe?  Or is this an occasional side-effect of the strain (3056
is usually a little chunky anyway, but I've never seen pieces this large and
this dark in previous batches)

 -Mark

Opinions my own.


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 08:53:31 EST
From: Dave Barker <dave_barker at jabil.com>
Subject: DME/Reverse Osmosis Water

     I've brewed about four batches of ale and haven't been too impressed 
     with my results. All the brews have had a similar taste. Not BAD, mind 
     you, just not great. I've been told that I might expect that since I'm 
     brewing with extract. I suspected that the cause might be the RO 
     water. 
        My local homebrew store tells me that there is no use in trying to 
     treat the water because the DME should have all the attributes of the 
     water used to make the DME. Is there any truth to that, or could I 
     benefit from the use of gypsum and salts?
     
                                TIA,
                                        Vid


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:17:28 EST
From: "Gabrielle Palmer" <gabriellepalmer at e-mail.com>
Subject: Rissedorf Koelsch recipe

                                                                                
Hail Collective!                                                                
                                                                                
Does anyone have any suggestions on formulating a 5 gallon extract/specialty    
grains recipe for Rissedorf Koelsch? All information appreciated; grains,       
hops, water treatment, amounts, etc.                                            
                                                                                
Gabrielle Palmer                                                                
Die Design Standards                                                            
Phone: (313)59-42107     PROFS ID: GPALMER6                                     
Fax:   (313)32-24359     internet: gabriellepalmer at e-mail.com                   

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:35:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Filters/finings

Bob McCowan writes about filtering:

<I don't, and none of the homebrewers that I know filter their beer either.

I know several very accomplished homebrewers who do filter, one as a
routine procedure.

<Given some time most of the yeast will drop out on their own.  Some of the
<brewpubs filter, but they often are serving beer within 2 weeks of brewing
<it.  Freshness is good, but I find that the brewpubs that rush their beer
<and filter it tend to have lackluster beers.  Maybe they're filtering out
<too much, leaving the beer thin.

Most of this is quite true.  Most yeasts in most systems will eventually
drop out.  Some will almost never drop, like that Widmer Hefewiezen
strain (actually a Dusseldorf Alt strain, but the vast majority of alts
are also filtered).   As for brewers pushing out beer in two weeks, this
is prefectly normal and in some ways quite desirable.  Most ale strains
are done reducing and conditioning a few days after primary is complete,
others can get smoother with a little time and cold conditioning.  Id
be suprised if Sierra Pale ale spends much time in a conditioning tank.
As for lackluster beers from filtering, this can be a result of micro-
filtration which is sterile filtration below 1 micron.  I feel this is
very undesirable.

And John Palmer follows up with this:

<So, for me and my beer, no filtering is needed. I dont see a need for finings
<either. I may have a small amount of chill haze, but by and large, my beer is
<clear. I remember Jim Busch commenting on his use of finings and planning on
<using filtration. But Jim likes "Cask Conditioned Real Ale" which is consumed
<only 2 wks or so after pitching. It really is a wholly different way of
<producing and serving beer so fining and filtering are part of that
<Style/Method. You see what I am saying?

Just to clarify  ;-)  a point here.  For cask ales one can use finings
or not, but filtered beer is not cask ale.  Since its rare that I can
get to all the cask beer in a short time, it is typical for some of
my cask ales to sit for weeks either in the 60F basement or in the 
frige.  They are quite clear without finings, using American ale yeast
or the super flocculant ATCC 1187.  While I dont filter much beer, its
a great tool to have as an option and I feel it improves some beers,
assuming we are talking a 3-5 micron filtration and not sterile.

A microbrewery Im an investor in, Victory Brewing, has a doppelbock
online now.  One of the brewers, who has a background brewing for a
German style micro that never filters, prefers the unfiltered doppel.
Our other brewer/brewmaster prefers the opposite, and his experience
was with filtered beers primarily.  Neither is right or wrong but there
are definite production and storage factors involved with the choices.
Beer that will be around for a extended time is best removed from the
fermentation yeast to avoid the autolysis problem.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch
Colesville, Md


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:05:59 -0500
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Oxygen Barrier Containers



Does anyone out there know of an oxygen barrier container that
is generally available?  I've gathered that the plastic used in
the basic Tupperware/Rubbermaid containers will not keep out
oxygen, making them unsuitable for storing hops.  Glass appears
to be the best bet, but I'm hesitant to use glass in my
freezer.  The way my family tends to toss things around, it's
just a matter of time before a glass container will break.
I've seen clear acrylic containers, and wondor if they will
be suitable for storing hops in a freezer. 



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hewit                  
Midlothian, Virginia 
                          

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:58:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Michael Coen <COEN.MICHAEL at igate.pprd.abbott.com>
Subject: Guinness

Another quick question.........can anyone tell me how to contact the
Guinness Brewery via the net????????? I ran into a local restaurant
selling Guinness which was way too cold and not being pushed with
Nitrogen.......... and not even served in a pint glass........... and
the server had no knowledge of proper Guinness serving etiquette.  I was
under the impression that Guinness had very stricy guiselines on who
could sell there products and that they had inspectore to insure such a
high standard.........Thanks again............... oh, anyone interested
in a sour mash technique to make a Guinness - like stout let me know if
you want my suggestions..........gotta get to work.........Cheers!!!!



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:11:17 -0500
From: TMartyn at aol.com
Subject: 2,3 Pentanedione, La Chouffe

Bob Waterfall wrote a couple of days ago:

>there is a Belgian beer that has a very prominent 2,3 pentanedione character
>snip
>my guess is La Chouffe.

Could be, but I don't think so.  I was at the Brasserie d'Achouffe last week
and in talking with Kris Bouwaert, the owner, understood that they use only
malted barley and candi sugar (light and dark).  We had a very comprehensive
tour, and I didn't see any signs of honey containers.  Still, Kris is a
pretty shrewd marketing guy, and maybe has a few secrets.  For example, I've
read that La Chouffe is spiced with coriander, bog myrtle, and maybe one or
two other spices, but Kris would only admit to the coriander.

By the way,d'Achouffe is having a four day party August 14-17, 1997,
celebrating their 15th anniversary (I think), and we're all very cordially
invited!  If you're going to be in Europe, consider making this part of your
plans - some of the most beautiful countryside I've ever seen.

On the topic of 2,3 pentanedione, I brewed an all-grain Munich Helles two
years ago that reeked of honey.  I pitched with Wyeast 2206, fermented at 48
degrees - all right by the book.  However, I certainly underpitched and
underaerated, and ended with a terminal gravity of 19, versus the 12 I was
shooting for.  The honey character was rather coarse and not particularly
pleasant or smooth.  Interestingly, there was no perceptible diacetyl, which
I would have expected to be overwhelming.

I also like using clover honey as an adjunct; it makes an interesting
ingredient in Pilsners, and I've used it instead of candisugar in trippels.
 To my palate, though, it doesn't leave a perceptible honey character, but
rather makes for a fairly dry and crisp beer that really shows off the hops.

Question (finally) :  If one wanted to brew a beer with some residual honey
flavor, how would you go about it?  Does anyone have any ideas about creating
and controlling an appropriate 2,3 pentanedione level, such as is sometimes
done with diacetyl, without creating a beer reeking of diacetyl?  What
fermentation conditions favor 2,3 pentanedione formation over diacetyl?

Anyone?


Tom Martyn
TMartyn at aol.com
Brattleboro, VT

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:55:44 -0500
From: Bucket99 at aol.com
Subject: Advise for the lurkers.

Hello all,

Being a new brewer myself, I would like to pass along a few hints and
observations
for anyone that is new to brewing.

1. HBD is a GOLDMINE of information for the new brewer, it is better to learn
from
the collective experience of others than be in the dark on your own.

2. Local Brew supply shops are usually a good place for information also,
KIRK's Brew supplies in Lincoln, NE is my only local outlet, and Kirk has
helped me
tremendously in improving my beer by his wisdom. (I apoligize for the
shameless
plug here).

3. Join a club or subscribe to Zymurgy (See above).

4. Support the hobby and pass along your knowlwedge to others.

5. Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew.
    (Most problems are not as bad as they seem, and most batches of beer will
come
    out at LEAST drinkable in the end, despite the best efforts of new
brewers to ruin
    them). 


    Paul McFarland
    

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:05:49 -0500
From: Bucket99 at aol.com
Subject: Honey Wheat Beer.

Hello All,

I am set to brew a Honey-Wheat beer this weekend and would appreciate your
comments on 
the recipe.

Frankly I believe it will turn out okay, but am worried it may be a little
darker than
I plan, what with all the fermentables involved.

I am aiming for an American Wheat with a light color, and a finish that is
balanced 
between sweet and bitter.

I would appreciate comments on this recipe, E-Mail would be fine.


(Bucket99  at AOL.COM)

Paul McFarland

Honey Wheat Ale Recipe:


3.3 Lbs Munton & Fison Wheat malt extract
3.3 Lbs Munron & Fison Light malt extract
1.0 Lbs Crystal malt
0.25 Oz Hallertauer Hops for bittering.
0.25 Oz Hallertauer hops for flavor.
        (NO AROMA HOPS).
2.0 lbs Clover Honey (Add to wort and boil for five minutes)

2  packets Muntons dry ale yeast (6 grams each) use a quart starter prior.

















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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:58:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Douhan <gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Thanks for the response:hop downy mildew


	Thanks to everybody who e-mailed me. Several people wanted to 
know more about growing hops. The Oregon State University extension 
service  has a web site that gives good info on growing hops in the home garden.
The address is http://www.oda.state.or.us/hop/exter104.html.
Greg Douhan
gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu



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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:12:17 +0000
From: flemingkr at market1.com (Kirk Fleming)
Subject: Keith's Newbie Advice

In #1983 Keith advised brewers who have been intimidate by all-grain
to 'just do it'.  I just had to butt in and second that advice. All
I want to say is that there is so much pleasure to be gained from
doing a beer from scratch, and so little to be lost by not doing it
"perfectly", there is simply NO reason not to.  Well, there IS one
more thing I want to say: 5 gallons is not a magic number and if you
have been reluctant to do a grain-based batch due to equipment limits,
then for heaven's sake do a smaller batch.  Try 3 gallons!

KRF Colorado Springs


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:47:59 -0600
From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at monarch.papillion.ne.us>
Subject: Re: Advice needed for teaching a beginning homebrew class

Michael Swan wrote:
>But should I even use extract--since the beer will never be fermented,
>shouldn't I just use colored water?  And should I even boil the wort?---

How else can you effectively show them the fantastic results of a boilover?
Also, if you are just using a kit without extra hops, probably just a 15
minute boil is adequate ensure sanitization, and will get across the
important point to boil the wort regardless of what the little book of
instructions say (I do NOT have much respect for whoever wrote those stupid
little books).  Other points I'd stress for beginners are:
  - Bottles - brown best, green OK.  Anything that isn't twistoff is
adequate, despite the instructions that say "returnable only"
  - Avoid buying "beer in a bag" or "beer machine" single step kits.
  - Sanitize, but don't worry too much.  Beer was made for thousands of
years before we knew about yeast and bacteria.
  - Avoid HSA, but aerate when cold when pitching yeast.
  - Don't clean the kitchen just before brewing - you'll disturb all the
critters you don't want in the beer - they'll become airbourne, and settle
into your wort.
  - It's acceptable to add your priming sugar as a batch add - and is much
easier, rather than to each individual bottle (like the British kit
instructions say).
  - AVOID adding large amounts of corn sugar to the recipe.  Add plain malt
extract instead.  The big brewers do it because it is cheaper (might as well
corrupt them towards drinking/making something other than megaswill).
  - Beer takes some time to mature.  It will NOT taste all that great when
you bottle it.  NO, your beer is not ruined (I remember worrying too!).

Good luck, and I hope you don't get too many phone calls after midnight!
BTW, I've seen somewhere on the net a guide on how to teach a brew class
that was good (check alpha.rollanet.org).


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 19:53:00 -0500
From: jim.anderson at execnet.com (JIM ANDERSON)
Subject: Re: Predicting Final Gravity


Subject: How to Predict the Terminal Gravity

"Clark D. Ritchie" <ritchie at ups.edu> writes:

>Does anyone know a good way to predit a recipe's terminal gravity?  I
>realize that there are a lot of variables involved (temperature, yeast
>attenuation, ingredients, etc.), however there must be a good formula for
>making a ballpark estimate.  I've searched all over and can't find one.  The
>yeast FAQ has a lot of good stuff, but all of the equations require you to
>know the FG.

I forget my source, but the rule-of-thumb is 1/4 O.G.  For example, with
an O.G. of 1.044, a F.G. of 1.011 could be predicted (only the digits
following the decimal point are used).  Hope this helps.

  - Jim

 

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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:56:32 -0800 (PST)
From: William E Steimle <usteiw00 at mcl.ucsb.edu>
Subject: zymurgy on cpbf

I just got the fall '95 Zymurgy because they'd messed up my address over 
on the AOB computers.  Anyway, my question has to do with the article on 
counter pressure bottle filling.  I don't seem to understand their method 
of rating the cpbfs effectiveness in terms of air absorption.  When they 
say they rate the fillers on a percentage above or below the two 
milliliter homebrew standard for air, are they saying that a positive 
percentage figure lets more air in, or that it is a better system for 
keeping air out?  From the wording of the article, I would think it would be 
the former, but when I look at their tests, the expensive models (over $100)
score positive percentages, and the $.20 version would appear to outperform 
all of them.  Could someone shed a little light on this, because I find it kind 
of hard to believe that this is the case?

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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:29:00 -0500
From: WattsBrew at aol.com
Subject: Re: new yeast-1272

Thanks to all of you for the response to my request.  I will try this new
strain a few times  and let the collective know what I think.

WattsBrew (Bill Watt in Clarence Center, NY)

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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:10:50 GMT
From: Chris Storey <cstorey at mail.peterboro.net>
Subject: light ale

I'm a mash-extract brewer so far. I'm requesting a recipe for a lighter
tasting ale. I can use less malt extract, but it might taste too watery. I
do not want to make a Bud or Coors. You might as well drink water. Some of
the people who drop in say that it sits too heavy. Maybe there is some
adjunct I can add that will make it lighter, but not sacrifice taste or
alcohol. My fermenter is 23 litres or 6 gallons. Thanks. E-mail is fine.
Note: If you visit Ontario, try Upper Canada Lager. Pricey, but worth it.

                           Chris in Cavan, Ont.


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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 08:12 PST
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: wet-milling

Jim Booth <kbooth at isd.ingham.k12.mi.us>  wrote about tempering of malt:

>In the days of yore when I was a student in flour milling classes
>at Kansas State U, tempering of grain before milling to toughen the bran
>was a standard part of flour milling.  <snip>
>Would tempering of our home brewer malt reduce some of the
>tannins in our home brew?  Tempering is different then wet milling which
>I understand some of the big boys use but it might accomplish much the
>same. Has someone out there tempered malt? What does wet milling accomplish?

I went on a tour of the United Canadian Malt plant in Peterborough, Ontario
where they make malt extract.  They do wet-milling and when you look at the
mash, it looks as if the grains have not been ground at all since most of
what you can see is husks that are completely intact.  I was amazed.  The
plant manager provided the analogy of popping a grape out of its skin.  The
water just softened everything, I think he said.  Sure would be a great way
to keep down the dust when grinding!

>From that it would seem that wet-milling or tempering has the potential to
reduce tannins derived from malt husks, but I haven't tried it (yet).  Might
provide a good Silly Tricks story.

The references to wet-milling I found talk about practical processing
concerns such as faster runoff and an increase in extract, but nothing about
the quality of the extract.

Jim, is the toughening of the bran a matter of making it less brittle?  Or
making it relatively tougher by softening the rest of the grain?

 - Rob Lauriston, Vernon, B.C.


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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:47:16 -0800
From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net>
Subject: Prohibition revisited

>>The average number of alcoholic drinks that college students with "A"
>>averages cunsume is 3.5 per week.  The average number of alcoholic
>>drinks that college students with "D" or "F" averages is 11 per week.
>>I got this info in a nutrition class I had while at N.C. State.

Sounds like propoganda to me...  I maintained at 90+ average during my Navy
training while consuming *far* more than 11 drinks a week.  (And it was
*NOT* an easy school.  The equivalent of a BE in 34 weeks.)


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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by grove.iup.edu
From: jmglenn at grove.iup.edu (James M. Glenn)
Subject: Re: Breakers & Electricity & Suchlike

A note on the electrics question: BREAKERS are NOT there to protect YOU -
they were created to protect PROPERTY from fire! You can be toasted
thoroughly, through and through, heart and brain absolutely dead, dead,
dead, and the breaker will not trip.

14-ga. wire WILL handle a 20-amp load for a short period. When it heats up,
though, resistance increases, thereby increasing the temp rise, thereby
increasing the resistance, thereby...Get the picture? Ultimately (and
fairly shortly, depending on peak load) the failure of the wire can be
spectacular!

To protect your BODY, use some form of "Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor."
These come in various forms. The ones that are installed in your bathroom
are perhaps the most familiar. There are breaker/GFCI combos that go into
your distribution panel.

My advice: Use the correct wiring for your installation. Use a GFCI
Breaker. Have a certified electrician who KNOWS what s/he's doing either
BUILD your installation or at the very least INSPECT AND TEST your
jerry-rig BEFORE you energize it! If you don't want to mess up an existing
(i.e., rented) structure and its components, invesigate plug-in or wire-in
adaptations which incorporate GFCI breakers (contractors will install
temporary panel/outlets with GFCIs at construction sites. For any at-grade
use of electrical power, GFCIs are mandated by the NFPA's National
Electrical Code.)

We don't wanna read/hear the news of "Electrocuted Inventor Found
Decomposed in Puddle of Sticky Wort, now do we???

Hope this helps some. Have you thought of propane camp stoves? I understand
that combustion is complete and gives off only CO2 and water vapor.

====>James Glenn



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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:57:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Kathy Booth <kbooth at isd.ingham.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Hops types


	I'm trying to recreate the Budweiser beer of the 1940's, or 
earlier in the century.  I've a 20% rice bill with 6 row malt, and an old 
fashioned lager yeast, and Budweiser said they used Saatz, Hallertau, 
Auscha and Backa hops.  Has anybody out there know what comtempory flavor 
cousins to Auscha and Backa might be.  I've never seen them and the recent
article on hop linages in Brewers Techniques doesn't mention them. Thanks! 

	Stupid brewer technique: I was boiling rice via the double boiler 
technique when I lifted the 16qt inner container with 8 qts liquid and 3# 
rice almost all the way out of the 20Qt outer boiler.  Almost out wasn't 
far enuf because as I turned away I dragged the 20 Qt off the range top 
and it fell with just a couple of drops on the back of my legs, and a tidal 
wave of boiling water across the floor and under the refrigerator.  You won't 
believe what the rebound wave swept into the next room (the carpeted 
dining room).  I was so relieved that the boiling water (that fell without 
my awareness until it hit the floor), didn't douse my legs, I followed the 
AHA advice and celebrated until I quit shaking.

	Speaking of that AHA slogan, outsiders who have never had the 
context of a brewing disaster probably don't understand how appropiate 
it is.  I think we ought to have a different slogan for the great 
uninitiated public and keep the "Relax......" as a private inhouse thing.  
Jim Booth, Lansing, MI       Cheers








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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:18:17 -0500
From: BOBKATPOND at aol.com
Subject:  yeast mutations

From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
>>As a rule 3 generations are probably enough for homebrewers. We can't 
>>possibly be as clean as a commercial setup, where they have heavy duty 
>>caustics and acid sanitisers and boiling water to run through all of their
>>equipment, so we are risking passing an infected yeast on to another batch.

>Yeast does not suddenly mutate after three generations in the brewery. The
'>3 generation rule' is arbitrary and basically makes little sense. I
>consider it to be a paranoid, over-kill safety measure somebody just dreamed
>up. Contamination from wild yeasts or bacteria is an entirely different
>problem from the selection of a mutant brewing strain, and thus should be
>handled as a separate problem.

It is an arbitrary rule but it does make sense. I agree that yeast does not
suddenly mutate after 3 generations.  But the infection factor definitly
plays a role here, which is what I was alluding to. The cost of new yeast
after 3 generations, is small compared to the cost of dumping your entire
batch if contaminated.

>>As far as mutations, it depends on the strain of yeast and how much you
>>stress the yeast. High gravity beers stress the yeast and should not be
>>repitched, some say dark beers also.

>True, mutation rates are somewhat strain dependent, however "stress" doesn't
>necessarily induce mutations and it's incorrect to assume that all mutants
>will have greater fitness under a particular set of conditions and will thus
>be selected. The vast majority of mutants won't dominate the population and
>many are lethal, thus instantly self-destructing. While it's true that high
>gravity worts stress the yeast, the main reason this yeast usually isn't
>repitched is that high concentrations of alcohol weaken the yeast and one
>should never start a fermentation with a weak culture.

Since you are a skeptic here are some quotes for you. From "Brewing Lager
Beer" Noonan, pg.74 "Because a ferment lacks nutrients needed by the culture
yeast, or because the temperature or pH of the ferment does not suit the
particular yeast strain, does not mean that wild yeast strains, mutations, or
other microbes will not find the conditions ideal. Under normal conditions,
one in a million yeast cells spontaneously mutates; under hostile conditions
mutations increase dramatically."
pg 146 "yeast mutations tend to adapt to a sudden temperature change more
readily than culture yeast." 

I still believe stress does increase mutations, it will also weaken the
yeast, a good point. 
>>Lager yeasts are more prone than ale yeasts.
>>Some Weissen yeasts change rapidly and lose that clove-like flavor.

>Are you sure about this (both statements, particularly the first)? Can you
>provide a reference please? (I'm a skeptic, sorry.) From what I understand,
>most strains of brewers' yeast are quite stable genetically.

I can't at present give you a reference on this.  Brewpubs do not use their
lager yeasts nearly as many generations as their ale yeasts, Fix states this
in Principles of Brewing Science. It is not entirely clear as to why in his
text. If I can find another reference, I'll post it later.

Bob Morris

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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:02:43 -0600
From: Dave Corio <dcorio at inav.net>
Subject: Hangover cure

The only sure-fire hangover cure I ever found was pure oxygen. The 
pilot of our corporate plane saw me one morning in pretty sad shape. He 
put the cockpit oxygen mask on me for about a minute and within 5 
minutes my head was clear and my tummy loved me again! I never got that 
potted often enough to look into a home supply, but I understand than 
many pharmacies have small tanks available. 
                                Don't worry!
                              Have a home-brew!
				Dave Corio


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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 04:14:00 +0000
From: dludwig at mail.ameritel.net
Subject: CO2 regulators

>CO2 is *not* liquified when delivered in compressed gas cylinders.  The
>saturation pressure of of CO2 at 70 F is 853.4 psia, size K cylinders come
>at about 850 psia when full, the 5 lb cylinders most homebrewers use are
>filled to 500 psia.  
Not mine.
I think you would be hard pressed to get 5 lbs of gaseous CO2 into a 5 lb
CO2 tank. This is a good argument for purchasing a two gauge regulator. You
can see for yourself what the supply pressure is and how it does not change
when depleting the tank until the liquid has boiled off. 

Regarding two gauge regulators, if anything, I think from a safety
perspective, it is useful to know whether you have high pressure on your
regulator or not, especially when dealing with 500 - 800 psi. The cost of
one gauge is $15 or less and any CO2 regulator that is sold that does not
have ready provisions for a supply side pressure gage is worth passing over
in my opinion. 
Cheers
Dave Ludwig


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Date: 16 Mar 96 11:57:00 -0800
From: David.Whitwell at f255.n138.z1.fidonet.org (David Whitwell)
Subject: Straining


Oh great brewing collective...

I just put my third batch in the primary yesterday, and I have a
question about the one step of the whole process I'm not happy with yet.
Whenever I try to strain the trub from the wort, I end up with a big
mess. I'm brewing from extract, in a concentrated boil (2 gallons),
using hop pellets. Here's what I've tried so far:

Batch 1: While the wort was still hot, I dipped a sanitized strainer
into the wort repeatedly, getting as much trub as possible.
Problems: took forever, didn't remove cold-break material, messy.

Batch 2: After cooling the concentrated wort in the boiling pot, I
siphoned it into a strainer over the mouth of the funnel and into
the carboy.  Problem: Took a long time to siphon as the trub slowed
everything down, strainer filled up, requiring me to pinch off the flow,
dump the strainer repeatedly, messy.

Batch 3: Used a "whirlpool" in the boiling pot to attempt to have the
trub settle.  Siphoned into another pot for cooling.  Siphoned into the
carboy to remove the cold-break material.  Problem: trub never came out
of suspension during first siphon, so there was no "trub cone" in the
center of the pot, and after it was cooled, if clogged up the siphon
hose again.  Most of it is in the bottom of the primary now.

So, given that I will continue to do concentrated boils, and that I
don't have tons to invest into this silly problem, any creative
solutions that have been useful for you?

Thanks in advance, David


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