HOMEBREW Digest #2769 Thu 16 July 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Fetch the truck (David Kerr)
  Bad tasting starters (George_De_Piro)
  Pumpkin flavor contributions (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  375 mL Lambic/Champagne Bottles (Wayne_Kozun)
  3068 woes -- huh? ("Jay Spies")
  REPORT: Colorado Brewers Rendezvous (BrewsTraveler)
  Caution advised when using denatured alcohol (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Hop Aroma from Pellets vs Whole (Charley Burns)
  Pre-Chiller & ice (kenmiller)
  Sherry-like flavors/oxidation (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: "Jethro Gump Report" (FBI/BATF/ATF)
  Any good chemistry of brewing books? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: Carboy lime deposits (Richard Sewards)
  percentage by weight (Al Korzonas)
  Rigid insulation (fridge)
  Re: Short Lag Times (Alan Edwards)
  5 gallons before or after break material settles / stuck mash (Peter.Perez)
  Dryhopping lagers (Al Korzonas)
  force carb in a keg, then bottle? (Peter.Perez)
  Re: Europe boondoggle ("Bryan L. Gros")
  david monday's $20 soda kegs (Jonathan Edwards)
  chiller water temp (Michael Lausin)
  AHA/Infections/IM/Cornies (Kyle Druey)
  Re: Mold in the basements (Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK)
  Wy 3068 / Broken Carboys and Aerating / True Pint Measures (Marc.Arseneau)
  Deoxygenation (AJ)
  Re: History of the Stout.. (John Murphy)
  Malts and conversion times ("Chuck Bernard")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:47:29 -0400 From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org> Subject: Fetch the truck The estimable Jack Schmidling asks: > Who or what is Jethro Gump and why does someone name Rob Moline > post it? Theories regarding the Gump phenomenon abound, but I lean more to the Jethro side of the equation, that Gump is Moline's pool, er, cee-ment pond maintenance guy, can cipher IBU calculations (due to his education clear on up through the 4th grade), and has benefitted from Grannie's Ozark culinary tradition by creating a modern day cock ale variant, possum ale (not yet sanctioned as a beer style). His pursuits in the fields of brain surgery and big screen acting leave him no time to post to HBD, hence the Moline tag. Dave Kerr Needham, MA Thousands of miles from the hills of Beverly Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:47:16 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Bad tasting starters Hi all, There has been some talk about pitching the entire volume of a yeast starter. Some people don't want to do this because of the potential that the starter will taste bad and ruin the wort. Others may not want to pitch the entire starter because it is made from a wort very much different from the main batch. Allen writes in saying that he recently tasted his starter for the first time and found it to be pleasant, so he didn't understand all the hullabaloo. Starters only taste bad when they are made with constant aeration or agitation. If you treat the starter like a "normal" ferment (aerate only at the start, no constant mixing, normal temperatures, etc.) the starter will taste like young beer (as Allen discovered). If you use techniques to maximize the yeast growth, the starter will have some funny flavors (high fusel alcohols, aldehydes from oxidized alcohol, etc.). Should you dump the contents of a "maxi-growth" starter into your precious wort? I don't know; never tried it. I usually allow it to ferment out, dump off the somewhat clear liquid, and feed it wort that more closely matches my main batch a day or two before brew day. This way, the yeast is working in an environment more similar to the main batch, and I need not be concerned about off flavors being added to the beer. I am always surprised to hear (um, read) about people that don't taste their starters. That is damn courageous! How do you know that you aren't pitching your wort with an accidental Brettanomyces culture or somesuch? I almost always taste the wort just prior to pitching (and always taste it during the propagation process). The first (and only) time I didn't do this was this past Sunday night (um, Monday morning). Due to a series of small disasters (including the second brewing related flood of my dining room), I was quite tired and just pitched the yeasts without a thought. This was foolish, because I was using different yeasts for different reasons, and pitched the wrong ones into the different fermenters. Had I tasted the damn things first, this would never have happened. I guess I could have avoided this by simply reading the labels properly, too. Oops. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Pumpkin flavor contributions Just chiming in on the recent discussion re whether or not pumpkin contributes any discernable character to the finished beer. I'd have to say that I've been able to detect pumpkin flavors in some pumpkin beers (both my own as well as others) although they are certainly *subtle* I don't think this is too surprising considering how mild pumpkin is - it's hard for its flavor to shine through, especially when it has to compete with the "pumpkin pie" type spices typically included in these beers. If you want the pumpkin character I think you have to use a LOT of pumpkin meat in the mash and tone the spices way down. Happy Brewing! - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life." -Jim Squire -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins Hospital Dept. of Urology (410) 614-4974 __________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:36 -0400 From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com Subject: 375 mL Lambic/Champagne Bottles Has anyone tried using the 375 mL bottles that lambic come in for bottling their beer (I believe these are actually just 375 mL champagne bottles)? The mouth is a little larger, so regular crowns won't fit. Where do you get the larger crowns that fit these bottles (not to mention 750 mL champagne bottles)? Can they be bought at any mail order places? And do you need a special capper to cap these bottles? And what if I want to cork these bottles instead of capping. Do you need a special corker to cork champagne bottles? I have a corker for corking wine bottles, but I don't think this could be used for champagne bottles as the larger end would not fit through the corker. When it comes time to bottle my p-Lambics how should I bottle it? Should I use these champagne type bottles or regular bottles? If I use champagne type bottles should I use champagne corks, crowns or crowns and wine corks (as a few lambics are bottled)? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:21:42 +0000 From: "Jay Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us> Subject: 3068 woes -- huh? All - George DePiro said in #2767 that "after 3 months of contact with 3068, every Weizen that I have made suffers from autolysis damage, regardless of storage temperature." Just another datapoint, but I recently pulled a 3068 Weizen out from my cellar that was stored in a 2-liter growler flip-top bottle. This particular bottle was well into its 14th month of storage (cellar temps hover in the low to mid 60's). Expecting it to be thin and headless, I was surprised to see that it had a thick, almost creamy head, and the clove and banana phenols/esters were intact (although the banana had faded somewhat.) What gives here? Has Wyeast changed the composition of its 3068 over time? There was a mini-thread about the 1 strain/2 strain 3068 possibility, but all that I can say is that the Weizen that I brewed was remarkably stable and autolysis-free. BTW, it was primed, not force CO2'd; I don't know if this is a factor with others who have experienced problems . . . Drinking great year-old Weizen . . . Jay Spies Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:42:55 -0600 (MDT) From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com Subject: REPORT: Colorado Brewers Rendezvous Colorado Brewers Rendezvous The Colorado Brewers Rendezvous was held on Independence Day, July 4th, along the banks of the Arkansas river in Salida Colorado. The weather has overcast and even sprinkled for a short time but the atmosphere was very casual, the location was fantastic, and the beers outstanding! As typical for Broomfield's Keg Ran Out Club, we were in high attendance for the event. With most of the members choosing to camp out above the Arkansas river valley, my wife and I decided to rough it in our 3-room suite. With the event held in the small mountain town of Salida (with a fantastic view of the Mt. Otero, Princeton, and Harvard) the crowd was casual with virtually no lines waiting for a beer. Breweries may choose to bring as many styles as they wish, and talking shop with the brewers (who operate their own booths) makes the day very enjoyable. This festival is a must-attend event in my book! I chatted with Brewers Guild Director John Carlson about Il Vincino's Hop O'rama. Bottle openers was the topic with AHA Administrator Brian Rezac (a re-occurring discussion of ours) and I said hi to an old Aler, Dan Rabin. There were two beers that I vote as my favorite beer: Il Vincino's Hop O'rama, a beer brewed especially for the event; and Dillion Dam's Pale Ale (a dam fine beer). Unfortunately finding Il Vincino's sud may be difficult if not possible but definitely look for Dam's Pale Ale. John "The Brews Traveler" Adams http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler ----- Hefeweizen (2.5/4) Thunder Ridge A slightly sour beer and not quite enough banana/clove character. No big flaws but not quite to the Hefe-Weizen style. Hop O'rama (3.5/4 -- Best of Show) Il Vincino Big time hops, and I mean big time! A serious IPA for the serious hop head. This beer brewed especially for the festival. Not a simple hopped IPA but truly Hop O'rama! Way Pale Ale (3.5/4) Cheyenne Mountain Brewing Sweet and dry. Finishes dry in a unique way that is difficult to describe. Dry hopped with a pleasant malt sweetness. Improves the more you drink it. Misty Flips Red Ale (3/4) Blick's Brewing Co. Fruity and malty sweet with a dry finish. Nice red and amber hue that is both refreshing to look at and drink. With its dry hop character it should make a good before-dinner, appetizer beer. Pale Ale (3.5/4 -- Best of Show) Dillion Dam Brewing Company Nice hoppy aroma and flavor. Nice malt characters and very well balanced. Finishes dry but leaves a lingering sweetness. Should make an excellent backyard Bar-B-Que refresher. Pelican Smoked Porter (2.5/4) Redfish New Orleans Brewhouse A slightly peated taste. Some diacytl is present (probably from the smoked malt). Malty and not unlike a Dunkel but finishes dry a bit drier. - --- Brews Traveler(tm) Copyright 1998 by John Adams Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:49:16 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Caution advised when using denatured alcohol John Biggins recently wrote in about the use of "denatured" alcohol for sterilization purposes. I believe a word of caution is in order here. Denatured ethanol has had one or more nasty chemicals (amyl alcohol, camphor, methanol, acetone, etc...) added to it in order to make it unpalatable. While it is certainly much cheaper than buying pure ethanol (so-called "grain alcohol") from a liquor store and it will function perfectly well as a disinfectant it would probably be wise to limit the amount of denatured alcohol that gets carried over into the final product. Keep in mind that it takes a dose just 2 grams of methanol to cause irreversible damage to the retina of the eye! An interesting fact if you haven't already heard it - a 70% solution of ethanol is a more effective sanitizing agent that 100% pure alcohol. So dilute up and save money too! Happy fermenting! - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life." -Jim Squire -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins Hospital Dept. of Urology (410) 614-4974 __________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 08:12 PDT From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns) Subject: Hop Aroma from Pellets vs Whole I was leafing through one of Dave Miller's books last night and came across one of his Pilsner recipes. His brewer notes specifically said that if you're using whole hop cones, add the aroma hops 5 minutes from the end of the boil, while if you're using pellets for aroma hops, add them at knock out. Supports the theory that was being discussed here a few days ago (forgot by whom) that the crushing makes the aromatic compounds more easily extracted. I didn't realize that I needed to make this adjustment since switching to exclusively using whole hops. (Randy - I'm selling the Centennial for $1 per half pound and they're a very easy sell) Charley in N. Cal. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:54 -0400 From: kenmiller <kenmiller at geocities.com> Subject: Pre-Chiller & ice I too have been using a pre-chiller for my wort chiller. Not necessarily because of water temperature, but as someone else pointed out, the Home-boy Depot minimum length is 50 feet. I've gotten the impression that several people are buying ice to use in the pre-chiller and thought I'd pass along something my family has been doing for years. Anytime we need ice which won't be consumed in any way (pre-chiller, cooler for beer, etc.) we would fill up empty milk cartons with water and pop them into the freezer. Use a hammer to get the ice out. All the ice you need for almost free. (Here's the chance for someone to calculate the cost to freeze 1/2 gallon of H20.) Just another way to keep the cost of our brews down... Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:20:35 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Sherry-like flavors/oxidation Dave Williams writes concerning his suspicion that his beer is becoming oxidized. While it's true that oxygen is a prime suspect in beer oxidation it should be kept in mind that oxidation/reduction reactions are in fact exchanges of electrons and while oxygen is a good (and fairly ubiquitous in brewing systems) electron acceptor, it is by no means the only one. Other compounds, and many metals especially, are very good at shuttling electrons around. If you've really done a good job of eliminating oxygen as your prime suspect you might want to broaden your scope... I'm experiencing similar problems with the 4 cases of Big Quaf IPA that I brewed before the summer temps hit here in Baltimore. Unfortunately, I'm AC-challanged so can't brew in the summer heat and in anticipation of this I made a big batch of my favorite brew to carry me through the summer. I've been storing them under the house (crawlspace not a basement) which is a good 10 deg. F cooler than the outside temp. This apparently doesn't cut it as when it's 90 out it's still in the 80's where the beer is. I've definitely noticed an increase of "sherry-like" flavors coming up. Guess the only solution is to drink them at a faster rate! Cheers! - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life." -Jim Squire -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins Hospital Dept. of Urology (410) 614-4974 __________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:28:16 -0500 From: FBI/BATF/ATF <skotrat at wwa.com> Subject: Re: "Jethro Gump Report" >From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> >Subject: Re: "Jethro Gump Report" >Who or what is Jethro Gump and why does someone name Rob Moline >post it? >js Do Not Worry Good Citizens... We are hot on his trail.. -Janet Reno Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:35:30 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Any good chemistry of brewing books? Hi. I was wondering if there are any decent books out there on brewing chemistry and/ or brewing science? I just received a copy of George Fix's 1989 book and am truly dismayed by the poor quality of the information contained in it. It's hard to believe this book was proofread at all given the multitude of errors throughout the text. If it was proofed it apparently wasn't by anyone with even a high school level course in chemistry! Have such deficiencies been corrected in his latest book Principles of Brewing Science? Are there other books anyone can recommend...? Thanks, Alan - ------------------------------------------------------------------ -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins Hospital Dept. of Urology (410) 614-4974 __________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:42:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Sewards <rsewards at nettestca.gn.com> Subject: Re: Carboy lime deposits On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, "Kevin R. Martin" <kmartin at creston.heartland.net> wrote: > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:06:54 -0500 > From: "Kevin R. Martin" <kmartin at creston.heartland.net> > Subject: Carboy lime deposits > [snip] > > I recently left water in one of my carboys for several weeks. When I > emptied it, I found that there were little lime deposits all over the > inside, especially toward the bottom. I thought for a while about what to > do. I remembered, from my days as an Engineer for Bunn-O-Matic coffee > brewers, that they used to clean lime deposits from tanks & etc using white > vinegar. I shared an office with an Engineer that had worked for > Bunn-O-Matic for 30+ years. He told me that he put a pot full of white > vinegar through his coffee brewer about every 6-months to get rid of lime > deposits. Afterwards, he would flush the coffee pot with 15-20 pots of > water. > > I heated about a quart of white vinegar in a saucepan until it was hot to > touch, and dumped it into my carboy. I then sloshed it around for a while > and waited. In about 5 minutes, the lime deposites were gone. > > I just thought that I would pass this along for anyone who didn't have the > opportunity to work with someone who could advise them of white vinegar's > ability to remove lime deposits. I've had similar problems with something I've been told is "beer stone". I now clean my carboys with hot CLR (as seen on TV !), which, like vinegar, is acidic, before I sanitize them. What is this "beer stone" stuff ? Thanks, - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Sewards richard.sewards at nettestca.gn.com GN Nettest (Datacom Division) (905) 479-8090, fax:(905) 475-6524 55 Renfrew Drive, Markham, ON, CANADA, L3R 8H3 =* 121245 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:28:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: percentage by weight Michael writes: >> >>Unless otherwise specified, recipes specify the percentages of the >grist >> >>by the weight of the malt. > > I orginally posted this question and shortly after posting found the >answer in Ray Danials book DGB---It's by the extract, not the weight. I'm afraid I have to continue to disagree. I believe that Ray is wrong here if he means that this is the standard way of expressing a grist in a recipe. A question for the collective: When you say you made a beer with "50% wheat," do you mean you got 50% of the extract from wheat or do you mean that you used 5 pounds of barley malt and 5 pounds of wheat malt? When you write "...I used 10% Aromatic in my Altbier -- the rest being Munich" did you figure out points and then do the division or did you just use 3 pounds of Aromatic and 27 pounds of Munich? I *always* have meant percentage by weight and I'm willing to bet that no poster to the HBD or author of a brewing book (except for perhaps Ray and Lewis) has meant percentage by extract when talking about grists. The one case where I feel that percentage by extract may be more common is when you are talking about adding refined sugar (candi sucre in Tripels and Dubbels, for example). Here's where I think you have to read carefully to see whether the author meant extract or weight. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:00:35 -0400 From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu Subject: Rigid insulation Greetings folks, I've been made aware of a statement I made recently that may be misleading. In HBD #2766 I replied to a question by Randy Miner about his Tappan side-by-side fridge. Among other things, he asked about adding insulation to help minimize operating costs. In my reply, I suggested adding rigid insulation to the *outside* of the cabinet. This is a valid suggestion for his particular fridge. However, since many *freezers* have their condenser coil attached to the inside of the outer cabinet wall, adding insulation to the outside would quickly cause the freezer to overheat. I know of no domestic refrigerator/freezers that are made this way. Before adding insulation to the outside of *any* fridge or freezer, be sure not to block any air passages or grilles, and make sure the condenser coil is not located inside the outer cabinet wall. Sorry for any confusion. - --------------------------------------------- Hope this helps! Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com> Subject: Re: Short Lag Times Marc Battreall uses a *simpler* method of aerating and wonders why it appears to work better than an airstone: | | At pitching time I would normally aerate the wort for at least a half | hour, but this time I did not because I broke my last aerating stone. | So instead I poured the starter into the carboy and splashed the 80F | wort into it pouring it through a sanitized nylon screen. Got a pretty | good amount of foam of course and had to stop pouring a few times to | let it settle. Well, after that was done, I left it sit and came back | 2 hours later and the foam was gone but guess what was there, a nice | 1-2 inch bubbling, rising ever so slowly head of krausen. (Yes, krausen, | I know the difference between it and foam). I never have experienced | such a short lag time since I started brewing, even in my early days | with rehydrated dry yeast! Especially considering that I did not aerate | the wort or starter. Hmmmm..... But, you *did* aerate the wort! I'd say that you did an entirely sufficient job of aerating. I've contended on several occasions that using an aerating stone is a big waste of time and money. If you want to reduce your lag times, you would do better to concentrate on pitching enough yeast (making a starter), and worry a little less about geting the wort supersaturated with pure O2. I let the wort dribble into the carboy (from the CF chiller) and then simply shake the carboy to make it foam up. I then, usually, pitch an 800ml 3-day-old starter. I have *never* had a problem with lag times with these simple methods. But, this is just my opinion / experience! YMMV -Alan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:20:55 -0400 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: 5 gallons before or after break material settles / stuck mash My typical procedure for extract or partial mash brews is to chill in the kettle, rack into a carboy, top off to 5 gallons, let sit for a few muinutes until all break material settles, then rack off break into another carboy(to be used as the primary), pitch yeast and seal. My question is after the break settles(it never all settles out int he kettle for me) and I rack off of it into another carboy for primary fermentation, I probably no longer have 5 gallons. I would think that the break probably amounts to 1/2 to 1 gallon. Does this make sense? Should I be topping off a second time after racking off the break? Any criticisms of my process would be well appreciated. One more question - any hints/tips to avoid a stuck mash? I have started all-grain brewing not too long ago and I find the toughest thing to do is get the flow from the hot liquor tank and the flow from the mash/lauter tun in sync during sparging. I have had a problem with getting the mash stuck, even when there appears to be plenty of water on top of the grain bed. Thanks for all your help. Personal e-mail and/or reply posts welcome! Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:32:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Dryhopping lagers As promised, I did some research on the question of dryhopping in German and Bohemian Pilsners (and other lagers) and I'm reporting back. Since the primary issue here was Bohemian Pilsners, I first checked the articles on Pilsner Urquell in Brewing Techniques and Zymurgy. "Pilsner Urquell: The Brewery" by Darryl Richman (Zymurgy Volume 14, Number 2, Summer 1991) describes their processes in great detail yet there is no mention of adding hops to the fermenters. In "The History of Brewing Methods of Pilsner Urquell" (Brewing Techniques Volume 5, Issue 3, May-Aug 1997), Peter Ensminger explicitly states that Pilsner Urquell is not dryhopped. Several HBD posters (including me) have noted that dryhopped lagers simply do not taste or smell like their commercial equivalents. Papazian does not dryhop any of his lagers in TCJoHB. Noonan mentions dryhopping in both books, but specifically says that it is generally inappropriate for lagers. In Malting and Brewing Science, dryhopping is only mentioned in the same paragraph with British brewing practices and cask-conditioning. While this book is primarily about British brewing, they do go into some details about US and continental beers and practices. There was no mention of dryhopping in continental lagers. DeClerck says about dryhopping: "This practice is frequent in Great Britain for draught beers." I send email to Hubert Hanghofer asking whether he or his son (who is currently at Weihenstephan) has ever heard of dryhopping of continental lagers. I haven't gotten a confirmation from his son, but Hubert agrees with me that continental lagers do not appear to be dryhopped by any of the brewers and believes that Warsteiner (a beer that Dave Miller claims is dryhopped) is not dryhopped. Hubert also quoted a section from the "EBC Manual of Good Practice" in which it is stated that whole hop oils do not produce a "satisfactory flavour" The book specifically mentions "raw hop, tobacco and grassy" notes. It is also interesting to note that Hubert mentioned that Narziss (who wrote "Abriss der Bierbrauerei" -- what Hubert calls "our bible") describes dryhopping during lagering of Altbiers. My understanding is that the everyday Altbiers in Duesseldorf are not dryhopped these days... only the special batches made for their loyal customers (called "Sticke") are dryhopped by some of the brewers. I called Ralph Olson at HopUnion and asked him about it. He said he has never heard of dryhopping continental lagers, but would check with his contacts in Germany. He called me back and said that even his agent in Germany has never heard of a German or Bohemian brewer dryhopping a lager. Dave Miller dryhops all of his lagers. His claim that Warsteiner is dryhopped is what really caused me to email Hubert... the Warsteiner we get here is pretty beat up by the time we get it and when I'm in Germany, I tend to drink only the beers that I can't get here (a mistake I should correct on my next visit). I had theorised that perhaps there is a strong hop aroma in fresh Warsteiner, but that it fades in transit. Hubert seems to indicate this is probably not the case. I don't have Dave Line's book, but it has been posted in HBD that he does indeed recommend dryhopping lagers, although at a much lower rate than recommended by Miller. We should also remember that Line was British and his methods were no doubt influenced by British commercial brewers. Finally, in "Designing Great Beers," Ray Daniels (in the chapter summary page) says that Continental Pilsners may or may not be dryhopped. However, it is important to remember that Daniels'recipe recommendations are statistically derived from the 1993 and 1994 AHA National Homebrew Competition second round recipes and therefore are at the mercy of errors made by the entrants. I suspect that Miller's (errant) recommendation to dryhop lagers could very well be the reason that judges in the 1st round of the `93 and `94 nationals chose to pass 8 dryhopped Pilsners into the second round. In summary, I believe it is safe to assume that dryhopping should be reserved for American and English ales ("Sticke" and the Trappist ale "Orval" being two notable exceptions from Germany and Belgium, respectively). Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:45:07 -0400 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: force carb in a keg, then bottle? Is it possible to force carbonate in a keg, then bottle a six pack or so from that keg? I usually keg all my brews, but I'd like to be able to trade some with other brewers in my area. If this is possible (I think I've heard before that it is), what precautions are necessary and how do I do it? Thanks, Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:07:08 -0700 From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: Europe boondoggle >Subject: Europe boondoggle > >One thing I really hope will catch on here in the States, is every >glass over there has a line to mark the volume you are buying, whether >it was 25dl, 33dl, 50dl, or 1l. I did see people return beers that >weren't filled to above this line. Here in America, people are paying >a premium for "pints" that are actually only 13 oz. (steal a pint >glass from your local pub and try it for yourself). I don't know how >we can get this practice started, but I wouldn't be adverse to even >seeing a law enacted. I would also like to see the smaller 25dl Thanks for the notes. One guy in my brewing club is pushing for this idea. We really need a CAMRA-type of grassroots pull. This guy has called the state dept of weights and measures to stop by a pub and see if a pint is a pint. Needless to say, the pubs weren't very happy with the fines they got! Unfortunately, they missed the point and simply changed their menus from $3.50/pt to $3.50/large and they are happy. The sad part is, as you mentioned, that bars can now buy straight sided mixing glasses that hold 13 oz instead of 16 oz. I don't know why brewpubs can't suck it up and buy decent barware rather than these cocktail mixing glasses. Sure, they're nearly indestructable, but their beer deserves a better package. - Bryan Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website: http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:46:38 -0400 From: Jonathan Edwards <jdedward at us.ibm.com> Subject: david monday's $20 soda kegs David Monday <dmonday at thegrid.net: writes: >Dear Digest Readers, >I just got a line on some used soda kegs (5 gal, 7-Up types) at $20 >each. If anyone else is interested, e-mail me. >Dave in N. Cal. used? refurbished? this is a pretty steep price if not refurbished. sabco sells used soda kegs not cleaned or refurbished for $12. that's where i get mine....cheap prices, good product and pretty good service. jonathan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:37:48 -0600 From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net> Subject: chiller water temp Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:02:42 -0500 From: David Cato <dcato at peter.bmc.com> Subject: Re: hot weather wort chilling In HBD 2764, Randy Miner asks: > Last question: Any suggestions on chilling when the tap water is 82F ? > Maybe a chiller in an ice bath then into the wort? in hbd 2766, david cato wrote: > Like you, my tap water in the summer is over 80F, which makes it hard to > sufficiently chill the wort. > I use an immersion chiller and augmented it with a pre chiller in an ice > bath for several batches. It helped to drop the wort temp to around 75F, > which is a definite improvement over what the tap water alone could do. > To improve the chilling, I switched to running ice water thru the chiller. > The first time I tried this, I attempted to use a sump pump I had but the > restriction of the 3/8 inch chiller tubing was too great and the pump > wouldn't run for more than a few minutes before it overheated. A lower > flow pump would certainly work better, but I've decided to stick with the > gravity feed setup for now. i have a 17 gal wash tub that i put my 5 gal brew kettle into along with some water (not too much or the kettle floats), and 20# of ice that i freeze in zip lock bags a few days before. like someone else who posted, the pre-chiller is copper tubing (that i had wrapped around a paint can to keep the kinks out) about 20 feet long and the immersion chiller is 30 feet of copper hooked together with a few feet of food grade tubing. i stick a big chunk of ice inside the pre-chiller coil and sit it in the water. i use a swamp cooler pump (immersible, about $20) to pump the water from the tub thru the pre-chiller and then into the immersion chiller and then back into the tub. i make sure that the outlet hose causes some water circulation around the pre-chiller so it can do a better job of exchanging heat. i can cool 5 gals of wort to 65 degrees in about 15 minutes or so. this not only cools the wort quickly, but i save on water too. as always ymmv... michael lausin Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:04:49 -0700 From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net> Subject: AHA/Infections/IM/Cornies Alan comments on the AHA: >I don't see what the uproar is about. If you don't like what they >are doing, then don't support them! Ditto. I seem to have forgotten all about the AHA and Zymurgy ever since I discovered the HBD and BT a few years ago. Perhaps Deb Jolda of BT would like to take on an additional enterprise and start a new homebrewing organization than would enfold within it the BJCP and MCAB. What the heck, she already has the magazine, how much more work would this be? :) ******************************** Steve A (good to see you posting regularly again) brings up some good issues regarding sanitation. How does one measure the level of infection in beer just after kegging or bottling? ******************************** Dewayne comments on IM: >I contend that the proper way to gauge the effectiveness of IM is >by the amount of hot break left in your kettle. Don't also forget that some proteins may have been removed by the maltster (protein modification) and during the mash (proteolysis). The effects of these two would not show up in the post boil trub. Did we ever agree on the proper amount of IM to add to 5 gal, when to add it, and if it should be hydrolized before adding? ******************************* General Questions for the Collective: Who ferments with SS cornies, how do you use it (open/closed, etc.), do you use the dip tube to psyphon, how do you clean it? *************************************** Regarding slants: how do you flame the plastic cap without flaming your fingers and burning the plastic.... techniques please. Also thanks to all who gave me advice on how to fix my "Y" key on my keyboard. Popped the sucker off, cleaned it, and it now works like new. I think it is about time for another *microbrewery review* from the MI-demolition-man Eric Fouch (were you a former valedictorian at Gross Point HS?). Kyle just felt a quake here Bakersfield, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:17:12 -0400 From: Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK at ln.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mold in the basements Dwayne asks about mold control. I to have suffered from this difficulty fermenting in the South in a wet basement in the summer. I've found that spraying the fermenters, stoppers, and airlocks daily with a fairly stiff bleach/water solution keeps growth to a minimum. I don't worry about it with bottled beer; just wash 'em off before contests- appearances do count after all. With wine and mead, spraying the bleach on the corks seems to help. I've noticed that the fungi seems to grow on corks that are seeping a tiny bit. I suppose storing them upright would help, but then you've got dry corks and oxidation. So far I haven't had any beer or wine be ruined by the fungus amongus. Jeff York Tennessee Valley Homebrewers Knoxville, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:39:10 -0400 From: Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com Subject: Wy 3068 / Broken Carboys and Aerating / True Pint Measures Wy 3068 I recently (last October) brewed a triple-decoction Hefeweizen, using the 3068 yeast strain. The beer fermented at 13 deg C, and the result was spectacular! Possibly the best beer I ever made. Friends raved that it was the best beer they had ever tasted. By Spring time this year, the flavour of the beer had begun to degrade. And in May, I entered the beer in the NNEHBC in Maine. It still took third place in its category, but all three scoresheets reported what they thought was an infection. Either I have experienced my first infected beer in 40 batches, or this is a part of the "3068 phenomenon". Lesson: 3068 is great for making a good Hefe, but don't expect it to keep very long. ------------------------------------------------------- Broken Carboys and Aerating I cringe at hearing the story of the broken carboy. A carboy once slipped out of my hands onto a concrete floor. The damn thing actually BOUNCED! But no breakage, no spillage, no trips to the hospital. As a safe alternative to shaking the carboy, here's my aeration method. I have a small (8-10") length of 3/8" SS Tubing. At one end, I drilled 4 small holes. After chilling with an immersion chiller, I siphon the wort out of the pot with a copper scrubbing pad the end of the racking cane to keep the hot break and hops out, and I put the tubing with the holes into the other end of the hose. Put the holes closest to the siphon hose end. As the wort flows past the holes, air gets sucked in, providing a constant stream of little air bubbles to aerate the wort as it passes on by. Result - fully aerated wort ------------------------------------------------ True Pint Measures I like the idea of taking measuring cups (covertly) to pubs and measuring the quantity of draft served. The method of publicizing the results would have to vary from place to place: In Calgary, our CAMRA group published a "Good Pub Guide" for the city. Such a guide could easily incorporate a table of "advertised" vs "poured" quantities of beer. It is true that CAMRA in the UK has been fighting lately to have standardized pints served in pubs. But over there, I think the size of the glasses is regulated, and now the point of contention is the foam content. A joke I once heard tells of a Scotsman who asked for a pint in the local pub, and after receiving his beer, asked the barmaid "If ye were ta scrape off that foam, do ya think you could put a nip of scotch in there?" The barmaid responded that yes, she probably could, and the Scotsman pushed the glass back to her and said "Good! Then fill it with Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:52:46 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Deoxygenation Dirk Server suggests that a "pointy head" try deoxygenating with CO2 and take DO measurements. I did this with nitrogen when doing experiments on aeration (have to start with deoxygentated water if you're going to check how fast it takes up oxygen). Yes, of course it works, but, with nitrogen, at least, it took multiple pressurization, shaking and depressurization cycles to get down to "deoxygenated" levels. Sparging with nitrogen in a carboy while swirling also works and should work with CO2 as well. My notes indicate that it took about 5 minutes of sparging with N2 to get the O2 down to 7-8% saturation. My point is that these gas transfers take a little time to approach completion. As I've posted here before many times the rate of flow (out of water and into the sparging gas in this case) depends on the partial pressure difference between the liquid and the gas and the surface area of the bubbles. At first O2 flows from the water to the sparge gas much faster than it does when the O2 is largely removed from the water. The partial pressure of O2 in the water approaches 0 assymptotically. Another issue with CO2 is that while oxygen is leaving the water, CO2 is entering it, i.e. some carbonic acid is being formed which lowers the pH etc. This may or may not be a problem depending on the application (the CO2 could be removed by sparging with nitrogen). Nitrogen is less soluble than CO2 and is pretty much inert so I prefer it for deaeration though I'm only concerned with small quantities for experiments. Obviously, any other inert gas (argon) would serve as well. Finally, its not a point; more like a ridge really . Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:49:03 -0500 From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu> Subject: Re: History of the Stout.. Badger writes: >Does anyone know if the Stout, as an entity would have >appeared before the End of the 17th century? ie: when >did a stout start being called a stout,... > >...any good book suggestions? Classic Stout and Porter by Roger Protz Trafalgar Square; ISBN: 1853752207 John Murphy jbm at ll.mit.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:20:30 -0500 From: "Chuck Bernard" <bernardch at mindspring.com> Subject: Malts and conversion times While browsing some of the maltsters web sites (Schreier, DWC & Weissheimer) I found "generic" malt specs that listed "conversion times" for various malts. Many of these times were in the 15 - 25 minute range, with a few malts listed as having a 5 minute conversion time. The web sites for reference are: Schreier: http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_s.html DWC: http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_d.html Weissheimer: http://www.weissheimer.de/enspez.htm (note .htm, not .html) Granted these specs are "generic" but does this mean that the mash is fully converted within the time ranges listed. Anyone have a clue? Given that many of us mash for 60, 70 or even 90 minutes, what is the benefit of mashing for these durations. Why shouldn't I just check for conversion using an iodine test somewhere within the "conversion window" and mash out/begin sparging if the test(s) shows negative for starch. If I get full conversion after 25 minutes (like the specs state) what is happening during those last 35 minutes of the mash? What does it do to my beer? Is my mash ruined (IMMR)? Chuck BernardCh at mindspring.com Music City Brewers, Nashville TN - Music CityUSA Return to table of contents
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