HOMEBREW Digest #2500 Fri 05 September 1997

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  WHY do I get this flavor. ("Gerardo Godoy")
  Entire Butt ("Michel J. Brown")
  ford brew II (Richard Byrnes)
  Re: Propane burner in basement (Steve Scott)
  Good Pubs in San Diego (Matt Koch)
  Need a beer -- quick! (KROONEY)
  Traveling (Spencer W Thomas)
  BT PU Article typo? (Charles Burns)
  Finally some data on 122F, ("David R. Burley")
  Pumpkins and sanitizing (Greg Young)
  Rest temperatures (Aaaarrrrggghhh!) and US vs. German Spalt (Matthew Arnold)
  Lager Temps (OCaball299)
  Re: Christmas beer (guym)
  Dead mouse in Demijohn -- still OK? ("Alan McKay")
  koelsch yeast (Lou Heavner)
  re:Burley-gram (135F rest) / BJCP Poorly worded studyguide and "modification levels" (Charley Burns)
  Electric heater elements (Dana Edgell)
  FWH/diacetyl/Guinness/diastatic extracts/yellowing hops/Blue Moon (korz)
  HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ("Aesoph, Mike")
  sugars/end of conversion/isinglass vs. polyclar/kraeusening/yeast washing/IPA age/122F rest/bottle priming (korz)
  122 Degree F Rest (Paul Niebergall)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:38:08 -0400 From: "Gerardo Godoy" <panasurf at panama.phoenix.net> Subject: WHY do I get this flavor. I have been brewing only for 3 months and all my beers get this "very light" medicin flavor...it is not THAT bad and if I really cool the bottles it is hardly noticed.....is my beer getting infected all the time?? I clean everything like a hospital before I start and I am using "BOTTLED" water so I won't get any chlorine........Can anyone suggest something, I am beginning to get frustrated and very angry. Thanks Gerardo The Panama Jungle Brewery Ltd. can mail directly to: panasurf at panama.phoenix.net Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:37:59 -0700 From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com> Subject: Entire Butt As a Porter affecianado, I brew one or two a month, and have read = repeatedly that several author's refer to Porter as "Entire Butt" beer. = Since we have been going over linguistics of late, I'm curious of what = gives with this moniker. My latest batch of Brown Porter I've christened = "Firkin Butt Porter" after my favorite beer engine (may Wat Dabney smile = upon us all), so if anyone has a clue, please email me, or post to the = HBD anything you know about "Entire Butt" beer. Hope this post doesn't = come *too* anally ;^) Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. Brewer, Physician, Patriot, and Scholar Mad Monk Nano Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: 04 Sep 1997 07:45:06 -0400 From: Richard Byrnes <rbyrnes2 at ford.com> Subject: ford brew II Jason henning takes some shots at Ford, Q: What does Ford REALLY stand for? A: Everyone in Dearborn knows, First On Race Day! :-) Yet over 145 members REALLY REALLY know (including the esteemed janitor, Pat Babcock!) Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen Michigans largest homebrew club so careful Jason! Regards,_Rich Byrnes Jr B&AO Pre-Production F-Series Analyst \\\|/// phone #(313)323-2613, fax #390-4520_______o000_(.) (.)_000o rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com (_) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:15:54 -0400 From: sscott at lightlink.com (Steve Scott) Subject: Re: Propane burner in basement >Would it be acceptable to use a propane burner in the basemen t >if I have two large windows open in addition a large window fan >removing any fumes and steam which may be created. > >I believe the general problem with propane is preventing a >build up of propane gas on the bottom of the floor. If I have >a fan constantly circulating the air and removing it out doors >is using the burner in my basement acceptable. Many people use propane appliances (furnaces, stoves, dryers). Occasionally one of these houses goes up very quickly. Propane is something to have an extremely healthy respect for. Much like having a pan of gasoline in your basement tightly covered. Not a problem at all as long as the fumes don't get out. That said, sure, you can use it in your basement. I would recommend checking the hose and all connections with soapy water in a spray bottle every time you use it. Better yet, come up with a hard piped arrangement that can stay put. ** The problem with the average family today is that it's=20 impossible to support it and the government on one income. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:36:21 -0400 From: Matt Koch <MKoch at STSSystems.com> Subject: Good Pubs in San Diego Greetings all I will be in San Diego at the end of the month. Any suggestions on where to find a good pint and a decent meal would be greatly appreciated. Matt Koch, Montreal Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:04:00 -0400 From: KROONEY at genre.com Subject: Need a beer -- quick! I am having a party 12 days after I return from vacation. Is there any way I can brew a batch of homebrew when I return in time to serve at the party or would I be wasting my time? I am considering buying a corny keg setup, so I could force carbonate if that would help. If so, are there any particular styles that finish more quickly? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:34:04 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Traveling Will be in Princeton, NJ Sept 18-20. Would like to meet fellow brewers and hoist a few. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 08:18 PDT From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns) Subject: BT PU Article typo? I finally got around to reading the latest BT article on the history of Pilsner Urquell. On page 56 it describes their process (triple decoction) and notes that the starch conversion temp is 143F. This seems about 10 degrees low to me. Reading in Ray Daniels book, he lists 153F as the typical conversion temp for a Bohemian Pilsner. Is the 143F correct due to the fact that PU makes its own malt and does it in some way that makes 143F work right for them? If I was to make a pu clone this weekend using DWC Pilsner malt, I'd plan on using a 122-140-153F schedule. Comments? Charley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:09:27 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Finally some data on 122F, Brewsters: Thanks to Charlie Rich we have some data on which we can begin to understand the effect of 122F hold on head formation and chill haze clarification and the complexity to doing the experiments. His point that this is only one piece of data with a problem with the standard are well taken, but nevertheless appreciated. I like the idea that this test may be developed into a method of evaluating malts. My concern is that this does not evaluate the heading properties of beers with CO2 in the foam. As he points out in his opening comments - it may nevertheless provide a useful indication. Why did you sparge the malt after the 100F hold?? This is not a normal procedure in wort preparation. Maybe I don't understand the experiment, but the way I read it you removed the grain after a 100F hold and worked only with the liquids? Minor comment from my own experience, I do not hold at 100F except on rare occasions and only with Lager/ Pilsner/six-row malts = in concert with gummy malts or adjuncts like rye,wheat or barley. My own experiences = are for a mash in of 122F directly, 15 minute hold, raise to 135F at 2 deg/min followed by a hold at 135F. Like Charlie I believe it is important to solubilize the enzymes before entering into the saccharification step. 122F does that for me along with apparently reducing some those nasty chill haze proteins generated during malting. Measuring heading capabilites has always been a difficult thing, even with beers and not unhopped worts ( which Charlie measured). = Many pieces of equipment have been designed and none too successfully to my understanding, as "minor" surface properties (what kind of covering did you use for the testubes when you shook them, etc.) and components can affect this phenomenon = greatly. I'm not being critical of Charlie's technique, just pointing out this experiment can be fraught with inconsistencies due to apparently small things. As Charlie noted even the carry over of trub into his standard apparently produced a result which theory cannot explain based solely on the enzyme activity. How much the other results were affected by this kind of thing is unknown. More experience will help clarify this issue. At first I was tempted to suggest that another similar experiment be carried out measuring chill haze, but realized that this is a hopless wort and not a beer so this kind of examination would perhaps not be useful. Is it possible to do a hopped wort (maybe hop extract??) in which certain longer chain proteins will be precipitated as the hop/protein complex = and certain complexes also help in the head formation as is known to occur? - ---------------------------------------- The 40C hold (which I believe will do no good with higher kilned malts like Pale Ale) is apparently recommended for the = reduction of the gums ( which will reduce haze and the viscosity of the wort and improve the recovery of sugars in fast sparge situations) = in the mash, however, it also will allow for acid formation from lactic bacteria and from phosphatases in low-kilned malts. Themorphilic bacteria like the lactobacillus love this temperature range. Even though = the optimum temperature for Phosphatases is 37C, it is still active at 40C.. For my Czech style lager I use a ( low-kilned = containing phosphatases) Pilsner malt and RO water with no mineral salts added. Being a less buffered situation, I do see a pH drop over an hour hold at this low temperature = contrary to Charlie's experience. Perhaps using higher kilned malts (like pale ale) and mineral containing water, Charlie has never seen this change. - --------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps we have a semantic problem in the area of malts modification. I submit that while the malt modification *use* profile may have changed in Germany as they moved away from decoction mashing to a hochkurzmaishen and other profiles, malts called Lager and Pilsner malts still are less modified than Pale Ale malts and require a protein related hold. I know of no good malt specification which provides such an indication as most are very insensitive to the protein profile. Degree of = modification is indicated by the length of the acrospire = ( soak a piece of malt from each type and compare = the freed acrospire to the grain length). Also the = hardness of the malt grain in the bite test is an indication of the degree of modification since the protein matrix provides the structure to the barley grain. Less high molecular weight protein provides = a softer grain. Pale Ale malts are mealy, Pilsner malts are hard. = I suggest you go to the HB store and bite malts = of various types and prove it to yourself. = - --------------------------------------------------------- Charlie also says that he didn't understand my attempt to extract information from a table of = protein MW content versus malt types and mashing conditions. In a second table the generation of short chain proteins and amino acids actually went faster at 150F than at 120F for the first = half hour of the mash - generating a higher concentration of low Mw proteins at mashing temperatures than at protein hold temperatures, presumably because of the higher rate at 150F. Eventually the denaturization of the peptidase at 150F won out and the curve levelled off at 150F = but kept climbing at 120F. These curves crossed at about 1/2 hour or so. Well it was not meant to be definitive as I pointed out, but was an indication of the trends. I found it surprising = that a 20 minute hold at 120F apparently provided less LMW protein than the same hold at 150F. Modern = analysis methods would make short order of this = discussion. I keep hoping someone will provide real data and not opinion as I do not have access to this kind of data easliy. - ---------------------------------------------------- Sounds like both Charlie and I want to find the truth and no personal stuff. That's exactly what I want. I believe I only respond negatively to what I perceive are personal cracks not intended to elucidate anything. I believe all HBDers are on the same team with the = same interests with no need to lower the comment level to degrading personal commentary. I find that there is never a simple answer to anything, (As Rob Moline or was that Jethro? says - "the more I know about beer, = the more I need to know." I agree.) especially in brewing as there are many, many interacting parameters ( and as humans it is lucky if we can handle three - maybe four). Like others, I am not perfect no matter how hard I try. HBD = provides the opportunity to explore these many situations = and understand them more fully by discussion, point and counterpoint, in a mostly egoless environment for which I am grateful. Now back to the regular programming. - --------------------------------------------------------- Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:24:29 -0400 From: Greg_Young at saunderscollege.com (Greg Young) Subject: Pumpkins and sanitizing Howdy brewers-- Just a few questions: I'm about to do my 2nd pumpkin brew for the approaching autumn months, and I was looking for some suggestions from the homebrewing collective on the best way to incorporate the pumpkin into the beer. Last year I roasted 15 lbs. of fresh pumpkin, scooped out the flesh and put it into the mash (can you say messy?). The beer was great, but I didn't enough of the pumpkin flavor. I'm looking to try something different this year, but I don't know what. First of all, I'm going with the canned stuff this year (yes, I know: no preservatives). But, Should I put it in the boil? Steep it at the end? Put it directly into the primary? Secondary? Has anyone ever used a pumpkin extract, or know where to order it from? Any suggestions or past experiences would be appreciated. Also, on the sanitation note: If you have a five gallon bucket filled with a sanitizing liquid (i.e. diluted bleach solution, iodophor solution, etc...), will it "go bad" after a time? I'm just wondering if, instead of making a five- gallon batch of sanitizing solution every time I brew, could I just have a bucket of it on hand and use it again and again. Just wondering..... giddie-yup Greg Young Greg_Young at saunderscollege.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:09:18 GMT From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold) Subject: Rest temperatures (Aaaarrrrggghhh!) and US vs. German Spalt I the risk of being poked in the eye with a sharp stick, I would once again ask the following question: If I am mashing a pound or two of German or Belgian Munich malt for an Altbier partial-mash recipe, what would be the most advantageous mash schedule (all temps are in degrees Fahrenheit): 1) 122, 135, 155 2) 135, 155 3) 145, 158 4) 155 alone 5) Something else Basically I am looking for the simplest mash schedule that will give the Altbier the Munich "Germanic wonderfulness" I'm looking for without also giving me a big glass of starch haze. I've read the 122 or not 122 posts with interest, but I am having difficulty boiling down the discussion to determine an answer to my question. Also, does anyone know how favorable U.S.-grown Spalt hops compare to German-grown Spalt? I've noticed that German-grown tends to be in the 2.5-3% AA range, where as US-grown is closer to 5-6% AA. If I really want to use German Spalt (at 2.5% AA) as my main hop for this (like the gents in Duesseldorf do) would I be better off using a relatively neutral high alpha hop (a la Galena) as well? I can't see buying a half pound of Spalt just to try and get it up to decent bittering levels. Safety glasses on!, Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:28:33 -0400 (EDT) From: OCaball299 at aol.com Subject: Lager Temps To the all knowing collective... I'm sure this has come up in the past, but since I hadn't graduated to Lagers, I probably just blew by it. I'm interested in brewing a Lager SOON... It's my first and I am an Extract brewer. My question is how to feasibly maintain the 50-60 degree fermentation temp? Any usable suggestions is very much appreciated. TIA Omar Caballero Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 12:31:55 MDT From: guym at Exabyte.COM Subject: Re: Christmas beer Jeffrey C Lawrence wrote: > As my second year of brewing begins soon, I look forward to some of > the specialty beers that I can brew from extracts. This time I am > looking for a extract based Christmas beer. Jeffery, To put in a shameless plug, I have an old recipe in the Cat's Meow called "Christmas in Ireland" that I brewed from extracts in 1991 (*my* second year of brewing). It was one of those that received some barbs at the time because my comments were "I haven't tried it yet but it smells great". Let me say now that it was wonderful the first year (I brewed it in September), fantastic the second year, and beyond description the third year - by far the best Christmas beer I've tasted before or since IMHO (in its third year). It was stored cold from the time it was carbonated until it was consumed (~40 F, refrigerator temperature). I haven't brewed the exact recipe again (I've since moved on to all grain) but this year's Christmas brew will be an all grain shot at this very beer. I have built a cold box ala Byron Burch around an upright freezer and will ferment this one at around 65 - 68 F and condition it at 38 F. I will be doing 10 gallons (the original was a 5 gallon batch), bottling half, and kegging half. If you don't have access to the Cat's Meow, email me and I'll send you a copy of the recipe. No, I didn't enter it in any competitions (I've never - yet - entered a competition and it was bottled in Grolsch bottles the first time) but I will be using plain brown bottles for half this year, just in case. -- Guy McConnell /// Huntersville, NC /// guym at exabyte.com "There's damsels in distress out there and we've got all this beer..." Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:40:29 -0400 From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com> Subject: Dead mouse in Demijohn -- still OK? Hi folks, A friend gave me a 55litre demijohn that had a couple of dead mice in it. I've had the thing soaking in some pretty strong bleach solution for the last 5 days, and am wondering if I should use this for beer or not. A couple of the mice were only skeletons -- one was freshly dead. My instinct is to not use it, but if someone out there is certain I'll be fine, then maybe I will. thanks, -Alan - -- Alan McKay Nortel Enterprise Networks Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations PC Support Prime Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:00:14 -0500 From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner) Subject: koelsch yeast Greetings, I am planning to reprise a koelsch that I made last year which was very popular with friends and family. At that time, I didn't have a fridge and so it fermented at the high end of the suggested temp range (62 to 64 Deg F). Obviously, I didn't lager it either. WYeast 2565 is described as a hybrid yeast and I would like to try lagering it this time. Would anybody care to share speculation or experience regarding lagering temps with this yeast. I would like to lager for about a month and then bottle without adding a bottling yeast and so I am particularly interested in how well the yeast will condition after lagering. On another note, I am curious if anybody has used nutrasweet as an adjunct, maybe for an ESB. Is it fermentable? What is the affect of other stuff in the little blue packets? When should it be added? I know, I should just experiment, but with 3 toddler sized brewing assistants, running around, the spousal unit severly restricts my brewing time. Regards, Lou <lheavner at frmail.frco.com> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:50:00 -0700 From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us> Subject: re:Burley-gram (135F rest) / BJCP Poorly worded studyguide and "modification levels" Quoting Charles Rich in hbd#2499: [DB says his 10% wheat beer using short holds at 122F and 135 has a good head] No doubt 10% wheat has a good head, and would probably have better head if you could skip the 122F rest. I'd also that swear this is the first time you've endorsed a hold at 135 instead of breezing through it. [me] Last year when I was fooling around with decocting pale ale malt (a feat which i will never again waste my time with) Dave recommended the 135F rest prior / during decoction. After much discussion of MMWP and HMWP, what goes on at the maltster and what we get to do in the mash, I finally used the 135F rest in decocted porter (please don't sick the beer police on me). Well, it worked. It was a nice porter, but certainly not worth the effort of a decoction. Decent head, lots of body, used English (HB) malt. So, Dave has recommended the rest before (and it worked), but lets make sure when we talk about this stuff that we are CLEARLY defining the grain bill involved (for the most part we are and thats good). Now, sticking my neck out a little farther on the subject of the BJCP studyguide recommended mash rests. Dave Sapsis and I discussed this briefly offline (I've discussed with others too) and everyone is pretty much agreed that the studyguide needs a little updating. Not only to bring it up to date with current malts, but also to expand on its brevity (a little information can hurt more than no information). Steve Alexander and I also discussed the BJCP recommendations and his comments about 122/132f rests. I was confused about something he said that sounded like he conflicted within his own statements (he didn't, I was just assuming a few things). All of this had to do with "degree of modification" which Dave B also questioned in the BJCP guideline statement (50-75%). Here's my current understanding of what's going on with base malts: The facts are that when base malts are being created, a couple of major things are happening. First, degree of acrospire growth and then temperature and time during kilning. This is very oversimplified, but serves (i think) the purpose of breaking the definition of "modification" into two pieces (thanks to Steve A). The germination may determine how much starch/protein is created, but the kilning temperature and length will determine how much of what kind of enzymes (protein) are left in the malt. And this is critical to what temps are used in the mash. The higher temp and longer time of Pale Ale (vs 2row, lager, pale or pilsner) malt kilning gives us more starch, less protein (and less enzymes of course). Using the lower temp rests (122f or 132F) will further reduce the mmwp and lmwp in this Pale Ale malt (ie provide less head retention and less body). The Pale Ale malt however, is itself a confusing term because continental and american pale ale are (supposedly) less "modified" than malts from the UK. This leads me to decide that I should never rest the UK malts less than 135f and never for more than 15 minutes. The decoction I did (described above) mashed in at 135F and **immediately** pulled a 1/3 decoction which was completed within 20 minutes (pretty much wasted effort wasn't it). Armed with this knowledge, we can do experiments like C Rich did to confirm what we'll get at various temps with the malt we end up with. I say that somewhat with tongue-in-cheek becuase i'm fairly skeptical about what lables are on the bags of grain that I buy. I think the experiments might be a good idea for every bag of grain, regardless of what it might be advertised as. For those brewers that have the HB store crush the grains and only buy enough for 1 brew at a time, that will be tougher. These people will have to pretty much rely on the HB shop to get them good, accurate information (something I've had difficulty with in several shops I've been in - at least consistently). And where can I get a copy of the BT Market Guide? Does it have all the specifications in it that would answer these questions regarding starch and protein/enzyme content of malts available to homebrewers? Charley (looking forward to 2nd half of Jim Busch's article in BT) in N.Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 12:34:24 -0500 From: Dana Edgell <edgell at quantum-net.com> Subject: Electric heater elements For HBD RIMS & Electric brewers: 1) Is the reason that tinned electric heating elements shouldn't be used for a RIMS because of their high heating density or is the metal a factor? 2) Would theybe safe for a water only heater (Hot liquor tank heater)? 3) Would adjusting the pH of the sparge water in the HLT affect the use of the above heater element? 4) I have an auto-timer module from an electric coffee maker. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be marked with a safe power rating. Is there an easy way to determine this? 5) Does anyone know a good cheap source of electrically controlled valves or should I try to canibalize old dishwashers? Thanks, Dana Edgell - --------------------------------------------------------- Dana Edgell edgell at quantum-net.com http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:00:26 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: FWH/diacetyl/Guinness/diastatic extracts/yellowing hops/Blue Moon Well, I'm almost caught up in my reading HBD, and I've been queueing-up topics and deleting them when they got answered, so hopefully you don't mind my commenting on these rather old topics... Hubert writes: >First wort hoppings increase oxidation of hop oils and thus >(see below) provide hop aroma. Only use the best aroma hops >available to you. Perhaps it is true that first wort hopping (FWH) increases the oxidation of hop oils (I know that a measured amount of oxidation of hop oils is desirable, especially in "Noble" hops), but my experience with them has been that they add a small amount of hop aroma and a *HUGE* amount of hop flavour. I made the mistake of making a Bohemian Pilsner in which I put *all* the hops in as FWH and the resulting beer had overwhelming hop flavour and just a touch of hop aroma. It was also underbittered (tasted like about 30 IBUs although I had hopped for 40 IBUs assuming 30% utilization). *** John Penn writes: > In HBD 2478, the question of dicetyl using 1728 Wyeast came up. I tried >1728 and I even racked to a secondary deliberately dropping most of the batch >in order to aerate and increase dicetyl. Fermentation was about 70-75F and >the recipe was a scotch ale. The result was not much dicetyl. There were >some previous suggestions to getting dicetyl in previous HBDs, you might try a >search. But I don't think 1728 alone will do it. I think there is a London >le yeast that might produce more dicetyl than 1728. AlK or some of you other >more experienced brewers might have some good advice. This is exactly what I wrote to the original poster in direct email, except that I feel Wyeast #1084 (Irish Ale) is one of the strongest producers of diacetyl in the Wyeast line. Aeration *during* fermentation (yes, normally this is considered bad) will increase diacetyl production. Also, crashing the yeast (by quickly chilling the beer) or filtering shortly after fermentation, will remove most of the yeast from the beer and prevent them from reabsorbing the diacetyl which they ususally do (note that you need a yeast that doesn't make a lot of acetaldehyde because this too will not be reabsorbed and the beer will taste like green apples (like Budweiser)). *** Jacques writes: >According to Graham WHeeler's book " Brew classic European beers at home " >Guinness Foreign Extra Stout ( FES ) has the following specifications: >O.G. 1.073 >Alcohol content: 7.2% by volume >Bitterness 65 EBU >Color 200 EBC Ahh... but not all bottled Guinness is alike. This sounds like the Caribbean version. If memory serves, what we get in the US in bottles is 1.050 OG and 50 IBUs. *** Doug writes: >I am using Munton's amber dry malt extract, which my homebrew supply >owner *thinks* has very little diastatic power. Your HB supply owner should know for sure. Munton's dry all have nil diastatic power. The only two extracts that I know of that have diastatic power (i.e. the enzymes to convert starch to dextrins and sugars) are Edme Diastatic Malt Syrup (often called DMS) and Munton's makes one syrup that is diastatic, but it is labeled as such... I don't recall the exact name. *** Jay writes: >Leslie [some hop expert, I'm sorry, I cut that part of the post >away] said that if the plant experiences periods of dry along >with periods of wet, the older, lower leaves will turn yellow >and drop (he didn't explain why that is - can anyone here?). >He recommended that the best solution to this was to ensure >that the plants receive water on a daily basis, but warned >not to overwater. He said that a drip-irrigation system was >ideal for this and easy to do, even for the hobby-grower. This was not the case... I *had* set up a drip irrigation system and had been giving each plant 6 gallons of water every morning. The leaves began to turn yellow between the veins and started dying off from the bottom. I added Epsom Salts. They stopped turning yellow between the veins and dying off. A few weeks later, again, the yellowing began, so I added more Epsom Salts. Again, the plants stopped yellowing. >Leslie also said that shade (or not enough sun) will cause the >older, lower leaves to yellow in the same way. His explanation >was that the plant senses a decrease in sunlight and "thinks" >it does not need the leaves for photosynthesis, so it drops ><snip> My hop plants were indeed in too-shady a place, but the lower leaves were getting just as much light (if not more) than the upper leaves. >I mentioned the deal about adding magnesium-sulfate and he said >that if the yellowing was due to a chemical imbalance in the >soil, the entire plant would be affected, not just the lower, >older leaves. If I'm not mistaken, this phenomenon is not unique to hops and I believe that my general-purpose gardening book has the yellowing between the veins of the lower leaves as a symptom of insufficient magnesium. Check your GP gardening books. >I wonder if by applying the MgSO4 by the person that posted >about it, that you didn't just happen to water them a little >more thinking that it would get the MgSO4 into the ground As I said before, I had set up a soaker hose system. It was on a timer and the only variations could have been due to additional water from rain. Note also, that this same phenomenon was seen on my tomato and cucumber plants this year. I sprinkled some Epsom salts and the yellowing stopped. What yellowing had occured did not go back to green, but the plants did not get worse. Perhaps next year, I'll try to remember to put out some Epsom salts *early* in the season and see if they yellow at all. *** Graham posts email from Keith Villa, brewmaster of Blue Moon beers: >I ensure that Blue Moon ales >are made from only the highest quality 2-row malt, hops and spices. Hopefully they use unmalted wheat in the Witbier also, because the style calls for it. >The only adjunct we use is the real honey in Honey Blonde Ale. Honey is not an adjunct. "Adjuncts" are non-enzymatic starch sources, like raw wheat, potatoes, rice, corn, etc. >For example, Original Coors is an American >lager (read the AHA or GABF guidelines), and has a GABF gold medal to >prove that it is an excellent example of the style. Winning a ribbon at the GABF is not *proof* that a beer is even an average example of the style. Consider that a Samuel Adams product won once as an Altbier. Since we judges are human, we are limited by our senses and by the endurance of our tastebuds. No competition ribbon should be considered proof of stylistic adherence. Winning a competition simply means that a group of judges liked your beer better on that particular day. A different set of judges or a different day may have produced a different result. Competitions are crapshoots. One thing I'd like to add, however... when you win Best of Show, I think that's quite an acheivement. I've judged on quite a few BOS panels and have tasted many, many BOS beers. I've never tasted a BOS winner that was (in my opinion) anything short of *outstanding*. When you win BOS, you can be quite certain that the beer is an excellent example of the style. Back to the topic... I don't think that anyone said "Blue Moon beers are terrible." I believe that what was said was that the Blue Moon Wit is a "light" version of the style and that Celis and Hoegaarden versions (and Blanche de Brugge, and Blanche de Neige (sp?)...) are *better* examples of the style. Every post (as I recall) was polite except for one or two slamming people for saying something similar to the second sentence of this paragraph. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:46:25 -0400 From: "Aesoph, Mike" <aesoph at osi.sylvania.com> Subject: HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear All: I am safely at my new job!!!!!! Email address is aesoph at osi.sylvania.com I'll write more later, but only after working hours - I am very busy - and liking it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:09:55 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: sugars/end of conversion/isinglass vs. polyclar/kraeusening/yeast washing/IPA age/122F rest/bottle priming Here are a few more, sorry for the tardiness... Dave writes: >Grapes typically have an SG in the region of 1.1. They are the highest >sugar content fruit so expect other fruits to be less than this and more >like half of this. There is a table at The Brewery that gives the actual numbers, but bananas and litchis have more sugar by weight than grapes (although grapes used for Eiswein, which is not "ice brewed" but rather made from the grapes that are left till the first frost, are probably even higher). Cherries, actually, are not far from grapes. Check out the table... very useful. Also: >To really find the end of the conversion step, take a sample of the *bed* >including the wort and grain particles and heat it to boiling in the >microwave to free any starch. Do the iodine test on this liquid sample. = Actually, the celulose in the husks will always react with the starch. What I think Dave means is after heating, take a drop from the liquid part of the sample and test that. However, you could get a positive reaction from the liquid long after all of the *practically* available starch in the mash has been converted. The reason that decoction mashing is slightly more efficient (in terms of yield) than infusion mashing is because the boiling of the decoctions releases trapped starch. If you are doing an infusion mash, this starch simply isn't available to your liquor or enzymes. Boiling the sample can make some starch that is unavailable to your infusion mash react with the iodine, making you mash forever (or until you get tired of positive reactions). *** Marc writes: >Just wondering if I could get some input in regards to the use of >isinglass versus polyclar as a fining/clarifying agent. I just >recently kegged 2 separate batches and used both as kind of test >models. I used liquid isinglass (2 oz) in a German Lager and used >polyclar powder (1 pack/approx 1 tbls) in a IPA. I read up on both >of these agents in a number of reference books prior. According to >Greg Noonan's New Lager Brewing I understood isinglass to be somewhat >better in lager style beers, thus the choice in the above said keggings. Isinglass is primarily used to get yeast to flocculate although it does bring a few other things out of suspension (like some lipids). Polyclar will also help bring the yeast out of suspension a *little* but their purpose is really to remove polyphenols (aka tannins) from the beer. Isinglass is traditionally used in cask-conditioned Real Ales. It may be used in lagers, but it's certainly used much more in ales. *** Dave writes: >Tim Steffens asks what to do about no carbonation even when he has >carbonated with a priming sugar starter. I assume you let the yeast >pitched to that starter come to full "kraeusen" before bottling. I always= >add a tablespoon or so of malt extract as an energizer and provider of >nitrogen to this priming starter before I add the yeast and allow it to g= >et >fermenting in about 12 hours. Dave has posted this procedure before and I've commented on it before. I know Dave's quite a bright guy, so perhaps I was unclear as to why I feel this is an unreliable and unrecommended procedure. I'll try again: If you make up a "starter" for your priming sugar and simply allow it to come to "high kraeusen," you cannot be sure if 10%, 20%... maybe even 50% of your priming sugar has fermented out during this "starting" period. When professional brewers use kraeusen for priming, they measure the SG of the "starter" they are adding to the finished beer and *because they know the expected FG*, they can adjust the *volume* of kraeusen they add so they get the proper amount of carbonation. Simply letting the "starter" go for "about 12 hours" will result in variations in carbonation level. Put the starter in a warm place and use a particuarly vigorous yeast and you'll have only 10% of the priming sugar left after 12 hours! If it works for you Dave, great, but the only way I could see this working consistently is if you always use the *same* yeast strain, always store this "starter" at the *same* temperature, and always store it for pretty much the same amount of time. For the rest of us, I believe that we should use *proper* kraeusening technique (measuring the SG, knowing the FG, and adjusting the volume accordingly) OR (as I do) use boiled corn sugar or force carbonate. *** Dave also writes: >More than likely your infection source is somewhere else. If you are >reusing your yeast, wash it in a 1% Tartaric Acid (your HB store) and 50p= >pm >metabisulfite solution. Rinse it with sterile water and pitch to a >starter. This should clean up any lactobacillus from the yeast - your mos= >t >likely source. Of course you know that I'm going to point out that this will not kill *all* the lactobacillus and probably won't do anything to any wild yeasts you have in your yeast. Unless you live in Antartica or someother place without regular FedEx deliveries, just get new yeast when you suspect an infection. $10 worth of incredients and 4 to 8 hours of my time are more valuable than a package of Wyeast or YCKC slant. *** Martin writes: >I tasted David's IPA a few years back at a judging in Corvallis >Oregon. I found the beer too hoppy for the style. There was so much >bitterness >in it that you only wanted a small taste. Of course in a judging compared to >other less hoppy IPA's it was the best - but try to choke down a pint is >challenging! Now let the beer age for 9 months or longer (like the original >IPA's did on their way to India) and it is probably good to great, but 100 >IBU's >out of the fermenter is way too much! According to Thom Tomlinson's articles on IPAs, the trip from England to India was 3 months. *** Charles writes (quoting Dave): >> ... Stop for 15 -30 minutes >> at 122F then heat up to 155F and finish >> ... >> The soluble protein formed at 122F will >> provide the head you desire. > >It won't. This has been covered here before. The rest at 122F degrades >the proteins that contribute to heading, body and mouthfeel into >smaller, superfluous proteins that don't contribute. <snip> Actually, it breaks proteins down to amino acids and peptides (the building blocks of proteins). While it's true that they don't contribute to head retention and mouthfeel, they *can* contribute to flavour because beer made from wort that is excessive in amino acids is often high in fusel alcohols [MBS 2nd ed. p.601]. This could all be a moot point, however, if the proteolytic enzymes were denatured during malt production. Jim Busch has pointed this out, and this is what I had read in several places regarding Pale Ale malts, but then there was the poster who said that IBS has found a 122F rest to help with clarity on Pale Ale malt-based beers. *** Greg writes (regarding bottling a few and kegging the rest): >Is it best to put a three-pack's (or six-pack's) worth of beer >into a 'bottling bucket' and prime that together? or should I >just prime each bottle (I don't want any grenades)? or should I do something >else? If you can sanitize the sugar and measure it accurately, you can safely prime each bottle individually. If you can't you are better off "batch priming" the six-pack's worth, although you have to measure more carefully here again, because of the much smaller amount of priming sugar you will be using. I've done the former making up 250 ml of priming sugar solution of a known concentration, boiling it, and then distributing it into sanitized bottles with a sanitized pipette (10ml into each bottle). Worked perfectly. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:46:39 -0500 From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> Subject: 122 Degree F Rest HBD's, I think I understand the disputed benefits of a rest at 122 degrees F (to eliminate cloudy beer) for some malts, and I am not quite sure of the benefits of resting at 135 degrees F. Either way I am still confused. Recent discussion seems to be oriented toward the question of what these rests may do to your beer. I would like to approach the problem from the other side and find out what possible adverse effects my beer may suffer by not doing these rests. In other words - what is the worst that can happen if I do not rest at either 122 or 135 degrees F? Please do not write me or post saying that a rest at 122 degrees F may help reduce chill haze in some malt varieties. This is obvious from the recent posts. I have been pondering protein rests for many years now and suspect all home brewers struggle with this concept at some time or another. Historically, I have tried just about everything I could do to improve my beer, but now I am trying to simplify my brewing process and have lately been in a minimalist brewing mode (KISS brewing). Does this make sense? I used to say "I will try anything that might help, no matter how insignificant the results, as long as there is a slight improvement". Now I say "If I skip this step (process, ingredient, ect.), will it really hurt my beer". Any thoughts are appreciated, TIA, Paul Niebergall Return to table of contents
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