---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Kids!  Don't try this at home! (Woody Weaver)
  Hot Summer?  Who Cares? (KennyEddy)
  Missing Email (hollen)
  N2O for CO2 ? ("Albert van Sambeek")
  Thank You Rob (TArnott)
  Grain Mills (Marty Tippin)
  Re: road trip ("Dave Higdon")
  Re: Mills (Geoff Scott)
  corny keg repair / cleaning scortched wort / grain mills ("Keith Royster")
  geting the labels on. (Ed Dix)
  Subject: Kitchen Aid Grain Mill (Scott Abene)
  Extraction Yield Sucks! (Denis Barsalo)
  Re: HBD/AOB, Hoover Universal keg (Chris Cooper)
  Water analysis (John Wilkinson)
  SanFran Brewpub Suggestions ("James S. Bayer")
  "Forever Plaid" (Kathy Booth)
  Stuck Sparge (Jack Schmidling)
  Jack's Offer ("Decker, Robin E.")
  Grain mill selection (John Wilkinson)
  honey malt (Paul Brian)
  Sunshine Challenge Results (Ron Raike)
  cheesey/aluminum/fermenting in Cornys/priming/Kitchen Aid grain mill (Algis R Korzonas)
  Please unsubscribe Jake from your mailing list. (Russell Mast)
  Re: Lagering in corny (Dennis Cabell)
  screens for keg lauter tun (Ken Johnson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 6 May 96 18:07 PDT
From: Woody Weaver <woody at altair.stmarys-ca.edu>
Subject: Kids!  Don't try this at home!

Greetings, everyone.

Ah, the perils of brewing big brews without thinking!  Clearly, I made
a number of mistakes in that batch, and I wanted to summarize for the
net.  (Some of the authors also commented to the digest, so some of
these points are repeated.)

IMHO, the errors in order of importance:

1.  Don't dry hop in the primary.

My intent was to have a nice clean secondary, to facilitate a clearer
beer.  As was pointed out, not only did I not achieve the objective
(since the outgassing of CO2 tends to remove the hop aromas) but I ran
a real risk of infection.  Dry hopping in the secondary minimizes the
problem of the CO2 scrubbing out the hop aromatics, and in addition
the alcohol content and the high yeast count helps keep the yeast tops
in the ecological niche, minimizing the risk of infection.  That was a
definate no.

2.  Don't _expect_ to have to use the champagne yeast.

The particular yeast I used, Wyeast Belgian Abbey, is fairly alcohol
tolerant.  The wort may want fresh yeast as it gets close to the end,
or it may progress normally (in practise, for this experiment, all
seems well).  The champagne yeast should be considered last resort to
fix a stuck fermentation.

3.  Pitch big.

When doing high gravity beers, it appears the higher the pitching rate
the better.  I did a little 250 ml pitch.  One correspondent suggested
1.5 liters of yeast slurry!  Probably the best idea (that I intend to
use next time I try a really big beer) is to brew something like an
India Pale Ale and throw the high gravity wort on the dregs.
Curiously, I did almost that with a 1.090 Imperial stout -- brewed a
sweet stout with the Wyeast Scottish Ale yeast, and then through the
1.090 on top of its dregs.  It (predictably) exploded out through the
airlock, and all over the floor... but brought the 1.090 down to a dry
1.018 after a two week primary/secondary.

4.  Think numerically about the hopping rate.

Unfortunately, I didn't -- and its clear I underhopped.  Had I thought
about it, I probably should have used Tinseth's calculator, and
checked the style guidelines for typical numbers.  It really didn't
strike me that the beer has almost *half again* as much sugar as the
imperial, and so probably wants something like half again as much HBU.


Kids!  Try this at home!

On the good side, I managed to not worry too much about it (can you
say "learning experience"?  Sure.  I knew you could.) and at this
point I'm pretty happy about how things are going.  Yesterday, I went
to the friendly neighborhood brew store (quick plug: BREW, on Marina
just west of 880 in San Leandro, San Francisco Bay area -- nice place,
about 10,000 sq ft, fresh extract for $1.39/lb, nice owners, lots of
extra junk, no affiliation etc just happy customer) and picked up a
glass carboy.  I racked the brandywine into the carboy.  At this
point, its at 1.052 and still bubbling happily -- about a bloop per
minute through the S-shaped airlock (as opposed to 10-20 bloops per
minute at peak fermentation).  The tasting at this point showed that
it wasn't in fact infected, was already pretty high-alcohol, and was
indeed too sweet.  (One correspondent suggested hopping the heck out
of some wort, and bittering the brandywine that way, but I think I'm
going to keep it as it is -- spouse likes sweet.)  So far, so good.

Incidentally, this is my first experience with this yeast.  The
brandywine has a unique taste which is I assume the yeast.  I strongly
associated it with North Coast Brewing's seasonal "PranQster" beer.
(NCB is a brewpub/microbrew in Ft. Bragg, CA.)  Does anyone know if
this is the same yeast as they use?  Can anyone tell me of a
commercial brew that uses this yeast available in the SF Bay area?
(One correspondent mentioned that this is the Celis yeast, but I am
not aware of seeing Celis available for sale here.)

Thanks to the HBD and all who responded to my query.  I think you all
have improved my beer making technique.  Thanks!

- --woody

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 00:12:38 -0400
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Hot Summer?  Who Cares?

Well, now, with all the talk about National Homebrew Day being May or Fall or
hot or whatever, I thought I'd toss in another shameless plug for my
"Fermentation Chiller", plans for which are available at

http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/lagcab.html

Keeps beer fermenting happily at 60 - 70 deg F even when it's 90F in the
garage!  Or ferment at lager temperatures if you have a cool basement.  Holds
fermenting wort temp to ~2F variation.  It's just a glorified chambered
icebox with a thermostat and fan, and it "runs" on two gallon jugs of ice.
 Surprisingly efficient (change the ice ~2 days when it's 90F ambient; 3-4
days when 75-80F), inexpensive to build ($60 or so with brand new material;
much less if parts are "scrounged"), compact (16" x 2' x ~3'), lightweight
(lift with one hand...store it in the attic or a closet in the non-National
Homebrew Months).

In the year or so since I originally published the plans, I've received some
feedback from folks who have built one (or more).  A couple good ones to keep
in mind:

* Tie a string to the handle of the lower water jug.  My arms are long but
it's still a reach to get that one out!

* If using a liquid-metal thermometer, mount it to the cabinet with Velcro to
make re-levelling (for accuracy) easier if it's moved.

* Use duct tape on the seams, and cover with loud (but NOT plaid) contact
paper.

* Use a heavy book instead of dowels to secure the top.  A good fit on the
front panel eliminates the need for them there too.

* You could substitute 1/2" plywood for the Fan Board, and 1/4" for the
Baffle Board.  The Fan Board needs only to be somewhat insulative (since it's
inside the box); the Baffle Board merely redirects airflow.  This might make
resizing the cut plan easier to use with various fermenter shapes.

* Add a condensation drain (a hole with a short length of tubing) at the
bottom of the Ice Chamber.  In our dry environment this isn't much of a
problem but a Chiller in Mississippi in August will likely need to take a
leak.

This weekend project has enabled me to keep my cool while brewing year round.
 I used it all last year in 100+F heat and we're already having 95-ish
temperatures here in El Paso, so I know it'll work well in milder parts of
the country.

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com


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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 08:27:18 PDT
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Missing Email


Since Thursday, about three people sent me Email that I have not
gotten a chance to reply to.  This morning when I went to reply to it,
those messages were gone.  If you are expecting a reply from me and
have not yet gotten it, please resend.

dion


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Date: Tue,  7 May 96 11:53:45 +0100
From: "Albert van Sambeek" <avs at beta.fuji-ef.nl>
Subject: N2O for CO2 ?

Hello fellow homebrewers

I'm a Dutch homebrewer and I have beer in a 5 Liter keg (about 2 gallon).
I found a lot of N2O patrons (?), and now I have the next question.

Can I use N2O instead of CO2 for my keg ?

I know that the same question was asked a few HBD's ago, but I don't remember
the answer.

Albert "Sam's Brew" van Sambeek
The Netherlands



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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:12:03 -0400
From: TArnott at aol.com
Subject: Thank You Rob

I wanted to get in line to say thanks to Rob.  I'm mostly a lurker/sometimes
poster, but I realize what a great job he's done keeping this thing going.
 Thanks Rob, have a great time over seas!

*****************

My 0.02:  Lets give the AOB a chance.  After all he's done, we should put Rob
in a position to feel guilty.  Shawn sent his post that he's working with Rob
to maintain the HBD as it is now, and with so many readers, it'll be known
quickly if this is not the case.  I think (and I may be way off base here)
that if the HBD starts to skunk, there will be an HBD II starting up. :::Now
donning asbestos undergarments:::

*****************

Now on a personal note:  I'll be heading to Denver in June for a wedding.
 Since I'm going sans wife and kid, I'll have about 2 days to fill.  Any
suggestions?  I heard the AHA offices are in Denver, are they worth visting?
 Any good Micros/Pubs to head to? Private e-mail is ok.

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Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:45:22 -0500
From: Marty Tippin <martyt at sky.net>
Subject: Grain Mills

Just wanted to add the Valley Mill to the list of available grain mills -
it's a new dual-roller, adjustable mill somewhat similar to the JSP
MaltMill.  I've got one and have used it on the last 4 batches or so with
great success - gives a very nice crush, high throughput and basically
trouble free.  The crush is quite similar to that of the MaltMill the local
homebrew store has which I used to use.  Overall, I really like the mill -
one of the nicest features is a much larger grain hopper than any other mill
I've seen - I can get around 4 or 5 lbs. of grain in it at once, so it's not
as much of a chore as other mills.  The locking adjustable rollers are quite
nice also - there are about 8 adjustments in all, giving plenty of range for
wheat, barley, etc. - and one of the best features is the price: $99 plus
shipping (from Canada, about $20).  

I recently motorized mine using a GE "Minagear" motor (used surplus, ~$25,
172 RPM  at  40 in-lb torque, available from Surplus Center - contact me if you
need the phone number since I don't have it handy).  The motor works great
and frees me from having to crank by hand.  The mill also comes with an
adaptor for your hand drill, but I got tired of wrangling that thing.

They've got a web page at:

http://www.web.apc.org/~valley/valleymill.html

Now, the astute reader will note that I wrote the web page for the Valley
Mill and thus probably am a bit biased.  Well, for the record:
1.) I'm not the manufacturer, just a satisfied customer.
and
2.) I only offered to help them get a page online after I had ordered, paid
for, and used my mill.  That's how impressed with it I was...

 -Marty
 martyt at sky.net
 http://www.sky.net/~martyt


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Date:          Tue, 7 May 1996 08:55:54 EST
From: "Dave Higdon" <DAVEH at qesrv1.bwi.wec.com>
Subject:       Re: road trip

Here are some places in DC:
The Brickskeller, it has the largest selection of bottled beers in the 
world (over 800).
Capital City Brewing Co 
Dock Street Brewing Co 
Bardo's 

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:01:04 -0400
From: gscott at io.org (Geoff Scott)
Subject: Re: Mills

In Digest 2030, Dave Harsh wrote:

>Right now, you essentially have four grain mills to choose from:
>Corona, PhillMill, Brewers Resource, and Schmidling.

   Where have you been for the last year, Dave?  The Valley Mill was
introduced in early 1995.  I've been putting this adjustable two roller
mill through its paces for the last couple of months and am quite pleased.
Today, I'm scanning some pictures for the much promised update to my page.
There should be some new mill pictures up by the end of the week.
   And by the way, no connection with Valley except we're both in Ontario,
but that only means I paid more sales tax.



regards,

Geoff Scott
gscott at io.org
Brewing page    http://www.io.org/~gscott



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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 08:48:20 -0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at ponyexpress.com>
Subject: corny keg repair / cleaning scortched wort / grain mills

Howdy fellow HBDers!

I recently siphoned a batch from the secondary into a new (to me) 
corny keg only to find a pin-hole leak near the top.  Apparently when 
this keg was sitting in the back of some restaraunt, some kids 
thought it amusing to shoot at it with their new Red Rider BB-gun.  
Most of the shot just dented it, but one created a small, almost 
undetectable crack in the dent.  

Anyway, does anyone know of a simple but safe way to fix this, short
of taking it to a welder?  I'm looking for something like a non-toxic
glue that will bond strong enough with the SS to hold under the
pressures of forced carbonation. I tried a hot-glue gun but that gave
way after 3 days under pressure:) Fortunately I had a spare corny and 
was able to salvage most of that beer.

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Mike Spinelli asks about removing scorched wort from his bottom (keg, 
that is).

Mike, try using an oven cleaner foam.  Should scrub right off after
letting it sit for a few minutes.  But be careful with the stuff (use
gloves) and don't use it on anything aluminum.  And clean your keg
well afterwards.

And on a similar note, does anyone know if such oven cleaners can be 
used to passivate SS?  Isn't the active ingredient nitric acid?

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

John Van Huffel asks about using a Kitchen Aid Grain Mill

John, I've never used one, but I did inquire about the idea a long
time ago before I bought my MaltMill.  If I remember the responses
correctly, it was that it creates too fine of a crush since it is
made for milling flour. If its free, then maybe go ahead and try it.
But if your buying one, you'd be better off spending that money on a
mill made for milling barley. 

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And on the subject of grain mills, David C. Harsh writes:

> Personally,the PhillMill is the least expensive, can be easily
> motorized 

Yes, but will motorizing it void any warranties?  I'm asking, I
don't know.  I do know that Jack Schmidling's MaltMill has a
lifetime warranty even if you motorize it, which, besides the
quality of the crush, is why I bought one.

> Any single pass mill is almost guaranteed to give the same sort of
> size distribution. 

Why do you say this?  Just curious, but it seems to me that roller
length, roller spacing, and whether the spacing increases from one
end to the other (or not) would at least effect the ease of use, if
not also create noticable differences in the size distribution of
the crushed grain.

Keith Royster
keith.royster at ponyexpress.com
Mooresville, NC  USA
http://www.wp.com/ at your.service/

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:46:01 -0400
From: edix at eve.assumption.edu (Ed Dix)
Subject: geting the labels on.

Viktor and All-

Greetings from a lurker. (it sounds so mysterious...)

I've found that (no endorsement, blah, blah, blah) 3M has a spray on
product called something like Artist's Adhesive (the word temorary or
repositionable may be in there, too).  It acts like a spray on Sticky Note
Pad glue.  It fits all the criteria, 1) it's easy (although there is some
over-spray when you have small labels) b)  it lets the labels come off
easily, and iii) it leaves no residue after water washing.

(now that I'm almost caught up on week-old mail, I think I'll try a glue
stick for the next batch.)

?Got enough info now?

Thanks for the continued entertainment and information-

        -Ed.
Ed Dix
Big Trouble Brewing
Holden MA

(I'm sure some of you can imagine the boil-over that precipitated that name.)



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Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 09:04:26 -0500
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Subject: Kitchen Aid Grain Mill


>Date: Mon, 6 May 96 19:01:08 -0400
>From: John Van Huffel <van at dnaco.net>
>Subject: Kitchen Aid Grain Mill
>
>Has anyone had any luck with the grain-mill attachment for the Kitchen 
>Aid Mixer?  I have access to one, if I forgive a small debt, and it would 
>sure beat hand-cranking a phils-mill!

>Van

Van, 

My mom bought me this attachment for christmas. The thing works great and I
get a very good grind. 

A couple of points:

1.      You can only grind about 7-8 pounds of grain at a time because the
motor         overheats around this point.

2.      Adjustment of the grinding plates is a little weird at first.

3.      The grain reservoir is kind of small but some brainstorming on your
behalf can         fix this problem.

Overall the Kitchen Aid mill is a pleasure to work with.

 -Scott


####################################################
#                ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT		   #
#           Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>	   #	
#           http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat           #
# (Skotrats Official Homebrew "Beer Slut" Webpage) #
#                        OR                        #
#    http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/   #
#  (Skotrats Brew-Rat-Chat Homebrew Chat System)   #
#         "Get off your dead ass and brew"         #
####################################################


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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:08:08 -0500
From: denisb at cam.org (Denis Barsalo)
Subject: Extraction Yield Sucks!

All grainers,

        I know I'm not suppose to worry about my extraction and just use
more grain if it's too low, but this is the third recipe in a row that I
end up with a much lower OG than expected. I buy my grain as I need it, so
it's a little tricky now because I don't know how much to buy for my next
recipe.
        I'm doing everything "by the book". Step infusion, mash out, sparge
at the right temperature, at the "proper" rate, etc. I take a sample before
I start boiling, figure out the math and WHAT! 22 pts!!?? I'm using 10
pounds of grain, how can that be.
        I've decided that it *must* be the crush. I'm using a grain mill at
the homebrew store, and I have a feeling that it's set too loose.
        What does properly crushed grain *really* look like anyway? In the
last batch I crushed, I remember seeing quite a few grains that seemed
intact. Should I be seeing a few pulverised grains ?

        BTW, I'm assuming you figure out the math for extraction rate
*before* you boil, right?

TIA

Denis



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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:38:18 -0400
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Re: HBD/AOB, Hoover Universal keg

Hi all, Three cheers for Rob: Huzah! Huzah! Huzah! and thanks for the
excellent job you have done.  My comment to the new home for the HBD
is, "AOB you've got a big set of shoes to fill, I hope that you will
continue the Home Brew Digest as an open and free forum. "

In the end the success or failure of this digest rest on our shoulders,
those that lurk and contribute, not those of the service provider for
it is the collective that through their comments and input create the
heart and soul of the HBD.  Now here's a toast to the next 2000 issues
of the HBD, CHEERS!

And now for a beer related issue, in HBD 2030 Jamie asked:

>I just inherited a 15 gal keg from my brother.  It's in good shape,
>but has been sitting for a couple of years.  I took a cursory look
>at how to open it up for cleaning and re-filling, but don't see an
>apparent and/or easy way.  I was wondering if someone who knows might
>be able to clue me in before I bugger up the valve with a pair of
>vice-grips...
>It's a 15.5 gal keg encased in a black plastic shell that's labeled
>Hoover Universal  304L, as well as Miller Brewing Co.

I have modified a Hoover Universal 304L "Miller Keg" for use in
my brewery.  If all you want to do is use this keg for a fermentor of
serving keg then you need to remove the ball valve from the keg:

     To remove the valve and dip tube assembly us a screwdriver or
     an awl to remove the circular spring clip from the inside
     of the tapper fitting.  Make sure that ALL PRESSURE IS RELEASED
     first !!! (or you could launch a valve steam into orbit or
     take an impressive beer bath, the second option is at least
     good for your hair)

     The valve stem is held in place by a spring clip.

   *****          --          --    === <- spring clip
   *****         |  |        |  |   ### <- valve and dip tube     
   *****         | ===      === |   --- <- keg wall and tapper fitting
   *****         |  |#      #|  |   *** <- rubber coating
   *******       |  |########|  |        *******
   *********    /   |########|   \     *********
   *** -------------|########|-------------- ***
   ***|                 ##                  |***
   ***|                 ##                  |***
   ***|                 ##                  |***
   ***|                 ##                  |***

The 304L on the keg signifies that the keg is manufactured from 304 
stainless steel but note that it is not as thick a gauge of 304L as that used
in more conventional kegs (the ones that are not rubber coated).  I decided
to remove the rubber coating and use my keg as a mashing kettle, this was 
not an easy process!  After making many top-to-bottom cuts in the the
rubber coating using a hack saw and a utility knife (be very careful to 
avoid cutting the metal or removing any important body parts, like fingers)
I was able to peel the rubber away from the keg, I used a scotchbrite pad
on a finish sander to completely clean the exterior of the keg and was
rewarded with a very nice looking pot.  One thing, these kegs are basically
a 15 gal. oval tank once the rubber is removed, they have no handles or base
ring welded to the tank, those functions are molded in the rubber so I 
had to design a burner stand with it's own supports to keep the tank
upright.  Although this type of keg conversion takes more effort the final
result is worth it.


Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
ccooper at a2607.cc.msr.hp.com         --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:39:55 -0500
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Subject: Water analysis

A. J. deLange asked whether we thought discussions of water analysis were
of general enough interest to be posted to hbd.

To me, they are.  Even though the particular analysis may not apply to
my water, I feel that every time I read one of A. J.'s discussion of
water chemistry I come a little closer to escaping my abysmal ignorance
of the subject.  There is a lot I don't know about water as it pertains
to brewing and I would like to know more.

As far as I am concerned, the bandwidth is better spent than on many things
found in hbd.

By the way, thanks Rob.  I really appreciate the hbd and all the work you have
done.

John Wilkinson

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:52:24 -0500
From: "James S. Bayer" <jbayer at lnb_dev.abn.com>
Subject: SanFran Brewpub Suggestions

I'll be in SanFran next week and I'm looking for suggestions for good
brewpub/micros to visit.  To save bandwidth, please e-mail your responses.
 Thanks.

/----------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Remember:  Brewing is not a matter of life and death.         |
|             It is much more important than that!               |
| ============================================================== |
|  Don't let your wife blame       |   Beer always tastes good   |
|  anything on your home brewing   |   Hangovers always go away  |
| ============================================================== |
|  Jim Bayer -> Chicago, my kind of town!  The windy city        |
|  brewmstr at mcs.net                                              |
| (copyright 1996)                                               |
\----------------------------------------------------------------/




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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:33:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kathy Booth <kbooth at isd.ingham.k12.mi.us>
Subject: "Forever Plaid"

	The musical show "Forever Plaid" toured thru our fair city and I 
went and enjoyed the great 40's and 50's "boy" tunes of male harmonization.
Great Fun.  See it if you like the better side of the 50's.

	However, I did experience a stuck fermentation and now I find out 
that a local theatre group is scheduling "Forever Plaid" on its theatre 
bill for the 96-97 season.  I suspect it is a greater threat to brewing 
then the "summer" thread that weaves on and on.  

	Question, did any of you experience stuck fermentations when the 
show toured your city? It may not have been related at all.

	Also, I really like it when contributors sign with first and last 
names. Scrolling up to see which Bob or Al it was is a PITA. It is even 
nice to have the email address at the end in case I want a private 
response, but thats not a biggie.   Cheers  Jim Booth, Lansing
kbooth at isd.ingham.k12.mi.us

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:00:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at maxx.mc.net>
Subject: Stuck Sparge


>From: blacksab at siu.edu

>I had my second stuck sparge last night, and it was the same recipe that
caused the first one, a Guinness-clone. Here are the particulars:

>I'm using an EasyMasher in a very well insulated budwizer keg with a Phil's
sparge arm, and a gas-fired burner for increasing and maintaining temperature.

The recipe was:

6-lbs DWC Pils Malt
2-lbs flaked barley
1-lb Roasted Barley
 .............

>1. Mash in 3-gal water to stabilize at 122*F
>The sparge took 3 or 4 hours, at one point stopping completely, and was
forced to stir the mash after thinnning it out. 

>This is the only recipe where this happens

>Any ideas, or is this typical of flaked barley? 

You took the words of of my fingers.  I have never had a stuck sparge AND
I have never used flaked barley.   For what it is worth, I have used flaked
corn with no problems.  This is not double blind science but the finger points
that way.

Aside from the flaked barley as a potential problem, my standard advice
is to let it rest a full 30 mins before starting to drain tun.  Even more 
importantly, if a problem does occur, resist the urge to stir it up, you
will only aggrivate it.  Try blowing gently on the end of the hose, just a
short poof.

>From: dharsh at alpha.che.uc.edu (David C. Harsh)
>Subject: Grain mill selection - addendum

>Any single pass mill is almost guaranteed to give the same sort of
size distribution.

In my not so humble opinion, I do not believe this is an accurate 
statement.  The length of the rollers can be a significant factor in
determining the grist distribution.

If the rollers are sufficiently long, they can be skewed to provide
non-linear spacing from one end to the other without damaging
the bearings.  I won't repeat here why this is useful because it
is documented with details and drawings on our web page.

However, I will point out that MM rollers are 3" longer than the
Valley Mill and two or three TIMES longer then the rest of the ones
you mentioned and does NOT use plastic bearings. 


                           ***********************
Visit our Web page for product flyers and applications information.
                    http://dezines.com/ at your.service/jsp/


js





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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 13:16:00 -0500
From: "Decker, Robin E." <robind at rmtgvl.rmtinc.com>
Subject: Jack's Offer


Well folks,
It appears to me that we have a reasonable compromise to the ownership of 
the HBD on the table.  I believe that in issue #2029, Jack Schmidling 
offered to provide the resources necessary to run the HBD, if Al Korzonas 
would provide the labor....  I'm assuming that Jack would follow through 
with his offer even if Rob thinks there is another individual more suited 
for janitorial work <g>.
FWIW, I think this idea is great because it gives us a kind of "separation 
of church & state".  If an organization or individual is willing to provide 
the physical resources, so that the HBD can be maintained by an org. or 
individual not otherwise affiliated with or employed by said benefactor, the 
arrangement should serve to preserve the ideals and integrity of the forum. 
 If this type of arrangement can be reached, I believe it should remain the 
responsibility of the outgoing janitor to name and train the incoming 
janitor, as well as find the HBD's new home, if the existing benefactor 
chooses to withdraw support.  Hopefully, any incoming benefactors/janitors 
could be persuaded to make a minimum time commitment to the effort (say 1-3 
yrs) to ensure the forum's stability.
I personally have survived changes in editors of my favorite magazines, but 
have also cancelled subscriptions when format changes came through more than 
once per year.  Change is inevitable...I just prefer the chance to get used 
to something before making another switch.
OTOH, I would hate to see the HBD fall apart to due to lack of a 
semi-permanent home.  I have learned alot in the past few months...enough so 
that I feel comfortable waiting on all the brewers (not just beginners, like 
me) at my husband's homebrew shop when he needs a day off.  So I guess I 
should also thank the collective for making me look good.  All the knowledge 
I've gleaned from here tends to counteract  the "cash register from hell"'s, 
tendency to make me look dumb & blonde!

regards,
Goldings

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 12:50:22 -0500
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Subject: Grain mill selection

Rich and Mark (Brew Partners in Kraeusen) asked about grain mills and
David C. Harsh replied:
>Right now, you essentially have four grain mills to choose from:
> Corona, PhillMill, Brewers Resource, and Schmidling.

There is another, the Valley Mill.  I have one and have been quite happy
with it.  It has a large grain hopper (about 8 pounds), is adjustable,
and is easily motorized.  I have only put <100 pounds of grain through
it but so far, so good.

John Wilkinson

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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 14:55:39 EDT
From: pbrian at Tudor.Com (Paul Brian)
Subject: honey malt

Hello Brewers,

A couple of recipes that have come over HBD
lately have included Honey Malt.  This is the
first time I've heard of this variety.  Can 
someone explain the characteristics of this
malt and what benefits it provides to the fine ales 
(and lagers) that we brew?

Thanks again,   Paul

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Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 15:10:10 -0400
From: Ron Raike <ron at mail.creol.ucf.edu>
Subject:    Sunshine Challenge Results

The results of the 7th annual Sunshine Challenge in Orlando FL 
are  located at The Central Florida Home Brewers Club Page.  

http://lorien.creol.ucf.edu/~cfhb/

Its in a rough form but available - try viewing the source with your 
browser.   I'm editing it when i get a chance throughout the day.   
I think "Gerge Fix" is a typo - I'll verify....

There were 363 entries total, many kegs of great beer from 
all over the country,  2 great parties, a pub crawl, many good 
cigars, Dave Miller did a seminar and judged, lots of good 
homebrew, lots of people having a great time, a great 
long weekend.

I'm not an active person on the HBD,  please respond 
personally to:   ron at mail.creol.ucf.edu.

Ron Raike - CREOL/UCF
Facilities - Computers - Head Brewer





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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 15:22:29 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: cheesey/aluminum/fermenting in Cornys/priming/Kitchen Aid grain mill

Andrew writes:
>How's this for a theory? Oxidised beta acids are much more soluble than alphas 
>and supposedly also impart bitterness to beer. When using a hop for finish 
>hopping which is oxidised (eg. old Goldings), the oxidised betas also provide
>a greater than expected bittering level (having greater solubility). The 
>bitterness provided is this harsh, burnt quality I have described. 
>Where's cheesey come into it?

I believe that it's not the solubility that is changed with oxidation, but
rather the bitterness.  I've read that un-oxidized beta acids are not very
bitter but oxidized ones are.  I believe that DeKlerck writes that we should
not be expecing less bitterness when we use older hops, but I'm not sure if
he specifically said that it's because of the beta acids increasing bitterness
balances the decreasing bitterness in the alpha acids.  (This does not mean
I condone using stale, old hops for brewing most styles!)

Note there is a counter to this: the aged hops used for Lambic/Lambiek
brewing.  There, three-year-old hops are used in relatively large quantities.
It is said that the reason for this is to get the antibacterial benefits
from the hops while not getting much bitterness out of them.  Given the
high hop rates used, Lambieks/Lambics are surprisingly low in bitterness.

It has been a long, long time since I've made beer with old, oxidized hops
(pLambic/pLambiek notwithstanding and these were baked) so I can't tell you
if the burnt quality you note has anything to do with oxidation or age, but
if switching suppliers has solved the problem, then I believe you have
solved the problem!

Regarding the cheesey aroma, every hop smells different as it ages, just as
every hop smells different fresh.  I personally feel that old, oxidized
Fuggles smell cheesey, whereas old, oxidized Cascades smell piney.  Other
oxidized hops smell grassy, minty or sweaty.  Since I buy a lot of whole hops
and have been intentionally aging them for brewing pLambiek/pLambic, I have
quite a bit of familiarity with the smell of old hops.

***
Erik is worried about his new aluminum pot dissolving into the wort.

Fears about alzheimer's aside, there was an article on aluminum and brewing
in Brewing Techniques a few issues ago.  The bottom line is that there was
no higher level of aluminum in beer made in an aluminum kettle as there was
in a parallel batch made in a stainless steel kettle.  Two points of caution:

1. don't scrub it till the aluminum shines -- I've heard this will give
you an off flavour, and

2. don't use strong acids or bases for cleaning.

***
Erik also is worried about his Pilsner made without a starter.

Yes, without a starter, a two or even three day lag time is not uncommon.
What you've read about starting warm and then cooling versus starting
cool are two different ways to make a lager.  Starting warm then cooling
is faster but has two disadvantages: 1. more esters (which are unwelcome
in a lager) and 2. risk of shocking the yeast if you cool too quickly.
The textbooks say to cool no faster than 2C per day, but many yeasts can
easily handle 5C per day.  This is true even for the starter if you are
using the "starting cool" method -- you should very slowly cool your
starter down to the wort temperature if it is not already at wort temp.

You really should use a starter for lagers and a big starter (at least
2L and 4L would not be too big) is recommended.

***
There have been a number of people who have mentioned fermenting in kegs
lately.  I belive that one person said they have removed the gas-in fitting
and attached an airlock.  The other person connected a gas-in connector to
the keg which then goes to a tube which is submerged in a liquid in a
jar.  I would like to caution that these connector openings (especially
if you are going through the whole connector assembly) are very small
and are very likely to clog if there is blowoff.  While these kegs are
rated to 130psi, I think it's a good idea to not try and see if yeast
can generate 130psi.  I know that a lot of people will write and say that
they have fermented in Corny kegs for years with no problems, but I
still contend (after two carboy explosions due to clogged blowoff tubes:
one 5/16" ID the other 3/8" ID) that it is better to be safe than sorry and
any chance of blowing off through a Corny fitting can be *dangerous*.

***
Ken writes:
>Priming with malt extract/ wort/ gyle is of course appealing, but Dave
>Miller, for one, notes that it has disadvantages.  As I recall, his main
>concern is the fact that in a maltose(etc.)-based bottle fermentation, the
>CO2 is trapped and can't scrub out esters which always form in rather high
>concentration (the great majority of which get carried off, in an open
>fermentation).  This doesn't happen with glucose priming.  Miller says he
>has done back-to-back experiments priming with wort and priming with
>glucose, and says that the wort-primed beers turned out (and I quote him
>approximately):  "in all cases too estery for the intended style".  

I am very skeptical -- recall that Miller was the one who said that
after bottling all the CO2 is quickly produced but requires several weeks
to dissolve in the beer.  Both scientifically and experimentally we (the
HBD collective) have proven that this is false.

Firstly, many American megabrewed Lagers are "naturally carbonated" meaning
that the fermenters are sealed with a certain amount of fermentables left
and (with the help of special pressure valves) are carbonated via the
remaining extract.  Since glucose is always the first to be fermented there
are nothing but larger sugars left at the end of fermentation and we can
safely say there is no fruitiness in American Megabrewed Lagers.

Secondly, kraeusening has been used by German brewmasters to carbonate
beer for centuries and nobody is criticizing their beers for being
too estery for style, are they?  The German beers that are brewed following
Reinheitsgebot are not even allowed by law to use refined sugar to prime!

Ken continues:
>I've now tried, several times, priming with only partly (e.g. 33%) malt
>extract and the rest glucose.  In a couple of experiments like Miller's, the
>partially wort-primed beers are -- even at this low concentration of malt
>used for priming -- quite clearly more estery than the glucose-only ones.  I
>wonder if anyone else has done this kind of testing.  I think I'll stick
>with using a small fraction of wort in my priming solution, because I like
>the idea of its soaking up oxygen in the bottle..  but only a fairly small
>fraction.

I suspect it was not esters that you were sensing but something else.
Furthermore, there is nothing inherently different between the yeast's
oxygen uptake with various primings.  They consume the oxygen because they
desire it and the type of sugar used for priming doesn't affect that.

***
John writes:
>Has anyone had any luck with the grain-mill attachment for the Kitchen 
>Aid Mixer?

It will make great bread, but will crush the grain too fine for brewing.



I know where my towel is...
Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:24:20 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Please unsubscribe Jake from your mailing list.


Jake and I brew together regularly.  In fact, it was Jake that first turned
me on to subscribing to HBD, way back in, oh, 1992 or something.  One day,
he mentioned to me that he had left HBD because it was mostly filled with
junk.

Well, the quality had been steadily improving for the last few months.  It
seemed to reach a plateau, and almost every day I was forwarding tidbits 
to Jake.  So, finally, he decided to resubscribe.

Within seconds, the quality here plummetted.  First, we have Al and Pat 
spanking each other about the National Homebrew Day.  Then, we have the
discussion of the HBD being handed off to AoB, and everyone has to air 
their opinion about it.  Twice.  Then, joy of joys, the "Does shitty beer
actually suck, or do we?" thread rears it's ugly head.

Randy Huyck posts a 22 line sig.  Twice in a row.  Mike Bell posts a long, 
rambling flame about how obnoxious flaming is.  Thanks, Mike.  I'd flame you
for it, but I thought speaking calmly about it, in public, would be a more
egregious waste of bandwidth.  Barry Finkling Curtis really takes the cake,
however, by taking a bunch of PRIVATE e-mails, presumably not posted here 
in the name of saving bandwidth, and perhaps in the name of decency and 
discretion, and proceeds to post them, for all our benefit, along with his
commentary about their commentary, all of which is apparently commentary 
about commentary, and it's value.  And something about cussin', too.  Sheeit.

Finally, of course, are the clueless masses asking publicly to be unsubscribed.
What, am *I* supposed to do it?  Seriously - I assume that this is due to 
the fact that Rob is handing the digest off soon.  Still, I think the message
is pretty clear - Jake must leave.  I'll forward stuff about first-wort 
hopping and hot-side aeration and iodophor and all the other wonderful things
we USUALLY talk about.  

Anyway, hats off and bottoms up to Rob Gardner for his fantastic work!  

To anyone considering a legitimate response to this, remember - If you take 
things too seriously, you wind up sounding even stupider than I do.  If
there is sufficient interest in private e-mail, I'll post a summary.

 -Russell Mast
Copyright 1996, Tito Jackson

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Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 17:37:21 -0400
From: Dennis Cabell <cabell at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Lagering in corny

Gregory, Guy J. <GGRE461 at eroerm1.ecy.wa.gov> wrote
>
> A tip:
>
> I'm lagering in a old corny keg.  I cut off the bottom 1/2" of the out tube,
> and took out the valve from the in-tube.  Brew magazine has a cockamamie
> contraption for attaching an airlock involving a whole bunch of stuff.  I
> used, instead, a 2 inch length of 1/2" ID clear tube, into which I inserted
> a 3" length of 3/8 " ID, 1/2" OD tube, into which I inserted my airlock.
>  It's acceptably rigid, and the airlock is bubbling away happily.  My
> refrigerator does not have a dangerous buildup of CO2 in it nor does it
> smell, as the Brew magazine article suggested, and I am not light the 40
> bucks or so for the stuff they advised.  Anybody have any better ideas?


Try this:  Simply attach a length of hose to a corny "in" connector and run
the hose into a beer bottle half full of water.  Simple easy air lock.

A twist that I may try next time I lager is this:  Leave the dip tube full
length, when it comes time to keg, attach the CO2 and dispenser and blow
out the gunk on the bottom before you shake the key to carbonate,  Then
simply carbonate in the same keg you used for lagering.  Note that I have
not tried this yet, it is a thought I had.  Can anyone see any problems?

Dennis Cabell
cabell at ix.netcom.com

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Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 14:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Johnson <kenjo at santafe.wv.tek.com>
Subject: screens for keg lauter tun

Does anyone know what the diameter should be for a screen set into a
standard keg for a lauter tun?  I have to make the screen before I get a
chance to cut the top off of the keg.  Hole size and spacing info would
also be very helpful.

kj

PS. I need to know by 3:30 pm PST May 9.




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