---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Keeping warm (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  newbie questions (LONG) ("MMC Richard A. Kappler")
  TY to Allergy Responders (William D Gladden )
  Koji (aquinn)
  RE: Jack's anagram ("Keith Royster")
  Gambrinus White (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  Temperature excursion during lager ferment ("Dave Draper")
  Re: Yeast (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: beer with mass appeal (Jeff Renner)
  hot side aeration (Thomas Kramer)
  Cheap chrome beer taps (John Wilkinson)
  Mills (Bill Giffin)
  Non Fermentation (Kent Campbell)
  Electric Elements (KennyEddy)
  Rubbermaid, dosage, plastics ("David R. Burley")
  Do NOT store Copper in bleach (verdigris thread) (John Palmer)
  RE:  Keeping Warm (HBD2603#16) (Tim.Watkins)
  To cover or not to cover..... (Greg Young)
  Source for MashMixer motors - Surplus Center (The GasFamily)
  Re: High Altitude Brewing Record (Scott Kaczorowski)
  Fixing my enamel pot ("C.W. Hudak")
  mass appeal beer, mixmasher (michael rose)
  Mixmasher (John Wilkinson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:29:20 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Keeping warm


Wow,  tonyw at Mass-USR.COM (Tony Willoughby) has too cold a fermentation!

Tony, a couple of thoughts.  Ken Schwartz has a "fermentation box" that is
posted on his web page.
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy/index.html

Check it out.  I made one recently and intend to make a lager this
Saturday.  I finally got a freezer to freeze ice jugs in.

How to keep it warm?  You seem to not want to use a lightbulb.  If it were
me, I'd consider using one of those little ceramic heaters.  You'd just
need a more precise temperature controller.  How about...geez, I can't
remember who made the homebrew temp controller.  Was it C.D. Pritchard?
Anyhow, I picked up the parts at Radio Shack as directed and put it
together.  My first project assembling something electronic (since a
"crystal" radio, years ago) and it worked on my first attempt.  Maybe
that's worth a shot.

Good luck

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI

P.S.  What about a yeast tolerant of lower temps, or a lager strain?



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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:14 -0500
From: "MMC Richard A. Kappler" <KAPPLERR at swos.navy.mil>
Subject: newbie questions (LONG)

Howdy folks, finally have a few questions I feel are worthy of your
time, but if they've been covered ad nauseum previously feel free to
reply privately or ignore. 1.  One of the reasons I got out of 
homebrewing back in the mid eighties, and one of the reasons I hate 
most micro brews, is that sort of sickly sweet ummmmm, well just icky 
aftertaste. I had somehow come to the opinion that this was from 
using corn sugar to prime, (though as an engineer with a good 
understand of chemistry and yeast activity, I realize this shouldn't 
make sense to me) so when I got back into brewing a few months ago, I 
demanded malt for priming instead of corn sugar.  No problems, no 
icky aftertaste, I'm not satisfied with what I'm brewing, but hey, 
that's part of the game isn't it?  Its still worlds better than what 
I can buy off the shelf IMHO.  A few batches ago, my supplier slipped 
in corn sugar vice my usual malt, and I figured what the hey, I'll 
try it.  That batch is a little sweeter than I expected, not 
so bad, but... opinions?

 2.  My brewing setup is a little primitive as of yet. Mostly I do 
partial grain brews, I have just added an 8 gallon pot for full boils 
and a wort chiller to my arsenal.  The question is re steeping 
(mashing?) temps for my grain.  The recipes I get from books or my 
supplier (yes, I'm still at that stage) almost all say steep grains 
for 30 minutes at 155 F.  I am beginning to understand the 
relationship between temp and starch conversion and enzyme 
production, BUT.  With my setup it is very nearly impossible to 
maintain exactly 155 F.  If I look away for even a moment, it jumps 
as high as 175 F.  From lurking on the list for quite some time, I 
get the impression this might actually be a good thing.  How better 
to control temps, and what temps to use?

 3.  I use two burners on my gas stove to heat/boil my wort.  I get 
some 'burning'  (carmelization?) on the bottom of the pot, very 
little, but its there.  Is this a bad thing?  I realize I can reduce 
the rate of temp increase when going from steep to boil, but should 
I, and that brings up question 4

 4.  After steeping the grains for 30 min, Most of the recipes I like 
say add extracts etc and boil for 1 hr.  Does time used to increase 
temp from 155 to boiling count? Are we talking a full rolling boil, 
gentle boil, what?

 5.  What I'm looking to brew is an equivalent of Wm Younger's Tartan 
Special with just a wee bit more body.  I'm getting close as I try 
various recipes, or more truthfully, understanding more of how 
various ingredients affect final taste, but one of things I love 
about Tartan Special when I was stationed in Scotland was how smooth 
it was.  I can't even begin to approach that.  Mine has a bit of a 
bite to it when it first hits the palette.  Is this aging?  What 
other factors affect that?

6.  Finally (for now), one of the ultimate goals to this whole 
process is that I have bought a rather large chunk of dirt to keep 
me occupied when I retire from military service, and would like to 
control the whole process from start to finish, ie grow my own 
barley, malt it etc.  Can anyone provide me with some references re 
growing barley, different varieties, and the mashing process?  I 
understand the basics, but want much more info.

Thanks

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:16:39 -0500
From: William D Gladden <W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US>
Subject:  TY to Allergy Responders

To all responders to my info. request re: allergic reaction to
beer,

Thanks very much for the e-mails.  I have passed them on to my
friend who plans to see a doctor in the near future and abstain
from alcohol consumption in the meantime.  Many mailers
reinforced our opinion that this is serious.  Hearing about
others with this reaction was also a comfort to my friend.  The
story of a head brewer who developed a yeast allergy definately
reinforced the "it could be worse" aspects of this as of yet
inexplicable health/quality-of-life complication. 

To any upset by a non brewing post, 

Thank you for not suggesting a cross post to alt-medical. 

Cheers,
Bill Gladden
W_Gladden at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US


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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:25:50 +0000
From: aquinn at postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Koji

For any sake brewers in the Dallas area, Koji is available at 
Kazy's Gourmet Shop, 9256 Markville (Greenville and 635 area) 
972-235-4831.  There may be other places but it's the only one that 
I've found and it saves the $6.00 shipping and handling charges.   In 
addition, its $2.00 cheaper per container than St. Pats of Austin.  

Tony

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:27:16 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: RE: Jack's anagram 

I REALLY enjoyed Charlie Scandrett's well thought out comparison of
RIMS and the MixMasher. However, I would like to comment on a few 
points...

> The control mechanisms for RIMS are "complicated" but very reliable
> and accurate, transisterised temperature controllers and solid state
> relays. 

Jack and others often site RIMS complexity as it's downfall, yet they
feel comfortable using a computer and the internet without
understanding fully how they work. If you had to build your own 
computer then there'd be a lot less people online.  Same goes 
for the RIMS temp controller. Luckily we don't have to build them 
from scratch like Rodney Morris did because companies like Omega 
Engineering (http://www.omega.com) sell devices call PIDs at 
reasonable prices that work even better than Rodney's controller.  If 
you can do some basic plumbing and house wiring, you can build a 
RIMS!

> If the basic principle of RIMS has long been used in many
> biochemical and food processes (including fermentation), why don't
> commercial brewers use it for mashing? I asked one and his
> unsubstantiated reply was that the excessive flushing by
> circulation had negative effects on polyphenol extraction and
> resulted in less stable beers.

My personal opinion is that this is another RIMS myth (momily!). 
Someone probably said, "Hey, if over sparging can cause polyphenol
extraction then a RIMS must really extract a lot of polyphenols
since it is constantly recirculating!"  Problem with this logic is
that it assumes that the physical recirculation is what extracts the
polyphenols when instead it is the change in pH during sparging
because of the thinning wort that extracts them.  Since the wort is
not thinning during RIMS recirculation there is no change in pH and
thus no (or VERY little) extraction of polyphenols.

No, the *real* reason you don't see RIMS in commercial production is
that you can't find a 15 foot tall, 100,000 watt hot water heating
element anywhere!  But seriously, a 10 gallon batch is pushing the
upper limit for a RIMS because anything larger would take too long
to boost temps using a typical RIMS heating element.

> The critical points in Mash Mixing are heat transfer, heat control 
> and oxidation and turbulence. 

I agree with Jack.  The MixMasher is no more or less prone to HSA
than a RIMS, if properly designed. If your RIMS splashes the
returned wort or sucks air into your plumbing you will have HSA. If
your MixMasher splashes and churns air as it mixes it will also
suffer from HSA.  However, I also question the true seriousness of
HSA as Jack does, but that's for another discussion.

In another post, Jack responds to Dion's comments about the MixMasher 
and RIMS...

DH> Given Jack's description, what it does NOT provide is the ability
DH> to walk away for the entire duration of the mash and be ensured
DH> that the temperature would be automatically maintained....

JS> Right but as I also mentioned, anyone taking the trouble to 
JS> design and build something like a RIMS in not likely to be 
JS> uninterested in watching it do its thing.  After all, if we 
JS> wanted automatic beer, we would go out and buy it.

People (including myself on my web page) keep referring to RIMS users
as having the ability to walk away from the process because it is
completely automatic in it's temp control. However, in all honesty,
Jack is right in that I do enjoy "watching it work."  However, what
my RIMS still does provide me that I don't see the MixMasher doing is 
the ability to completely watch and enjoy the process uninterrupted 
because I don't have to worry about watching my temps while turning a 
burner off and on. Just watch and marvel (and maybe adjust a 
ball-valve for flow control).

DH> the tradeoff is automatic temperature control and crystal clear
DH> wort ready for the kettle without manual vorluff.

JS> I still have a problem with this.  I guess I do not understand 
JS> what you mean by "manual vorluff" perhaps because I am missing 
JS> something in my understanding of RIMS. 

Jack appears to claim that with his EasyMasher he requires no manual 
recirculation (vorluff) when he begins sparging to obtain crystal 
clear wort.  While this may be true for Jack, it is not the case for 
most brewers that I have spoken with.  RIMS eliminates the need for 
this final recirculation because it has already been doing it for the 
entire process and so the wort is already crystal clear and ready for 
sparging.

In short, I think the MixMasher (or mash mixing) is a great 
alternative and I intend to include a link to Jack's page from my 
RIMS page.  They both have pros and cons and each will appeal to 
different brewers.  

PS- I should also mention that one thing a RIMS can easily be adapted 
for that a MixMasher can't is batch sparging (a great time saver) 
because of the existing pump and plumbing!

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
mailto:keith at ays.net

For information about the 1998 U.S.Open homebrew competition coming
this April, visit http://www.ays.net/brewmasters/

For info on my RIMS, visit http://www.ays.net/RIMS/

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:37:43 -0500
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: Gambrinus White

        
I just got a postcard from my mother who spent Christmas in the Czech
Republic; She spent alot of time in Prague and Pilz and writes "pilsener is
free with lunch but water costs money" My kind of place.  

She brought me back four bottles of Urquell and one of "Gambrinus White".
The Gambrinus Dark broke along the way.  Does anyone know what Gambrinus
White is?  She's in Atlanta and I'm in Boston, so it may be a while until I
try it.

Thanks,

Andrew Stavrolakis
andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu
************************************************************
Andrew J. Stavrolakis
Controller
LASPAU: Academic and Professional Programs for the Americas
25 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
phone:617-495-0543
fax:  617-495-8990
email:Andrew_Stavrolakis at harvard.edu
http://www.laspau.harvard.edu


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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:58:43 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Temperature excursion during lager ferment

Dear Friends,

Happy New Year to one and all.  Last month I brewed a pils type lager 
a few days before departing for sunny California for holiday family 
visits.  Upon my return, I found that the ground-fault interrupt on 
the wall socket where my brew fridge plugs in had tripped sometime 
during my absence, to my dismay.  Temperature inside the fridge was 
15 C / 59 F, up from the intended 10 C / 50 F, so it could have been 
worse.  The gravity upon finding this was 1030, down from the initial 
gravity of 1056.  From this, I am guessing that the interrupt failure 
occurred later rather than sooner, because the more vigorous 
fermentation in the initial stages would have provided heat, which 
would not have escaped from the fridge-- that's my theory anyway.  
Clearly it could have been worse.

Not surprisingly, this high-T "excursion" has resulted in some esters 
that I'd prefer not to have in the beer.  My question: can this be 
alleviated by extended lagering, or should I just proceed as normal, 
get a less-than-optimum result, and chalk it up to experience?

Thanks and cheers, 

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I can't be bought for a mere $3.50. ---Jeff Renner


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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:17:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:44:46 -0700
>From: "Dr. Dwight A Erickson" <colvillechiro at plix.com>
>Subject: Yeast
>
>If it's bad to leave beer and yeast together (past two weeks) in the
>primary
>fermenter (cause yeast breaks down = bad taste etc) why is it alright
>to
>have them together in the bottle after capping?

usually - if done correctly anyway... the volume of yeast per ml
of beer is well less in bottle conditioned beer, for one
500K to 1M cells/ml as opposed to 40M to 80M per ml in primary.

the yeast in the primary has "dirty" (if you want to call it that) 
components like trub, hop junk, break amoungst other primary fermentation
byproducts. the primary is a large growth were as the bottle condition
fermetnation is a lot less growth going on.

lastly in most commercial applications yeast for bottling is comming from the
propagation room, and in a virgin state so to speak. in most the yeast picked
for this process is selected is used primarily for this purpose and nothing 
else (usually - but not allways).  the primary goals of the selection
is final flavor of the product,  speed of referment, stability, packing at the
bottom when done.  alot of yeast out there is fine for primary/secondary but
fails (commercially anyway) for bottle conditioning. 

good luck and great brewing

joe rolfe





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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:15:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: beer with mass appeal

lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner) wrote:

>     Recently, the notion of beer
>     with mass appeal came up.  A CAP would have been my 1st choice.
>     Somebody, Ken Schwartz maybe, suggested an O'fest.  That would be my
>     2nd choice.  Well not really an O'fest, more of a North American
>     Vienna.  Use 4# Pils, 4# Vienna, and 2# corn.  It's a pretty colored
>     beer.  Use an oz of Cluster for bittering and an oz of Libery for
>     finishing.

It's always nice to see public enthusiasm for CAP and other American
corn-adjunct beers.  The grain bill of this Vienna-American lager looks
similar to one I've made, although I considered it more of a
Bavarian-American as it was  gold rather than amber, maybe 4-5 L.  Very
pretty, as Lou says.  It may depend on the color of the Vienna malt.  I
also aimed for a little higher FG and used a little less bittering, about
20 IBU target.  I compute this to be 24 IBU from the Cluster assuming 7%
alpha, 23% utilization, 5.25 gallons (to allow for subsequent losses).

Corn really adds to this style of beer, doesn't it?  What a shame it's so
denigrated.  I would guess that it is typical of the Bavarian influenced
lagers made in America in pre-prohibition and early post-pro times.
Sometimes I think that I prefer these European-American versions with corn
to the all malt originals, but then I taste the originals and think not,
they're both terrific.  So many beers, so little time!  I can't brew or
drink all the ones I want to make.  Maybe time to open a brewpub!

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:27:11 -0500
From: Thomas Kramer <tkramer at monad.net>
Subject: hot side aeration

I was mashing a IPA in my 7gal gott cooler with a phils false bottom, and
when I went to start the sparge I found that the hose connecting the false
bottom to the valve had come off, so I poured the mash in to my 5gal
cooler, and sparged.  The temp of the mash was about 162F at the time will
this cause hot side aeration, and what does that mean, will my beer taste
different, how will I be able to tell?

tom

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 10:06:45 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Cheap chrome beer taps

Kevin Aylor asked about cheap chrome beer taps.

The least expensive place I have found is Superior Products.  Their number
is (800) 328-9800.  I bought mine at their store in Dallas but they also
do mail order.  I believe I paid about $22 apiece for the spigots.  Be
sure to ask for spigots or faucets as "tap" mean something else to them.
That is the part that goes into a keg.  I almost ordered the wrong thing the
first time I bought any.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:09:24 -0500
From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
Subject: Mills

Top of the afternoon to ye all,

>>Al Korzonas said:
I don't think there's a need.  I've seen and used grain crushed
with both the JSP MaltMill and the PhilMill and both produce a grist
that is very close to that said to be "ideal" by various professional
texts.  I've gotten as much as 30 pts/lb/gal from malt crushed with
a single pass through my JSP MaltMill.  I doubt that a 6-roller mill
can do any better.<<

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.  And yes a 6-roll mill
can do much better as much as 10-15% better.

>>Al Korzonas said:
Back when I used to own a HB supply store, a customer who had been using
a Corona mill for many years, bought a MaltMill.  He called me later to
let me know that his average efficiency had improved 20%.<<

This is only because neither you nor your customer knew how to adjust the
Corona mill properly.  

>>Al Korzonas said:
I know of two microbreweries that used Coronas and I know they have made
great beer with them, but I feel that rollermills result in far better
crushes with far less adjusting and consistently better efficiency.  With
the Corona you have a tradeoff between uncrushed malt and fractured husks.<<

Properly set the Corona mill doesn't fracture husk any more then the
MaltMill or the Phil's Mill.  As you have said before if the pH is correct
there is no problem with a few crushed husks.

>>Al Korzonas said:
Use a Corona for making tortillas... use a rollermill for making beer.

The right tool for the right job.<<


MaltMill, Phil's Mill, and Valley Mill are not the right tool for the job.
The right tool for the job is a mill with rollers that are 250 mm in
diameter and has at least four rollers.  

All of the mills available to the homebrewer are a compromise.  All will
allow you to crush malt and brew beer.  The Corona properly adjusted will
give the best extraction as well as great beer, of the mill available to
the homebrewer at the least cost.

Bill




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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:13:05 -0600
From: Kent Campbell <kencam at pobox.com>
Subject: Non Fermentation

Hi,

This is my first post to this list, and you will surely discover that I am
a neophyte.  Now with that admitted and acknowledged, I will, with great
trepidation, post a question that will surely show my ignorance.

I received a Homebrew Kit from my Daughter for Christmas, and a great book
on the subject as well.  It included a 3.5lb can of malt extract, 2 lbs of
dried malt extract, a packet of Edme yeast with a 1999 expiration date, and
some ?Fuggles? hops.  

I read up on how to do this procedure, sanitized everything as well as I
could think with Clorox, rinsed well, boiled everything for 45 minutes,
followed the instrucs on the Hops (steeped like tea in the last 15 minutes
using a straining bag), cooled the wort to about 75 degrees F by using a
sink bath around the pot (tap water was about 43 degrees, so got a quick
cool down in my 14 qt. pot), and put it in the Carboy.  Added store bought
bottled distilled water to 5 gallons, and added the yeast which had been
hydrated in a pint of boiled and cooled water, placed in a sterile half
gallon container to which was added about 4 tablespoons of the canned malt
extract mixed in a quart of 95 degree boiled and cooled water.  That had
been left to start for about one hour while the wort was prepared.  

Placed the lid, and the airlock, and watched the thing pop at about 70 to
75 beats a minute for the first 36 hours, then slowly drop off to no
activity in the air lock after about 48 to 60 hours.  

BTW, the OG was 1.013 at about 75 degrees F.  After 7 days, I took a sample
from the carboy and tested the SG to see if this stuff was getting ready.
To my absolute surprise, I got a SG reading of 1.013 at about 64 degrees F.
 Now I know that there is an adjustment for temperature, but it sure seems
to me that virtually no fermentation has taken place.  What is the deal?
Can I save this batch by re pitching with new yeast?  Why didn't the sugars
ferment?  I still have the brew in the carboy, not knowing what to do with
it.  I don't want to waste time bottling it if it is non alcoholic, I would
rather try again.  

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Kent Campbell
Geocities Community Leader, WallStreet
http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/2172
http://www.pobox.com/~kencam
EMail always reaches me using: kencam at pobox.com
ICQ pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1791589

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:09:12 EST
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: Electric Elements

I've received a few requests for more info on the Omega and Minco elements I
mentioned in HBD2601 so I thought I'd post it here for everyone.  My thought
was that these elements could be attached to the outside of the JS MixMasher
kettle, and operated using the same type of control used by RIMS brewers, to
form a completely automated non-RIMS mashing system based on the MixMasher.

I'm not associated with any of the manufacturers listed in this article.

*Flexible Heaters*

The elements I referred to in the previous article are much like heating pads.
There are two types which are probably applicable to our use, silicone rubber
and Kapton.  There are other materials used but the idea is the same.

The silicone heaters are made by sandwiching nichrome heating wire between two
thin layers of silicone rubber.  They will withstand temperatures up to 450F
(232C).  The overall heater is about 0.020" (0.5mm) thick.  They are normally
not immersible, so they would be attached to the outside of the kettle.
Omega's offerings are available in 2.5, 5, and 10 watt per square inch
densities.  For the amount of power we need (at least 1000W for 5-gallon batch
mashes), the 10W/sq-in model is probably the best practical choice.  However,
some over-temperature lockout might be needed in case the kettle was operated
dry or overheating otherwise occurs.  A simple hair-dryer snap-action
thermostat may be adequate, since we only need temperatures up to something
less than boiling.

Kapton heaters are made using an etched copper (or other metal) foil pattern
between two sheets of Kapton, a thin, flexible, high-temperature material.  It
can be used up to 392F (200C) and is half the thickness of the silicone uint.
It too is not immersible.  It is a bit more expensive than the silicone model.

A sample of models and prices for the Omega line is given here, from their
1996 catalog.  For a 5-8 gallon kettle, a 12" circular unit attached to the
bottom of the kettle would provide 1500W at 10W/sq-in.  This unit
(#SRFR-12/10) costs $53.  The same thing in Kapton (#KHR-12/10) costs $67.
For larger batches, use this unit plus a 4" x 36" rectangular unit wrapped
around the kettle near the bottom.  #SRFG-436/10 supplies an additional 1440W
for $57.  No Kapton version is available in this size.  For both personal
safety and for efficient heating, the heater(s) should be covered with
fberglass insulation, and again, be sure to include some sort of over-
temperature protection.  Also, be sure the element is in intimate contact with
the vessel at all points.  Air gaps will lead to localized overheating (hot
spots).  Be sure the vessel is completely flat-bottomed.  Use a thin layer of
silicone adhesive to attach the element and be sure it's fully cured before
using.

While the prices may seem high, compared with a top-quality water-heater
element used in a RIMS system, the difference diminishes somewhat.  The lack
of need for external heating chamber material and construction also offsets
the difference to a degree.  Again, the two types of systems have their trade-
offs.

There's nothing to say that you couldn't also use these types of heaters to
make electric boilers as well as mashtuns.  1500W is plenty to acheive a
rolling boil in 6-7 gallons of wort.  If you have concerns about using water-
heater elements in your wort (see below), this alternative prevents the wort
from contacting anything but the kettle material.

I would strongly discourage the idea of using a flexible heater on a plastic
vessel.  Plastic is a relatively poor conductor of heat and would require the
heater to get quite hot in order to push the necessary amount of heat through
the plastic, raising the danger of overheating/meltdown/fire/spilled boiling
liquid.  Use only metal vessels with flexible heaters, and electrically ground
the vessel itself for an added measure of safety.

Omega can be reached at (800) TC-OMEGA or see their website at
http://www.omega.com.  Contact Minco at (612) 571-3121 or
http://www.minco.com.  The websites do not have much infomation specifically
on heaters but they do have links for information & pricing requests.

*Water-Heater Elements*

The other kind of heater commonly used is the water-heater type of immersible
heating element.  They typically have a screw-type threaded base, and a loop
of heavy heating wire, sometimes "folded" to increase wire length in a compact
overall size.  This "heating wire" is made as follows.  A length of nichrome
heating wire (usually 80Ni/20Cr) is coiled around a small mandrel.  This
assembly is then coated with a thick layer of manganese oxide (MgO) which has
the property of being a good electrical insulator as well as a good thermal
conductor.  This whole thing is then enclosed within a metal sheath.  The
metal sheath is usually electrically grounded, and is not electrically
connected to the power terminals on the screw base.  Thus, under normal
operation, no electricity ever contacts the liquid.

The sheath materials most often used include copper, stainless steel,
Incolloy, and Chromalox.  Incolloy is known (among other things) for its
resistance to corrosive water baths, so I suspect it should be quite inert in
wort (which is acidic but not exactly "corrosive").  Copper and stainless are
obviously compatible with wort.  Maybe our resident metallurgists can jump in
with some details?

With any type of heater, one of the most important things to consider is the
watt density rating, which is the number of watts of power passing through a
square inch of heater surface.  Too much power and you will scorch the wort by
overheating.  Seems Mr RIMS Dion Hollenbeck once posted a figure of about 14
W/sq-in for his design.  Hardware-store elements are usually 5/16" diameter,
giving a surface area of about 1 sq-in per inch of wire length.  The short,
single-loop elements may be as high as 70 W/sq-in or more while the longer,
folded types fall into the 20-25 W/sq-in range.

See my web page for details on how I made an electric brewery.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:14:13 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Rubbermaid, dosage, plastics

Brewsters:

Leave it an Ozzie to find the name "Rubbermaid" somehow
seductive.

Charlie Scandrett says:

>I use steam injection into the standard plastic insulated reactor
>(The products of the unsung Mr. Gott or the suggestively titled
 "Rubbermaid",

Makes me wonder why you chose steam injection.
What kinds of magazines do you read besides BT?  {8^)
Nice summary and comments as usual.
- ------------------------------------------------------
Jim Wallace asks "why not put in all the fermentables at the
beginning?"  Adding sugar repeatedly when the gravity gets to 5
is an old home winemaking trick to encourage the yeast to =

adapt and ferment to a higher alcohol than normal.   Since beer
yeast is also S. Cerevisiae, it also works here.  Why?  I've never
heard any scientific reasoning. It may have to do with the osmotic
pressure across the yeast cell membranes if the OG is too high.
Perhaps at some point,  the combination of sugar and alcohol
prevents the yeasts membranes from functioning.  Putting in the =

sugar in stages may postpone this critical combination or.  Anyone?? =

- ------------------------------------------------------
Fred Johnson asks for more details on the relationship between
color and food-grade plastics.  I wasn't implying that only white =

or all white was food safe, but they were *likely* to be safe to use =

if they were not recycled plastics, simply because most modern =

pigments ( calcium carbonate and titanium dioxide) used to make =

polyethylene white are pretty safe.  I have a green and a yellow
fermenter ( perhaps not too good of a choice) which I have been
using for a few decades, since the size I wanted did not come in
white at the time of purchase. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that
pigments will leach out of polyethylene ( and I see no evidence of it)
, but it could happen with some unusual metal based ones, perhaps.
Best choice is something from a deli or other food store, although
I have read here that pickle containers are impossible( or at least
difficult without UV exposure)  to clean of the smell. I would *not*
use a bucket that had contained non-food ingredients, especially
adhesives and the like as these may have monomers which can
go into the plastic of the bucket and leach back out and  indeed =

be dangerous.  Your best bet it to buy a new container from the HB =

store, even if it is high priced, as its cost is small in the long run.
- -------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:32:35 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Do NOT store Copper in bleach (verdigris thread)

Ed responded to Mike's question on the danger of verdigris poisening
from his copper aerator attachment.  Mike said he that the tube when not
in use was exposed to air or soaked in bleach.  The gist of Ed's
response was that the amount of verdigris you would get from the tube
was too small to worry about.  And that verdigris is formed from copper
oxide reacted with acetic acid.

My comments are:
a)  Don't clean/sanitize copper with bleach in the first place and you
won't have the black oxides to worry about.  Use hot water,
percarbonates or iodophor.
b)  Use acetic acid (vinegar) to clean all the oxides off the copper
before use and rinse with water.  Sure you may form verdigris this way
but its all in solution and you are washing it all away.  Shiny clean
copper is verdigris-free and is much less reactive to beer than oxided
copper.

John Palmer
metallurgist
Monrovia, CA
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/


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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 12:28:14 EST
From: Tim.Watkins at analog.com
Subject: RE:  Keeping Warm (HBD2603#16)

In HBD 2603, Tony asks...

>1)  What's the best source for heat? 

The lightbulb is probably the easiest thing to work with.  If you are 
worried about the light, you could just place an old coffee can over it.  
The heat will still get out.  Incandescent light is not nearly as bad as 
flourescents, and flourescents are not nearly as bad as direct sunlight.  
Use your own judgement.

>2)  Thermostatic control.  A Honeywell home-furnace type thermostat >would 
be ideal, but I don't know how one would switch a 120v line with >the 6 
volt thermostat.  

There are many relays that you can use.  They can switch a 120v line 
voltage with a 5 volt input signal.  Go to your local electronics store and 
tell them what you're trying to do, and they should be able to help you 
select the right relay.

Regards,

Tim in
Lowell, MA


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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:39:36 -0500
From: Greg_Young at harcourtbrace.com (Greg Young)
Subject: To cover or not to cover.....

Howdy, all. In attempts to design and develop a simplified, scaled-down RIMS, me
(the homebrewer) and my father (the engineer and soon-to-be homebrewer) have
stumbled upon (yet another) dilemma.  We're currently doing  a full-wort boil on
your basic kitchen gas range. We're using a 9 gallon aluminum kettle, which we
have fully insulated with a fire-resistant, highly efficient insulation both
around the kettle and on the lid. We can maintain a strong rolling boil, but we
have found that we have to keep the lid partially on to do so--at least
about70-80% on. Of course, with a roiling boil going on, there's an enormous
amount of steam being generated and expelled, but my concern is if this amount
of ventilation will be enough to allow the DMS-causing volatiles to be driven
off. My homebrewer instincts say 'no,' but my engineering counterpart thinks
otherwise--I hope I'm wrong (and I don't say that often).  Any help is, as
always, greatly appreciated, and as soon as we get this thing finalized, I'll be
sure to let you all check it out in a nifty web page (besides, what's a RIMS
without it's own web page, right?)

Giddie-yup.


Greg Young
G.Young's Basement Brewery
Philadelphia, PA

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:32:39 -0600
From: The GasFamily <gasman at navix.net>
Subject: Source for MashMixer motors - Surplus Center

In the past the Surplus Center in Lincoln NE has been posted as a good
source of 'stuff'.   I have purchased from their small retail store but most
of their business is done via phone/UPS      1-800-888-3407       They have
a catalog - 160 pages.

They have a wide variety of surplus and new equipment.  I have purchased
quick disconnects for my CO2 system for $5, an alarm system - name brand, a
motor for my grain mill - the possibilities are endless.  Imagine a
hydraulic system to dump your pickup bed - $850 - a great project while your
RIMS or MashMixer does the work of mashing.

They have 20+ AC Gear motors - one that looks like the one on the MixM page
goes for $6.99 (Item 5-1138) - but it is 42 RPM and rated for Intermittent
duty - an hour or two may be tolerated.  Another is 27.6 RPM, much beefier
for $16.99 (Item 5-1110) it has a 3/8" shaft and turns at 10 in. lbs of
torque.  I have their 152 RPM, $25.95, fan cooled motor for driving my grain
mill (Item 5-984) - Their selection lists just about any RPM range.

If you are a tinkerer - you MUST have this resource.  I suggest Jack
relocate for his shopping convenience - like I did.

Mike Gasman
Lincoln NE


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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:11:23 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com>
Subject: Re: High Altitude Brewing Record


Brian says in HBD 2603:

> On August 30, 1997, 8 members of the Tribe Homebrew Club of Longmont,
> Colorado brewed a batch of beer on Colorado's highest peak, Mt Elbert
> (elev. 14,433 ft.) in an endeavor they termed OPERATION: Hypoxia.

I apologize for the complete lack of content, but:  :-)  Are there
pictures?  What a worthy endeavor!

> As the AHA Administrator, one of the eight OPERATION: Hypoxia commandos and
> currently a member of the Tribe, I would like to issue a challenge to any
> club or individual to beat the record.  It's theoretically possible with
> Mt. McKinley, Mt. Whitney and Mount Aconcagua, Argentina.

A question about Mt. Elbert:  What's the delta el and distance?  For Mt.
Whitney (14,495ft), it's something like 6,100ft of elevation from the
trailhead to the top with 14 (11?) miles of trail.  It takes all but the
strongest backpackers two days to get all the way up.  OTOH, the water
could be pumped at Trail Camp, at about 11,500ft (?).  Hmm...Anybody want
to coordinate something like this with me?

Also:  Can it be an extract batch?  I think all-grain would have a higher
niftyness factor, but obviously extra equipment and water.  I say:  AG
Imperial Stout.  Lessee...we're gonna need a half dozen Whisperlites,
homebrew to appease the weather/mountain/beer gods, a hop utilization
wizard, a clever name (preferably a contrived acronym), and complete lack
of regard for what this whole thing might actually entail.

Honestly, any CA backpacking homebrewers want to take a run at this in
the late Summer?  There are some issues (eg, weather), but certainly worth
considering.  The lottery system is no longer in effect in CA, and we
have to call six months to the day in advance.  As Mt. Whitney is one of
the busiest trails in the country (possibly THE busiest), success is not
assured, but worth a shot, no?


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at nfs.aisf.com

     New ones comin' as the old ones go
     Everything's moving here, but much too slow


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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:00:28 -0800
From: "C.W. Hudak" <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Fixing my enamel pot

Greetings,

I've searched the archives but keep coming up with nada. I'm looking for a
product to repair the chips in my enamel on steel brewpot. The stuff that I
found in Home Depot is for repairing sinks, counters, etc but says "do not
use for stove top applications" which I assume is because it is not heat
resistant. Has anyone had any success with anything out there? I'm
wondering if there are any epoxies which are food and heat safe to use in
an application like this instead of one of the porcelin or enamel repair
paints. 

Private email is fine

C--

Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:11:32 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: mass appeal beer, mixmasher

On the mass appeal beer thread; Out here in Calif the newest trend in
beer is "RED" beer, I dont know of any style guidelines, but being a
mass appeal beer you wouldn't want to push the flavor envelope too far.
I'd say malt and hops should be budmillercoors plus 10%. Colour is very
important, thats why they call it Red beer. Adjuncts will help you
obtain the right colour. Food colouring probably the easist way. :^)

	mixmasher comments: I'm in a slow process of building a rims system. If
my understanding of rims is correct, then one drawback is the slow
temperture rise.  Wouldn't a person be able to turn on the mix masher,
then fire up a 200,000 BTU burner under it? It seems to me that the
mixmasher can't replace rims (sorry jack) but it sure could complement
it in regards to saving time.

	I just read George and Rob's little letter from school. More personel
than most of my Christmas cards. In those famous Budwiser words "I love
you, man"

Mike Rose   mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net   riverside, ca

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 13:28:18 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Mixmasher

I have not seen pictures of Jack's device but thought I would make some
comments about a device I built.
I had an old gas grill rotisserie motor I decided to use for a stirring device.
I bought some 1/2 inch square aluminum bar stock I used for the shaft and
attached two crude blades made from 1.5 inch wide flat aluminum stock.
The stirrer worked fine until the motor gave out.  I don't think it was
up to the load.  Next I bought a nice gear motor from someone on HBD and
adapted it to the job.  This motor turned faster but I don't have that speed
spec. handy just now.

Anyway, I was having a lot of problems with stuck runoffs and had a thick layer
of teig (sp?) on top of the grain.  I fought this problem for some time before
I decided it might be tied to the stirrer.  My last two batches were done
without the stirrer and I had no runoff problems.  The last batch I got 90
percent extraction and the runoff cleared in two pitchers of runoff (vorlauf?).
I suppose I should go back and try a batch with the stirrer again to see if
the problem returns but think I will continue without it as things are going
so well.

The reason I mention all this is because of the talk of automatic stirrers.
I don't know why there was a problem with mine unless it was stirring too
fast and effectively crushed the grain more.  The last motor was faster but
I don't know how much.

At any rate, if I were to try it again it would be with a much slower stir.
Meanwhile, stirring two or three times over a two hour mash is not much
work and so far has had very good results.  I runoff faster than the oft
recommended five gallon per hour rate, too.  Probably on the order of five
gallons in forty minutes.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com

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