---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Late starting Wyeast (VANDENB)
  Re: Beer Yeast Bread (Jeff Renner)
  Skunking references (Spencer W Thomas)
  Al/Humor/Well Alright (Scott)
  Killing the Al (Scott)
  California Common Recipe ("J. Glenn Ferrell")
  RE: Decoction mashing (George De Piro)
  Fullers ESB recipe (was Flaked Maize and Munich Malt) (Charles Rich)
  re:Inverted Decoction Mash (Paul Niebergall)
  Mercaptans, flakes of rice ("David R. Burley")
  re: modified decoction/purging (BAYEROSPACE)
  yeasts (Rae Christopher J)
  Magnesium musings (Jim Busch)
  Fermenting in 10gal Corny? (George Schamel)
  MARQUIS DE SUDS HOMEBREW COMPETITION (Chris McAtee)
  Potatoes in the beer?? (Mark Preston)
  The AHA Jihad (Steve Moore)
  RIMS heater fittings/racking cane filter (Ron Gasik)
  Need an answer (Kris Southerland)
  Chrome plated brewing spoons ("John M Perkovich")
  brew dogs (Rachel Imsland)
  Light Strike/Infection? (A. J. deLange)
  enough-already boy ("Raymond Estrella")
  building a RIMS heating chamber ("Keith Royster")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date:         Fri, 21 Feb 97 09:18:05 EST
From: VANDENB at UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
Subject:      Late starting Wyeast

Two weeks ago I prepared a package of Wyeast yeast by flattening the package an
d  mixing the contents. This was two days before I intended to brew up a batch
of ale. Nothing happened ( at least visibly) inside the yeast package for three
 days; I finally pitched dry yeast in my wort. Five days after crushing the pac
kage things started to happen. The fully expanded foil pack has been residing i
n my fridge for the last week and a half. Question:IfI plan to brew this weeke
nd, can this yeast still be used?
      Privates ok- vandenb at uconnvm.uconn.edu

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:53:45 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Beer Yeast Bread

In Homebrew Digest #2354, spiralc at ix.netcom.com (Chris Carolan) says:

>Speculation mode ON.
>Jeff, I wonder if bread rising is not fermentaion per se? After all, it
>starts so quickly and there is no evident alcohol. Noonan in NBLB
>writes that during the lag phase "prodigious amounts of CO2 are
>produced in the lag phase without significant wort attenuation" He
>describes this as having to do with pyruvic acid. Maybe this process is
>what occurs when dough rises? I know that day-old yeast dough has an
>obvious alcohol taste, but same day dough rises immediately without the
>alcohol. I find it hard to believe that wort has a lag time of hours
>and hours while dough ferment kicks in right away.
>Speculation mode OFF.

It is fermentation, and baking texts refer to it as such without
equivocation.  Baking yeast has been selected for, among other
characteristics, quick starts.  As a matter of fact, it will begin activity
immediately upon rehydration if you put a pinch of sugar in the rehydration
water.

While the alcohol may not be evident, it is present in the dough.  When I
punch down my ten pound batches of dough, the alcoholic smell is very
evident.  It is largely driven off during the bake.  Large bakery emissions
are regulated by the Clean Air Act because the ethanol is a contributor to
smog.  In the baking industry press right now, there is a great deal of
angst over the inclusion of smaller bakeries in the new regs.  Fortunately,
my bakery is still far too small to come under this, so I haven't paid much
attention.

>FYI - Carol Field in "The Italian Baker" writes that some Italian
>bakers use scant amounts of malt extract in their breads. She states
>the malt provides "yeast food, improved loaf moisture, and a wonderful
>golden color to the crust."

This is normally non-diastatic malt, and acts much like other sugars except
for the flavor.  In a short ferment, any additional sugar will add to the
crust color by caramelization.  In long ferments, which produce more
flavorful bread, the residual sugars are very low, and crust colors up
differently and more slowly.  Although dry malt extract is hydroscopic, I'm
not sure how malt would add to loaf moisture.

Have fun baking and brewing.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu



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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:29:17 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Skunking references

An easily readable, and not too hard to find, overview:

Photochemistry and Beer, by Vogler & Kunkely, Journal of Chemical
Education, 59:1, pp. 25-27 (Jan 1982).

They discuss the current (as of 1982) understanding of the development
of "Light Struck Flavor" (LSF).  Conclusions: 

* It appears to be developed from the iso-alpha acids.  "Only the
  presence of the iso-alpha-acids but not of other hops components is
  apparently responsible for the development of LSF."

* LSF is developed by light wavelengths shorter than about 500nm
  (blue-green).

* The exact mechanism is not understood.  Iso-alpha acids do not
  absorb blue-green light.  One theory: a dye (i.e., colored
  substance) in the beer absorbs light photons and becomes excited.
  It then transfers the excited state to the iso-alpha-acid, which
  reacts (somehow) to produce LSF.

* The presence of oxygen appears to prevent LSF.  (Not useful,
  though.)

* Sulfur containing compounds (e.g., cystine) are required for the
  development of LSF.  These are always present in beer.

* If the unsaturated iso-hexenoyl side chain is hydrogenated, then LSF
  does not develop (this is why Miller doesn't skunk).


They have a long list of references, most of which I can't easily check,
because the U of M library doesn't carry the brewing journals.  I've
annotated each reference with the subject of its first appearance in
the article.

1.  2 & 3 provide reviews of the subject.
2.  Luers, Brauwelt, 95, 582 (1955)
3.  Spaeth, Niefind, and martina, Monatsschr. Brauerei, 28, 73 (1975)
4.  Lintner, Lehrbuch der Bierbrauerei, Verlag Vieweg und Sohn,
    Braunschweig, 1875  (first mention of LSF)
5.  Schultze, Algem. Zeitschr. Bierbraurei und Malzfabrikation, 593 (1888)
    (First quantitative wavelength-dependent photochemistry
    observations)
6.  Brand, Zeitschr. ges. Brauwesen, 31, 333 (1908)
7.  Hatchard and Parker, Proc. Roy. Soc., A235, 518 (1956) (H&P
    actinometer?)
8.  Krause and Schilfarth, Tageztg. Brauerei, 61, 680 (1964); Brauwelt,
    104, 1574 (1964) (organoleptic (tasting) analysis of LSF)
9.  Verzele, Jansen and Ferdinandus, J. Inst. Brewing, 76, 25 (1970) (more
    organoleptic analysis)
10. Kuroiwa and Hashimoto, Proc. Amer. Soc. Brewing Chemists, 28 (1961)
    (assoc with alpha-acids) 
11. Nakayama and Fly, Proc Amer. Soc. Brewing Chemists, 198 (1968)
    (assoc with alpha-acids) 
12. For a review on the chemistry of hops constituents see Stevens,
    Chem. Rev., 67, 19 (1967)
13. Hougen, US Patent 3,079,262; Chem. Abstr., 58, 10696a
    (1963). For further information see 9 and 12. (iso-alpha-acid
    hydrogenation for LS resistance)
14. An editorial, Brauwelt, 106, 768 (1966) (why is beer sold in clear
    bottles?)
15. Zenz, Proc. Europ. Brew. Conv., 14th Congr., Salzburg, 1973,
    Elsevier Amsterdam, 1974, p. 419. See also Brauwissenschaft, 17,
    261 (1974); 28, 184 (1975).  (photolysis of iso-alpha-acid)
16. Gray, Stone, and Rothchild, cited in Ref. Wochenschrift Brauerei,
    209 (1941) (Evidence that sulfur-containing compounds are
    required.)
17. Yamanishi and Obata, Bull. Chem. Soc. Japan, 22 247 (1949) and 23,
    125 (1950). (more on sulfur-containing compounds)
18. Obata and Ishikawa, Nature, 105, 75 (1965) (ditto)
19. Klose, H. G., Dissertation, Techn. Hochschule Munich,
    1966. (Absorbance of trans-iso-humulone.)
20. Jakobsen and Hoegberg, cited in ref 2. (Dyes from malt may be
    light-absorbing agents.)
21. Legg, J. Chem. Educ., 50, 848 (1973) (Possible transfer of
    excitation energy from dyes to iso-alpha-acids.)
22. Bland, J. Chem. Educ., 53, 274 (1976) (Possible production of
    singlet O2 by dye sensitization.)
23. De Keukeleire, Siaens, and Verzele, Bull. Soc. Chim. Belg., 85,
    293 (1976) (Reaction of singlet O2 with bitter hop compounds.)
24. Clarke, and Hildebrand, J. Inst. Brewing, 71, 26 (1965)
    (Photoisomerization of humulone.)
25. De Keukeleire and Blondeel, Tetrahedron Letters, 1343 (1979) (more
    on photoisomerization of alpha-acids.)
26. Kuehn, W., Dissertation, Technische Hochschule Munich, 1963
    (photoreaction of lupulone and colupulone)
27. Fernandez, Chem. Comm., 1212 (1967) (ditto)


=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:38:07 -0600
From: Scott <roundboy at wwa.com>
Subject: Al/Humor/Well Alright

I do appreciate the bit of Humor though!!!

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:45:31 -0600
From: Scott <roundboy at wwa.com>
Subject: Killing the Al

from hbd 2354:
 ...  >Should my plane crash, might I suggest that Bill Giffin and
>Scott Dornseif should top the suspect list...
>
>
>Al.
>
>Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
>korz at xnet.com

I didn't do it.  I wasn't there. No one saw me.  You can't prove it!

Scott Dornseif

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:44:16 -0500
From: "J. Glenn Ferrell" <gferrell at eastky.com>
Subject: California Common Recipe

Anyone out there have a recipe for something close to 
Anchor Steam Beer?  Papazian has a recipe for "The Sun Has 
Left Us On Time" Steam Beer (page 184, _New Complete Joy
of Home Brewing_).  This is an extract recipe.  I want an 
all grain recipe.  Is there a formula for converting extract
recipes to all grain?  Private e-mail fine.  

Glenn Ferrell


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:57:10 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE: Decoction mashing

     Hi all,
     
     Paul writes in with an idea for decoction mashing in such a way as to 
     increase the fermentability of his wort.  He suggests splitting the 
     mash into equal portions, resting the first mash at 158F, then boiling 
     and adding the rest of the grain and some water to bring the temp to 
     140F, then decocting again, etc.
     
     There is really no need to go through the bother of splitting the 
     mash.  Decoction mashing, in its centuries-old form, can be used to 
     achieve the effect you want.  In fact, by boiling half the mash, you 
     may be denaturing too many of the enzymes to achieve efficient 
     conversion later.
     
     Simply mash-in the entire grain bill, pull a third of the thickest 
     part of the mash, rest it at 158F, boil it, add it back to bring the 
     temp to 145F or so, etc.
     
     Because you only pulled the thickest part of the mash you preserved 
     most of the enzymes, thus ensuring efficient conversion in the later 
     rests.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:58:43 -0800
From: Charles Rich <CharlesR at SAROS.COM>
Subject: Fullers ESB recipe (was Flaked Maize and Munich Malt)

I have to apologize for misremebering my sources in my
original statement re: Munich Malt + Flaked Corn, the two
do not figure together in the Fuller's recipes I was
thinking of.  Sorry.  They were used in some similar
recipes which suggested them to my personal FESB recipe. 
The Munich adds malt flavor without mashing at higher
temps.  The corn helps to slightly sweeten and lift the
finish.

The Fuller's ESB in the USA is not as good at all, as the
cask conditioned FESB in London.  It doesn't travel, or we
don't get the real cask conditioned goods, or it's brewed
differently for export.  I'm pursuing the *identical* beer
(although better will do) as you get in London.  I remember
it as crisp, mildly fruity and yeasty with a soft limpid
finish that alway propelled me into another gulp.  A beer
you drink by the mouthful.

In response to requests for my Fuller's ESB clone recipe,
what follows are datapoints I've used in formulating the
recipe and references to other FESB recipes on the net.

Phillip Seitz in his 1992 report of English brewery tours offers:
<... snip ...>
> Fullers uses Challenger, Northdown, and Target hops in the
> kettle, and its Chiswick Bitter (1.034, 28 IBU) and ESB
> (1.054, 35 IBU) are dry-hopped with Goldings (their London
> Pride--1.040, 30 IBU--is not).  Marris Otter malts are used
> throughout, with mash strike temperature at 69 degrees C
> (156 F?). Their strongest beer, Golden Pride (a very malty
> brew, and 9.2% ABV) is made from the first run-off only,
> while their other beers are sparged at 76 C (169 F?).
[http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1002.html#1002-10]

and

Jim Busch returns from the Fullers brewery and offers:
<... snip ...>
> There is no Fuggles in ESB or any of the Fullers beers. 
> They use English Target, Challenger and Northdown.  EKG is
> in the finish & cask hopping of both Chiswick Bitter (very
> good bitter) and ESB.  BTW the kettle hops are Lupofresh(
> challenger, 91) pellets from Kent and Worscester.  They
> "Burtonize" the brewing water using mineral salts. A single
> temp infusion is employed. The ESB is 1.052 OG (apparently
> this was reduced for the US market, according to a brewer I
> was drinking with in the Pub next door).  I was told they
> used to use sugar but this is no longer required with the 
> new mash tuns.  I missed out on the Maize part so I do not
> know, but I assume George has this correct.  Try 5- 10 % in
> the mash. Skip the sugar, use caramel malts to get the
> color and sweetness. 
[http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1163.html#1163-22]

>From these, some paperbased recipes and practical fiddling
my recipe is settling into the following:

    for 10 US Gals:

    14.00 lb. British two-row pale ale
     1.50 lb. British Crystal (50-60L)
     1.50 lb. Cara-Pils Dextrine
     1.25 lb. Belgian Munich
     1.00 lb. Flaked corn (maize)

     1.50 oz. Challenger  7.3% 60 min
      .50 oz. Challenger  7.3% 40 min
      .50 oz. Willamette  4.9% 40 min
     1.00 oz. Willamette  4.9% 20 min
     1.00 oz. EK Goldings 5.1% 20 min
     1.00 oz. EK Goldings in hopback

    Single infusion mash at 154F
    Predicted OG  1054
    Predicted IBU 35
    Pitch with Wyeast 1968 - no other.

I'm winging it on my hopping, it's a schedule I'm happy with
in general for pale ales, but I'd very much appreciate
knowing the hopping schedule Fullers actually uses.

For a more properly "Fullers" ESB you might try:
    15.5# British 2-row 
     2.0# British Crystal (50-60L)
     1.5# Flaked corn (maize)
But the current recipe is more delicious IMHO. In my last batch I
added 0.75 lb. of Belgian Biscuit and will continue to do so ever
after.


Some other Fullers ESB recipes are:

jay marshall HBD #1162
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1162.html#1162-6

Jim Busch HBD #1656, 2/13/95 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/cm3/recs/01_101.html
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1656.html#1656-15

Christopher R. Vyhnal offers an extract+infusion recipe
http://alpha.rollanet.org/cm3/recs/01_115.html

Larry Bristol in HBD #1509, 8/24/94 and at:
http://alpha.rollanet.org/cm3/recs/01_90.html

Rob Haiber in HBD #1788	describes Fullers London Pride
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1788.html#1788-9

Larry Bristol's Follow up to Fuller's ESB Cloning
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1512.html#1512-14

I hope this is helpful.  This topic surfaces in HBD about
every year and will probably never be nailed down.

Cheers,
Charles Rich


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:38:25 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  re:Inverted Decoction Mash

HBDer's,
I recently posted a post about decoction mashing and using
an inverted temperature rest schedule (first rest at 158
degrees F and second rest at 140 F).  I appreciate the
responses I have received so far, they have all been
inormative.  A number of people have mentioned that this
method would denature the Beta enzymes at the high initial
rest temperature.  This leads me to my next question.  What
exactly does "denature" mean?  I have used the term myself
many times and have enough understanding to know that it
means the enzymes don't work any more.  But, does
denature mean destroy, or is it a reversable process?  I
wouldn't argue that boiling temperatures don't destroy
enzymes.  However, what degree of destruction (irreversable)
or denaturing occurs to Beta amalyse at lower temperatures
(relative to boiling) when the initial rest temperature is held at
158 F?.  Do the little Betas recover if the temperature is
subsequently lowered to their preferred range?  Any thoughts
out there would help.

Thanks

Paul Nieberagall


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Date: 21 Feb 97 13:36:49 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Mercaptans, flakes of rice

Brewsters:

Eric Fouch's e-mail address is even more complicated than my wife's, so rather
than risk bounced e-mail,  I opted to comment here about mercaptans rather than
doing it privately.  As Eric says, mercaptans are alcohol-like except the sulfur
atom replaces the oxygen in the molecule.  What is important to us as brewers is
that humans are many orders of magnitude more sensitive to mercaptans than to
the equivalent alcohol and our natural reaction is one of fear and disgust upon
smelling them. (Perhaps a primal protection mechamism just like our response to
cadaverine - an amine from - you guessed it.).  

One possible explanation of Alk's one-time, uncontrolled (I'm not disparaging
Al's observation just putting it into perspective, nor tryng to insult Al as
some have implied, privately) observation is that upon exposure to 50F for some
time, at beer pH, the mercaptans may hydrolyse to the equivalent alcohol. . We
are much less sensitive to the equivalent alcohol. This is a potential
de-skunking mechanism.  I am not saying this is a known fact, just a
possibility.  If true, however, it is important to us and to the brewing
industry.

I am bothered not by the fact that light skunks beer, which I believe, rather
that I don't know the complete mechanism from which prenyl (I presume named
trivially like the iso-prene intermediate for rubber production) mercaptan is
formed from iso-humulone. I only know it cannot be by direct absorption.  It may
be well known in professional literature, but this photochemist/brewer has not
seen enough facts to make him comfortable to fit all these observations about
skunking together into a consistent pattern.
- -----------------------------------------------------------
AlK says:
> Technically "flaked" grains are ones which are pressed through *hot* rollers
> which pre-cooks them (I believe they are steamed before running through the
> rollers too, but I don't have my books here).  I know that flaked corn
> (maize), flaked wheat, and flaked barley are available (maybe other grains
> too) and they are great for brewing because the hot rollers gelatinise the
> starch.

> Dave -- do you heat your rollers?

Nope, just using the mill manufacturer's definition of "flaked" grains.  That's
why I put it into quotes. I should have explained it, but thought it was off the
point, I guess. Thanks for pointing out the potential confusion. The mill
manufacturer of this three roll mill is Italian.  If I use two rolls the
manufacturer defines this as "flaked", and three rolls as "flour".  Even the
Italian word is "flaked", but we might say "chipped"  into smaller pieces in our
vernacular. I use dry grains. Rice isn't bad, but barley is TOUGH.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date:     Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:50 -0600
From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Subject:  re: modified decoction/purging

collective homebrew conscience:

paul niebergall wrote:

>O.K., so I was <snip>wondering if I could get
>better control over my conversion profile (simple versus
>complex sugars) by using the following procedure in my next
>batch:

>1.  Start with 10 pounds of crushed malt and divide into two
>equal 5-pound portions.

>2.  Take one 5-pound portion and infuse with 5 to 6 quarts of
>175 degree F water.  Hopefully hit a rest temperature of 158
>degree F.  Let the mash rest a 158 degrees F for about 0.5
>hour or so.

maximizing alpha activity.  30 minutes may be a tad short, i.e. your alpha
could do more work here if you would let it.  if you stir the entire time
while applying heat, or induce motion somehow, you can speed up the enzyme
activity (and also its demise, perhaps? al? dave?).  a pH around 5.7 would
also favor alpha over beta here.


>3.<snip> put all of the mash in a 5-gallon pot and slowly bing it to a boil 
>on top of the stove. Let it boil for 30 minutes or so.

this will help to physically degrade the starch that the alpha did not get
to enzymatically.  okay.  plus you get more melanoidins.  


>4.  After boiling the mash for 30 minutes, remove from heat
>and add another 5 to 6 quarts of water along with the
>remaining 5 pounds of crushed malted barely.<snip>  Let the
>mash rest at 140 F for 30 minutes.


at first glance, you're relying on the beta enzymes from 5 pounds of malt to
convert 10 pounds worth of starch.  i would recommend that if you have high 
diastatic malt, that it be entirely in this second portion.  if you put all the
pils malt in the first decoction and boiled it all, and the second 5 pounds is 
all munich and specialty malts, you could be in trouble regarding how much
enzyme content you have, and how much work you've created for it. 

but really, the large starch in the second 5 pounds has not previously 
been broken down at all, so beta will really be working mostly on the 
decocted portion, which was broken down by alpha and by boiling.  the starch
in the second portion of malt is not as beta-accessible.  it's just like a 
normal step-infusion mash.


>decoct the heaviest one-third portion, boil the decoct, and
>add it back to the main mash to raise the temperature again
>to 158 F.  After a second 30 minute (maybe 10 to 15
>minutes?) rest at 158 F, mashout and sparge as usual.


with the reduced number of enzymes, 10 or 15 minutes may be a bit short.
also, as with any decoction, any enzymes you pull in and take to the stovetop
will be lost forever.  leave as much liquid as you can, and dilute the 
decoction with properly treated (pH) water to avoid scorching.

>If it's not obvious, what I am trying to do is to break the
>starch chains at the first 158 F (Alpha-Zone) rest so that the
>cooler rest at 140 F will be more efficient (more ends for Beta
>to nibble at).  I call it Inverted Modified Step Decoction
>Mashing (IMSDM).  Does this idea sound worthwhile?  Any
>comments out there? 


my only comment is that a normal single decoction mash achieves what you've
stated here, assuming a 158F rest is performed on the decoction before 
raising it to boiling.  and the enzyme viability is probably better, leading
to shorter conversion times.  your method will work, but the enzyme count
may be lower and the conversion less efficient/slower.



al k wrote and described lower hop utilization using first wort hopping.  just
as another data point, i have experienced the same.


al also wrote regarding my secondary purging:

>I don't think you need to purge the entire carboy... if you put two gallons
>into a 5-gallon carboy, it will stay separate for a few minutes at least
>(yes, CO2 is heavier than air, but that's not how gasses work -- in a short
>time, the CO2 and air will mix due to diffusion and/or turbulence).  Once
>you start siphoning the beer in, the CO2 will float on top of the beer and
>the air will be pushed out of the fermenter first.

actually, i don't purge until i rack the beer into the carboy.  then, i put
the co2 in, slowly. the couple of minutes that i have the beer surface in 
contact with air (during siphoning) is hopefully minimally damaging.  i'm
concerned more with long term exposure in a non-purged carboy.

regarding the "stratification" of co2 and air, i've recently tended to view
the purging of the headspace as more of a "dilution" of the air content, and,
like al, accept the fact that the co2 and air do not form perfect "layers".
i figure i'll waste less co2 by having to dilute just the headspace, and not
the entire carboy, at the risk of any oxidation effects while siphoning.


brew hard,

mark bayer


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:19:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: yeasts


i am looking for a beer yeast with a relatively high floccuation
(spelling?) and a high alcohol tolerance.  specifically, the yeast has to
brew up to 10% and still settle out like regular yeast.

any suggestions of brands and how to mail-order them?  i live in kingston,
canada, so my resources are limited.

thanks!
___________________________________________________________
This is Chris' signature:

C____ R__
    &%

 His home page is at http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjr7/


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:08:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Magnesium musings

RE: bitterness and SO4

<As you will recall, there was a long debate raging here over what exactly
<increases bitterness, Mg?  SO4?  MgSO4?  I had taken the position that it
<was the SO4 that was causing the *hop* bitterness to be *percieved* as
<more bitter, whereas others (like Dave Burley, who was polite, and others
<who will remain namecallers) felt that it was the Mg or the MgSO4 salt
<itself that produced the bitterness.

I checked one of my reference books (Moll, Beers and Coolers) on this.
Here is what he wrote about magnesium:

The reactions of magnesium bicarbonate are similar to those of
calcium bicarbonate but the reaction products are different.

2 KH2PO4 + Mg(HCO3) <-> MgHPO4 + K2HPO4 + 2 H2O + 2 CO2
4 KH2PO4 + 3 Mg(HCO3)2 <-> Mg3(PO4)2 + 2 K2HPO4 +6 H20 + 6 CO2

When heated, secondary magnesium phosphate changes into primary
and tertiary magnesium phosphate:

4 MgHPO4 (+ heat) -> Mg(H2PO4)2 + Mg3(PO4)2
(cold reverses the reaction)

As a result of heating the acidity increases, and this explains why
hot wort has a lower pH than cold wort.

The secondary and tertiary phosphates of magnesium are more soluble
than those of calcium.

Malt contributes sufficient magnesium to the wort: 130 mg/L for a 12P
wort.

Magnesium is a cofactor for certain enzymes.

During fermentation magnesium is involved in an important enzyme activity,
decarboxylation of pyruvic acid to acetaldehyde and CO2.

(and the important part which pertains to this discussion):

7.1 meq of MgSO4 does not affect beer flavor but in contrast 7.1
meq of Mg(HCO3)2 contributes an undesirable bitterness.

Prost!

Jim Busch

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:19:41 -0700
From: George Schamel <george.schamel at ast.lmco.com>
Subject: Fermenting in 10gal Corny?

Hello brewers,

I am considering switching to fermenting in 10 gallon corny kegs for
health and saftey reasons (broken glass and a bad back :{ ).  Does
anyone have experience with fermenting approximately 9 gallons in a
10 gallon container?  Specifically, how many gallons can one ferment
in a 10 gallon corny without excessive blowoff?

TIA for your help.

George Schamel
High Altitude Homebrew -- 10000 ft and still brewin'

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:18:51 -0700
From: mcatee at cadvision.com (Chris McAtee)
Subject: MARQUIS DE SUDS HOMEBREW COMPETITION

DEADLINE MARCH 15 - MARQUIS DE SUDS HOMEBREW COMPETITION -
                                            CALGARY, ALBERTA, CANADA

BEST OF SHOW - BREW YOUR BEER AT MISSION BRIDGE BREWPUB IN CALGARY, ALBERTA!

Categories are  1997 AHA style guidelines.  Nine winners in all.
Over 160 entries last year - BJCP  certified judges.  
ANY AND ALL ENTRIES WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Check out our website www.petersoninst.com/mds/mdspage.htm
or contact davisrm at cadvision.com

You will be competing against my <buzzard's gonad condensate> in the esb
category!

Chris McAtee MARQUIS DE SUDS


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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:18:52 +1100 (EST)
From: prestonm at labyrinth.net.au (Mark Preston)
Subject: Potatoes in the beer??

G'day Every one,

Anyone out there used potatoes as an adjunct before??  If so what procedures
did you use to get the startch to convert to sugar? 

Is it just a matter of peeling and cleaning, then  heating in water to 65 -
70 Deg C. for an hour or so or is there more to it??

E-mail is fine will post results





   Cheers
 
Mark Preston
prestonm at labyrinth.net.au
Brewing somthing different in Melbourne, Australia..









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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:00:03 -0600
From: Steve Moore <stevem at phoenix.net>
Subject: The AHA Jihad

The Man (Charlie Papazian) wrote:

> I know there are several individuals out there, pecking away at their 
> keyboards who are NOT having fun homebrewing.  Homebrewing for me is 
> not about being angry.  Our Association of Brewers was designed for 
> people who enjoy the brewing industry - be it homebrewers, 
> professional brewers, industry suppliers and beer enthusiasts (it may 
> not be very meaningful to angry homebrewers). For those of you who are 
> angry, thankfully for all of us in this country, you have the choice 
> to stress, be angry and have a homebrew.

Zymurgy proclaimed homebrew folk hero Charlie Papazian is, of course,
inaccurate when He discounts AHA/AOB critics as morose malcontents. I
know many of the folks involved. Most of us are having a great time
making beer and supporting the homebrewing community through club
activities, homebrew contests, writing for other magazines besides the
Z-word and many other ways. I'm very happy to announce my recurring roll
in the upcoming TV drama, "Louis Bonham: The Homebrewers' Lawyer".

CP is correct in that some of us are "NOT having fun". It is tough being
an AHA critic on the net. This morning when I woke up, there was a 50
lb. sack of black patent malt in my bed. An attached note says that if I
don't clam up, they're going to put 8 teaspoons of gypsum in my
homebrewed stout.

Panicky Steve Moore
Grand Wazoo, The Foam Rangers (www.foamrangers.com)
Organizers of the 982 Entry 1996 Dixie Cup

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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:51:15 -0600
From: Ron Gasik <ronster388 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RIMS heater fittings/racking cane filter

Mark Szwaya asked:

In the article, John Roberts has the heating element is mounted inside a
1 
1/2 inch copper tubing but the Vulcan element has a 1 inch NPT(M)
fitting. 
 Can anyone give a schematic of the materials they used for their
heating 
element housing and suggestions as to where I could get them?

- --------

I could not find the fittings anywhere to do what you're looking to do
so I made my own!  Even if you can find the tees, bushings and reducers
you
need, you may find out that when you assemble them, your wort intake is
so
high up the tube that little actually flows over the element.

What I came up with is working well.  My 1 1/2" copper tube has an
endcap
soldered on to each end.  For my wort-out line, I simply drilled a hole
into the center of the cap and soldered in a 1/2 rigid copper pipe.  For
the
element end, I drilled a 1" hole into the other endcap.  I couldn't find
fittings, so I took a 1" copper NPT to 1" rigid adapter and hacksawed
the threaded portion off.  After carefully filing it, I soldered this
threaded "nut" onto the endcap that had the 1" hole in it.  Screw your
element in there.  For the wort-in line, I drilled through the side of
the
element endcap and into the tube and soldered a piece of 1/2 rigid
copper there.  The wort flows in VERY close the the bottom of the
element
giving me virtually no dead flow areas in my tube.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark Evans asked:

I'm siphoning secondary today (dry hopped IPA) for bottling, and as I
monkey-rig a filter on the end of my racking cane, I'm wondering how
other
brewers have dealt with (in clever ways) this problem.  Some small
descriptions of hop flower/pellet/trub filtering methods might be nice
- --
including materials, etc.
thanks!
mark
- ------------------------------
I cut a small, sanitized patch of fabric from a babushka that I
"borrowed" from my grandma and stretch it over the orange-tip thingy
that goes on the end of the racking cane.  About 1" up the cane, I
secure
it with a sanitized rubber band.  All the flow has to go through the
fabric to get into the cane, filtering out hops and trub balls. (It also
does NOT add any aeration).  As long as it's sanitized, infection's
not a problem.  Mine occasionally gets clogged - a little shake works
well
to unclog it.


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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 07:43:16 -0600
From: Kris Southerland <ksouth at bowe.ccm.net>
Subject: Need an answer

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me what cold break and hot break are?
What do they do?
TIA!
P.S. Thanx for HBD alive!
- -- 
Kris Southerland
***********************************************************************
** http://www.ccm.net/~ksouth                                        **
** please sign the guest book.                                       **
** mailto:ksouth at ccm.net                                             **
** while you are there get a FREE Pager!                             **
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:44:57 -0500
From: "John M Perkovich" <john at draftsman.com>
Subject: Chrome plated brewing spoons

Does anyone out there know if using "chrome plated" spoons during brewing
will have any adverse effect on the final brew?  I ran across these spoons
dirt cheap, but if they will taint the beer...there gone.

John Perkovich

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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:11:36 -0600 (CST)
From: rachel.imsland at midplains.net (Rachel Imsland)
Subject: brew dogs

my brew dog?  My Old English (sheepdog) of course. (considering my
propensity for english ales)
mark

p.s. sorry about the assed sig file on my last post.  I know how the list
hates added bandwidth (tongue in cheek)



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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:17:15 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Light Strike/Infection?

Steve Alexander wonders where the sulfur in lightstruck mercaptans comes
from as the light-cleaved isohexenoyl side chain (the part that hangs down
in the usual depiction of isohumulone - cut off just below the keto group)
doesn't contain any. The answer is from elsewhere where elsewhere means
dissolved H2S or, to quote H,BS&Y (VII p494), "..any available thiol in the
beer..." Note that it is sulfur laden lagers which are most susceptible to
light strike. The referenced page (and preceding) shows the mechanism and
references Gunst and Verzehle, J Inst Brewing 84, 291 (I haven't seen
this).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Brian Deck reports a "winey" taste and over carbonation. He suspects
contamination of the yeast cultures. Given the lab equipment he has
available I would suggest microscopic examination of one of the
funny-tasting beers. It should be hard to find an interloper. In infected
beers the interlopers are quite numerous. Now there are two kinds of
interlopers under consideration: bacteria and wild yeasts. Bacteria are
easy to spot. Wild yeast are sometimes easy to spot because they are
morphologically different (shape, size, flocculation properties etc) but
sometimes they look like normal brewing strains (to normal brewers - Dan
McConnel could probably pick out the cuckoos). The evidence (winy taste and
fermentation of dextrines) does suggest a wild yeast but note that other
things (oxidation, use of too much simple sugar as opposed to malt derived
sugar) can cause a winy/cidery taste and excess priming can cause excessive
carbonation. It might be a good idea to try a brew with a large,fresh
starter from a new liquid yeast package and see if the beer has any of the
funny characteristics. If so, look to other aspects of brewing although
once established, funny bugs can be hard to eliminate (hide in hoses,
cracks, scratches etc.). The idea behind the large starter is to overwhelme
any such lurkers.

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.
Please Note New e-mail Address



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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 97 14:24:18 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: enough-already boy

 Elvis (I guess) writes
>From: ELVIS942 at aol.com
>Subject: enough already

>I'm a newbie...I'm wondering what the usefulness of it is when people
 >like Dave and Al K. use it as a forum to bicker like little boys over the 
>intricacies of sulfates or botulism or anything else they can find to 
>argue about.  Frankly, it detracts from the
>hobby that I'm trying to learn about, so KNOCK IT OFF!  Who cares!? 
> Unload your homebrewers ego and let's have some interesting info passed.  
>It makes sense to me that whether magnesium or calcium causes bitterness
> or not is a matter of individual taste.  Then point is, experiment with what 

>you like and then make up your own opinion.  Enough already...

Elvis, I am not going to tell you what to do, (unlike you are doing to us). 
But let me say that when I was first learning to brew I poured over the HBD. A 
lot of it was over my head, (some of it still is). There was the occasional 
flame-fest, and plenty of long running technical threads about things that did 
not seem to have any thing to do with homebrew. But I read them all, and you 
know what, as I progressed in my brewing ability, those insignificant things 
began to make sense. Some day (hopefully) you are going to be at a stage at 
which you sweat the small stuff. (I hope that is when I get to drink your 
beer) Then you will be able to appreciate the overload of information. In the 
meantime, why don't you just hit that little key marked PageDown when you get 
to a spot that bugs you.
And let us have the privilege of making our own decisions about what we read 
on the HBD.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

    *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******

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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:42:14 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at pex.net>
Subject: building a RIMS heating chamber

Mike Szwaya (mike.szwaya at coler-colantonio.com) asks questions about 
the design of his RIMS heating element.  Finally, a subject that I 
feel somewhat qualified to respond to (not that that's every stopped 
me before;):

> My question/problem is this:  I initially mounted my heating element
> inside 1 inch PVC which, in retrospect, was a pretty stupid idea.

Yes, especially with plastic PVD.  The insides of the PVC were
practically touching the element.  I tried this with brass fittings 
and it worked a little better, but I would still recommend against 
it.  You must use 1.5" piping (Cu or SS) to avoid these problems.

> After 4 or 5 brews, the heating element melted the PVC and split the
> pipe, luckily at the tail end of a sparging session.  Not only that,
> but after I disassembled the unit, I found that the very small
> volume of the 1 inch pipe caramelized the wort and left quite a bit
> of scorched residue on the element.  

Similar experinece here.  My element died in the middle of a sparge 
on the day I had my entire brewclub over to observe. Doh!  Anyway, I 
later opened the chamber to remove the element only to find the 
entire element covered in a black hard layer of carbonized wort, 
crud, and husks about an 18" thick.  It was beginning to even touch 
in the middle between the element!  I'm sure it acted as insulation 
preventing the heat transfer to the wort so it eventually overheated 
and killed itself.

> (I wouldn't doubt if I left the heater on once or twice while the
> pump was off)

Me too a couple of times.  Hopefully I will eliminate this faux 
pax with practice. Point is, even making the chamber larger and if 
you always turn the element off before the pump, you will still have 
a soft fuzzy tan colored residue on your element after every batch.  
I haven't obvserved this, but it has been confirmed through some of 
my discussions with Dion Hollenbeck. If left alone, it will 
eventually begin to slow your heat transfer efficiency and may even 
become black carbonized crude like mine.  Moral of the story is that 
you should build your heating chamber so that the element is easily 
accessible to be removed and cleaned periodically.

> I initially wanted a bigger housing for the element but had a hard
> time locating equipment. In the article, John Roberts has the
> heating element is mounted inside a 1 1/2 inch copper tubing but
> the Vulcan element has a 1 inch NPT(M) fitting.

I too, had a hard time finding the local supplies I need to build 
my heating chamber.  I know it can be done, but there comes a point 
when you just say f*ck it and go buy it.  So I bought just the 
heating chamber from Kerri Hauptli at BrewCraft Ltd (you may have 
seen his adds in the back of Zymurgy and Brewing Techniques 
classifieds section.  The chamber is fairly well built and I am happy 
with it.  My only concerns are that it contains some pieces that are 
attached/secured using non-toxic epoxies and/or puddies and I would 
have preferred all threaded and/or sweated connections. (PS This aint 
an ad for BrewCraft, just an offering of more information).  Kerry 
usually sells them with the heating element installed, but he may 
also sell you just the copper chamber if you ask nicely.  His email 
is on my RIMs web about half way down the page (see below).

Hope This Helps

====================================== 

And Finally: 1997 U.S.Open homebrewing competition sponsored by the
Carolina BrewMaster will be held again this year in Charlotte, NC on
April 26.  Send you entries in now before it's too late.  Check out
the brewclub's web page below for detailed information well as
online entry forms.  And ask me if you have any questions.  Thanks!

- ---------------------------------- 

PS- In HBD#2354 (2/21/97) I found it noteworthy to point out that Al
(my subject headers alone could fill an entire HBD issue) Korzonis
and Dave (I also have lots of valuable info to offer but can become
long winded) Burley filled up approximately an entire third of the HBD
with their 10 posts combined. Actually, they each only posted twice,
but each of those posts contained large responses to at least three
other subject; for a total of 10 posts! Dave & Al, please consider
this a friendly constructive criticism, and definitely not flame.
Most of us on the HBD really do recognize you as having a lot of
knowledge to share about homebrewing.  But please just keep it more
succinct and preferable offline until it's time to post a summary.
Even if the summary says we addree to disagree based on these
points.

Thanks!

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
"Where if the kudzu don't gitcha, the Baptists will!"

mailto:keith.royster at pex.net
http://dezines.com/ at your.service - at your.service
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/cbm -Carolina BrewMasters
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/RIMS -My RIMS page, rated COOL! by the Brewery

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