---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  oxidation of spirits/Triple/bitterness/hop growing/sparks/trub/gauges (korz)
  Japanese Beetle Blues (RKING)
  Pressure Cooker Decoction - retro (David Johnson)
  Green Glass ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Which GOTT cooler to buy? ("Kenneth A. Lee")
  Homer, Antarctica ("Penn, Thomas")
  RE: grain dust / kahlua (Brian Bliss)
  MicroBrewing 101 ("Sandow, Matthew")
  Re: Decoction Theories Put To Test (Part 1) (Tuula Pietila)
  Re: Decoction Theories Put To Test (Part 2) (Tuula Pietila)
  RIM's stuck mash (Evan Kraus)
  Subject: Jap. Beetles and Hop Plants (703)695-0552" <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
  Re: Kalamazoo Brewing Tour, Fluoride water (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Wort canning (Now that botulism is dead) (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Whitbread Dried Yeast (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: RIMS (hollen)
  Now that's hoppy (Jason Henning)
  Marga Measurements, ("David R. Burley")
  Two Dogs question (Brad McMahon)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:47:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: oxidation of spirits/Triple/bitterness/hop growing/sparks/trub/gauges

Brian writes:
>Why is it that distilled spirits do not have an oxidation problem?  Why can
>you keep vodka and scotch etc... in a bottle in the cabinet for years and
>not have the alcohol get oxidized?  Or, does it?  I thought of this after
>shaking the vodka bottle that I use for sanitation, airlocks, etc...  What
>about wine?  It seems not to be a problem for wine either, but I don't know
>(care) much about that.  This is probably a simple question for some of
>you, but I can't figure it out.  Isn't it the alcohol that is oxidized in
>stale beer?

I believe that's a lot of the staleness, yes.  I can't answer the question
regarding the distilled spirits, but I do know that wine will oxidise
quite badly.  Vac-u-vin is a product that sucks the air out of the heaspace
of a wine bottle.  You can also buy small canisters of nitrogen which are
meant to displace the air before re-sealing a bottle of wine.  I've never
been a fan of distilled spirits, so I can't tell you from personal experience
if there's a similar problem with them, but intuitively, I would have to say
yes.

***
>Trippels.

There's two "b's" in Dubbel, but only one "p" in Tripel.  Sorry... pet peave.

***
Massimo writes (regarding hop bitterness as a function of attenuation):
>under - many belgian ales, and at lower ratios for example some 
>doppelbock which are very much on the malty side (EKU 28 is 1125 OG and 
>only 25 IBU). 

Ahh, but alcohol is bitter and in high-alcohol beers some of the bitterness
comes from hops and some from the alcohol... doesn't it?  Similarly,
dark malts add some bitterness so you need to consider that too (although
I believe you mentioned it in passing later in your post).

>So in conclusion if I try to balance the hops and I expect a 75% app. 
>attenuation, I would try to get my IBU at about - or just above - a half 
>of the OG, and adjust the result if I expect a low or high attenuation. 

Depends on the style.  For Duesseldorfer Altbiers, I shoot for 1.050 OG
and 50 IBUs with about 65% Apparent Attenuation.

***
Bradley writes:
>generally look unhappy.  In fact, some of them along the thickest part of 
>the stem, very near the bottom, have completely fallen off.  There are some 
>brown patches, too, and all of my hops (I have four this year)  show some 
>indications of insect damage (i.e., tiny holes taken out of the leaves), 
>particularly near the ground.  The upper part of the plant looks fine so 
>far, but I'm worried that this problem will spread and ultimately kill the 
>plant.

I can't help you with the bugs, although I had a little luck with some
soap-based insectacide a few years ago.  If the leaves begin to turn light
green between the veins and then yellow, while the veins are still greenish,
I can help you with that: magnesium deficiency.  I put a couple of teaspoons
of Epsom salts ($2.00 for 4 pounds at Walgreens) on each plant every few
weeks.  Also, are you giving them enough water?  I put 6 gallons of water
on each plant per day!  I wound a soaker hose around each hill and ran
it with an automatic timer.  I put a measuring cup under the hose and
figured out gallons-per-foot-per-minute and the rest of the math was easy.

***
C.D. writes:
>bad news: the energy of a spark required to ingite such a cloud (.035 J) is
>pretty low.  Gravel and metal in a mill can generate this much energy as can
>a discharge of static electricity (e.g. from a belt and pulley or the flow
>of grain itself. <snip>

You forgot the obvious: the sparks from the motor brushes!  I mill outdoors.
 
Also:
>haven't a clue, but, IMHO, watching the clumps churn in the primary is much
>more entertaining than 95% of what's on network TV.  YMMV!

I agree, which is why I have cable and use a 135F protein rest with
DeWolf-Cosyns Pale Ale and Pils malts ;^).

***
Lee writes:
>    Now, much more importantly, they are eating my hop leaves! "Using Hops"
>nor "Growing Your Own Hops" mentions anything about the JB being a hop
>problem. Last year was the initial one for my plants and they were only 8

My yard is blessed to *not* have Japanese Beetles.  I have heard that if
you don't have a lot of them, crushing them by hand is probably the best
solution.  One thing that has been posted here that if you use JB traps
*DON'T* put them near the hops... put them across the yard... otherwise
they will only *attract* more of them to your hops.

***
Charley writes:
>I don't understand the need for the 2nd guage. The second guage measure's 
>pressure in the c02 bottle which is pretty much a constant (800 psi?) until 
>the tank goes empty and then drops like a rock. Pretty useless. I paid an 
>extra $9 for the second guage and all it does is get in the way.

I've been saying that on HBD for 8 years!  I lent my tank to a friend and
it came back with one of the gauges dented.  Of course you know (thank's
to Murphy's law) which one it was: the low-pressure one!

***
Mark writes:
>how do you stick a twelve (or fifteen) -foot hop pole in the ground without it
>falling over?  do you stand on a 10 foot ladder with a 16 pound sledgehammer
>and flail away (and break your neck)?  

I got a few 2-foot pieces of 2" (I think) galvanised pipe, put on a cap,
and pounded them into the ground about 18".  I then removed the cap, drilled
a hole, inserted the pole (see below), and screwed a screw into the wood.

>also, where can you get a twelve or fifteen foot hop pole?

I bought some handrail, pounded a couple dozen nails into them for the
hops to grip, painted with clear varnish and attached a couple of strings
to it.  I allow two bines up the pole and two more up each of two strings.
I've surrounded the poles with rabbit fencing because the hops come out
pretty early.  By the time they are 3-feet high, there's plenty else for
the rabbits and deer to eat, so they leave the hops alone.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date:    1 Jul 1997 16:58:45 EST
From: <RKING at VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Japanese Beetle Blues

Lee: I know what you are going through. The little creeps are
busy destroying my beautiful vegetable garden and my remaining
hop plant. I blasted the buggers today with SEVIN, but I don't
know what else to do. I am usually an organic gardener, but I
haven't found anything else that works (Sabadilla is my main
organic spray, but it doesn't seem to do much against them). I've
heard of something called Malathian, which is not organic, that
is supposed to work, but I haven't succombed yet.

Best wishes,

Richard King
rlking at marsh.vinu.edu
http://rking.vinu.edu


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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:35:21 -0700
From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Pressure Cooker Decoction - retro

Brewers,
	Sometimes I have to let an idea simmer for awhile before I can put 
it into a clear thought. Back when there was a discussion about 
pressure-decocting, I thought "there's something that might work in a 
partial mash recipe." (Please feel free to page down if it sounds too 
weird). It seems to me that in partial mashing, the brewer has to get the 
most out of a smaller amount of grain to give the greatest boost to the 
final product. Also, the amount of grain I typically use approximates what 
(my impression) many are using in their decoctions. I picture myself doing 
this as follows: using about 3 lbs of grain add 1.5 gals of 140 deg water. 
This usually settles out about 120 deg. Hold for about 15-30 minutes. Then 
I pull out ALL the grains (I use a grain bag), rinse the grains with 140 
deg water, and transfer to  a stainless steel pot in the pressure cooker 
and cook under 15 lbs of pressure for 20-40 mins while holding the "mash" 
at 140 deg. Then I transfer the "decoction" back to the "mash" and hold at 
150 deg until conversion. I then rinse the grains with 170 deg water and 
check again for conversion.
	Does this sound plausible?
	If so, then are there styles that benefit more than others from 
decoction? Are there specific grains that benefit more from decoction? Are 
there grains that should not be decocted? Is my beer ruined?
	Dave Johnson


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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 22:47:07 -0400
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <DINGASM at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Green Glass

Can anyone explain why green glass does not provide sunlight protection
for homebrew? I know it has to do with lack of pasterization but what
component of light is harmful to the beer?
- -- 
Michael E. Dingas (DINGASM at worldnet.att.net)

Surnames: DINGAS/TOWNSEND, BARBUTO/DELLAPA, CARSON/COMPHER, GOOD/HESS
Regions : MA, PA, VA, Calabria

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:07:49 -0600
From: "Kenneth A. Lee" <kenlee at ibm.net>
Subject: Which GOTT cooler to buy?

I would like to start ALL-Grain brewing and would like some advice!  I have
saved enough money to purchase a GOTT/Rubbermaid cooler to begin with
single infusion mashes.  Now the questions.  I am using 5 gallon Carboys
for primary and secondary fermentation, so should I purchase the 5 gallon
or the 10 gallon cooler.  Are there advantages or disadvantages to either
one.  Any advice on my first batch?  What should I look out for.  What has
worked for you in the past for great batches?

Thanks

Kenneth Lee
kenlee at ibm.net

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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:15:58 -0400
From: "Penn, Thomas" <penn#m#_thomas at msgw.vf.lmco.com>
Subject: Homer, Antarctica

The Wall Street Journal today had an article on the strange lingo that =
has developed among researchers in Antarctica.  With such a desolate =
setting and extreme isolation from the outside world, they make up words =
to fit their circumstances.  One such word was "Homer", for homebrewed =
beer.  Did Homer Simpson factor into this?  My brain made the connection. =
 The article also said that some of these folks are expert homebrewers, =
with their product being preferred over commercial brews (duhh).  Are =
there any of you Homer makers on the HBD?  If so, can you give us some =
anecdotes on the struggles you face?  Any styles or recipes that have =
evolved?  I'm sure you don't worry much about light-struck beer or wort =
chiller!

Here's to Homer!

Tom Penn
Bordentown, NJ

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 23:49:57 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: RE: grain dust / kahlua


> the density of grain dust required for an explosion is THICK - 55 g / m^3

that's .055 g / liter - not very thick by my standards.

- ---------

> how do I make kahlua beer?

do you want to make kahlua, or do you want to make beer?

For coffee beer, take your favorite stout recipe, and add 1/2 - 1 lb of
coffee post boil after you have chilled it to 150F.   Do not boil the
coffee, and do not add it too hot.  Of course, if you want it to be more
kahlua-ish, cut way back on the hops.  It still won't really taste like
kahlua much.  Perhaps you could try adding some vanilla or vanilla extract.
(I wonder if oils in vanilla beans might affect head retention, though.)

For real kahlua, make up 2 1/2 gal of the strongest coffe you can -
use, say, 5-7 lb of fresh ground coffee.  Do not let the water get too
hot, or you will get the same tannin extraction that happens with barley
grains when sparging too hot.  Most coffee makers use too hot of water,
but people don't notice because they drink the stuff so hot, or adulterate
it with so much cream that you can't taste it.  watch your temp. 150-160
is great.  regular coffee brewing temps are way too high.  Try brewing a
cup of coffe that tastes good cold.

Anyway, once you've done that, add 5 lbs of corn or cane sugar, dissolve,
and cool to room temperature.  mix with 2 1/2 gal of vodka.  Some people
say that brandy produces a mellower product quicker.  Either add 2-4 oz
of REAL vanilla and bottle, or put a vanilla bean in each bottled gallong
(cut the bean lengthwise).

Let it age at least a few weeks, and decant off any remaining coffee grounds.

 - I've never tried the real vanilla beans, but fake vanilla extract is
  not acceptable.

 - watch your brewing temperature as closely as you would while brewing beer.

it's easy and quick, and costs half as much as kahlua.  BTW, the brand-name
coffee liquer kahlua has a very aggressive vanilla profile, whereas tia
maria and some of the cheaper brands are more coffee-flavored.

bb


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:53:00 +1000
From: "Sandow, Matthew" <MSandow at nibucorp.telstra.com.au>
Subject: MicroBrewing 101

I have the opportunity to take 6 months off work and am seriously
thinking about learning the art of brewing on a micro scale. Bearing
mind my home brew efforts so far have been restricted to extract brewing
and a number of meads etc I decided to go whole hog.

I have been trying to find a brew school in Australia but have been
unsuccessful - question does anyone out there know of a school where I
can become an accredited brewer?

cheers

Matthew

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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:23:49 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Tuula Pietila <tupietil at cc.helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Decoction Theories Put To Test (Part 1)


Hello - 

Since it's been quite slow here recently I thought I'd numb you all with
overlong rambling about decoction. This is in reply to Rob Kienle (HBD
#2446), Scott Murman (#2447), Herr Ing. Hubert Hanghofer in (#2449) and
George de Piro (#2450). I had to divide this into 2 parts. 

Herr Ing. Hanghofer wrote: "On the other hand however, one must keep an
eye on traditional roots, otherwise things get verry involved and prevent
homebrewers from using decoction techniques." Scott wrote: "A lot of the
traditional methods had to overcome the logistics of dealing with large
volumes of thermally challenged grain and water."

Logistically decoction is the most complex mashing method requiring the
most complex mashing equipment. I think a lot of the traditional methods,
especially decoction, were developed to overcome the problems with
traditional malts and lack of thermometers and other technology to
reliably and consistently control the elaborate temperature programs
required to mash these malts. Decoction mashing is a method in which the
temperature profile of the mash is controlled consistently with volume
measurements, not temperature measurements. 

Traditional lager malts were under-modified and lower in diastatic power
than modern malts. The long beta-glucanase and protein rests typical of
triple decoction were needed for traditional lager malts, but are
redundent with modern malts. Long saccharification rests were needed
because of the low diastatic power of the malt, slow gelatinisation
because of the under-modification and because some of the amylases were
denatured in the decoctions before saccharification. 

Brewing is a combination of raw materials, equipment and technique
(process) and a brewer can't change one without affecting the others.
Brewers who stick to traditional mashing methods for tradition's sake
should also use traditional malt, traditional equipment and they should
shy away from thermometers, pure cultured yeast, chlorine and iodophor
sanitisers, water treatment, electric appliances etc. I find it incoherent
to keep one piece of the puzzle and change everything else. It's like
driving your car and enjoying your car stereos, power steering and
comfortable suspension and pulling it around with a horse for tradition's
sake. Malts have changed so maybe the process should be changed. There is
also nothing wrong with changing the process to better suit homebrewing
equipment.

If you do enjoy historical brewing, I think you should select a time
period to brew from, like "I'll make a 1890 pilsener with the raw
materials and techniques of that time." Otherwise we'll be reading posts
from Egyptians writing in and complaining about the newfangled decoction
methods of the ever-so-trendy Germanic people of the north and telling us
how in the time of the pharaohs... 

So the point is: Modern malts are made for short infusion mashes, so why
not take the mash through a short infusion program and then boil it, then
get rid of the starch haze by force cooling the mash down to dextrinizing
temp and adding amylase. The amylase can be in the form of thin mash
extracted before the boil. This 60-70-100-70 method, which I described in
my post in HBD #2407, has the benefits of both mashing methods: the
control of infusion and the taste and yield of decoction. I received no
comments on the method itself :-( but did get one response in private
e-mail (Hi Chris!). 

My Webster's dictionary defines decoct as "1: to extract the flavor of by
boiling 2: boil down, concentrate". I realise that Webster's isn't rated
very high in brewing literature, but it does tell us the origin of the
name for the mashing method and that "decoct" is not a word used
exclusively in brewing. It also helps us (at least me - and I often need
help) to recognise the core of decoction mashing, which is the boiling of
the grains. It is what causes the taste and yield differences compared
with infusion mashing.  

I know and fully accept that brewers use "decoction" as a term describing
the method for raising the temperature of the mash and "decoct" as a
portion of the mash, which is extracted from the main mash, boiled and
added back. The problem is that this narrow definition leads to the
thinking that the core of decoction mashing is raising the heat of the
mash and that the heat of the boiling decoct has to be used to raise the
temperature of the mash. In the 60-70-100-70 program it is not so: the
decoct is cooled after the boil. The heat of the decoct is only partially
used to raise the temperature of the mash, excess heat is either wasted or
used to heat sparge water. I think this is one of the advantages of
homebrewing: you can waste malt in no-sparge brewing, energy in decoction
mashing, water in wort chilling and a whole lifetime planning stupid new
mashing methods and ranting about their benefits and still make good beer
cheaply and have fun during the process. 

Timo Jukka in Helsinki, Finland


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:25:10 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Tuula Pietila <tupietil at cc.helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Decoction Theories Put To Test (Part 2)


Hello again - 

George de Piro (HBD #2450) ponders about the degree of conversion needed
in the decoct to fuel the Maillard reaction. Probably the sugar content of
the decoct is just one more parameter you can use to control the flavor
profile of the beer. If you want to increase yield but don't want to
darken your wort, try to skip saccharification temperatures. I don't worry
about that because I use my 60-70-100-70 method to get the Maillard
products and if I don't have sugars in the mash at the start of the boil,
the yummification (tech term) of the mash is one of my least problems...
Let me put it another way: using this method you have a very large amount
of sugars (especially simple sugars) in the boil, so you might want to cut
the boil time down and save time. You can also cut down on crystal malts.

Herr Ing. Huthofer wrote: "...going to 75C with a normal-mash decoction
(homogeneous, neither thin nor thick) will cause unconverted starch to be
added to converted mash. But you needn't worry, due to a-Amylases there is
much of enzymatic activity left at 75C." 

Yes, I agree. I'll change it to the 60-70-100-75 mash schedule with the
added benefit of combining the two mashes in the lauter tun for the final
a-amylase rest. Recirculation can be started immediately or after the
grain bed has settled and time is saved. In this case you have to know the
masses of the mashes so you can calculate and set their temperatures to
get 75C after combining them. 

Herr Ing. Huthofer asked: "Question: so what's the pain with decoction?"
and also commented: "It's an ideal method for beginners."

Answer: all the additional work and hassle compared with infusion. (Duh!)
Also: If I were starting all-grain brewing again, I would start with
single infusion. You can use single infusion even with modern
highly-modified pilsner malts and make decent beers, even lagers.

Scott: "Anyway, I just wanted to comment that there is another way of
playing this decoction game if you're not bound to tradition.  The idea is
to perform a single decoction, but to do it as a mini-mash which you start
before your main mash."

The method Scott describes is called (American) double mashing, although
he makes the mini-mash with malt. Usually this mini-mash is partially
dextrinized and boiled in the cereal cooker and consists of rice or corn
and about 10% of the malt bill. Scott also calls this mini-mash an
"un-decoction", which is not correct, it is a decoction.

Scott says: "This method has two main advantages.  First, you have more
control over how much grain you are boiling, and hence have better control
over how much of a temperature increase you'll get when adding it to the
main mash."  

Grain has only about 40% of the heat content of an equivalent mass of
water at an equivalent temp, so the amount of water used in this mini mash
is far more important than the grain in controlling the temperature
increase. This also explains why thick decoctions are faster to heat to
boiling and cool down to dextrinizing temps in the 60-70-100-75 program.
It might also explain why a lot of people take too small decocts in
traditional decoction mashing and undershoot their target temperature. 

Scott says: "The second benefit is that your main mash doesn't have to sit
at a single temperature for an extreme amount of time. These seem to be
the two main complaints about decoction mashing.  The other complaint is
that decoctions take a long time."  

Both of these problems are solved in the 60-70-100-75 program.

Scott's attention wanders: "Just think about those big, buxom, blonde
German women sweating over a wooden paddle, stirring the hot mash in days
of yore."

I don't know what kind of films you're into, Scott, but this sounds like
the opening scene of one of the fine foreign films (in this case German)
you find in the backroom of the video store... err...a friend of mine told
me that there are such films...yeah, that's it, a friend of mine... 

Matt Gadow in HBD #2452 tells about his full-mash decoction experience.
This is the same method I've been talking about, only with slightly
different temp profile: Matt used 53-68-100 (128-154-212 dF). Next time,
Matt, extract some thin mash into another container before the boil, after
the boil cool the mash down to 75 (167 dF) with an immersion chiller or
water bath, add the thin mash with the enzymes and start recirculation.
This will get rid of the starch haze. 

Timo Jukka still in Helsinki, Finland



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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 08:08:31 -0400
From: Evan Kraus <ekraus at avana.net>
Subject: RIM's stuck mash

> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:46:29 +0500
> From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
> Subject: Re: RIMS
>
> Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca> laments about
> his RIMS always sticking.
>
> > I plan on eventually drilling some copper tubing for a return
> > manifold, but I have bigger problems with the recirculation.
>
> My personal opinion is that drilled copper manifolds for RIMS
> returned wort might have a tendency to get clogged with husks, etc.

I agree the copper manifold with drilled holes will definitely give many
problems but making slits in the copper with a hacksawwill increase the
open area and help alleviate the stuck mash. But if U really want to
avoid problems then the perf stainless
screen is the way to go.

> > When mashing 10 - 20 lbs of grain, I underlet with hot water, mix
> > in grains and water, let settle 10 - 15 min (usually at 50 C),
> > then *slowly* start pumping. Stuck recirculations all the time.
>
> The *only* time I ever had a stuck mash in my RIMS was when I did a
> low temp rest WITHOUT recirculating.  The finely ground particles of
> grain apparently settled out of the grain bed, through the false

The only times I have stuck mashes these days is when the malt is to
finely ground. One other problem is if the pump isnot controlled U can
compact the mash to the point that circulation is not possible. To
alleviate these problems I only
run the pump at max speed when I go to the next temp rest. Then when the
set point is reached I cut the speed to
less than half. I also have an adjustable height wort return and when I
first mash in the height is adjusted to the middle
of the grain bed this keeps the majority of the mash continually mixing.

I have several procedures that I use for mashing in, depending on the
mash schedule and beer I am making.
Most of the time I heat the water and the mix 1/2 the grain bill in,
mixing thoroughly with a wooden paddle.
Other times I under let the grain especially when its a huge beer i.e..
30lbs for a 10 gal batch.

- --
Evan Kraus
Evan Kraus INC.
Phone & Fax (404) 713-1111
Email: ekraus at avana.net
http://www.avana.net/~ekraus/



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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 08:35:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Art McGregor (703)695-0552" <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Subject: Jap. Beetles and Hop Plants

Hi Everyone,

Lee Carpenter asked about Hops and Jap. Beetles.
I grew hops for three years and decided it was too much trouble for the amount
of hops harvested when compared to the cost of buying a pound of hops in bulk. 
But while I did grow them, I had a lot of problems with bugs, and I thought I
should pass on some info on bug control. 
I live in Northern Virginia, near DC, and we have lots of Japanese Beatles, and
they _LOVE_ hops.  Last year I sprayed the hops with Liquid Sevin, and It
helped to keep the beatles off, but caused an even bigger problem -- SPIDER
MITES -- they really tore up the plants.  After searching the web I found the
following at the Department of Entomology, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and
State University under the "Spider Mites Factsheet PUBLICATION 444-221 x 1991:
 
> Most insecticides are not effective on mites and some, especially carbaryl
> (Sevin), result in increased mite damage by killing their natural enemies.
  ^^^^^^^
> Use a miticide as suggested in Virginia Pest Management Guides, available
> through your local Extension Agent. Always read the label before applying
> any pesticide.

Additional searchers on hops found this at the University of Florida (IFAS)
Cooperative Extension Service:

>   Oct 1993     INSECT CONTROL IN MINOR VEGETABLE CROPS          MINO-023
>            Dr. Freddie A. Johnson, Extension Entomologist
>                                    Hops
>  Cythion  (malathion)
> *Diazinon  (diazinon)
>  Dipel  (B.t.)
>  Javelin (B.t.)
>  Kelthane  (dicofol)
>  Omite (propargite)
> *Telone II  (1,3-dichloropropene)
> *Telone C-17  (1,3-dichloropropene + chloropicrin)
>  Vapam  (metam-sodium)
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  An asterisk (*) denotes a restricted use material (requires State of
>  Florida permit to purchase and use insecticide).
>
>  Trade names are followed by the generic or common chemical name indicated
>  by parentheses (  ).  There may be one to numerous trade names for each
>  generic name.  Some generic names may also be used as trade name, i.e.,
>  Ethion (ethion).
 
So it appears that Malathion, which is readily available at home centers, is
approved for use on hops, at least in the State of Florida, so hopefully would
be ok in Virginia, and elsewhere.

Hope this is of some help to HBD.
Hoppy Brewing :^)

Art McGregor(mcgregap at acq.osd.mil)



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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:37:34 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Kalamazoo Brewing Tour, Fluoride water

In Homebrew Digest #2453 (July 02, 1997), Eric Fouch (Efouch at steelcase.com)
wrote:

>So, Jeff, maybe you're more tactful than me, sexier, or maybe you got that
>brewer fired who helped you out on that Oberon clone, but I came back with
>very little useful information

Eric, I think you just got a coy tour guide who also really didn't know
much.  I've had guides like that at other breweries, both big
(Hudepohl-Schoenling, now owned by Jim Koch/Sam  Adams) and small (Stevens
Point, for one, and a dozen micros).  I think they hire people as tour
guides who know nothing about brewing.  We know more about brewing than
they, and when we ask questions they don't know, a number of responses are
possible, depending on their whim or personality.  Maybe your guide felt he
needed to cover his ignorance with coyness.  Others frankly admit their
ignorance.  It certainly is frustrating.  Many places just want to show you
the bottling line.

I'm sure the Kalamazoo brewer I spoke to on the phone didn't know who I
was, but I've had maybe three tours of the brewery over the years with
Larry Bell himself (back when it was kinda him and another guy or two and
more recently because I've known Larry some ten years or so through the Ann
Arbor Brewers Guild, although we're not tight or anything) and he's always
been very forthcoming.  Last year Spencer Thomas and I interviewed Larry
for Midwest Brewing News (how's that article coming, Spencer?), and we got
to see the whole place, but they obviously couldn't do that for the masses.
We didn't ask anything as specific as I did of the brewer on the phone, but
we certainly got answers to what we asked, so I don't think the secrecy is
official policy.  I'd guess that real specific information is confidential,
though.

"Terry Tegner" <tegbrew at aztek.co.za> wrote:

>Hi all, we have a government that feels everybody needs more Fluoride in
>their system and I would like to know from the experts out there, how this
>will effect our beer production. Will an activated carbon filter do the job
>or do we not have to worry. As a sideline, we cannot by non-iodised salt
>anymore either. Seems our minister of health has this thing for Halogens.

I'm certainly not an expert, but I can confidently say that the 1-2 ppm Fl
typically added made no difference in my beer when I lived in the city, and
the benefits were great.  My children are now grown and have never had a
single tooth cavity or filling!  When we moved to the country with a well,
they were old enough that the dentist felt that fluoride toothpaste would
be sufficient, so he didn't need to apply fluoride treatment to their
teeth.  That is far more expensive and less effective than fluoridated
water.  Here in the States back in the Fifties, fluoride opponents argued
that fluoridization was a communist plot (like everything else) and that it
would have horrible effects.  Even if it didn't, the communists just wanted
the fluoridating equipment in place in every water treatment plant in the
country so that when they were ready to take over, they could co-opt the
equipment to put secret mind control chemicals in our water!

Iodized salt has just about eliminated goiter as a public health problem,
too.  It used to be common in areas with low iodine in the soil.  The
"Thumb" area of Michigan was one such "goiter belt."

I'd say, "Relax, don't worry, have a home brew."

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:17:22 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Wort canning (Now that botulism is dead) 

>>>>> "Gary" == Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:

    Gary> (If this stuff is not sterilized of even
    Gary> the most rabid botulism cell after an hour plus of rolling
    Gary> boil, we haven't got a prayer.) 

The problem with botulism, and obviously it needs reiterating, is that
the *spores* are not killed by boiling.  Once the wort is canned,
cool, and anaerobic, then the spores can "hatch" into toxin-producing
botulism cells.  You may still be safe if you've hopped your wort, or
if it's acidic enough to keep the botulism bacteria from growing.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:22:07 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Whitbread Dried Yeast

The "YeastLab" dried yeasts are produced by Lallemand.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 07:33:13 PDT
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: RIMS

>> Keith Royster writes:

KR> Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca> laments about
KR> his RIMS always sticking. 

>> I plan on eventually drilling some copper tubing for a return
>> manifold, but I have bigger problems with the recirculation.

KR> My personal opinion is that drilled copper manifolds for RIMS
KR> returned wort might have a tendency to get clogged with husks,
KR> etc.  You might want to consider other designs that will allow any
KR> grains that make it into your plumbing to get pumped through to
KR> the top of your grain bed without clogging your manifold.  My
KR> design for the return wort distribution manifold is based on a
KR> similar design by Dion Hollenbeck and is made solely out of 1/2"
KR> copper pipe with open ends that allows for grain particles to
KR> easily pass through. I have a photo of my manifold located at the
KR> address below for my RIMS system.

Well, Keith, while it may be your opinion, it is my EXPERIENCE!
Slotted and/or drilled return manifolds are grain catchers and a pain
in the ass!!!  That is precisely why I built the kind that you refer
to.  Had I known in advance what a pain the slotted manifold would be,
and how easy to build my "H" shaped design was to build, I would have
built it right off.  But a lot of this hobby is about learning the
hard way.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California



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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:48:01 -0700
From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net>
Subject: Now that's hoppy

Hello Friends- 
 
I would like to 'add' the acronym HATT?AC? in reference to the 
HBD mantra, "Has anyone tried this? Any comments?" 
 
I was show many buddy how I designed my spreadsheet to calculate 
a recipe. We were running through an IPA example since we'd get 
to do a big hop schedule. I explained (for the hundredth time) 
how bittering, aroma, flavor and dry hops work and their 
contributions to bittering. He then asks something like, "With an 
IPA, why not get all of the bittering from the aroma and flavor 
additions and not use any bitter hops?" 
 
With such a stupid question, I replied, "There's more beer in the 
freezer, try the Bostick Ale." I really said," No reason I guess, 
let's see what happens."  
 
We played with a 5g batch with 12 lbs of pale when it became 
obvious a 10 gallon batch would offer just that many more hop 
additions. So double the pale, but wait, why not do like Rouge, 
add a handful of everything. So: 
 
16 lb pale ale 
2 lb 10L crystal 
2 lb Honey 
2 lb Munich 
1 lb Vienna 
 
We decided on even 1 ounce additions and again, a handful of 
everything. We came up with this schedule, using Tinseth's 
numbers, and a few guesses at AA%: 
 
20 minutes left in the boil (u% - 12.8) 
 Cascades 5.8 AA% 
 EKG 7.0 
 Northern Brewers 9.4 
 
15 min left in the boil (u% - 10.5) 
 Cascades 5.8 
 Centennial 7.0 
 
10 min left in the boil (u% - 7.7) 
 Cascades 5.8 
 Chinook 13.5 
 Fuggles 4.6 
 Mt. Hood 3.0 
 Northern Brewers 9.4 
 Willamette 4.7 
 
5 min left in the boil (u% - 4.2) 
 Cascades 5.8 
 Chinook 13.5 
 Fuggles 4.6 
 Mt. Hood 3.0 
 Saaz 3.3 
 
Steep 
 Centennial 7.0 
 EKG 7.0 
 Saaz 3.3 
 Willamette 4.0 
 
Dry 
 Centennial 7.0 
 Chinook 13.5 
 EKG 7.0 
 Mt. Hood 3.0 
 Saaz 3.3 
 
Yhea, that's 25 ounces for 65 IBU's. This is our hop schedule 
until we get the hops bought and know the actual aa%. We'll 
probably brew next weekend. HATT? AC? 
 
- --- 
 
Trying to figure out how much beer is in your keg? Leave the door 
open for awhile, it'll 'sweat' up to the beer level. Found this 
out through discovery. I took my co2 bottle loose to get it 
refilled. Left the freezer boor open for no reason. After about a 
3 hour round trip of errands, I found out just how much beer I 
had on hand! <insert Homer Simpson wave file here> 

Cheers,
Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net)
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the water"

"Tastes like chicken" - Mike Tyson


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:32:38 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Marga Measurements,

Brewsters:

As I have commented in the past, one of the advantages of the Marga Mill =
(
no affiliation, yadda, yadda)  is the ability to adjust the nip between t=
he
rollers continuously, unlike most unadjustable or incrementally adjustabl=
e =

"real" malt mills supplied to the homebrew trade. Using a series of
multiple passes at varying nips allows the production of commercial,
multi-roll quality, milled malt with this mill.   With the ability to
adjust the nip comes the need to know how to use this additional paramete=
r
in milling malt properly.   Chris Cooper has also motorized his Marga Mil=
l
and asks for details on how to measure the nip ( gap) between the rollers=

when doing multiple pass milling.  Since it varies with the grain type an=
d
source ( British barley malt grains tend to be fatter than other malts , =
in
general, wheat, rye, etc. etc.) I will explain my procedure first.

1) Close the nip completely
2) Fill the hopper
3) Start the motor
4) Open the nip until the grain just begins to feed at a good rate. (
around 0.075-0.080 in. nip for pale malt measured, when the motor is OFF,=

with a spark plug feeler gauge)  If you check the grain after this first
step you will find that the grain has been cracked into several ( say 6-8=
 )
pieces, but many pieces are still in the husk and no fine flour is
produced. The husks are still whole.
5) Fill the hopper with the cracked grain from step 4) =

6) Repeat the adjustment process as above. Set the nip so it now further
cracks the grain and separates it from the husk, which remain whole. In a=
ll
cases in my experience, this final setting is about 0.060 - 0.065 in.,
although I have successfully used 0.050 - 0.055 in. in my early experimen=
ts
to emulate commercial practice. I didn't find it necessary to go to this
extreme as it lengthened the milling time a little if I went from 0.080 t=
o
0.055 directly and didn't really give me a substantial improvement in
yield.  Perhaps a third pass at this smaller setting ( which is BTW the
first notch past "2") after the pass at 0.060-0.065 would be appropriate =
to
thoroughly emulate a six-roll mill and to get that extra extract point or=

two in which I am not interested, but commercial operators might be.

Use only the two roller settings ( check the instruction book), as engagi=
ng
the third roller produces flour (great for bread making with unusual
grains, as AlK points out) and will give you a stuck sparge, especially
with difficult grains. I put a piece of masking tape on the side of the
mill and marked various nip openings measured with the feeler gauge. With=

the motor off,  I set the gauge to, say, 0.080 in., place the feelers
between the rollers tangential to the roller surface and close the roller=
s
down onto the feelers firmly, but not so as to grip the feelers so tightl=
y
that I can't remove it. Although the surface of the rollers is knurled (a=

smooth surface on these small diameter rollers will not feed the grains, =
as
I learned when I tried to convert my noodle maker), the width of the gaug=
e
permits reproducible measurements.  Marking settings on the masking tape =
at
various nip openings allows me to reproducibly mill the various grains.  =
I
anchor the knob with duct tape at the various settings during milling,
although you could drill additional stop holes, as you have done, once yo=
u
decide on the proper settings and if you wish to give up the continuously=

variable feature.

The beauty of this multiple pass method is that it is faster overall than=
 a
single pass at the smaller nip setting, you get very little flour and the=

husks remain whole just like in the commercial 4 or 6 roll mills.  Spargi=
ng
is fast ( you control the rate - not the grain bed) and extraction
efficiency is high ( in the 90s)

You may want use an inverted plastic gallon milk jug with the bottom cut
out as the hopper. Tape it to the hopper provided.  Also, I found I got
faster results when I widened and lengthened the bottom slot on the hoppe=
r
provided.  Use plastic sheeting taped so as to reduce the dust escaping
during milling.  Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK  =


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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:01:14 +1100
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Two Dogs question

>I recently saw on the list a few days ago, a throw together recipe for a
>brewed lemon drink. Two Dogs is made under license here (Oz) not 10 minutes
>from where I work. They politely refused my queries of its makeup. Anyway,
>if anyone out there has any input to give me as well as the list it would
>be great!

I can't help you in regards to exactly how Two Dogs is manufactured,
but I do have a pretty good homebrew recipe for the Original Two Dogs.
The commercial recipe has changed recently - it no longer contains
the zest.
If you are interested in the recipe I will post it here for
all and sundry to try.

For those who don't know, Two Dogs Alcoholic Lemonade is exactly
what it says it is, an alcoholic lemonade made from real lemons
like traditional lemonade not the clear fizzy stuff like 7-Up and
Sprite. It is lightly carbonated and is a superb summer drink of 
around 4% alc/vol (from memory). Originally brewed in Adelaide, 
South Australia it is extremely popular in Australia and in the U.K.,
particularly amongst young people.
It has spawned a whole range of popular alcoholic sodas,
like DNA, Subzero and XLR8, catering in the main to the 
nightclub scene. I am unsure of the availablity of Two Dogs in
North America, I think it is available on limited import. 
Perhaps someone over there can track it down.


- --
Brad McMahon		"I don't hate anyone, at least
ph.	0411 501 518	 not for more than 48 minutes,	
brad at sa.apana.org.au	 barring overtime." C. Barkley
Email me for PGP public key.



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---