---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: coffee stout (Brian Bliss)
  vacuum distillation (Bob McCowan)
  Re: Brewcaps ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Hopping formula (Louis Bonham)
  Storage of Hops (Phil Rozanski)
  RE: which hop calculation method? ("Bridges, Scott")
  Hop Extract........ (Tel 3024534948                      )
  Metal "mini-kegs" ("STARCAT")
  IBU calculation methods ("Dave Draper")
  Re: Brass Ball Valves, Fittings, etc (Scott Abene)
  long slow hazey beers (smurman)
  Brewcaps (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Mash efficiency (Graham Stone)
  sanitizing a kettle drain outlet ? (Jeff)
  Buchner Funnels & Aspirators (eric fouch)
  Re: Brewcaps (John Wilkinson)
  Honey Malt & Coffee Stout / ElDorado Water / Gott Bungs? (KennyEddy)
  Sparging equipment (Graham Stone)
  Re: Re: Brewcaps ("Kim Lux") (Kim Lux)
  5 Liter kegs (Ralph Mansfield)
  Carboy Cylindro-conical (Charlie Scandrett)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 9 May 97 06:18:00 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: Re: coffee stout


I've heard (and tasted) that the secret is to wait until the boil
is over and the wort has been cooled to 150F to add the coffee.

Certainly you don't want to boil the coffee grains, and this produces
and astringent bitterness (not unlike a barley grain bitterness,
but not the same, either)

bb


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:45:15 -0400
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com>
Subject: vacuum distillation

I wonder how much hop aroma would be left after applying vacuum to the beer
for long enough to remove the alcohol.  As far as the legality, I haven't
looked at the CP pumps, but most the vacuum pumps I've worked with vent to
air, so you wouldn't be collecting and condensing the alcohol vapors.  The
same argument goes for using heat to remove the alcohol - I don't see where
you could be getting into trouble as long as you don't recondense the
alcohol; otherwise, chefs could get into trouble when adding wine to a dish
and boiling off the alcohol.

Bob

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan                            
                                     
ATG/Receiver-Protector            voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208
CPI BMD				    fax:  (508)-922-8914
Beverly, MA  01915               e-mail:  bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: Brewcaps 

 From: "Kim Lux" <lux at cadvision.com>

<SNIP> 
> 4) I am going to make a "super size" airlock that I will put on the
> fermentation vessel for the initial stages of primary fermentation. This
> airlock will be the same principal as a small airlock, only the tube that
> goes into the stopper will be 3/4" or more in diameter and the water cup
> will be about a liter (4 cups) in size.  This should allow any and all foam
> and particulate matter to exhaust from the carboy during primary
> fermentation without any danger of plugging. 
> 
> Here is how I plan to use my "carboy fermentation vessel":
> 
> 1) I will pour cooled wort into the vessel as it comes out of my chiller. 
> I will pitch my yeast and afix the "super size" airlock.  I hope to fill
> the 23 L (6 US Gallon) carboy with about 21 litres of wort, enough so that
> after losses I have enough to fill a 19L corny keg.  
> 
> The fermentation vessel will sit on the floor on its stand and be wheeled
> with the wheel platform to wherever it is being stored for fermentation. 
> 
> 2) About 12 hours later I will drain off the trub that has settled at the
> bottom of the fermentation vessel (in the neck of the carboy.)   By gently
> rocking the carboy, I hope to get the material to settle in the very bottom
> of the neck.  When I briefly open the 3/4" valve, most of the trub should
> be washed out immediately. 
> 
<SNIP>


Kim

This sound like a good setup, but I would caution you that with the air 
lock on the top, and the drain on bottom, the water in the airlock could 
get sucked into the beer.

Arnold J. Neitzke                         Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi                          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:13:00 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Hopping formula

Dave writes:

>as i understand it, there are 3 different methods for calculating IBUs:
>Rager (highest numbers), Garetz (lowest numbers), and Tinseth (somewhere
>in the middle of the other two).  which one is correct?  which one is the
>standard or accepted measure for AHA style guidelines?  does it really
>matter?

If "correct" you mean which one will allow you to calculate the exact
IBU level you'll get, I'm afraid none of them are.  These (and other) 
forumlae simply provide estimates of the expected IBU level.  While 
they're infinitely better than Papazian's HBU nonsense, they're still 
just estimates.  There is (and probably can be) no simple formula that 
would allow you to calculate *exactly* what'll you'll get, because 
there are just too many variables that affect hop utilization (kettle
geometry, altitude, hop type and age, water chemistry, etc., in addition 
to the factors used in these forumlas).  Ray Daniel's book has a full
discussion of this.

If you *really* want to know your exact IBU level, there is only one 
way to find out -- assay the IBU level of your beer.  This costs about 
$40 through a lab like Seibel, and requires a UV spectrophotometer if 
you want to do it yourself, but then you'd both know what your IBU level
is (well, at least for that beer) and which of the available forumla 
is most accurate for your brewing conditions. 

For those of you interested in this area, stay tuned.  I recently 
acquired a working UV spectrophotometer at a surplus auction that
is destined to be on long term loan to Houston's Foam Rangers homebrew 
club.  Once we get the club "lab" established in the back room of a 
local homebrew establishment (DeFalco's), Foam Rangers will be able
to do IBU assays and color analyses, and really serious types can 
even do protein and diacetyl analyses), and I suspect that the Dixie
Cup may even have the spec on site for limited use during the final
 / BOS rounds.  We may offer IBU and color assays to the rest of the
homebrewing world for super cheapo prices (probably less than $10 (to 
cover costs of reagents) for both), but I'm still looking into all the
legalities and such of that possibility.  [Unlike a certain national
organization, the Foam Rangers take *their* nonprofit status seriously.]

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net

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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:24:11 -0500
From: Phil Rozanski <pvrozanski at mke1.ra.rockwell.com>
Subject: Storage of Hops

Mark Tumarkin writes:

(snip)

>On another hops related note, I am thinking about getting a Daisy Seal a
>Meal vacuum heat sealer, but the company (now Rival Corp) told me that
>their bags are not oxygen barriers and that you can get "industrial
>bags". I'd appreciate hearing from anyone that has used the Daisy Seal a
>Meal (or any other similar devices you'd recommend), what kind of bags
>did you all use? Does anyone know of sources for industrial quality
>oxygen barrier bags?  TIA

I use the Food Saver vacuum sealer for storing my hops in the freezer.
The bags are advertised as being oxygen barrier bags. The fact that
almost all of the air is removed from the bag doubles the shelf life of
the hops. My Food Saver also came with an attachment for vacuum sealing
canning lids on canning jars. I use these for storing smaller quantities
of malt. This year I=92m attempting to grow my own hops and I=92m plannin=
g
on storing them in canning jars using this method. The only drawback to
the Food Saver is the price. Somewhere between $100-$200. I have seen
them at Sam=92s Club but I didn=92t notice what they had them selling for.
All thing considered though, I still consider it a pretty good value if
you use it for packaging other food items for storage.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 May 97 09:16:00 EDT
From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: RE: which hop calculation method?



Dave Writes:

>as i understand it, there are 3 different methods for calculating IBUs:
>Rager (highest numbers), Garetz (lowest numbers), and Tinseth (somewhere
>in the middle of the other two).  which one is correct?  which one is the
>standard or accepted measure for AHA style guidelines?  does it really
>matter?
>TIA...
>dave hansen

Darn good question, Dave!  I wonder about this myself.  I use the Garetz 
numbers.  I have no real evidence to suggest that this is more accurate than 
the other 2.  After reading Mark Garetz' book, Using Hops, I just decided to 
go with his numbers.  But really, who knows?  Being the most conservative, 
with all other things being equal, using Garetz utilization numbers will 
give you the most bitter beer of the 3 methods, right?  Rager, the least 
bitter, and Tinseth in between.

I don't know which is "right", but I suspect that it doesn't really matter. 
 I believe that equipment and process also contribute to determine the 
actual isomerization of the hops, which obviously, is different from brewer 
to brewer, even from batch to batch.  As in many other things in brewing, 
all that really matters is repeatability and consistency.  As long as you 
can get a beer to taste the way you want it to, consistently, use whichever 
method you like.

I would like to hear some more expert opinions on the subject, since mine 
has no scientific basis except for the meager amount of reading I've done on 
the subject.

Scott


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:05:13 -0400
From: William Lau </I=WT/G=William/S=Lau/OU=UNVAXC/ at ZENECA.tmailuk.sprint.com> (Tel 3024534948 )
Subject: Hop Extract........

I didn't get a response last week when I made this query, so I 
just wanted to try once more before I went off blindly (after a 
few pints) experimenting.

Anyone have any experience using L.D. Carlson hop extract?  I 
need to bitter some beer that was improperly formulated.  Any 
ideas on bittering potential of this extract?  % alpha?

If no one has any experience, I'll definitely report my results.

Keep Brewing!!!!!!

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:57:17 -0700
From: "STARCAT" <starcat at pathwaynet.com>
Subject: Metal "mini-kegs"

Hello all!  A store in my area carries metal "mini-kegs" for homebrewers,
along with a separate carbon dioxide device that adds carbonation
(supposedly this is adjustible).  The kegs are the "party size" (about a
gal and a half) ones similar those that come pressurized in the stores. 
Anybody use one of these - and how have you liked it?  They want $70 for
the carbonation part alone and $15 for each keg.  Is this reasonable or
does someone have a better deal?  I kind of like the idea of a mini keg,
but if these things are trama to deal with I don't want to be out of $85
either.  Private e-mail OK.  Thanks!


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:18:51 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: IBU calculation methods

Dear Friends,

David Hansen asks the perennial question, which IBU calculation 
method is best and does it really matter?

First off, I think all will agree that none of these methods is 
"correct" in the sense that it reaches the Absolute Truth of what 
your bitterness levels are.  Many brewers will use a flat utilization 
rate at all wort gravities and volumes rather than the more elaborate 
schemes outlined by the authors mentioned (and one was omitted from 
David's list -- Randy Mosher's data).

What it then comes down to is which scheme seems to work best for 
one's own setup.  Many brewers have reported in these pages that they 
found Mark Garetz's utilization numbers to be too low, so that when 
they hopped according to that schedule they got much more bitterness 
than they wished (this was also my own experience).  Many have found 
Rager's to be perfectly acceptable in their setups.  Still others 
believe that Glenn Tinseth's are closest to reality.

My view is that at the moment, the Tinseth dataset is by far the most
complete, systematically obtained, and well-documented of those
currently available.  Glenn has taken pains to document his
procedures and results in a way that the others have not, and this
makes his data appealing to me (brings out the science geek in me, I
guess).  One may or may not find that his numbers produce what one
expects in one's setup, but at least you can see just how the data
were produced.

I won't go into detail here because you can check it out yourself at
Glenn's hop page at the RealBeer site (http://realbeer.com/hops/);
but one fundamental difference between his results and those of
Rager and Garetz is the shape of the utilization curve-- his (and
Mosher's if memory serves) is decidedly S-shaped, whereas the Rager
formulation assumes a much more linear relationship.  Given the
complexity of the reactions that take place during isomerization of
alpha acids in boiling wort, I have difficulty believing that a
linear relationship will accurately describe The Truth.  The S-shape
may not be right either, but I find it plausible to suggest that the
more complicated behavior (which showed up when the systematic
approach Glenn used was employed) might be more realistic.

In my setup, Glenn's numbers have consistently given me results that
come exceedingly close to what I expect.  Rager's are next closest,
but I have experienced underbittering when using his values.  As
mentioned above, I got seriously overbittered beer when I used the
Garetz numbers.  If I had to recommend one, I would recommend
Glenn's, but I would strongly urge anyone who really gives a damn to
try all three and then try to get as accurate a bitterness estimate
of the finished product as possible to see which works best *for
you*. 

Hope this helps,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
             ddraper at utdallas.edu  Home page: hbd.org/~ddraper
                   Beer page: hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
 ...I drink cool ale... ---Kirk Fleming


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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:23:14 -0500
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Brass Ball Valves, Fittings, etc

Nick McClain <nmcclain at star-link.net> Wrote:

>
>Are stainless ball valves a necessity or will brass do the job without
>any adverse effects.  I'm currently in the process of modifying my new
>stainless brew pot, mash tuns, and fermenter.  Is the price of stainless
>really worth it???????


SS is as you already know expensive. I chose to use Brass fittings. After
doing some research I found that Brass contains some lead. You can soak your
brass fittings in a Peroxide/Vinegar solution. Use 2 parts Vinegar (White
Distilled), 1 part Peroxide to soak your fittings in and watch the magic. 

You will get some black residue that comes off in the solution (The lead I
think) and when your brass reaches a buttery gold color you should be lead
free...

I used a bowl that could be thrown away after the soak because I am
completely paranoid about my family and lead.

Enjoy.

C'ya!

 -Scott "It's got to be Plaid" Abene
################################################################ 
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                        # 
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>                 # 
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) # 
#                           OR                                 # 
#  http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/ (Brew-Rat-Chat) # 
#              "Get off your dead ass and brew"                # 
#     "If beer is liquid bread, maybe bread is solid beer"     # 
################################################################ 


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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:37:18 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: long slow hazey beers


John, George and others responding to my rant about adding finings
for clarification.  I guess I should further clarify.

I understand *why* people are using finings, what I'm wondering is
why they're so necessary to begin with.  As I mentioned, I can't
be doing things much differently than the rest of you, heck I 
learned many techniques from this forum, but I've had one batch
of hazy beer in the last 12, and that was a recipe problem.  I'm
sure this has been beaten to death here, but why is it that some
will have mega-haze while others won't, when presumably we're using
the same practices and similar recipes.  I've seen sparge water
temp. mentioned, skipping protein rests, incorrect protein rests,
incorrect sparge pH, and just plain bad luck blamed.  As someone
who also likes clear beer (and more importantly who's friends 
also like clear beer), I don't want to start brewing hazy beer
but right now I don't know what I'm doing right.

SM (no chains, some whips)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:03:18 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Brewcaps

>From: "Kim Lux" <lux at cadvision.com>
> ...I am going to build my own "carboy fermenter vessel" as follows:...
> ...
> ...What does everyone think of this idea ?  Has anyone done something similar

It sounds like you have boundless enthusiasm for this project. Good. 

> 3) I am going to afix a 3/4" quarter turn brass valve to the neck of the
> carboy via a drilled out stopper and miscellaneous harware.  (I will
> probably wire the stopper in place like a wine cork, but I will need to
> test this first.)

Ok, test it again and again. Of course, it cannot be allowed to leak even a
little or you will have disaster. The ball valves seem to take quite a bit
of force to open and close and I am concerned that the force applied will
wiggle the stopper and cause endless trouble.

> 4) I am going to make a "super size" airlock that I will put on the
> fermentation vessel for the initial stages of primary fermentation. This
> airlock will be the same principal as a small airlock, only the tube that
> goes into the stopper will be 3/4" or more in diameter and the water cup
> will be about a liter (4 cups) in size.  This should allow any and all foam
> and particulate matter to exhaust from the carboy during primary
> fermentation without any danger of plugging.

Where would all the foam go? Into the airlock?  Dunno, seems like a grand
mess here.
Why not just use the large diameter blowoff tube and then later change to
regular airlock?

> 2) About 12 hours later I will drain off the trub that has settled at the
> bottom of the fermentation vessel (in the neck of the carboy.)   By gently
> rocking the carboy, I hope to get the material to settle in the very bottom
> of the neck.  When I briefly open the 3/4" valve, most of the trub should
> be washed out immediately. 

This I wonder about. In my experience it seems that the yeast is on the
bottom and the hop particles and trub are on top. I wonder how much yeast
you will drain out. This method must work however, isn't this how the big
brewerys do it?

> 7)I will have less primary fermentation infection danger because a carboy
> is a more airtight primary fermenter than a plastic pail.

Every time you drain from the bottom, air will be sucked into the top
through the airlock.
You may get oxygen into your wort here. You could run come CO2 over the
airlock, or better yet, have a smaller input tube inserted in the same
stopper as the airlock and run some CO2 slowly into the headspace (very low
pressure and rate!!) it will bubble out the airlock, and as you drain from
the bottom air will not enter. After draining, remove gas and cap the input
tube.

> 8) To clean the fermentation vessel, I will spray in nearly hot water and
> scrub the carboy through the airlock hole to loosen any stubborn residue. I
> will fill the carboy with a chlorine bleach solution and leave it sit for a
> few days. I will then drain the carboy and place a stopper in the airlock
> hole to hold the generated chlorine gas. When I need to use it, I will
> rinse it with hot water to remove any chlorine residue. 

> Note: The improper cleaning and sterilization of the carboy is my biggest
> fear since it will not take the heat like my plastic primary fermentor
> will.  If I cannot get the ball valve clean, I may have to remove it from
> the carboy prior to subsequent useage.  How hot can rinse water be for a
> carboy ?

The chlorine bleach solution soak does a good job of loosening the crud. A
simple brushing after a soaking gets it all clean. Nearly every homebrewer
uses this method and it works well. Stop worrying about this one.

So Kim, good luck on your project, sounds like a good idea. Just remember
the primary rule when you are fooling around with your fermenter - always
have a homebrew when brewing.

Ron


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:01:20 +0100
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Mash efficiency

I brew a "lager" using 8kg Lager malt (Halcyon or Pipkin, I cannot 
remember) plus 1kg cooked rice.  I want to work our my efficiency.  How do 
I work out the potential of the rice?  I get about 1060 in practise.  Does 
this sound about right?


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:41:13 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: sanitizing a kettle drain outlet ?

Hi All,

  I've recently been reviewing all of my sanitation procedures in an
attempt to improve my homebrew.  One area that I have been neglecting,
and have never seen discussed here in the HBD before, is sanitizing
the outlet side of a ball valve used for a drain on the bottom of the
kettle.

  My setup consists of a 1/2 bbl sankey keg that I chopped a hole in 
the top of and installed a homemade ezmasher type hop/trub filter in
the bottom.  The drain was installed with a 3/8 NPT SS nipple welded
into the side of the keg near the bottom and a 3/8 brass ball valve
mounted about 4 inches away from the keg wall.

  What I have been doing to use this drain is after I chill the wort
with an immersion chiller, I connect a sanitized racking hose to the
ball valve using a sanitized brass 3/8 NPT to 3/8 hose barb.  The
other end of the hose then goes into a sanitized carboy and gravity
does the rest.

  Now I *assume* that the inlet side of the ball valve has been
sanitized by it's contact with the boiling wort, but I have not been
doing anything to sanitize the outlet side of the valve before
connecting the drain hose.  What do other people who use this type of
kettle setup do to sanitize the outlet?  Do you assume that the heat
from the burner has sanitized the outlet?  Do you spray the outlet
with some type of sanitizer (Idophor, grain alcohol, etc.)?

  Private email is fine, and I'll post a summary to the HBD if there
seems to be any interest.

                                         Hoppy brewing,

                                         Jeff

==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:41:26 -0500 (EST)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%0004972576 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Buchner Funnels & Aspirators


Date: Friday, 9 May 1997 10:34am ET
To: STC012.HOMEBREW at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Buchner Funnels & Aspirators
In-Reply-To: The letter of Friday, 9 May 1997 2:38am ET
 
HBD-
Far be it from me to provide anybody with the kind of information that would
allow them to participate in an illegal activity, but anytime you can do
something cheaper, I'm there, dude.
After succesfully constructing and installing an EasyMasher in my brew pot
(no more annoying stuck siphons) I thought about this LA nad NA brewing
thread.
Actually, that first line should be "Far be it from me to provide anybody with
the kind of information that would allow them to make LA or NA beer.."
but I'm not here to judge.
My memory takes me back to chem lab, where at each station we had an aspirator
hooked up to the sink faucets, in series with a Buchner flask.  Applying the
proper seals, we thought it was neat to make the water in the Buchner flask
boil at room temp:
 
 
         faucet                    stopper
          |  |                       ____
          |  ----_________________   |  |
          |  ----_________________----  |
          |  |    hose            ----  |
          |  |                       |  |
          |  |                       /   \
         water out                 /       \
                                 /   vacuum  \
                               /               \
                             /                   \
                            _______________________
                                Buchner flask
 
Please forgive me my sorry attempt at ASCII art.
Now all you gotta do is find a 6 gallon Buchner flask.  If you don't need to
watch, you could hook the hose to a pressure cooker.  Put a vacuum gage on
in place of the pressure gage, and the pressure should start to lower when the
alcohol is removed.  I guess this shouldn't be illegal, since you are not
concentrating tha alcohol:  It is actually getting diluted as it's aspirated
down the sink.  I wouldn't recommend doing this to a glass fermenter, as they
are not rated for pressure (negative or positive).
 
OK- brew on Wayne....brew on Garth.
 
Can someone direct me to a website or news group featuring the soon to be
famous Lucy Lawless National Anthem Boob Shot (Red Wings-Ducks game three)?
I saw it real time, but, oh to linger...It looked cold down there on the ice]
 
Eric Fouch
Not So Bent Dick Anymore YactoBrewery
Kentwood MI


- --Boundary (ID i.g+01I-IO3UX6.Z729:34Q4=MDGI2IG)--

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Date: Fri, 9 May 97 12:51:47 CDT
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: Brewcaps

Kim Lux proposed modifying a 6.5 gallon carboy to use inverted with a homemade
type of Brewcap.

>1) I am going to cut a 1.5" hole in the bottom of a 6 US gallon (23L)
>carboy with a glass cutter.

The only glass I have cut was very smooth plate glass so I don't know how
cutting the irregular, thick glass of a 6.5 gallon carboy would be done.

>8) To clean the fermentation vessel, I will spray in nearly hot water and
>scrub the carboy through the airlock hole to loosen any stubborn residue. I
>will fill the carboy with a chlorine bleach solution and leave it sit for a
>few days. I will then drain the carboy and place a stopper in the airlock
>hole to hold the generated chlorine gas. When I need to use it, I will
>rinse it with hot water to remove any chlorine residue. 
>
>Note: The improper cleaning and sterilization of the carboy is my biggest
>fear since it will not take the heat like my plastic primary fermenter
>will.  If I cannot get the ball valve clean, I may have to remove it from
>the carboy prior to subsequent usage.  How hot can rinse water be for a
>carboy ?     

I have quite good results using TSP to clean both carboys and SS kegs used
as fermenters.  A solution of about 5 Tbs of TSP in warm water left to soak
for less than an hour has always removed any crud without scrubbing.  I find
TSP in the paint department of hardware stores.  I understand it is not
available everywhere, however.  Quite good if you can get it, though.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Kenny Schwartz wrote regarding removing alcohol by vacuum distillation:

>Remember that performing this operation will concentrate and collect alcohol
>and is therefore illegal distillation.

If the resulting vapors are not collected and cooled to liquid would it be
distillation?  I would think driving off alcohol would be perfectly legal
as long as the alcohol was not collected.  There would seem to be no
concentration of alcohol involved.


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:31:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Honey Malt & Coffee Stout / ElDorado Water / Gott Bungs?

This particular reply applies to everyone who has a question about anything:

FIRST SEARCH THE ARCHIVES AT http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/HBD.html

There were extensive discussions within the past year on Honey malt, coffee
in stouts, and Gott cooler conversion, with much good information shared.  If
you don't have web access, of course, then by all means post a request.  But
PLEASE do a search first if at all possible.  You'll probably find all the
information you need.

*****

Steve Gray asks about his local water and suitability for brewing.  Before I
address his particular situation, I want to again mention BreWater 2.0, a
water treatment utility program for Windows available on my website (see sig
line).  Version 3.0 is done and waiting on a couple of beta tests; it
includes an acid pH adjustment calculator and a Formulation Wizard which will
automate the formulation process if you don't want to do it yourself.  I just
finished the Help File so I hope to post 3.0 real soon.

Steve, your water is very soft and "lite", so the good news is that it's an
excellent base from which to add salts to achieve almost any brewing water
you desire.  The bad news is that it's softer than you'd like for most
styles.  Pilsners and other light lagers can benefit from this "clean" water
profile, though even then you may have to play some games to get your mash pH
in shape.

My suggested "minimum water treatment" is as follows.  This should give you
sort of an "all-purpose" water suitable for many brews.

Add 0.5 grams (1/8 tsp) Epsom Salt, 0.2 grams (1/2 of 1/8 tsp) chalk (calcium
carbonate), and 2.0 grams (1/2+ tsp) Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons.  You
need more calcium than your tap water has, to ensure adequate mash pH
buffering as well as alpha-amylase stability; I shoot for 35 - 40 ppm min.
 Using CaCl2 will allow you to boost Ca without going overboard on sulphate,
which can harshen hop bitterness.  The Epsom salt adds a bit more magnesium
for yeast nutrition as well as a bit of sulphate to just focus the hop
bitterness a bit (probably a stretch but won't hurt even most delicate
profiles).  You could skip it.

If you don't have CaCl2, add 0.2 grams chalk and 2 grams (3/4 tsp) gypsum per
5 gallons.  While this raises sulphate quite high (but not outrageously),
that's the price you pay using gypsum to add calcium.  CaCl2 is arguably the
better choice; your beer character will tolerate chloride better than
sulphate.  Two sources of CaCl2 are HopTech and Sunset Suds.

Results of these formulations:

          Ca    SO4    Mg    Na    Cl    Bicarb    Hrdns    Alk

Yours     4.7   2.4    0.85  11    5.4     15       15      15

1)        38    13     3.5   11    56      21      108      26

2)        34    61     0.85  11    5.4     21       87      26

*****

One additional comment about the Gott conversion using Fass-Frisch bungs:  if
you insert a 1/2" male NPT by 1/2" hose barb fitting into the 1/2" tubing
that Spencer suggested using with the bung in HBD2414, you now have a
"universal" fitting to which you can attach a huge variety of valves and
plumbing to suit your needs.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:18:11 +0100
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Sparging equipment

I operate a 3 tier system with gravity feed from my hot water tank to my 
mash tun.  I sparge with a rotary sparge arm or just lay a tube on top of 
the grain bed and this works nicely, but...  As the level of water in the 
hot water tank drops, so the head reduces and the flow slows down (of 
course it does!).  As a consequence of not have too much space at the top 
of my mash tun and because it is my intention to keep about 2-3 cm of 
sparge water on top of the grain bed, I naturally have to reduce the 
run-off rate from the mash tun.  In closing the tap/spigot from the mash 
tun to achieve this, I occasionally get blockages from particles of grain, 
etc.  This all means that I have to keep a fairly close eye on it 
throughout the whole run-off/sparge process.  I get good extractions using 
a very slow run-off (85% efficiency but 1.5 hours in total) but I want to 
be able to leave the process to finish without constant attention.  I 
realise that if I pumped the sparge water into the mash tun I could avoid 
most of this but I am having difficulty persuading the wife that I need 
MORE brewing equipment!  Does anybody have a better arrangement that they 
would like to share with me?


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:47:30 -0700
From: Kim Lux <lux at cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Brewcaps ("Kim Lux")

With repect to my post in HOMEBREW Digest #2415, Fri 09 May 1997 describing
an upside down carboy fermentation vessel:

(I don't know what to call this thing.  Does anyone want to suggest a
common term ?  Does it warrant one ?)

I have had several email replies to my post asking how to cut the hole in
the bottom of the carboy.  As you may note in my post, I intend to build
this device this fall when I resume brewing. I have not yet built or
attempted to build this device. EVERYTHING I AM PROPOSING IS UNTESTED AND
EXISTS ONLY IN THOUGHT.  

(My focus this summer will be on the consumption of brews, not the creation
of.) 

I have noted 3 or 4 different devices for cutting a 1" or larger hole in
the bottom of a glass carboy:

1) A radius glass cutter

There are glass cutters on the market that have a suction cup base, which
acts as a stationary point, and an adjustable arm with a diamond or roller
cutter that swings about the fixed center, for cutting circular holes in
glass.  My local glass shop says that these things work well for cutting
holes from about 1.5" to 6" in smooth, flat glass. (My carboy has a smooth
area for at least a 4" hole in its bottom.)  I worry that this type of
device may have some difficulty with the thickness of the bottom of the
carboy, but others tell me I worry too much.  "Relax have a ...    

I think these things cost about C$20


2) A glass spade drill bit

There are glass cutters on the market that look like a spade bit for a
drill. (The tip and outer edge of the bit has a diamond point to cut the
glass.)  These are supposed to work for cutting all types of glass.  I do
not know if their depth is limited and if they will be able to handle the
bottom of the carboy.  I think the catalog that I have lists bits that
range in size from 3/8 - 1"  

I think these things cost about C$15


3) A diamond "hole saw" drill bit

There are glass cutters on the market that look like a hole saw bit, but
the circumference of the bit is covered with diamond tips to cut glass or
ceramic.   (A hole saw bit looks like a cup with teeth on the rim and a bit
protruding from the bottom to stabilize and center the bit while drilling.)


I think that this device holds the most promise for drilling holes in the
bottom of carboys.  Model shipbuilders use these bits to cut numerous holes
in the SIDE and bottom of various glass bottles so that they have access to
assemble their ships.  If these bits can drill those sorts of holes, I
think they will have no problem handling the bottom of a carboy.   

I think the catalog that I have lists bits that range in size from 3/4" to
3".

These devices are the most expensive of the glass cutters.  I think a 1.25"
hole saw glass cutter lists for C$30.  

 
Please note that I have not attempted to purchase the cutter or cut the
hole yet.  (Would anybody in Calgary, Alberta, Canada like to donate a
carboy ?) In light of the interest, I may do this before the end of the
summer, just to see how it will turn out. :-) 


Aside I:  If this inverted fermentor thing works and there is so much
interest in having carboys with holes in the bottom, why don't we approach
the carboy manufacturers about making carboys with holes in them for us. 
We are, after all, the CUSTOMER, and isn't the customer always right ? 
Could the carboy manufacturers not also modify the shoulder slope on the
carboys to facilitate better trub movement ?

Could airlock manufacturers not also build us a "super size" airlock ? ( I
am about to take up wine making as well. I think there is just as much
reason to have an inverted carboy fermentor for brewing wines as beers,
especialy if you are brewing with real fruit, from scratch. )  Maybe our
home brewing shops should purchase one of these bits and drill the holes
for us, for a fee of course. 

Aside II: I got the idea while thinking of a microbrewery visit I did about
2 years ago.  Their fermentation vessel was an immobile copper tank with an
inverted cone bottom that lead to a drain valve.  (Like a hopper bin for
you farmers out there.)  If it works for the commercial brewers,should it
not work for us as well ?  

Do carboy and airlock manufacturers (or resellers, or distributors, or  ..)
read HBD ? 

Aside III:  I received an email from Mr. Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
pointing out that the HBD archives had an article suggesting the use of a
lazy susan bearing in the inverted carboy stand to allow the easy swishing
of the carboy to assist moving trub from the shoulders down into the neck
of the carboy. (Nice run on sentence !)  It is the exchange of information
like this that makes me post my ideas to this newsgroup before attempting
them.  Thank you for the suggestion, Kyle.  I may incorporate this into my
design. 

Aside IV: I received several emails stating that my concern about
over-heating and cracking a carboy while washing it with hot tap water was
unfounded.  This makes me feel much more comfortable about getting the
carboy clean enough to be a primary fermentation vessel.  

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with any glass cutting tool
manufacturers or manufacturers of brewing equipment. 

Kim Lux


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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:06:04 -0500
From: Ralph Mansfield <ralph at rocky.esrd.zenithe.com>
Subject: 5 Liter kegs

I have question that I hope you might be able to answer.  I started a
batch of homebrew about 2 months ago. Everything went fine until I got
to the bottling process. Instead of mixing 1 cup of sugar in about a
quart of water and boiling it, I used a cup of honey instead. This was
then added to the final brew, put in 5 Liter kegs and bottles and put
away to ferment. About a week later both kegs were bulging out at the
top and bottom. It looks as if they were ready to explode. They sat
like this for about 6 weeks until I tried to attach a tapper to one of
them. The pressure was so great that I could not push the plastic plug
out of the rubber stopper. After carefully prying up the rubber and
relieving the pressure was I able to insert the tapper. I could not
snap the tapper onto the rim because the top was greatly deformed. I
was able to get it to dispense with the CO2 cartridge inserted. The
only problem was the excessive foam that I was getting out. Once the
foam settled, the beer tasted good.

My questions are.. Can I substitute an equal amount of honey for sugar
or should I cut back on the amount. Did this cause the pressure to build
up in the kegs?
Second.. How can I eliminate the excessive foaming from the kegs? The
bottled beer was fine. I used Grolsch bottles with the rubber gasket and
did not have any problems with foaming. Any solutions you have will be
appreciated.
We are having a problem with our e-mail system at work. It does not show
my complete address when you receive it. It should read
*ralph at rocky.esrd.zenithe.com*.
Thank you in advance.



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Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:15:16 +1000 (EST)
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Subject: Carboy Cylindro-conical

Kim Lux has been doing some lateral thinking!
He posted,
>I am going to cut a 1.5" hole in a carboy with a glass cutter.  This hole
will >be large enough to allow the insertion of a regular airlock or a
"super size" >airlock.  This hole will also be used to pour wort into the
vessel, add fruit >and stir in priming sugar as ...

Good idea. The old fashioned method for drilling holes in glass is as
follows. I have used it on 5 litre starter carboys. 
1/ Build a plasticine dam (levy in US) around the centre of the flat bottom
of an upturned carboy. 
2/Fill it 1/8" deep with a thick slurry of glasscutter's carborundum.
(available from any glassworks)
3/ Insert a copper tube or wooden dowel in the end of a drill. This may take
some modification for 1.5", I did 1/2" and uuse funnel and tube. 
4/ Drill the glass. The carborundum becomes embedded in the Cu or woood and
acts as a soft grinder which wears away the glass.

>3) I am going to afix a 3/4" quarter turn brass valve to the neck of the
>carboy via a drilled out stopper and miscellaneous harware.  (I will
>probably wire the stopper in place like a wine cork, but I will need to
>test this first.)

I turned a stopper in a lathe to make the upper surface (when the carboy is
upside down) a conical depression. This aided trub/yeast extraction through
a *full bore* ball valve. Thread it in.

>2) About 12 hours later I will drain off the trub that has settled at the
>bottom of the fermentation vessel (in the neck of the carboy.)   By gently
>rocking the carboy, I hope to get the material to settle in the very bottom
>of the neck.  When I briefly open the 3/4" valve, most of the trub should
>be washed out immediately. 

The trub/dead yeast will settle in the neck easily if the included angle is
70 degrees or less. The conical shape of the stopper helps complete
extraction. I highly recomend trub removal at this stage. HB trub seperation
techniques are generally lousy and all benefit to fermentation will be over
at 12 hours, so get rid of it.

>I will then stir the beer with a long
>plastic spoon. I will sanitize the outlet of the 3/4" ball valve with
>alcohol and attach my sterilized bottling attachment. (The fermentation
>vessel will probably be lifted onto the counter for this operation. I will
>place my to-be-filled bottles in the sink on my counter and proceed to fill
>and cap them until I empty the vessel. I do it in the sink so that any
>overflow is easily washed away.) 

Cylindro-conical reality check. It is not that neat. All trub will be
removed but the yeast plug is not so clearly defined and will continue to
settle right up to bottling. The first three bottles will usually be very
cloudy and then clear progressively from there.

The solution (since we now have a handy glass drill) is to cut a small hole
1/3 to 1/2 way up the cone part of the carboy. (BTW, a "carboy" in Australia
has a distinctly conical neck, do US ones?) This will allow the attachment
of a bottling outlet without disturbing the yeast slurry/cloud is the apex
of the cone. (This is a commercial racking practice) Result clear beer. An
alternative is to insert a rubber stopper in your 3/4" outlet valve with a
tube in it with bottle filler attached. Open the valve and insert the tube
until it is above the yeast cloud.

> How hot can rinse water be for a
>carboy ? 

Not very, depends on the glass tempering.   

>What does everyone think of this idea ? 

Go for it, bloody good idea.

Charlie S. (Brisbane, Australia)


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