---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  BEER-L: RIP (Homebrew Digest)
  Old Starter? ("Chris Strickland")
  dark haze (smurman)
  storing empty cornies (Chris Niehaus)
  Gelatin/Polyclar/Timing of Additions (John Sullivan)
  a top 17 list ("Ted Hull")
  Ferment temp control (SCRIT)
  Spices in beer (David Johnson)
  Hops & Marijuana (yellowrug)
  Hector Landaeta ("David R. Burley")
  Lagering & CO2 (Bob Wilcox)
  RE:  Wheat beer / Koelsch / Starch and bottle grenades (George De Piro)
  Re: marijuana in beer ("Roger Deschner  ")
  widmer kolsch-similar to german kolsch? (BAYEROSPACE)
  Strike water calculation figured out (Wes Clement)
  Diastatic Power and Wheat Beers ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Pondering the imponderable; Part XXVII of MCMXCVII ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: Gunk Bucket ... (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Response to Partial Mash and HSA (Brad Manbeck)
  Wanted: hop rhizomes (Troy Hojel)
  Thanks to all (re: controlling fermentation temp) ("Robert Marshall")
  NHC and water testing (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  Ferm temp troubles (Brewers Beer Gear)
  Nitrogen carbonation (Nikki Rogers)
  Sulfuric Acid + Salt as ingredients (Brewers Beer Gear)
  Stirring wort- increased hop utilization ("C.D. Pritchard")
  2 Liter Coke Bottles (dsabin)
  chest freezer taps ("Robert DeNeefe")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: BEER-L: RIP

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

The BEER-L list was originally created to take the load off of Rob
Gardner's server, and has served admirably over the years! A hearty thanks
is due the BEER-L folks and Darren Evans-Young!

Due to recent mail problems between the Digest server and the BEER-L list,
and since the new server is dedicated to the Digest, erradicating the need
for "load sharing", the BEER-L list has been closed. The BEER-L
distribution list has been folded into the main list at the Digest server
(hbd.org). If you have been being serviced by the BEER-L list, please note
that all administrative messages should now be sent to
homebrew-request@hbd.org - this includes unsubscribe requests.

If you have any problems related to your subscription, please send your
queries either to the homebrew-reqest at hbd.org address, or the
janitor@hbd.org address.

Once again, a grateful thanks to those who have tended the BEER-L list! 
Enjoy your rest! 

See ya!
Pat Babcock & Karl Lutzen
janitor@hbd.org


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:32:21 -0400
From: "Chris Strickland" <cstrick at iu.net>
Subject: Old Starter?

I made a starter from some yeast left over in a champagne bottle (just
emptied) on Friday the 23rd.  Saturday morning it had started up yet, so I
didn't make beer.  Sunday, I didn't feel like it, and Monday was family
day.  The starter is still on the counter, fermented out.  Can I still use
it this Saturday?  Just as is, or do I need to restart it?

Thanks, I know this is late notice, but since my wife is working this
Saturday, it's the best time to make some brew.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Strickland - Approved Discount Vendor for SecureTax
Email: cstrick at iu.net
New Horizons Software - http://www.sitesurfer.com/newhoriz
[SAS/Fortran/C/UNIX/Software Test/VMS/WEB Services - Central FL]



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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:29:20 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: dark haze 


As long as we're discussing haze, can someone please tell me why dark
roasted malts are supposed to create a clearer beer.  Other than they
create a darker beer which light won't penetrate as easily.

SM

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:01:55 -0700
From: Chris Niehaus <critters at cosmoslink.net>
Subject: storing empty cornies

Because of my very busy work schedule over the summer I am unable to
brew-(insert violin music here)! Since my cornies will be empty(bummer),
what is the best way to store them? Should they be stored full of
liquid/dry? open/closed? under pressure/atmospheric pressure?

These might be stupid questions but I would rather ask a stupid question
than make a stupid mistake.

I will post a summary if there are any replies.
Christopher


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:04:59 -0700
From: John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Gelatin/Polyclar/Timing of Additions

What Rob says in his Jethro Gump report regarding the positive and 
negative charges of gelatin and fining agents certainly makes sense to 
me, though my described method of using both gelatin and fining agents at 
the same time has always worked.  On the other hand, I don't always use 
fining agents... only when there appears to be a problem with the clarity 
of the finished product.  I have used the polyclar as an insurance 
measure.  Recently, I made a Kolsch and an Alt both using the Wyeast 
Kolsch yeast which is not a very flocculent yeast.  As an aside, this 
yeast works quite well in an Alt.  The Kolsch turned out incredibly murky 
while the Alt turned out reasonably clear.  Since I could not attribute 
all of the haziness in the Kolsch to the yeast, I opted to use both 
agents.  Now I know that one beer is darker than the other so color had 
nothing to do with the clarity of the beer.  If you shined a light 
through the Alt you could see that it was quite clear as opposed to the 
muddy Kolsch.  Is there any reason that anyone can come up with (if the 
problem was yeast and not haze) on why the yeast would be more flocculent 
in the Alt as opposed to the Kolsch?  Perhaps a difference in pH?

Another point to make (for which I am sure someone will take issue) is 
that polyclar or bentonite can be used in your PRIMARY as a measure 
against haze.  Simply ensure that either agent is effectively sanitized, 
add it to your wort, pitch your yeast, shake/aerate as necessary and it 
should still do it's job.  Using polyclar, I have done this with no 
problem.  I have brewing acquaintances who have used the bentonite 
successfully.  They opted for bentonite because it is less expensive 
than polyclar.  If you opt to use bentonite, I would advise that it be 
limited to the primary where enough trub and yeast will bury and compact 
the mud-like substance before you rack to secondary.

John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO

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Date: Fri, 30 May 97 2:56:03 EDT
From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Subject: a top 17 list

I was surprised to see a pretty credible top beers in America 
list in Men's Health magazine, which is otherwise pretty 
fluffacious (the subscription was a gift, honest). Here goes:

(from northwest to southeast, sorta)
1996 Smoked Porter (Alaskan Brewing)
Adam (Hair of the Dog)
Black Butte Porter (Deschutes)
Snake River Zonker Stout (Snake River Brewing)
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (Sierra Nevada Brewing)
Liberty (Anchor)
Red Tail Ale (Mendocino Brewing)
Tabernash Weiss (Tabernash Brewing)
Pig's Eye Red Amber Ale (Minnesota Brewing)
Nutcracker Ale (Boulevard Brewery)
Celis White (Celis)
Belgian Red (New Glarus Brewing)
Red Mountain Red Ale (Birmingham Brewing)
Shipyard Export Ale (Shipyard Brewing)
Sam Adams Double Bock (Boston Beer Co.)
Degroen's Pils (Baltimore Brewing)
Dominion Lager (Old Dominion Brewing)

Enjoy

Ted Hull

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:49:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: SCRIT at aol.com
Subject: Ferment temp control

All  of my brewing takes place in my garage.   
The temp can exceed  85 degrees in the heat of the day. 
So for ale ferments,  I bought two of these  Rubbermaid  20 gallon tubs.
Insert the carboy in the tub and fill the tub with water.  My tap water is 62
deg.
The water will warm up to about  68 - 70. It keeps the ferment temp stable.
Once filled the water level is about to bottom of the neck of the carboy.
These tubs cost about $10 each.
Lagering is done in one of my three fridges. 

I hope the tip helps!

Joe

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:02:22 -0700
From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Spices in beer

Thanks to all who responded to my concerns about my weizen. I tested, no 
starch. I tasted, no infection. I moved it to a cool (55 deg) area of my 
basement and it has cleared a little. It will be bottled soon.
	On to my next question (if I am occupying too much bandwidth, 
please let me know. My wife is tired of listening to beer talk and who 
else do I go to?). I am planning a holiday brew. It is to be a high 
gravity spice beer in the belgian style (a Christmas Saison?). I have 
decided to ask the collective before I get into this (contrary to my 
usual practice of diving in). I have started my research with reviewing 
the Cat's Meow, Phillip Seitz article "brewing Belgian beers", Zymurgy's 
special issue on special ingredients, and searched the archives for how 
others have used spices. I am left with some questions. Specifically, 
Cardamom has been used in amounts from 1 gram to 4 tbs. and in both 
ground and pod form. I get the feeling that you don't actually put the 
pods in your beer and that ground is not as potent as grinding the seeds. 
I also see no mention of using it in the secondary (dry-podding?)which 
seems a logical thing to do. How to use and how much? I also saw no 
mention of using fennel which I would think might be interesting to try. 
There seems to be much more consistency in the use of coriander and some 
of the other spices.
	Thanks,
	Dave
Information, the most important brewing ingredient.


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:19:55 -0700
From: yellowrug <yelowrug at bouldernews.infi.net>
Subject: Hops & Marijuana

Since both hops and pot belong to the same family of plants, it is
possible to hybrid the two, resulting in (depending on your skill) a
vine plant with flowers that produce THC. Although I've never tried it
(seriously, I'm no gardener and I can't smoke), I would suspect that you
could spend a lifetime trying to get a decent flavor out of the mix.

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:48:25 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hector Landaeta

Brewsters,

Hector Landaeta commented that in his discussion of the additives to beer=
s,
local brewers said they were adding sulfuric acid and salt to their brews=
=2E =

He was told that this was based on the founding German brewers' methods.

I sent him this response privately, but got bounced:
- -------------------------------------
Hector,

Glad to see you are interested in beer brewing.

Adjustment of pH and salt content of the water is an integral part of
brewing to make beers of a certain style.

I suggest at you get some books on the subject from AHA , C. Papazian's N=
ew
Joy of Homebrewing or if you prefer a professional text from Seibel in
Chicago. Home brew magazines will list several possibilities.

The addition of food-grade sulfuric acid would make the water a little mo=
re
like German beers of the harder water areas with the sulfate giving a dri=
er
finish to the beer. The acid will adjust the pH down to a region where th=
e
pH is optimal for the enzymes in the malt to operate efficiently  The sal=
t
(if it was sodium chloride) will make the beer "rounder".  This sounds li=
ke
a Dortmunder style of Pils and the initial brewers may have been from tha=
t
region of Germany.  Try adjusting your sulfate content to 260 ppm and the=

chloride to 110 ppm while keeping the pH in the mash at about 5.2 - 5.3 a=
t
mash temperature ( or about 5.5 at RT) if you want to produce this kind o=
f
beer.  =

- -----------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:14:59 -0700
From: Bob Wilcox <bobw at sirius.com>
Subject: Lagering & CO2

Hi all I have a couple of question for you Lager Guys. I made  my first 
Lager an Oktoberfest from BYO mag. ( Jeff Frane ). All went well except I 
didn't brew it in March it was April, anyway OG 1.067 Primary for 2 weeks 
at 45 degs. Racked to secondary Gravity 1.033 held at 45 or so for 3 1/2 
weeks checked gravity 1.018 and still bubbling slowly. I racked to a keg 
and lowerted temp to the mid 30's. Now the question, do I need to worry 
about CO2 buildup in the keg and bleed the pressure off or just let it 
go. I am going to wait until October to drink it.

Email is fine for responce.

TIA
Bob


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:37:26 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE:  Wheat beer / Koelsch / Starch and bottle grenades

     Hi all,
     
     Ing. Hubert (is that right?) and Oliver write in about wheat beers.  
     They point out that German Weizens are not the same in the export 
     market as in their homeland.  They are pasteurized.  The one exception 
     that I know of is the classic Schneider Weisse.  It is not pasteurized 
     (even the export), and it is bottled with the original top-fermenting 
     yeast used for fermentation.  It is possible to culture the yeast, but 
     it is multi-strain.  This makes it difficult to duplicate Schneider 
     Weisse at home.
     
     The clear versions of Weizens that they mention are a different 
     substyle, called Kristal Weizen.  These are filtered, and are 
     generally lower in body and flavor than their unfiltered kin.
     -----------------------
     Brander was kind enough to post his findings about Widmer's Koelsch.  
     I never had the chance to try that beer, but I will comment on the 
     posted advice.  They recommend 45 IBU's!?  In a Koelsch?
     
     It is just not right to call a beer one thing and deliver another!  
     Koelsch should NOT be that bitter.  Not even close!
     
     To all those that would accuse me of being to stuck on the style 
     guidelines, I say this:  if you went to a restaurant and ordered a 
     steak sandwich, and received a hamburger, you'd be pissed!  Would you 
     accept an explanation like, "But sir, that is OUR version of a steak 
     sandwich."  Of course not!!
     
     Why should it be any different with beer?  If something is labeled 
     "Koelsch," I expect a Koelsch, dammit, not a turbo-hopped Pacific 
     Northwest blonde ale!  Call it what it is so that educated consumers 
     don't feel duped!
     --------------------------------
     Kirk responds to my post about starchy beer.  He brings up the good 
     point of lactose not being fermentable by Saccharomyces.  I would 
     imagine that something can metabolize it (heck, cows do).  My best 
     guess is that the microbes that can handle it can't live in beer 
     (anaerobic, low pH, etc.).  Just a guess, somebody with the proper 
     knowledge should feel free to jump in now.
     
     Kirk also recalls performing procedures that probably put starch in 
     his beers without yielding bottle bombs.  Well, one time I added 2 
     pounds of canned pumpkin to the boiler.  That's about as much starch 
     as you can add to beer short of pouring in flour.
     
     The beer tasted awful, but the first bottle didn't explode until 2 
     years later.  I guess it can take a while!  That could explain why 
     Kirk didn't have to clean up shrapnel.
     
     Moral of the story:  throw out that crappy beer before you get hurt!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:57:27 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: marijuana in beer

> my freind who made it said he soaked an ouce or so of bud in vodka for
> while (unspecified time) and when he split a bottle with his freind, he
> said he was feeling effects (hardcore effects) for 2 days.  Boy, that
> sounds like fun. (NOT)

I do believe that if I were to ever "split a bottle of vodka with a
friend", with or without extract-o-canabis, I would be feeling hardcore
bad effects for quite a while. It's called a "bad hangover". This is not
the right technique.

Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases:                  u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu        R.Deschner at uic.edu
==================== Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah =====================

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Date:     Fri, 30 May 1997 11:26 -0600
From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Subject:  widmer kolsch-similar to german kolsch?

collective homebrew conscience:

brander roullett (?) posted:   


>>"A few years back, Widmer was making a Kolsch that was outstanding.


and the brewing instructions from widmer:


>- --> Thank you for writing! Find the lightest pale malt you can
>(sometimes called 
>"lager malt" or "Pilsner malt"). Use a nice high mashing temperature to get 
>a full bodied beer - AE of 4.0 Plato (1.016). Hop with Czech or Domestic
>Saaz or similar to yield a bitterness level of about 45 IBU. We used out
>top fermenting alt yeast. A European lager or pilsner yeast would probably
>be more appropriate, but most importantly get the AE and bitterness right
>and you'll be happy.
>Prost!  <--

this recipe has great potential for producing a tasty pale beer, but the 
finishing gravity and hopping rate make it look more like a czech pilsner 
than a ko:lsch.  especially if you used a lager or pilsner yeast. 
ko:lsch is a protected description in germany and refers to 
a style in ko:ln that is very narrow.  the beer described above would be
different from the true ko:lschbiers brewed in ko:ln, and would probably 
not be allowed to use the designation "ko:lsch", even if it were brewed in
ko:ln.  particularly with a sideways umlaut.  (who knows, maybe they've 
lightened up lately, but this is the country that gave us the ss.)

i know this is nit-picky ar stuff, but it's valuable to have an idea about
styles and how they're traditionally defined.  ko:lsch is an example of one
where the brewers really went out of their way to protect and define the 
style.  and it's germany to begin with, so they're already about three steps
ahead of everybody else in terms of strictness with respect to beer styles.

i overhopped my ko:lsch this year and it tastes like a pils.  it tastes good,
but not like a ko:lschbier.

******

i can't remember who it was (and i've erased the rest of the last hbd), but
somebody had a problem with bottles of lager not carbonating.  the suspected
reason was that the yeast had went "too dormant" during the lagering period.

you can always bottle at the end of secondary and lager the beer in the
bottle, after it's had some time to carbonate.   similar, but not the same.
the most convenient method is kegging, in my experience, for lagers.

******

also, the "overfill/underfill" debate:  my experience has been that overfilled
bottles carbonate more slowly and never get up to the same carbonation level
as bottles with ~3/4 of an inch or more of headspace.  i can't explain it,
i haven't seen good experimental data to support it, but that's my empirical
evidence and it has repeated itself through the past 5 years of homebrewing,
without fail.  i used to vary headspace levels on purpose to see the effects
on carbonation and oxidation (especially pale ales and pilsners).  i still
always have a couple of bottles that get a bit too full.

brew hard,

mark bayer 


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:00:57 -0600
From: wesc at mails.imed.com (Wes Clement)
Subject: Strike water calculation figured out

Thanks to Domenick Venezia, Dave Draper, Bruce Breedlove, Dudley Leaphart, 
Charely Burns comments on Strike Water I think I got it figured out. 

I'll reference the some of Kelly Jones response from the HBD archives file 1207 
posting 19:

Cpm= heat capacity of your malt, about 0.32
Cpw= heat capacity of water, 1.0
Mw = mass of water used
Mm = mass of malt used
Tw = temperature of strike water
Tm = beginning temperature of malt (usually room temperature)  
Tf = final temperature of mixture (rest temp)

Masses and temperatures can be in any units, as long as you are consistent.

The basic formula, then, is

(1)  Tf = (Cpm*Mm*Tm + Cpw*Mw*Tw)/(Cpm*Mm+Cpw*Mw) .......so

I followed the equation for a single temperature infusion but found that with my
10 gallon Gott cooler, preheated to 100-110F water (from the sink) I need to use
a heat capacity constant of .5 for my setup.  (Kelly Jones suggested .32 and 
Domenick suggested .4 as a constant) My assumption is that you would need to 
verify the constant with your specific mashing technique. 

I wanted to know the temperature of the strike water needed to get a my grain 
bed to a specific temperature. So by rearranging the equation:

(2) Tw = (Tf*(Cpm*Mm+Cpw*Mw)-Cpm*Mm*Tm)/(Cpw*Mw)

Cpm= 0.5 (constant) 
Cpw= 1.0 (constant)
Mw = 34.24 lbs (gallons water needed for strike: 4.28 gallons at 8 lbs per      
     gallon) (The 4.28 gallons is from the grain ratio times the total grain)
Mm = 12.88 lbs (of malt)
Tw = ?
Tm = 75 F (room temp)
Tf = 152 F (mash temp)

After a little cranking (and a homebrew) I got: Tw = 166F 

Thanks to all who responded.

Wes Clement, Brew Bayou


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:29:59 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Diastatic Power and Wheat Beers

Greetings all...I've been doing some reading about malt recently, and I
am slightly perplexed by some of the statements I have encountered
regarding diastatic power.  Descriptions of malts and their diastatic
power are frequently accompanied by statements like "able to convert its
own starch and up to a 15 or 20% adjunct level" (DWC Belgian Pils being
the example here).  This being said, a few weeks ago I made a Belgian
Wit using the standard 50% DWC Pils malt and 50% unmalted wheat berries,
and while my efficiency was a little bit lower than usual, the enzymes
in the pils malt were clearly able to convert a lot more than a 15 or
20% adjunct level.  Does anybody have any thoughts on this discrepancy
between theory and practise?  

Mark Tomusiak, Boulder, Colorado.

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:04:51 +500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Pondering the imponderable; Part XXVII of MCMXCVII

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....

Today, my friend and I were discussing threads that would not die, 
when I accidentally popped my stopper into the carboy and the waiting 
wort. Undaunted, I plunged my arm, up to the elbow into the wort 
before I realized that my arm can't fit into the neck. Besides, it 
wasn't sanitized.

Later, after having put another stopper on, and oxygenating by
pouring into the carboy from a fifty-foot drop tower and  adding
hydrogen peroxide and chromium discs, I judged the FAN to be
inadequate, so I sprinkled some rapidly dividing amphibian skin
cells over the surface. Satisfied, I popped my smack-pack, opened it
and dumped the yeast in. Fifteen and a half seconds later, I
realized that nothing was happening. To save the batch, I dumped in
a sachet of whitbread dry yeast. For safety's sake, I threw in an
additional fifteen gallons of Ready-To-Pitch in a corn sugar and
sucrose starter. Will the mold on top contribute any off flavors?

To keep the fermentation temperature down, I surrounded the fermenter 
with bottles of Ice beer. To prevent the temperature from dropping 
too rapidly, I put a 22 oz bottle of Cave Creek Chili Beer in the 
room, too.

Later, I returned to find the airlock embedded in the sheetrock
above the fermenter, and splooge covering the floor. In the bottom
of the fermenter sat 20 inches of yeast cake! With the stopper
buried on the bottom. The ferment was over in 2 hours and fifteen
minutes. Why was the lag time so long? 

Is it safe to pitch my next batch over this yeast cake? Or should I
remove the stopper first? By the way the batch, A Belgian
Pumpernickel Hefe-Stouten Scotch Ale, turned out great, though a bit
"catty". Through a combination of sopping up with a flannel shirt
and a vacuum pump equipped with a silly straw, we were able to
collect enough from the floor to half fill a 50 ml flask. Though it
will probably be over-carbonated, I expect this will be quite  a
treat. (Note that the filtering effect of the flannel has probably
eliminated the need for any finings, but I combed a cat's hair
backwards, then tossed the cat in to attract any haze compounds.) 

But: is my stopper ruined?

:-)

A little boredom can be a dangerous thing....

Flames to 1-800-SWIG-BUD, as usual...
See ya!
Pat Babcock
pbabcock at oeonline.com

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:35:08 EDT
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Re: Gunk Bucket ...

"Gunk Bucket" ,as mentioned, is a goofy brand name for a large round
bucket, usually with rope handles, and holds between 19-25 gal.  They are
just about  the perfect height for carboy or plastic fermenter.  They
range in price between $6.99-$14.99, depending on quality, where you buy
it, and wether you happen to catch it on sale.  You can custom make this
system by going to a carwash or some other place that has 55 gal pastic
drums.(no hazardous waste preferred)  These could cost the same or less. 
Cut to height preference, and clean it out.  By the way, these things are
marvelous for those messy cleaning & sanitizing jobs.  Depending on size,
they'll hold 4-6 gals. worth of bottles.  They have saved my Kitchen many
a mess.  I'm posting this in HBD in case anybody else is curious.

Here's to enjoying the fruits (and malts) of one's labors.  (Long sip)

Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com


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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:28:42 -0500
From: Brad Manbeck <bmanbeck at isd.net>
Subject: Response to Partial Mash and HSA

I posed a question regarding partial mashing and HSA a couple of HBDs =
ago. I proposed a method that involved straining the partial mash =
through a strainer as a way to sparge. My question was will HSA be a =
problem at this point in the brewing  process or do I only need to be =
concerned after the boil?
Here are some summaries (4 to be exact) from fellow HBDers that =
responded to my question. Thanks to all who responded.
****

1.	The point is to not splash your mash too much.  Just treat it gently, =
and don't stir so vigorously that you get air in it.  The water that you =
sparge with is mostly de-oxygenated.  Some handling of the mash is =
unavoidable.

Tom Penn
Bordentown, NJ

****

2.	You should be a little careful of the HSA during the sparge process. =
I use the sparge water kettle on the stove, the bottle bucket with grain =
bag on a metal folding chair, and the brewkettle on the floor. There is =
about a foot and a half drop from the spigot of the bottling bucket to =
the bottom of the kettle. I just took a length of our standard clear =
plastic tubing and cut it to the needed length. Don't make it to long or =
as the kettle fills up the resistance from the liquid in the kettle will =
slow the flow coming from the container above it. So run the tube down =
to about an inch or two above the bottom of the kettle. I think HSA is =
pretty rare so don't get paranoid about it. If you see some bubbles and =
frothing don't worry.=20
From:	John Goldthwaite [SMTP:ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu]

****

3.	I have written several posts in HBD over the years about HSA during =
sparging, and I can report that there has been significant improvement =
in my beers when I eliminated HSA during sparging and mashing.  On the =
other hand, the largest effect of HSA is to reduce the beer's shelf =
life-if your batch will be consumed quickly, you will likely not notice =
the more rapid staling (it won't have happned yet by the time the batch =
is gone).

Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX
75083
ddraper at utdallas.edu  Home page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper
Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
****

4.	>>> Now my main question is do I need to be concerned with hot side =
aeration =3D at this point, or do you only need to be concerned with hot =
side =3D aeration after the boil is finished? <<<

Yes and no. If your just a bit careful, you'll be fine. When you dough =
in, don't whip the grains and the water so as to fold in air. When you =
sparge, see if you can get the strainer adjusted so the wort doesn't =
splash to much. when transfering from pot to pot, pour carefully, maybe =
have someone help you and pour down the side of the pan (if your really =
retentive, you could rack/siphon).
Cheers,
Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net)
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the water"

****

What I have gathered is as follows. My proposed procedure is defiently =
not ideal. It would be best to avoid splashing and areating the wort =
while hot. A better proposed method would be to rig up a mashing =
scenario on a smaller scale for a partial mash. One that didn't areate =
the hot wort.
So what will I do? I don't have a powerful enough stove or the space in =
my residence to go to a full 6 gal boil. So for now I will stay with =
extract/specialty grain batches. Eventually I will get to all-grain. By =
that time I'll have some much knowledge I'll have to go back and ask all =
the basic question all over again. (Ha Ha)
Thanks again
Brad Manbeck
bmanbeck at isd.net



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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:36:58 -0700
From: Troy Hojel <hojel at flash.net>
Subject: Wanted: hop rhizomes

I may have missed the growing season, but I would like to try to grow
some hops anyway.  Does anyone know of any rhizomes (Goldings) for
sale?  The only source I could find on the net is sold out of most
varieties.

TIA,

Troy Hojel

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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:54:09 +0000
From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm at hooked.net>
Subject: Thanks to all (re: controlling fermentation temp)

Just want to drop a quite note to all in the HBD and in 
rec.crafts.brewing who replied to my question about controlling the 
fermentation temperature of my beer.

Luckily, my IPA has ranged from 70-72, with the exception of one day 
of 74 this week. High, but not huge!

Have to try the evaporation method, as most suggested. Who knows, 
maybe I'll be making a lager this summer after all!!

Later,


Robert Marshall
robertjm at hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm/beerbook.htm
- ------
"They who drink beer will think beer."
     Washington Irving - (1783-1859)

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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:27:48 -0700
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Subject: NHC and water testing

I've been away for a few weeks and was wondering if the NHC results from
Portland have been posted yet? I couldn't find them when I searched the
archives.

I'm moving to Montana in a month (no dental floss jokes please!) into a
house with well water. I'd like to have the water tested for brewing
related parameters but the local labs want a fortune to do the analysis. I
vaguely remember a discussion about this in past HBD's. Is there a national
lab or HB- related lab that will test my water for less than the price of a
Vollrath kettle?


Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Grangeville, Idaho



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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:02:26 -0700
From: Brewers Beer Gear <brewers at abac.com>
Subject: Ferm temp troubles

Robert Marshall writes:

[Judges said:] "...watch fermentation temperature."...
I ferment in a basement which fluctuates between 65-74 degrees 
generally. Can anyone make any suggestions on how I might be able to 
control this better and keep it in the low to mid 60s at most? 
Obviously I could buy a fridge, but I'm looking for a cheaper 
alternative.

Alex Kohrt responds:
	
	Robert,
		Before you go fiddling with your fermentation temp, you might want to
try a yeast strain that will manage to produce a cleaner beer even at
higher ferm temps.
I would be curious to know what strain(s) you have been using and what,
more specifically, the judges' comments were; i.e. why they are making
this suggestion. Too estery? Too much diacetyl? Anyway, I highly
recommend Whitelabs Pitchable Liquid California Ale Yeast. It is about
the most tolerant strain of high ferm temps that we know of around here.
If you are brand loyal, the old standby Wyeast #1056 is a close second.
At the bare minimum, use liquid yeast if you can, since it is generally
much cleaner (in terms of bug content) than dry yeast. That way at least
you know that all your fermentation flavor by-products come from the
yeast and not something else. If you want to read about Whitelabs
yeast...http://www.brewgear.com/whitelabs.htm.

	Furthermore, if this doesn't solve your problem, just get a plastic tub
big enough to put your fermentor in, and keep it filled with ice water.
Put a fermometer or some such device on your fermentor (above the water
level but below the beer level) so you can monitor the temp and try to
keep it relatively stable; don't add too much ice at once because a
change in ferm temp of more than about 5 or 6 degrees F can affect the
yeast performance and the finished beer flavor in an undesireable
fashion. Two or three ice additions per day should do it. At least do
this for primary fermentation since this is where the bulk of the ferm
flavor by-products are produced. I've had good luck with this technique
for Scotch Ales and Steam-style Beers. Good luck.

Alex

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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:40:33 -0500
From: Nikki Rogers <paleale at colint.com>
Subject: Nitrogen carbonation

I'm in the process of setting up a nitrogen/CO2 mix for stouts. But I
have a few questions about carbonation. Do I carbonate with co2 and just
dispense it with the mixed gases, or do I use the mixed gases from the
start? I have a Guiness tap so what pressure should I use? Any help
would be appreciated. 

- -- 
Nikki Rogers
paleale at colint.com
ICQ #1232842



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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:36:44 -0700
From: Brewers Beer Gear <brewers at brewgear.com>
Subject: Sulfuric Acid + Salt as ingredients

In response to Hector Landaeta's post, HBD #2427:

	I am curious as to whether the "salt" that your colleague is referring
to is gypsum. All of the hardeners we use in powdered form are
technically salts. Gypsum is almost always the bulk of the salt that is
added to a brew if not the only one added. That is the only water
hardener I can imagine being used in that quantity. NaCl (table salt) is
rarely used and when it is it is used in very small (relative to the
other salts) quantities. I don't know of any breweries that add NaCl to
their brews.  Even in the kettles at A-B in St. Louis (50-100 bbl or so,
don't remember exactly) they were only adding a few pounds of gypsum. I
don't believe that it would make much sense to be adding 20 pounds of
table salt to a brew in even the largest of brewhouses. However, I have
never tried Polar and don't know anything about them - maybe it's a
salty beer (just joking, but you get the point) My suggestion: don't use
it in your homebrewing. But if you want to try, go for it (I have!) but
be conservative. Also, it really only makes practical sense to use at
all in grain brewing, as does the acid addition which I am about to
discuss in the next paragraph.

	As far as the food-grade sulfuric acid: somewhat uncommon, but not
unheard of. Most brewers who acidify this way use fg phosphoric or
lactic to acidify the sparge water and/or the mash, but some use
sulfuric. This is more commonly the practice with pilsners since there
are no dark malts to contribute acidity to the mash. Sounds weird, but
it is actually a safe practice and helps primarily with preventing
(undesirable) polyphenol extraction from the malt and sometimes with
starch conversion too (ie pilsners). Usually gypsum addition to the mash
is sufficient to get the pH into the correct range. Funny thing about
all this is that traditional German brewing would not advocate adding
either salts or acid to a brew; an acid rest would be a more
style-appropriate practice in order to let the lactic acid bacteria
naturally present in the malt acidify the mash without violating
Rheinheitsgebot. If the water was hard enough it might not be necessary
to treat it at all but most breweries do anyway.

Salud,
	Alex Kohrt

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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 08:11:14 +0700
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at mail.chattanooga.net>
Subject: Stirring wort- increased hop utilization

Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU> posted:

>In private email Glenn informed me... he makes sure to stir in his hops.
>Anyway, time for more data!

I've only done one boil with a new powered stirrer in the boiler.  The
stirrer runs through the entire boil and post-boil chilling.  The brew had
much more hop bitterness than previous similar but non-stirred batches.

c.d. pritchard   cdp at mail.chattanooga.net 
http://caladan.chattanooga.net/~cdp/index.html


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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:30:39 -0400
From: dsabin at visi.net
Subject: 2 Liter Coke Bottles

I want to try bottling using 2 liter Coke bottles.  Several concerns:

1)  How much headspace should I leave for proper conditioning?
2)  When I start drinking the beer, should I squeeze the bottle
    to force the air out and recap, or does it make a big difference?

I know those plastic bottles tend to not be good for long term storage,
but I imagine the longest I'd have beer in one after 2 weeks of 
conditioning is maybe a month.  Would this pose a problem?

Thanks for the help.
Dan

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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:58:21 -0500
From: "Robert DeNeefe" <rdeneefe at compassnet.com>
Subject: chest freezer taps

I have a chest freezer that I plan on attaching a tap tower to for
dispensing from kegs.  Since I'm not really very handy when it comes to
building things, I wanted to get any advice from anyone who had already
done this.  I'll need to drill four screw holes in the lid to attach the
tower to, and I think I can manage this with a standard drill bit.  I also
plan on bracing the underside of the lid with some plywood since the lid is
rather thin metal.  Is this neccessary?  Then I need a big hole to pass the
hoses through.  I plan on making it fairly large so the inside of my tower
stays cool also.  What have others used for making this hole?  In general,
if anyone who has already done this wants to share their experience with
me, I'm very open to all suggestions.

 Robert
 Sugar Land, TX

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