HOMEBREW Digest #2713 Thu 14 May 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Re: yeast energizer/nutrient (Scott Murman)
  DMS sensitivity (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Homemade CaraPils / DMS (George_De_Piro)
  Lager worries (michael w bardallis)
  Re: fun on the HBD (Samuel Mize)
  Recipe doubling yeast question ("Robert B Balsinger")
  All Grain Blues (EFOUCH)
  Big Brew Phase II Complete ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re: Cooler mash/lauter tun; Big Brew Small Beer (Ted Major)
  HomeMade Crystal & Cara-Pils (KennyEddy)
  Ending pH. (Duff Hickman)
  Hops Direct - Puterbaugh Farms ("Rob Nelson")
  re: Extract Brewing, All Grain Brewing & Chemistry (Matthew Arnold)
  cooler mashing ("Henckler, Andrew")
  Madison WI Beerfest? (Waso)
  Making crystal malt ("Hans E. Hansen")
  HSA, Miller and Boiling (James Tomlinson)
  Champagne yeast for BIG BREW (Al Korzonas)
  Re: Some newbie all grain questions (Markus Berndt)
  BB98 - aging (Doug Moyer)
  Doctored Beer Tests (Al Korzonas)
  Hops & deer (Doug Moyer)
  yeast energiser/nutrient (Al Korzonas)
  roots (Al Korzonas)
  going all-grain..../lessening the sparge ("Riedel, Dave")
  hop suppliers (Al Korzonas)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: yeast energizer/nutrient > Chris asks about yeast energizer and nutrients, what's the difference > and how to use them. > > I'm going to give an answer without the exact ingredients (fuzzy mind > ... and no reference material with me here at work). I replied to Chris' original question off-line, but others may also be interested. I have a listing of the ingredients of the most common "nutrients" and "energizers" on my web pages, http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy. These are posted with the permission of the manufacturers (unlike some of the other data on my pages;). The most common ingredient by far is diammonium phosphate (DAP). I'll leave it to someone who actually remembers chem class to explain how that can be beneficial to yeast, but I did find it interesting that DAP will actually lower pH, although with the amounts used it's probably negligible in practice. SM Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:04:01 -0700 From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU> Subject: DMS sensitivity Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu> writes: > This is in reference to > DMS sensitivity. A goup of us in Nashville were preparing for the BJCP exam > and were able to get access to one of the "off flavor" spiking kits that one > of our brewing community folks had brought back from his Seibel training > course. We spiked a whole case of Budweiser with varrying amounts of the > samples in order to experience different threshold levels of awareness of > these > common beer flavors. DMS was one of these. Well, when it came time to > crack open the lowest of the 3 DMS samples we did, two of us at the table > smelled DMS as soon as the bottle was opened! Can you say "Ho Ho Ho! Green > Giant Niblets" !? These were blind samplings, too, by the way. What was > even more amazing was that several at the table even had a little trouble > picking up the aroma on the higher level spikings. This is a commonly seen phenomenon. I do Dr. Beer (TM--Jay Hersh) tastings for my club, judges-in-training, and occaisionally other groups, and I see this quite often. IMneverHO there is no shame in not being able to detect compound X, it seems to be something you are stuck with. I, for example, have never tasted a beer that tasted like cloves (4-vinyl guaiacol). I can say from doing this that I know exactly what DMS tastes/smells like both by itself and in beer, and at various concentrations (many compounds, and DMS in particular, have very different smells at different concentrations). I can also say that I have at least average sensitivity to it. - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:17:53 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Homemade CaraPils / DMS Hi all, Jon down under asks about making cara-pils malt. Cara-pils is really just a light form of crystal malt, so the instructions I posted the other day apply (soak pilsner malt to ~45% moisture, bake the covered, wet malt at 145-160F (63-71C) for an hour or more, then uncover while still heating to dry it.) The hotter and longer the drying heat is applied, the darker the malt becomes (Maillard reactions). If you want to make the lightest possible crystal malt, check it often during the saccharification rest; it will darken then, too, so don't over do it. To get the lightest possible malt you could then dry the malt at the same temperature you saccharified at, or experiment with different temperatures. I can say from experience that drying at 87F (30.5C) did make a very light crystal malt, but it didn't taste quite right. It also took a few days to dry, even with a fan blowing air over it. ------------------------------------- DMS has been discussed a bit here lately, so I'll throw my .02 into the ring. A great way to learn about how much DMS is formed during the boil is to can some starter wort. Boil the wort in a Mason jar, allow it to cool, then open it up and smell/taste it. To my nose, it goes beyond the somewhat pleasant cooked corn smell and enters the realm of overcooked vegetables. That is what could happen to your beer if you boil it without allowing evaporation. Of course, none of us do that. DMS boils at 100F (38C), so as long as the lid is open a bit, it should blow off fine. Slow cooling in a covered pot will definitely allow a lot of DMS to remain in the wort, though. On rare occasions I have split the brew day into two sessions, day one ending with the kettle filled with hot wort at ~200F (93C). The next morning the wort reeks of DMS (it also has a ton of break material; a vigorous boil is not necessary if you give it enough time to form.) Of course, I boil the wort on day two, so all of that DMS does get blown out. Just another data point. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:24:33 -0400 From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis) Subject: Lager worries Jim asks, >My Munich Helles has been lagering for 3 weeks at 40F or less. I don't >think it has quite fermented all the way out. I know I goofed I should >have let it go a little longer at a higher temp before I started >lagering it, but, too late. Jim,You didn't tell us some pertinent info. Grist (or extract) formulation and OG are relevant, but in any case 1.010 doesn't sound too high. Have you made this particular beer before? Same beer, different yeast? (some other yeasts may attenuate further) At 38-40F, 2308 is still going to (slowly) keep fermenting. I've got a 1.047 Pils, 6% Munich, balance 2row, with a TG of 1.010, fermented by 2308, going right now.So you're probably OK to go as is, but regarding Q#1, those 'aley' things get formed during vigorous fermentation in nutrient-rich wort. There isn't going to be much for those yeasties to get in an uproar about in your beer now, even if you _are_ .004 above TG.As to Q#2, there's probably going to be enough yeast to do the job, but you could have a wait on your hands. Adding krausen beer (active starter, Q#3,) requires a SWAG on your part to determine how much fermentable extract you're adding. I'd recommend adding a)a bit of dried yeast, or b)some slurry from the bottom of a starter, along with your primingsOh yeah, and BB98 was a geek-a-thon to end all...'til next year's!Mike BardallisAllen Park, MIThat's all very well in practice; but will it work in theory? ---Ken Willing _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:04:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net> Subject: Re: fun on the HBD Greetings to all, and especially to: > From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com> > Subject: Extract Brewing, All Grain Brewing & Chemistry > I have also followed the thread on just what organic reactions are taking > place in beer. This is all fine and good, but I think that the point we all > became homebrewers is being missed. ... > I think we all need to get back to our roots, to brew good beer and have a > lot of fun doing it. Well, we're here to have fun talking about it. Oddly enough, that's what those guys are doing. If thinking about Mallard reactions (quack) and organo-bio-magnetohydrodynamic-whatsis gets them excited and interested, and helps them feel like brewing, let's just page down and let them go at it. If you'd like to see posts about something else, start the conversation! Post a comment, or a question. Best, Sam Mize - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:13:58 -0400 From: "Robert B Balsinger" <mgd2 at epix.net> Subject: Recipe doubling yeast question Greetings, Newbie brewer, middl'ing lurker here. My first batch is to be an American Brown extract. I am not going with a kit as my prodigious lurking has, I believe, prepared me for a great start. Thanks to all. My question is: I am starting with a 10 gallon batch. Do I simply double the amount of Wyeast American Chico called for in the 5 gallon recipe (1 pkg for 5 gallon) or is there some law of physics and / or biochem of which I am, perchance, unaware (this would not be a shock on this end). <Recipe is from Meow Ch. 01, pg. 19> Personal email mgd2 at epix.net fine. *Will the first time hurt?* Return to table of contents
Date: 13 May 1998 09:13:25 -0400 From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com Subject: All Grain Blues Tim- Don't get discouraged by the HBD muckity-mucks. I too, have had tons of chemistry in college. I worked in a pharmaceuticals research lab, yadda, yadda, yadda. I graduated with a double major in biology and chemistry, but am an engineer by trade. I'm not trying to give you my resume, just set the stage: I rarely read the posts on water chemistry, and feel guilty about paging down through all the ene-ol, al vs yde, hot potato(e) passing parties and other techno-babble. I like George. All these guys have got it going on, and I'm sure they enjoy brewing as much as I do. But by being a chemist by training, and an engineer by trade, I don't even know for sure what my brewhouse efficiency is. I should be able to calculate and hit an OG, and adjust my hops bitterness according to my % utilization, but I DON'T. The HBD has a few rotating threads that get beaten to death periodically: Boiling ferocity, propane vs natural gas, hops toxicity, etc.- which reminds me- the botulism thread is about due. Anyway, along with these cycles is a periodic sniping session. People get fat and happy, and start lipping off, while other people just wait for their opportunity to try to prove somebody else is wrong. I myself recently considered blasting a couple of idiots ;) for misspelling potato, and missidentifying a good band (*Third* Eye Blind, not *One* Eye Blind)! Who cares!? Make and drink good beer!? What I'm trying to say is this: Go all grain. Do full wort boils. Have fun. Don't worry whether your beer matches a style. Throw in some Kellogs Corn Flakes. Use Tapioca granules. Make an Oktoberfest with ale yeast. Ask the simplest all grain questions to the HBD. Brew by the seat of your pants. If, one day, you decide to go techno, calculate water ions, hit bitterness units, calculate % volume loss from the kettle, and/or strictly abide by style guidelines, it'll probably improve your beer. But you don't have to. "Have Fun" Eric Fouch Bent Dick FunFactory Kentwood, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:32:38 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Big Brew Phase II Complete From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 05/13/98 09:32 AM Greeting Brewers! I took a hydrometer reading Tuesday night before the club meeting and the adjusted figure was 1.027. Gee, I guess that oxygen and 2 cups of brewpub slurry really did its thing! 69 points in 10 days. not bad. Tonight I'll rack and start a champagne yeast starter. If I can get a few more points out of the Nottingham should I skip the champagne? BTW, I think that was the best hydrometer sample I've ever drank! Full bodied (Too Full?) Thick even. Hop bitterness was there, Alcohol and smooth....This is going to be good!! So, between the two all grainers at Big Brew we collected and combined 5 gals of 2nd runnings in a water jug with the intent to boil later. We didn't. I stuffed a couple of cheesecloths in the neck and took it home to reboil Sunday and can for starters. I didn't. Monday, I didn't. Tuesday, I didn't. Wednesday night it had a head on it. No surprise there. So now I have this unbioled wort of unknown gravity spontaneously fermenting in the garage (Not my Fermentation room, but directly under my 2-tier). So after reading my new Michael Jackson book for the last week, I'm thinking of dropping in a pound or two of liquid wheat malt extract and calling it a p-lambic. Any thoughts from the great collective? Am I pouring money down a batch of Dumperbrau? What is the effect of not boiling at all? Phil Wilcox Poison Frog Home Brewery Sec/$er/Editor/Future Webmaster www.hbd.org/prisoner Coming soon!!!!!!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:40:09 From: Ted Major <tidmarsh at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cooler mash/lauter tun; Big Brew Small Beer Tim and Rich bring up questions of mashing and lautering in the same vessel. I mash and lauter in an Igloo 5-gal cylindrical cooler with a Phil's false bottom. I rarely have trouble with stuck sparges, and when I do, it occurs with decoction mashes, which tend to be denser from being boiled. As I see it, the great advantage of a cooler mashtun is the simplicity of mashing and lautering in the same vessel. As I understand it, one stirs the mash to ensure an even temperature and even distribution of enzymes. I stir well at mash in and once or twice over the course of the mash. I've occasionally had grain find its way under the false bottom, but since I've taken a piece of siphon hose the legnth of the circumference of the false bottom and slit it lengthwise to wrap around the edge of the false bottom as a seal between the cooler wall and the false bottom, I haven't had much grain underneath. Doug Geiss asks if anyone else did a small beer in cinjunction with the big brew. I did. From 12 lbs of grain, I wound up with 2.5 gals of 1.100 Big 10/20 Barleywine and 2.5 gals of 1.040 "Little 5/10" Bitter. Cheers, Tidmarsh Major, Birmingham, Alabama tidmarsh at mindspring.com "Bot we must drynk as we brew, And that is bot reson." -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:18:36 EDT From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com> Subject: HomeMade Crystal & Cara-Pils Jon Bovard asks about homemade cara-pils: " Noonan mentions the process briefly in the brewing bible "Lager beer", but does anyone have a process for making cara-pils malt in a home environment. I for one, want to try :)....." For Jon's information, Cara-Pils as most of us know it is simply a very light crystal malt. It is slightly sweet and lends body, mouthfeel, and foam. It may look like amber malt, but if you chew a few grains and don't break your teeth, it's not Cara-Pils. I posted my procedure a while back, and George de Piro echoed with his similar approach, but it's short & easy and I'll summarize here: 1) Soak pale malt overnight in the fridge to prevent spoiling. Use at least 2 cups *dechlorinated* water per pound of grain (one liter per kilogram). 2) Preheat oven to 150F - 170F (65C - 75C). Some ovens don't go this low but use your lowest setting and try to keep in this range. 3) Spread the malt out in a thin layer on a cookie sheet & cover tightly with foil to retain the moisture. 4) Bake for 3 hours. It takes a while for the malt to heat up and then to "mash" in the husk. Don't let the malt go over 170F. Perhaps you could stick a thermometer in the grain to help guide you if your oven won't maintain this low temperature; you might have to turn your oven on and off to keep the malt temperature in the right range. 5) Uncover the malt. If you taste the grains, they should be noticibly sweet. Now you will want to bake the wet crystal malt dry. The baking or "curing" temperature and duration will determine the color and depth of flavor. For Cara-Pils, keep the temperature where it is (and cure longer). For darker crystal malts, raise the temperature anywhere up to 350F. 6) Sample the malt occasionally while curing. Take a few grains out and let them cool for a minute or so before tasting (besides the grains being hot, the sugars can be soft and give the illusion that the grain is still wet). When the grains are hard and crunchy, no longer damp, and have the desired color, you're done. This process can take another hour to several hours depending on the temperature used and the color desired. ***** Tim Green writes: "I have watched a recognized professional get blasted for giving out information to help. This is something that is rude and in poor taste. The fact that he still posted here to clarify the information totally amazed me. If it had been me, the HBD would have never gotten another post from me! If that is what I have to look forward to if I switch to all-grain brewing, I want no part of it." This forum has its faults and occasioanlly gets a bit rancorous, but by and large it's civil and respectful. Hopefully the victim's response was enough to put it all in perspective. In any case, don't let a few rude remarks chase you away from the HBD. It's still the best homebrewing resource on the planet. ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX KennyEddy at aol.com http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:21:46 -0500 From: Duff Hickman <duff at unix.tamu.edu> Subject: Ending pH. HBD, What should be the pH range of a finished, unprimed beer? I'm afraid I over acidified my sparge (first time using phos. acid). Tasting the wort gave that same "puckering" taste/reaction that straight lemon juice does. It's around 4.8 - 5.0, I think. Ignore it? Late CaCO3 addition? -Duff - ---------------------------------- Duff Hickman College Station, TX - ---------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:23:40 -0700 From: "Rob Nelson" <rob_nelson at email.msn.com> Subject: Hops Direct - Puterbaugh Farms On 5/12 Kevin TenBrink responded to Rick... >Rick asked about getting some fresh hops >>I've been trying to find a supplier that sells really fresh whole >>hops and have been dissappointed.<< >I have used and been very impressed with Hops Direct, they are hops >farmers that sell direct to the consumer because the commercial demand >has dropped. Diana at hops direct is very nice and helpful. >Their webpage is at http://www.hopsdirect.com >standard nonaffiliated disclaimer applies, just a happy customer. I met Diana Puterbaugh of Hops Direct when I judged at the CBG competition a while ago. Very nice lady who knew here trade. She brought some jars of pickled hop shoots that were magnificent! She even gave me the recipe. They had a short bale of Galenas at their table and they were the cleanest looking hops I've seen in a long time. Just my two cents. Rob Nelson The Brews Brothers http://www.brewsbrothers.org The Mining Company(tm) http://beer.miningco.com beer.guide at miningco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:57:34 GMT From: marnold at netnet.net (Matthew Arnold) Subject: re: Extract Brewing, All Grain Brewing & Chemistry >I am an extract brewer who also uses additional grains that do not need to >be mashed. My main brewing intrest has been making mead, but I get a large >amount of enjoyment making and then drinking the beers that I make. This is the key! >I was considering shifting to all-grain brewing to see just what it would do >for my beers, but now I am not so sure. > >I have watched a recognized professional get blasted for giving out >information to help. This is something that is rude and in poor taste. The >fact that he still posted here to clarify the information totally amazed me. >If it had been me, the HBD would have never gotten another post from me! I think you'll agree that this sort of thing is unusual on the HBD. The majority of the time everyone is quite civil to one another. I'm sure Dr. Fix learned a long time ago what I am just beginning to learn: when you are in the public eye, you need to have thick skin. Don't let this debate in anyway discourage you from trying all-grain brewing. >I have also followed the thread on just what organic reactions are taking >place in beer. This is all fine and good, but I think that the point we all >became homebrewers is being missed. We all want to make and drink better >quality beer than we can buy. I had tons of chemistry in college including >biochemistry and organic chemistry. If I wanted to ply that trade, I would. I am a man of some education (a B.A. and M.Div.), but I realized long ago (in high school) that chemistry was definitely NOT for me. It was by far my worst class. It just never clicked with me for whatever reason. My hat is off to those who have made it their life's work. >If that is what I have to look forward to if I switch to all-grain brewing, >I want no part of it. If I had to understand all the chemistry stuff that gets tossed about on the HBD to brew all-grain, I would have long since burned all my brewing equipment. I've learned a lot from the HBD and I'm eager to learn more. Having said that, I neither care nor need to know all the chemistry behind brewing (especially seeing as so much of it is not well understood!), just as I don't need to know how to reassemble my Oldsmobile's 3.1 V6 on the molecular level to drive, nor do I need to know how the complete Pentium instruction set to run my computer. One of the wonderful things about homebrewing is that there is ample room for those who brew only occasionally with extract-based kits, all the way to those who have a deep, burning need to know every last chemical reaction that goes on in any stage of brewing. Hallelujah! The homebrewing community is better and richer for having both groups and everyone in between. The key is brewing beer you like and enjoying the process. You can say what you will about Charlie's much-maligned NCJoHB (and a lot of people have!), but his easy-going attitude toward homebrewing is what made it so inviting in the first place. It's very easy for the life and fun to get sucked out of homebrewing until I start having flashbacks of junior-year Chemistry and begin to twitch uncontrollably. Brew it, man! It may not come out perfectly, you may not be able to absolutely perfectly reproduce every recipe, but I'll bet the farm that you'll like--even love--the beer and learn to enjoy all-grain brewing as much as I have. Sorry about the bandwidth, but I felt it needed to be said. Matt - ----- Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club http://www.rackers.org info at rackers.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:04:42 -0400 From: "Henckler, Andrew" <ahenckler at findsvp.com> Subject: cooler mashing In response to the folks who are worried that they need to use separate mash and lauter tuns even if they are using coolers... Well, I can't imagine mashing in one cooler and transferring to a separate one for the lauter. The whole reason I switched to a Gott-type cooler was to do everything in one insulated vessel. I have not had a single set mash, even when working with rye malt, high proportions of wheat malt and rice. You will need to stir the mash. This ensures an even temperature and allows you to get accurate temp readings. It also allows you to adequately hydrate the grain at mash in. If you are really concerned about stuck mashes, just pour some hot water into your drain tube and back-flush the manifold, but I would try just lautering first. Usually a set mash is due to an improper grain crush or using ingredients that are difficult to work with, not from your lauter tun. Andrew P. Henckler Senior Research Analyst Industrial Products & Services Practice Strategic Consulting & Research Group FIND/SVP-THE BEST PEOPLE TO FIND THE ANSWERS 625 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10011 Tel: (212) 807-2754 Fax: (212) 807-2782 E-mail: ahenckler at findsvp.com Web: http://www.findsvp.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:11:59 -0500 From: Waso <waso at execpc.com> Subject: Madison WI Beerfest? Does anybody know when the Madison WI Beerfest is? Aug. ? And how do I get tickets. waso at execpc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:35:04 -0700 From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com> Subject: Making crystal malt A few days ago, George dePiro described making crystal malt. Question: What do you start with? Raw barley, or light malted barley? If raw barley, where do you get it? Thanks. Hans E. Hansen hansh at teleport.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:01 -0400 From: James Tomlinson <73321.1130 at compuserve.com> Subject: HSA, Miller and Boiling Hey I finally disagree with Al, on a minor point. Al K. Wrote in HBD2712: "I read all of Miller's books and don't recall him mentioning oxidation of hot wort at all. " I posted the following in Compuserve's Beer/Wine forum Feb 13th, 1998, in a discussion with Mark Garetz, who also doesn't believe HSA can produce the Wet Card Board flavor. My Edition of Miller's book is 1988(?). Start Re-post************************** >From Miller's "The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing", Chapter 27, pages 181-182, "One of the commonest symptoms of oxidation is a cardboard flavor caused by 2-trans-noneal, a long-chain unsaturated aldehydes with low sensory threshold...Besides yeast, all beers contain other substances which tend to counteract oxidation. Technically, they are known as reductones; the melanoidins and some of the phenolic compounds in beer fall into this class. They work by tying up oxygen that might otherwise cause harmful changes...One reason hot wort should not be aerated is that oxidizing reductones at this stage renders them unavailable for later service. Furthermore, oxidized melanoidins and polyphenols can later reverse themselves and act as 'Oxygen carriers' which actually bring about oxidation...Beer can be oxidized in the bottle by these compounds, even if you are careful to avoid dissolving air during racking and bottling." He goes on to say dark beers have more melanoidins than pales and are more likely to be oxidized. Also, that Polyclar was originally developed to remove oxidative browning from white wines. So what I read into the above is that HSA is bad not because it will oxidize your beer directly, but because it ties up the compounds which can prevent oxidation. Also, if they are saturated, they might actually be a source for the later oxidation and staling. James "Careful with that Mash Eugene" Shamelessly stolen. End repost**************************** On boils, evaporation, etc. OK, I admit it, I had to pull the Heat Transfer book out on this one. The Free convection pool boiling we are all familiar with come in basically 3 varieties of which we are interested in only 1: Nucleate: Standard Boiling, Liquid is slightly above saturation temp (Due to hydrostatic considerations), temperature of the liquid is lowest near the _bottom_ of the pot. Localized transition of liquid to vapor phase occurs on nucleation (Rough spots) sites. The Vapor, once created, is bouyant and heads straight for the surface, and since the liquid surrounding it is actually above the Saturation temp, it will not reduce the size of the bubble. To get a good rolling boil, with minimal heatloading (Delta T between the pot bottom and the Wort) one should maximize the surface roughness, or add nucleation sites, say boiling chips. This will also help make a good transistion between heating and boiling. I have to admit that I haven't worried about this in the past, since I have always tried to reduce my volume from 6.5-7 gallons down to 5-5.5, due to my collection volume. Truely excessive heat loading leads to transition boiling and film boiling. Film boiling is real bad, since a layer of saturated vapor clings to the boiling surface, increasing the temperature of the solid surface, while reducing the actual heat transfer rate. Liquid to vapor transition occurs along the transition between the vapor liquid line in the bottom of the pot. Transition boiling is a combo of film and nucleate. I believe this would occur most often with a low conductance metal (Stainless Steel) and a non uniform heating system (Electric coil and, emphatically, electric immersion heaters). Where film boil occurs, I expect that it will leave behind preciptates, which will then over heat and carmelize. I Promise I'll add extra nucleation sites (Most likely marbles or SS nuts) in my next wort (Saturday) and see if I can't keep a good "Rolling boil" while reducing the actual bubble size and delta T from brew pot to wort. James - -- James Tomlinson remove the "no.spam" to reply Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour. But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:33:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Champagne yeast for BIG BREW Doug asks about Champagne yeast for the BIG BREW. Wyeast sells a Champagne yeast in a slap pack. It may be their dry mead yeast. Not all retailers carry it, but all can order it for you. Now, on the other hand, I don't recommend adding the Champagne yeast... it will dry out the Barleywine too much. I would just keep adding more of the original pitching yeast every time the fermenter starts to slow down (within reason). I did use dry yeast (Nottingham in three carboys and Windsor in three) and mine are almost finished with the primary... If you had enough oxygen in the wort and pitched enough yeast (like a gallon starter per 5 gallons!!!), then you probably won't need the Champagne yeast. I couldn't make a small beer because I had to clean out my mashtuns to use as kettles. As it was, I already had used up every empty carboy in the house (21.6 gallons of 1.099 Barleywine)! Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:39:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Markus Berndt <Markus.Berndt at Colorado.EDU> Subject: Re: Some newbie all grain questions Tim Runnette writes: > I've been reading a lot about single mash infusion and have decided to take > the plunge from partial mash and extract to all grain. > > 1. I have a false bottom and a 5 gallon igloo picnic cooler.....can I use > the same vessel for a mash tun and lauter tun??? > 2. If no, why not? It would seem like transferring vessels would be a loss > in temperature. > 3. Any recommendations or lessons learned would be greatly appreciated as I > delve into the world of all grain > 4. Been reading The Brewmaster's Bible by Snyder as my motivation and most > recent reference. > > Thanks in advance > > Tim. I've started mashing last fall and have since brewed about 12 batches, so I guess I'm still quite new to the all-grain thing. To answer your first question, yes, you can use the 5 gallon Igloo for both mashing and lautering. That's what I've been doing and it works like a charm. The only problem I found with the 5 gallon Igloo cooler as a mash tun is that it is a bit small. I live at 5,500 ft elevation and water boils at 200F, so I have to infuse a lot of boiling water to raise the mash to mash-out temparature. Unless I ommit this step, I have to limit the amount of grain I use (about 10 lbs is the limit, which means the stongest beer I can brew has an og of < 1.058). There are two solutions: 1) start buy the 10 gallon Igloo, or 2) do decoction mashing, then you can use up to 13.5 lbs of malt in your 5 gallon cooler and rest at a number of different temperatures (the strongest beer with this technique would be somewhere around 1.075). Of course, decoction really only makes sense for certain styles of beer, but since I love Altbier, that's what I do. A few lessons learned are, avoid splashing the wort as you lauter, if you're not, the beer will likely have wet cardboard flavor (my first two all-grain beers had), lauter very slowly, I usually run off 6.5 gallons of wort in about 90 minutes, this ensures good extraction and the also keeps the wort pretty clear, recirculate the wort before you start collecting it, that makes sure that you have a good filter bed, and the collected wort will be clear (I recirculate the wort for about 5 to 10 minutes and while I do that I reduce the flow rate to what gives me a 90 minute lauter session), while you lauter, keep the lid on your lauter tun losely, that'll keep the temperature from dropping during lautering, cut the grain with a long bread knife in a criss-cross pattern about 4 inches deep every 5 minutes or so, it avoids channeling, helps to avoid stuck mashes and improves extraction a bit. And finally, always keep a gallon or so of water boiling while you mash, so you can infuse some water to raise the temperature of the mash (during a 90 minute saccrification rest the temperature in the 5 gallon Igloo will drop a few degrees, so periodically check the temperature of the mash). I found that a *very* good reference for beginning mashers is the article 'A cooler way to ease into all-grain mashing' by John Palmer in Brewing Techniques Vol. 5, No. 4., I always use the formulas given in that article to compute the water temperatures for mash-in and infusions. Another great reference, is Greg Noonan's 'New Brewing Lager Beer', I contains a great deal of information, that is applicable to both lager and ale brewing. It took me two batches to get the hang of mashing. The first had a wet cardboard taste and pretty low extraction (splashing the wort, and lautering too fast), and the second still had a faint oxidized off-flavor (still splashed the hot wort). After these two batches my beers came out better than my extract beers ever did. I'd suggest you start out brewing some less bitter beers, so you can taste possible off flavors in your beer that are caused by your mashing procedure more easily. Have fun mashing, it takes a lot of time to produce a 5 gallon batch of beer starting with mashing until you pitch the yeast (between 5 and 8 hours), but it's a lot of fun and well worth it. - Markus Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:53:52 -0400 From: Doug Moyer <moyer-de at salem.ge.com> Subject: BB98 - aging Folks, For my BigBrew '98 (TM) (R) barleywine, I would like to let it age in bulk in a Corny. Is this a good way to age the BW? Is room temp okay? (I don't have much space in my serving fridge.) Also, if I age it in the corny, do I have to worry about bleeding pressure occasionally? Any other concerns? (I'd hate to ruin all this work up to this point....) Thanks, Doug Moyer Salem, VA (Site 17) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:55:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Doctored Beer Tests Steve says they spiked a case of Budweiser to train for off aromas/flavours... Bud might not be the best choice because it is very high in acetaldehyde. Personally, I would use Miller or Coors, which I feel are more neutral (besides, they aren't mucking around with the names of any classic European beers)... Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:49:06 -0400 From: Doug Moyer <moyer-de at salem.ge.com> Subject: Hops & deer Folks, I recently planted three rhizomes that I got from FresHops. I surrounded the mound with a 24" high rabbit fence to keep the little buggers from munching my sprouts. But, thinking ahead, I am worried about our most prevalent pest, deer. I live in a heavily wooded area abutting the nearby city's watershed (i.e., no development or hunting). Because of this, the deer are bold as badgers. (Recently, one walked up to within spitting distance to eat the flowers by my front door, the whole time watching me carefully, ignoring my entreaties to spare my plants.) In my roundabout fashion, I am asking if the deer will eat the hop vines when they grow above the rabbit fence. Anyone have any problems with deer & hops? Doug Moyer Salem, VA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:37:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: yeast energiser/nutrient Brian summed up the use and content of yeast energiser and nutrient pretty well, but I'd like to add one more point. Different suppliers use various names for their products. The most basic yeast nutrient is diammonium phosphate (DAP). Some suppiliers call their DAP "yeast nutrient" and call the blend of various nutrients (vitamins, yeast hulls, peptides, amino acids, DAP, etc.) "yeast energiser." Others simply call their blend "yeast nutrient." It's all very random. DON'T use DAP. It is for winemaking and I've heard that it will give beer an off-flavour. The nutrient blend may be useful, but your wort has to be nutrient-deficient for it to help at all. If your supplier doesn't know what's in their "nutrient" or "energiser" then (besides starting to look for a better-educated supplier) you can tell DAP from the blend by simply looking at it. DAP looks like an all white powder or tiny round pellets. The blend is tan and is clearly a mixture of sevearl different chemicals. The blend will smell a little like yeast too (because it's an ingredient). The original poster never did say why they needed the nutrients... Was it because you are making something that is primarily adjuncts and simple sugars? Yes, then nutrients will help. Are you making mead or braggot/bracket (honey and malt)? Yes, then nutrients will help. Are you making a very strong all-malt beer? No, then the wort will have more than enough nutrients and OXYGEN at *PITCHING* time and your pitching rate will be your limiting factors and adding nutrients will most likely just increase the production of higher alcohols and esters. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:06:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: roots Tim writes: >I have also followed the thread on just what organic reactions are taking >place in beer. This is all fine and good, but I think that the point we all >became homebrewers is being missed. We all want to make and drink better >quality beer than we can buy. I had tons of chemistry in college including >biochemistry and organic chemistry. If I wanted to ply that trade, I would. > >If that is what I have to look forward to if I switch to all-grain brewing, >I want no part of it. > >I think we all need to get back to our roots, to brew good beer and have a >lot of fun doing it. That's a good point, but the beauty of brewing is that you can either approach it purely as an art, purely as a science or a blend of the two. I choose to approach it as a blend of the two. You may want to skip the science and simply view is as an art. I think the fact that you can approach brewing in so many ways and because you can change your view as your mood suits you (some very science-minded brewers just brew a "clean-out-the-pantry" batch once per year) is why it is so popular. The science is important if you have a problem with a particular batch or if you have a recurring problem or if you are trying to design a whole new way of doing something. The rest of the time, if you are happy with your gut feeling when deciding how many pounds of grain to use or how many ounces of hops to add, you can formulate recipes strictly by "feel." At it's simplest, all-grain is nothing more than mix crushed grains with hot water, stir, soak, drain, rinse and then you're basically doing the same as a full-boil (as opposed to concentrated boil) extract batch. I understand that sometimes all this technical mumbo jumbo we babble can be confusing, but just as the technologists have to be tolerant of the artists' questions and the subsequent answers, the artists need to be tolerant of the technologists' questions and the subsequent answers. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:15:13 -0400 From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca> Subject: going all-grain..../lessening the sparge Tim and Rich are debating/wondering what use to mash and lauter. I mash and lauter in the same 50L keg with the top cut out. I have a single ring, slotted, copper manifold in the bottom. It's great. I can apply direct heat for easy step mashing and I can effectively stir the mash as the small central ring doesn't impede things too much. Specifically though, Tim and Rich want to know about transfer etc. I really don't see why you'd want to. It's more expensive (extra vessels needed), it's more time-consuming, you'll lose heat and it will certainly introduce *some* oxygen into the mash (this may be harmful to the beer down the road). Rich feels that grains may get below the false-bottom and lead to a stuck sparge. 1) A few grains should easily get strained out during recirc (I always get a few husk bits in the first couple cups) and 2) I believe stuck-sparges are a relatively rare occurrence (aside from 75% wheat experiences). I suggest that you both try the single mash/lauter tun approach first. Many, many brewers use that method. - ------------------------------------------------ On the lessening the sparge debate: I made an ordinary bitter last week. Instead of my usual sparge to get the needed pre-boil volume, I added boiling water to reach mashout (~1.5 gallons), sparged with 4 gallons (just over the mash-in volume) and topped up with a little brew water. This didn't seem to affect my yield and the resulting beer seems to be smoother and generally richer than other batches which were sparged to 'completion'. Just a datapoint... cheers, Dave Riedel Victoria, BC, Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:25:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: hop suppliers Just to put in a vote for my favourite hop supplier: Freshops. They only sell hops, hop oils/extracts, rhysomes and t-shirts with hops on them. Oh, and you can buy oxygen-barrier bags from them. I know they have a web page, but my stupid browser is hosed at the moment (some problem with the Proxy Server). Dave Wills is the proprietor. Note that if you buy more than a pound it will come in a non-oxygen-barrier bag, so you better buy some O2-barrier bags (and one of those Eurosealers at Walgreens!). No affiliation, just a happy customer. Al. Return to table of contents
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