---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Copper manifolds -- The vorlauf + sparge one... (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  pLambic (maybe) (kathy)
  What to do with my activated Wyeast? (Nicholas Bonfilio)
  Cleaning a copper counter flow wort cooler (Ian Lyons)
  Re: How To Use pH Strips? ("Brian Dixon")
  Malt discussion..........(Fred M. Scheer) ("Fred M. Scheer")
  Oatmeal stout gravity and tannins and Gott (Blink)
  King Kooker and First Wort Hopping (Blink)
  Heat Exchange Mashing (RobertJ)
  Yeast autolysis (Matt Comstock)
  Computer Brew Log Form ("Brian LeCuyer")
  No Subject (Biggiebigg)
  Re: Mashing vs. Extract: a big deal, or not? (Danny Breidenbach)
  Mashing vs. Extract: a big deal, or not? ("Darren Gaylor")
  Metallic Flavors (oberlbk)
  How much wort will an ounce of Whole/Plug hops absorb? (choroman)
  FWH: Aroma, not bittering, to 1st runnings ("Dave Draper")
  re: Mashing v. extract: time or money? (Tidmarsh Major)
  Gas Cookers... (Jonathan Nail)
  Source for 10-gal corny kegs? (Tidmarsh Major)
  SS Pots ("Stuart Baunoch")
  pH paper and electricity (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re:  Mashing vs Extract: a big deal or not? ("Greg Lorton")
  Re: Thermometer calibration/CO ("Michael Maag")
  Brewing Places in LA (Pasadena)? ("Steven J. Owens")
  Yeast Class (Steve Potter)
  Re: Brewing Log Form (pbabcock)
  Time for all grain (John Wilkinson)
  Portland Water/Thermometers ("A. J. deLange")
  RE: Bad Thermometers ("Steve")
  Re:Metallic Tastes (George Dietrich)
  Yeast questions (ThomasM923)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:52:15 -0400
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at axess.com>
Subject: Copper manifolds -- The vorlauf + sparge one...

Let's not forget that you can also have a copper vorlauf + sparge
manifold!

I'd used Phil's sparge arm for quite a while, but still needed a return
manifold for the vorlauf. You can't use one of those spinning things
'cause they'll get clogged up pretty fast. :-) After contructing my
return manifold, I also used it for sparging. It works *extremely* well.
Here's a crude 3-D drawing showing the basic design.... :-)

                            ||
                            ||
                        \\__||______//
                         \--||//----/
                            | /         
                     \\___ / /___//
                      \----------/

The whole thing is made from 1/2" copper pipe and "T" fittings. The
basic design forms an "H" when looked at from the top with a pole coming
up from the middle. On the four corners of this "H" are 90 deg. copper
fittings. These point directly *upwards* and should be kept just under
the mash level (as close to, but not above).

The wort (or sparge liquor) enters from the top and is distributed
evenly to all four corners. If one corner is not under the mash level,
the vorlauf/sparge liquor will flow from the other corners instead (path
of least resistance). So, keep all four corners *under* the wort level.

The sparge/vorlauf liquid flows in so gently you'll think it's not
flowing at all! I even did some tests with a flow rate of 7 GPM and you
could barely see the movement!

The best part if that you can use the same manifold for the vorlauf AND
sparge operations....

Happy Brewing!
js.
- --
Jean-Sebastien Morisset, Sr. UNIX Admin <mailto:jsmoriss at axess.com>
Our Homebrewery Page <http://www.axess.com/users/jsm-mv/homebrewery/>


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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:41:02 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: pLambic (maybe)

Last February I brewed my first pLambic and it went thru its phases but
without fruit.  Oct 20th I managed to get 10# of fresh raspberries and
mushed them up and stewed them at 160F,  cooled them and added to the
plastic bucket of Lambic stock. The yeast didn't get recorded but I'm
sure it was Wyeast for Lambic. 

Later I found a copy of the Lambic book by the Ass'n of Brewers series
and it said to add the fruit after a week of primary fermentation.  

What should I do next and how long should I wait to bottle?

cheers, and TIA......jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:50:08 -0700
From: Nicholas Bonfilio <nick at Remedy.COM>
Subject: What to do with my activated Wyeast?

I activated a Wyeast foil packet (the new "pitchable" one) a few days
ago and I was not able to brew do to a last minute glitch on my part.
The package swelled up as expected.  Is there any way to salvage the
activated contents of this packet?  Please email any suggestions
directly to me.  Thanks.


Nick



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:00:34 +0930 (CST)
From: Ian Lyons <ilyons at science.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Cleaning a copper counter flow wort cooler


I have just put together a counter flow wort cooler from copper tubing 
and PVC tubing.  Such a wonder of scrounging and improvisation!
Couple of care questions arise though!  Can anyone help with advice as to 
how it should be cleaned and sterilised?  Will (strongly oxidative) SMS 
corrode the copper?
Guess I should have thought of this first!
Thanks

Ian Lyons (ilyons at biochem.adelaide.edu ADD .au because that's where I am!)



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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:19:08 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: How To Use pH Strips?

Randy Erickson asked about using ColorpHast pH strips, and how to get them
to work properly.  I answered and gave my "dip it in, lay it on a saucer,
read in a few minutes" technique.  I have since then been kindly enlightened
by Troy Hager, who has done further experiments to get the pH strips to work
well.  Fortunately, he has water with pH ranging above 9!  That made it easy
to see if he was getting the strips to work well or not.  Troy pointed out
to me that the instructions state "immersed" not just "wet" for the strips,
and noted that my technique was still at risk of giving inaccurate results.
He suggests leaving the paper (active) side of the pH strip in at least a
teaspoon of the liquid being tested for about 5 minutes, then reading the
results.  Anyway, just thought I'd pass on this correction in technique,
just in case Troy didn't post it to the HBD.

Brewingly yours,
Brian




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 05:37:48 -0600
From: "Fred M. Scheer" <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: Malt discussion..........(Fred M. Scheer)

Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>  wrote
Subject: munich conversion/goods and process
Someone recently questioned the potential differences in diastatic power
of American vs. Continental Munich malts, derrived from an apparent lack
of conversion after a 4 hour mash smack dab in the sacharification
range.  While I cannot comment on the current condition of American
munich malts, Weyermann's have plenty of enzymes to do the trick.

Dave, I think we should know where the "Problem" Munich malt came from.
I can assure you that Munich Malt made from 2-Rowed Barley has enough
Enzymes to do the trick.
I don't comment on the Malt from germany that you mentioned, but
I know that US malt is good, or even better than Imports.
The statement can be proven by all the GREAT Craft brewed beers in
the US which use US malt for there nectars.

 
 Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>  wrote:

For German beers, use German malts.  For British beers, use
UK malts .  It really makes a big difference.  


Dave, does it mean that we need a German trained Brewmaster for
German style beers; and a english trained Brewmaster for english
style beers?? :-)
I brewed a lot of german style beers and english Ales here in the US,
and I used only US malt. Not that I dislike the imported malt's,
but when brewing on a large scale, you have to consider the cost's too.
But, I also brewed  5 gal batches with Homebrewers in our Pilot 
Breweries. We (I) never had any problems with US malt, there are 
enough enzymes in US malt to do the trick; I observed problems by
using Import's and applying the infusion mashing ( to go more in detail
would be a other posting).
I also believe using Darker Malt's for color in beers ( not color extracts);
smooked malt for smooked beers (not smooked extracts ); and that 
Specialty Malt should be made from 2 - Row Barley varietys.

Naff said

Fred M. Scheer
MALT MONTANA 
(on my way to Helena, MT - to the SLEEPING GIANT BREWERY, which will receive
MALT MONTANA'S first Malt shipment)


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:41 +0100 (BST)
From: beermonster at brewer.org (Blink)
Subject: Oatmeal stout gravity and tannins and Gott

> question: do i have too many unfermentables for the yeast to break 
> down? i
> guess it's possible that my thermometer was off.


Ignoring everything else, your mash temp at 154F (that's 68C) is on the 
higher side encouraging the alpha enzymes which produce more unfermentable 
sugars, but much more mouthfeel. If you're thermometer is reading a degree 
or two lower than it should, you'll be well intio alpha amalayse territory 
so an FG of 20 -30 wouldn't be unusual.
A while back I experimented with high mash temps on beers with nothing but 
pale and goldings and at around 68C  the effect was lovely if you like 
sweetish thick beers, but when it got to 70C the sweetness was almost 
unpleasant, unless you like ultra sweet stuff. The FGs were between 20 an 
30.
Can't comment on the yeast cos I've never used it.
As for colour, even relatively small amounts of black/chocolate malt or 
roast barley turn beers really dark.
Brewers caramel is another alternative used to colour adjust.

- ------------------------------------------
>  I have been extracting a ton of tannins from my grains
> and I am trying to isolate the cause.  Since I only have one 
> thermometer,
> it could be way off and I would never even know it.  Is this possible?

One of the commonest causes of tannin extraction from grain is over 
sparging apart from over temperature of grains. A high mash ph can 
contribute as well.
For the price of a thermometer, why risk duff beer? Any thermometer is 
only accurate to + or - a percentage of the overall scale, usually 
dependant upon the price you pay for it:-)

- ---------------------------------------------
Can someone please tell a Gott impaired UK brewer what a Gott cooler is, 
please? They seem to be mentioned rather a lot hereabouts.
A URL with a pic will probably save a thousand words.

Cheers

Graham
Head Brewer and Kegwasher, Blinks Brewery, Derbyshire, England.


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:42 +0100 (BST)
From: beermonster at brewer.org (Blink)
Subject: King Kooker and First Wort Hopping

Mark has a bunged up King Kooker

Mark,

You sound like you've got a King Kooker pk84 type burner. The casting that 
sits in the 'cup' bit has 24 flame orifices and its designed to work at 
high pressure?
The screw you mention just goes through both castings pulling them 
together with a nut under the base. It's nothing fancy. Don't be afraid to 
just saw it off and replace it. Once sawn off, the middle casting just 
falls out (unless its gunged in with debris then it may need a helping 
hand). There's no joint in it or anything to rip. Once apart you can poke 
all sorts down the burner shaft:-)

If all else fails Metal Fusion (the manufacturer) will sell you new burner 
castings complete with nozzles and air adjustor for around 15usd.

- ------------------------------

To whoever was asking about First Wort Hopping there's a good rundown at 
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/FWHsummaryDD0396.html or wherever the 
brewery url is these days.

Cheers

Graham
Head Brewer and Kegwasher, Blinks Brewery, Derbyshire, England.


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:01:47 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Heat Exchange Mashing

Peter.Perez at smed.com wrote

I am planning to convert my 3 tier gravity system (using Gott) to either a
SHMS or HERMS.  My original plan was to make it a SHMS, but the necessity
for a mash mixer kinda turned me off to this one.  More recently I have
been considering go the HERMS route, but this appears to have its own set
of difficulties (don't overheat the wort, watch out for hsa, sanitize the
pump and immersion chiller).  Being able to just pump hot water thru the
immersion chiller seems to make this option better to me.
- --------

Heat exchange mash heating, in general, has it's benefits; controlled,
gentle, fast heating, without overheating, 

Between the two systems SHMS and PBS HERMS,  PBS HERMS is much simpler to
operate, but requires a completely integrated system. 

You are correct to point out the concerns; HSA, & overheating (Sanitization
is not an issue) that must be taken into account and for that reason, I
would agree SMHS is easier to design/use with a pump, immersion chiller and
cooler, than is trying to set up a system similar to PBS HERMS.

Whichever way you go I think you will enjoy the benefits.

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:02:08 -0400
From: Matt Comstock <MComstock at shepherdcolor.com>
Subject: Yeast autolysis

A 6+ week old mead developed a yeasty off-flavor while bottle conditioning.
Perhaps this was caused by yeast autolysis?  I have noticed that many HB
texts warn of leaving beer in the primary over a yeast cake too long, and
advocate racking to a secondary within two weeks in order to avoid
autolysis.  But many of the same texts mention that HB is stabilized in the
bottle because the sediment contains yeast.  Why is beer over yeast *bad* in
the bucket but *good* in the bottle?

Matt


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:15:57 -0600
From: "Brian LeCuyer" <NOSPAM at megavision.com>
Subject: Computer Brew Log Form

Salutations!

I plan on creating a brew log form in Excel.  Being the generally 
lazy person I am, I don't want to re-create the wheel.  So how 'bout 
it, anyone out there have a form they would like to share with me?  
BTW the form should be built around all-grain brewing.

E-mail to ID in signature AT megavision.com, and ...

Thanks!

Brian
Columbus, NE
(Replace NOSPAM with bmlecuy)


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:28:54 EDT
From: Biggiebigg at aol.com
Subject: No Subject

congrats to the whitney project! awesome to see brewers pushing the envelope! 

<A HREF="http://www.morebeer.com/whitney.html">B3 BREWING EQUIPMENT</A>

jim huskey
salina, kansas


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:33:35 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <DBreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Re: Mashing vs. Extract: a big deal, or not?

Alan E. only likes mashing because his initials (apparently) are so cool.

As for my humble opinion on the matter, going all-grain is an investment of 
money and an investment of time, but not a great deal of either.  The time 
matter gets better.  As Alan points out, some of the apparently wasted time 
would have been spent anyway.  Also, as you brew successive batches, 
you'll find ways to improve your time efficiency.  The first time I mashed, I 
think I sat and watched it the whole time ----- kind of like watching grass 
grow, and about as useful.  Every time since, I've found another way to 
speed things up.  Last time, my wife said "You're finished already" (which 
is not a pleasant thing for a guy to hear under some circumstances .... in 
this case, I didn't mind).

Finally ---- the whole thing boils down to trying it out and seeing if you like
it.  
As Alan pointed out, the alchemy of doughing in and seeing this starchy 
mess in the mash tun, and ending up with sweet wort, is ALMOST as cool 
as the difference between what goes into and comes out of the fermenter.

After being a happy extract brewer, then becoming a happy all-grain brewer, I'm
glad I didn't mess around with the partial grain type step.  One other 
seldom told secret ---- even after doing all-grain, you can still whup up a 
quick extract batch if you want .... you won't go blind.
- --Danny
 


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:46:47 -0700
From: "Darren Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com>
Subject: Mashing vs. Extract: a big deal, or not?

Alan Edwards asks:
Is mashing really a time-consuming pain, or is that just a myth?

Myth.  Like you, when I went all-grain, I never looked back.

Probably the most difficult part of all-grain brewing is finding a place to
store the equipment.  When I was using extracts, I could fit all my
equipment into a grocery bag (carboy excepted.)  These days, a whole corner
of my garage is devoted to this obsession.

My "big" equipment includes 2 15 gallon kettles, 3 coolers for mash tuns, 1
cooler for a lauter tun, 1 cooler for a HLT, 2 burners, and nine fermentors
(plus kegs, bottles, and all the usual junk).  It all stacks together real
nice, but it does take some volume.  This lets me brew 2-3 10 gallon batches
on a brew day for only adds a couple more hours than a 5 gallon batch would
take.

Darren Gaylor
Vancouver, WA



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:02:05 -0400
From: oberlbk at NU.COM
Subject: Metallic Flavors

Reporting back on my metallic taste.  The majority of people have
sugguested that the flavor is coming from oxidation.  In off-line
conversations with Al K., he has previously pointed to oxidation as a cause
of some astringincy that I was getting.  Therefore, it would seem that this
could be the cause of both problems.  I believe the cause to be some
ridiculously old hops that I use.

Here is the game plan, assuming free time to do this.
1.  Fill keg with water and carbonate.  I hooked this up last night.  If it
tastes like metal, it is either the keg or the gas supply.
2.  Fill keg with water and let it sit.  Taste it.  If it tastes ok, then
it was not the keg and is the gas supply.
3.  If step one does not have the metallic flavor, blame it on old hops.
4.  Buy a premade kit beer.  Make the can.  Add no hops or specialty
grains.  If that does not have the metallic taste, it was the old hops.  If
the metallic taste exists, I open a soda water business.

I will post my results.  Maybe they will help somebody.

Thanks for all of the help.

Brent Oberlin
East Hampton, CT




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:12:56 GMT
From: choroman at yahoo.com (choroman)
Subject: How much wort will an ounce of Whole/Plug hops absorb?

Hi All:

I was working on my water needed analysis for an up comming brew
session and was wondering "How much wort is absorbed by an ounce of
whole or plug hops?"  Does anyone have information on this?

Thanks in advance,
Ed


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:17:19 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: FWH: Aroma, not bittering, to 1st runnings

Dear Friends,

In #2857, Jeremy Price sung the praises of first wort hopping 
(FWH), but made one slight misstatement: 

"First Wort hopping (FWH) is just as it sounds; you add your 
bittering hops directly to the first  runnings of the wort."

This is not so; one adds the hops that would have been the aroma 
addition at this stage, and adds the bittering hops as per usual.  
My beer page contains a summary of the Brauwelt International 
article that was the impetus for Dr. Fix's bringing FWH to the 
Digest community's attention some years back, where you can get 
more details.

Cheers, Dave in Dallas

- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
Just what we need, another wanker with an attitude!
    ---Rob Moline (aka Jethro Gump)



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:25:42 -0500
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: re: Mashing v. extract: time or money?

I'll bite, Alan--I think time is a factor, but money really isn't.

The additional equipment necessary for simple infusion all-grian mashing
(a cooler and a false bottom/manifold/easy masher) isn't very expensive,
and it is quickly ofset by the lower cost of barley malt v. malt
extract.

Time is a significant difference.  I can do an extract batch in about 2
hours, but a full mash takes me from 4.5 to 6 hours.  That's 2 to 3
times as much of a time investment.  Is it worth it? For me, absolutely;
for my wife, no, so we alternate between extract and full mash.

I'll have to agree on the (non)hassle factor: mashing is cool!  I enjoy
stirring the grain and water together and watching it get thinner as the
starches convert. I further agree that a partial -mash will take about
as long as a full mash.

So in response to your question, "I want to ask you all:
Is mashing really a time-consuming pain, or is that just a myth?":

Time-consuming, yes; pain, no.

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:27:15 -0700
From: Jonathan Nail <jnail at dvdexpress.com>
Subject: Gas Cookers...

Greetings!

Planning my conquest of the world of all-grain brewing and am
contemplating which outdoor gas cooker I should be using. I plan on
using a converted keg or largish brew kettle. Any suggestions?

I have been down to China Town in L.A. on several occassions and a Asian
Restaurant supply house has this (cannot tell exactly what type of metal
it is) gas cooker base. Its jets are many and spread out (radial
pattern, quite broad, about 15" in diameter or more), kind of squat,
sturdy, heavy, and cheap. Has anyone ever used one of these gas cookers
before? Anyone know the BTU output? When I asked the store clerks, they
were dumbfounded... Thanks!

Also, what would anyone suggest as my first all grain brew? (Ale
preferred... not ready to venture out into Lager-Land)

Cheers!

Jonathan Nail
*******************
DVD EXPRESS, Inc.
http://www.dvdexpress.com



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:35:17 -0500
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Source for 10-gal corny kegs?

John Wilkinson's recent post describing his 10-gal corny keg fermenter
reminded me that I've had it in the back of my mind for awhile to
eventually switch to a stainless primary fermenter, and a 10-gal
Cornelius keg seems to be the most likely candidate.  I have yet to find
such a beast, though.  Does anyone know of a source or sources for 10
gal soda kegs?

Tidmarsh Major
BIrmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:46:51 -0400
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: SS Pots

Ok, Let me make an a*s of myself.   My thought process is that if its
stainless steel a magnet wil stick to it.

I have seen many pots advertised in Ames and Walmart and stainless steel
that were really cheap. Like a 20 qt for $ 30.00 .  I checked and a magnet
did not stick to it.  My assumption was it was aluminum,.  Was my though
process wrong?  Are these some sort of coated pots.........
If so, what would an expected price range be for SS from a resteraunt
supply store..????
20 - 25 qt


Stuart Baunoch
sbaunoch at homeruns.com
Inventory Control Specialist
Hannafords Homeruns
Sturbridge, Massachusettes




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:08:51 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: pH paper and electricity

"Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil> brings up pH paper again.

This seems to be a recurring thread, so I will repost something I posted
here in Digest 2655:

> I repeatedly see the suggestion here to buy the type of pH paper
> that has several spots of different pH paper on a plastic strip.
> There is nothing inherently better about this type--the pH
> sensing mechanism is the same as "normal" pH paper and as a rule
> you are usually buying pH papers in a range you don't need to get
> one in the right range, and in an expensive package to boot.
> 
> We have this type of pH paper in my lab and they suck!  I forget
> the brand, but they DO NOT agree with our pH meter.  Several years
> back I ordered one of every brand of pH paper in one of our
> supply catalogs (Fisher or VWR I believe) that covered the brewing
> range.  I found pHydrion brand to be the best in terms of accuracy.
> Other benefits of this brand are that it is available in a very
> wide assortment of ranges and that it is very cheap.  I use two
> for brewing: one reads from 3.0 - 5.5 (I have very acidic water),
> and the other reads from 4.8 - 6.7.  Both of these are readable
> to +/- .1 IMO if your solution is not too colored.  They are also
> accurate within the measurement error when reading a solution of
> pH 5.30 100mM succinate buffer.  I have also ordered the paper that
> ranges from 4.5 - 7.5 which would seem quite useful, but the
> color produced by pH 5.3 is a tannish orange that shows a lot
> of interference with beer color (the others are greenish
> in the critical range).  I just replaced my supply and I got
> 5 rolls (one roll lasts me about 5 years) for ~$5.
> 
> I don't know the logistics of trying to buy from these types of
> catalogs for private individuals, but your homebrew store can
> get them for sure.  Reading the label, they are made by Micro
> Essential Laboratory, Brooklyn NY 11210, so maybe you could
> go direct.
> 
> The standard disclaimer applies, I'm just a very satisfied
> customer.

******************************************************************
jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) writes about electricity:
> Don't ever assume the person before you did their
> job correctly.  I won't again.

Having replaced 95% of the wiring in my own house and helped numerous
friends and family with wiring in their homes I would say that it is safe to
assume, as long as you assume it was done WRONG, because I've never seen a
house that had it all done right.

Everyone should get one of those little circuit testers from the hardware
store, even if you don't use electricity in your brewery.  You plug it into
an outlet and little lights tell you if anything is wrong.  Fancier ones
will cross a high resistance resistor between hot and ground to test a GFCI,
but I believe that the GFCI test button is supposed to be a good test of
that GFCI protection, so this feature may be unneccesary.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:55:03 -0700
From: "Greg Lorton" <glorton at cts.com>
Subject: Re:  Mashing vs Extract: a big deal or not?

In HBD #2857, Alan Edwards commented about the "joys" of mashing in
response to Pete Perez's comment that he doesn't always have time for an
all-grain batch, and then invited comments from others.  So here goes...

I pretty much share Alan's enthusiasm for mashing.  I switched to all grain
mashing five years ago (after six years of extract brewing) and I haven't
looked back (except for an occasional mead?).  I get a personal sense of
accomplishment when I turn malted grain into beer.  That sense of
accomplishment wasn't as great when I was pouring cans of extract into a
pot of water.  Also, tinkering around with the brewing process is a lot of
the fun.  And the beers seem better, too.

For me, brewing usually takes 5 or 6 hours for my small (3 gallon) batches.
 And like Alan, not all of it is wasted time.  I do a two-step infusion
(whether the beer needs it or not!).  During the protein rest and then the
starch conversion, I'm usually reading the Saturday HBD.  (Don't read HBD
in a different room while the wort is coming to a boil.  I made that
mistake ONCE!)  I've got a spreasheet that does a good job of telling me
how much hot water to add to hit my desired temperatures, so I'm usually
not fiddling around with that.

For me, the part of the process that requires the most attention is
lautering and sparging.  I try to time the brewing so that lautering and
sparging is during halftime of the football game I want to watch.  I found
that cleaning the equipment right after I've used it (instead of waiting
until everything is done) makes that chore a lot more bearable. 

Alan speculates that money, rather than time and hassle, might be the big
impediment. I also acquired my all-grain equipment a little at a time, and
"practiced" using it on extract/partial mash batches.  But when I looked at
how much I "invested" for the extra equipment needed for all-grain brewing,
I figured that it paid itself off in 10 batches (110 batches ago!), just in
the savings of grain versus cans of extract.  (I did that calculation just
in case my wife asked whether it was worth it.  She never asked, and has
used the equipment to make several batches of her own.)

Again, it's too much fun to go back!

Cheers!
Greg Lorton
Carlsbad, CA


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:32:14 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Re: Thermometer calibration/CO

Brent asks:
One more question.  Has anybody ever bought a thermometer which was reading
the wrong temp.?  I have been extracting a ton of tannins from my grains
and I am trying to isolate the cause.  Since I only have one thermometer,
it could be way off and I would never even know it.  Is this possible?
>>>>
Brent, go to
http://alexandria.apo.nmsu.edu/site/directory/kgloria/bpH2O.html
for a chart which shows the boiling point of water based on altitude. Print
the chart.
Next go to AltaVista and ask for alitiude of cities.  Up comes a finder to
enter your city, or one nearby.  Get the altitude and determine what the
boiling point of water will be at that altitude on the chart. (Staunton VA
is 209F).  Then boil water,insert thermometer, and set. to appropriate temp.
(on the dial/probe ? type, hold the nut in back of the dial with a small
wrench and turn the dial with your hand).

Someone said:
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:41:24 EDT
From: Posse4000S at aol.com
Subject: Vent. Hood
Pete asked (10/22/89) about installing a ventillation hood in his basement
in
order to safely use his propane cooker... snip....
 ...If you trust the OSHA standards, they say the exposure threshhold of CO
is 50
ppm and the 8 hour exposure limit is 25 ppm...
>>>>
The 8 hour time weighted average   osha permissible exposure limit (PEL) for
CO is 50 ppm. (part per million) This is for 8 hours per day for 40 years.

According to SAX,  CO has an affinity for hemoglobin 210 times greater than
for O2,  and by combining with hemoglobin renders the latter incapable of
carrying oxygen to the tissues.  A concentration of 400 to 500  ppm in air
can be inhaled  without appreciable effect for 1 hour.  1 hour exposure to
600 to 700 ppm will cause barely appreciable effects. A similar exposure to
1000  to 1200 ppm is dangerous (most people have headache and blue
fingernails before this point).  A concentration of 4000 ppm and over is
fatal in less than an hour.  Good CO monitors are around $50, a canary is
cheaper. 8*)

Mike (Va OSHA Inspector/Industrial Hygienist)
Brewing at 1,379 ft in the Shenandoah Valley



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:26:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Brewing Places in LA (Pasadena)?

Folks,

     I'm in LA, specifically Pasadena, working a contract.  I have
friends out here, whom I've kept promising a sample of my humble
homebrew efforts.  Unfortunately, the only stuff I had when it came
time to pack was 25 gallons in cornelius kegs.  

     I'm going to be out here for at least a couple months, so I'd
like to brew a batch or two.  But I need to get the supplies, parts,
etc.  Can anybody suggest a good brewing supply place out here?  Also,
there's this place called (I think) the "Brewcase" that I've heard
from folks is supposed to be some sort of homebrewers club.  Has
anybody heard of it?

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:26:42 -0500
From: Steve Potter <spotter at meriter.com>
Subject: Yeast Class

Dear Collective,
Just a quick reminder that the hands on yeast workshop will be held
Saturday, November 7 from 9:00 am to 1:00 pm at the Milwaukee area
technical college west campus in West Allis, WI.  The class will cover
use of the microscope, cell counts, staining, pitching rate calculations,
and acid washing.   The class will be taught by Laurel Maney (brewing
consultant), John Brazin (Staff Microbilogist at Sprecher), Richard
Becker (Head brewer at JT Whitney's), and William Maca (Senior
Research Microbiologist at Miller).  This class is designed to give you
"hands on" experience.  The cost is $65.   If they have fixed their touch
tone registration system, you can register at (414) 297-7462.  

If past experience is any guide, the class will be top notch.

Steve Potter
Madison, WI


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:47:13 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Brewing Log Form

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 "Brian LeCuyer" <NOSPAM at megavision.com>  wrote:

> I plan on creating a brew log form in Excel.  Being the generally 
> lazy person I am, I don't want to re-create the wheel.  So how 'bout 
> it, anyone out there have a form they would like to share with me?  
> BTW the form should be built around all-grain brewing.

Sorry, Brian: can't help at the moment, but you remind me of something: I
had developed a form that I was rather fond of, and in which I recorded
(and transcribed) about every recipe I had ever brewed. It was lost in
that hard drive crash of July 1997. The glimmer of hope is this: I had
given someone a copy of the form (alas: not with the recipes). I do not
recall whom I gave it to, but if that person is reading this, PLEASE,
PLEASE, PLEASE!!! E-mail my precious form to me! (And you can send Brian a
copy, if you like, too!)

Thanks!
 -p



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 15:11:17 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Time for all grain

There has been some discussion about the time it takes to make an all grain
brew.  I usually spend all day Saturday when I brew and at one point thought
perhaps that was too much time.  Then I said to myself, "Self", I says, "this
is a hobby, so what?"  Guys spend all day Saturday playing golf and when they
get through, they are out of beer.  When I get through, I have replenished my
supply.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:50:41 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Portland Water/Thermometers

Michel Brown asked for comments on a water analysis. Judging from the
softness of the water and the mention of Bull Run, I conclude that
Michel is in Portland, OR (I can't do this for just any city but as I
gave a talk on water at the AHA conference I'm a little familiar with
the water there). Portland does use chloramination. See
http://www.water.ci.portland.or.us/3faq.htm and related pages. They do
not report the amounts of free chlorine and chloramine but only state
that all samples contain chloirine residuals. As doses change over the
course of the year and the relative amounts of chlorine and chloramine
vary according to many factors, a reported value wouldn't be very
meaningful anyway. Assume chloramine is present and treat it with
Campden tablets or let the water stand exposed to circulating air for
several days to be sure the chlorine and chloramine are gone.

As for the alkalinity: it is quite independent of hardness. Pure water
itself  has an alkalinity of about 2.5 mg/L as CaCO3 (this is 50 times
the number of mEq/L of acid required to lower the pH of pure  water to
4.3 which is what is done during an alkalinity test). Pure water with
sodium carbonate added to it would indicate substantial alkalinity. In
both cases the hardness would be 0 as hardness is a measure of calcium
and magnesium only. In the data posted we have total hardness of 6.3 ppm
and alkalinity of 7.9  which excedes this so that out of the 7.9 ppm of
alkalinity  6.3  ppm is paired with  Ca/Mg (the temporary hardness is
6.3 ppm) and the remaining 1.6 isn't . This latter is probably the
alkalinity of the water itself as mentioned above (depends on exactly
how they measured alkalinity).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Brent Oberlin asked:
>Has anybody ever bought a thermometer which was reading
>the wrong temp.?

Yes, several. The pertinent question is "Wrong by how much?" The usual
checks, ice water and boiling water (correcting boiling water
temperature for altitude if different from sea level) should give a
general idea as to whether the thermometer is totally out of whack or
not. If it's a liquid thermometer look for bits of the liquid separated
from the main column above the column. If its the bimetal dial type with
adjustable scale, set for the best compromise reading at boiling and
freezing. If electronic, look for a calibration procedure in the
instructions.



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:56:48 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Bad Thermometers

Greetings, all.

Brent asked about bad thermometers.

A resounding YES - thermometers can be off - by a
considerable amount.

When I first went to all-grain last year, all my beers came
out with a real high finish gravity, even when I mashed at
150F. Suspecting my floating thermometer, I bought a new
dial thermometer for mashing. The two thermometers read 9
degrees apart in room temp water. The floater read lower by
9 degrees, which means that if the dial therm was accurate,
the lowest mash temp I actually used was 159F! No wonder my
beers had high FG. Using the dial corrected that problem. I
have since purchased a cheap alcohol lab thermometer for
calibrating the dial (it is adjustable) and the floater is
11 points below what the new one reads.

Alan asked us to post our opinions about all-grain vs
extract.

I used to do 2 5gallon batches of extract based (with
specialty grains) brews back to back in about 5 hours in the
kitchen. Last Sunday, I brewed 2 8 gallon batches of all
grain back to back in about 8 hours. During that time, I was
also able to bottle 2 cases and watch some football too. 16
gallons in 8 hours is 2 gph; 10 gallons in 5 hours is 2 gph!
So, for the same time investment per gallon, I actually
filled and capped 51 12 oz bottles in 0 minutes. Hows that
for a record! Needless to say, I'm not looking back either.

Hoppy Brewing,

Steve
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, Tennessee
http://home.att.net/~stjones1




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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:10:52 -0400
From: George Dietrich <gad at flash.net>
Subject: Re:Metallic Tastes

Brent writes:
>My wife bought me an entire corny keg system a while back - now she's a
>keeper.  The tanks were used, but in very good shape.  Prior to this time I
>was using bleach to sanitize, but concern for my newly acquired stainless
>kegs caused me to look for something new.  I bought the Five Star kit - PBW
>and Star San and have been using it ever since.  

So I assume that you never tried using bleach to sanitize your cornie kegs
(good decision) and that the only sanitizer you have used is the Star San,
yes?

>.  My first 3 batches tasted like metal coming out of the tap.  I
convinced myself that it was
>some sort of problem with the cold plate.

Don't believe so since you got the same results with the stainless coils.
BTW cold plates generally have stainless tubing cast into the aluminum block.

>Knowing all of this, I have convinced myself that it is the CO2.  

I don't think so.

>I checked out the inside of my kegs.  I cannot find any signs of rust.

You probably won't.

I have to be careful with this because I promised I would.  I have but a
couple points of my own data to back this up and I'm working on more.

When you used Star San to sanitize how did you do it?  Did you let it soak
in the kegs for and extended length of time before you filled them?  By
extended I am talking hours to days,  not the one minute that the
instructions call for.

Have you noticed any haziness to your beer after putting it in the kegs
that you didn't notice when the beer was in the carboy?

Do you detect a petroleum like odor/taste in the beer?

I would like to suggest that you sanitize your keg with standard iodophor
the next time you are going to fill them.  Let the HBD know if the metallic
flavor disappeared with the change in sanitizer.

I have had a couple of bad experiences with beer put into kegs after using
Star San that I never had using iodophor.  I have spoken with Five Star on
the subject and I believe that they running some tests as am I.

I am not saying that Star San is causing these problems but there have been
some coincidences that I can't readily explain.  The folks at Five Star
have been very good in discussing this with me and I believe that they want
to help.

If anyone would like more details e-mail me and I will explain but I don't
want to go into detail in the general forum because it is not necessary
right now.

If anyone else has noted anything odd about their beer after using Star San
that you couldn't explain please share it with the group and especially
with Five Star.

Brent I hope this helps.


George

http://www.flash.net/~gad/homebrew.htm



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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:03:41 EDT
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Yeast questions

I have read some good things about the Cooper's strain of dried yeast and I
will probably use some soon. I've never used dried yeast before so I am a
little unclear about something: Is it a good idea to repitch the yeast into a
new batch of wort? I understand that the methods used today to process dried
yeast are much better than the bad old days, but is there a possibility of
wild yeast getting the upper hand? From what I've heard, the process of drying
yeast increases the chance of wild yeast contamination.
Another question: Has anyone used a kolsch yeast like Wyeast 2565 for a high
gravity (1080-1100) beer? 

- ---Thomas Murray
   Maplewood, NJ 


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---