HOMEBREW Digest #2886 Fri 27 November 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Scorching the mash / DAP as yeast nutrient / CO2 toxicity ("George De Piro")
  Home growing (Al Korzonas)
  Copper in Beer (Al Czajkowski)
  Copper Oxide Dissolution, Copper Plating (John Palmer)
  The Brewmaster's Dinner (DaskeF)
  Bottle Bombs ("David R. Burley")
  sticky rye (Al Korzonas)
  oatmeal stout ("Bryan L. Gros")
  All Munich By Mistake (Vernon R Land)
  hbD (Tim Anderson)
  Cheap 240VAC GFI??? (ThomasM923)
  Heating elements for boilers (ThomasM923)
  Pronouncing ("C and K")
  Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  re: Labeling Bottles (Mark Tumarkin)
  Removable bottlelabels ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Say WHAT?!? ("J.W. Schnaidt")
  Re: Say WHAT?!? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Furstenberg (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Site (sic) glass (Jeff Renner)
  Question re: Diacetyl Rest (LEAVITDG)
  question re: flaked/ roasted barley (LEAVITDG)
  Re: . . . pronounce . . . ("John A. MacLaughlin")
  Clear Beer ("silent bob")
  Mixing Yeasts (Ted McIrvine)
  Clear Beer, Steer Clear? (Tim Anderson)
  Advice needed with beets ....for colour (David and Camilla Taylor)
  Labeling Bottles (curt j tuhy)
  Scccrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaakkkkk! (pbabcock)
  And another thing... (pbabcock)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:40 -0800 From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> Subject: Scorching the mash / DAP as yeast nutrient / CO2 toxicity Hi all, Jay responded to Badger's question about the consequences of a scorched mash. Jay omitted one very important point: the flavor of the beer made from a scorched mash can be very much like an ashtray! A friend of mine scorched his decoction once while making a Hefeweizen (hay-fa-vI-tsahn). The resulting beer was quite ashy tasting. It did mellow out a bit, after a really long time. I don't advise trying it at home. Should you scorch the mash and fear the flavor will ruin the beer, I read an interesting trick in a cookbook: plunge the pot into cold water before transferring the contents out of it. Don't scrape the burnt crud off the bottom into the next vessel, either. I have no idea if this actually would help or not, but it could be worth a shot. ------------------------------------ There is always talk about yeast nutrients, especially diammonium phosphate (DAP) which is a very cheap (and therefore common) nitrogen (N) source in commercially available yeast nutrients. DAP is actually not a great N source for yeast; they will preferentially take up the amino acids in a wort before they reluctantly switch over to DAP. Better yeast growth can be obtained by using a wort with plenty of free amino acids. You can make your own high FAN yeast nutrient at home by simply autolyzing some old yeast. Take some harvested yeast (or a couple of packets of dry yeast) and make a slurry from it. Heat it to 40-50C (100-122F) for 8-12 hours and voila (vwah-lah)! Autolyzed yeast! When yeast autolyze they release enzymes that break down proteins into free amino acids (which leads to the dreaded "headless Weizen" syndrome discussed here a few months ago). Let it settle and use the clear broth as a yeast nutrient (boil it first to sanitize). You can also learn what autolyzed yeast smells and tastes like while doing this (spike a small amount of this into beer to get an idea of what it would be like in a more realistic concentration). This may seem like a lot of work, and maybe it is, but that is up to the individual. If you have a lot of yeast on hand that you are just going to toss, why spend money on commercial yeast nutrient when you can make it yourself? --------------------------------- Tom tells a tale of two fermentations, and notes that the only difference between the one that stuck at 1.030 and the one that finished is that the stuck ferment had very little trub. He postulates that the trub may have acted as nucleation sites for the CO2 and therefore allowed it to bubble off freely, thus reducing the effects of CO2 toxicity in the wort that finished. While he may very well be correct, there is a much simpler way to explain the 6 point drop in gravity he saw in the 24 hours after swirling the fermenter: was the first hydrometer sample degassed? It can make a difference in the gravity reading... This would be a neat area of experimentation (if it isn't already discussed ad nauseum in the commercial literature). Actually measuring the CO2 content of the worts would yield some interesting data. Having a greater number of replicates would be useful, too. Have fun! George de Piro (de peer O) (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:56:52 -0600 (CST) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Home growing Jeff writes: >I believe that Dan Listermann has grown >Klages. You could check with your local feed mill for untreated seed malt. I've read several times in HBD that brewers have found barley growing where they dump their spent grain. It seems to me that you might even have more luck if you simply planted a pound of malt. I've tried this a few times with a few handfuls and then forgotten where on my unkempt property I've done it. It might take two seasons to get enough to brew with, but what's 10 minutes with a Garden Weasel and a pound of malt? Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:01:28 -0800 From: Al Czajkowski <aczajkow at ford.com> Subject: Copper in Beer In HBD 2884 Mark T A Nesdoly <mtn290 at mail.usask.ca> writes on Subject: Copper oxide?? Well, from a long ago tour of the Stroh Brewery in Detroit, my remembery recalls that their fire brewed beer was actually cooked in huge copper kettles. Also from some prior issues of the HBD #? and authors ? copper actually assists yeast in doing their magical, mystical work.... Then again, I often have trouble remembering my home phone number... ;-$ - -- Al Czajkowski F.O.R.D A short hop due east of Jeff Renner, well maybe a little north too. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:15:24 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Copper Oxide Dissolution, Copper Plating Mark asks if it is indeed copper oxide dissolving off his copper immersion chiller and strainer tube and whether this is a problem. Yes, it is copper oxide, which once it gets in the body, is copper. But! the amount of copper oxide that dissolves is very small, and is taken up by the yeast during fermentation. Remember, copper brewing vessals have been in use for hundreds of years. I have a book here at work on Copper Toxicity from the Copper in Biology and Medicine Series by Dr. Charles Owen of the Mayo Clinic, and in all the various citations of copper toxicity in plants, microorganisms, animals and man, brewing does not come up once. IF any of you experience severe abdominal cramps after drinking beer or your hair and fingernails start turning green, then you have a problem. Verdigris (cupric acetate, copper sulfate, or copper chloride) is a group of blue green oxides of copper and is very poisonous. If you have copper components that have it on it then you need to clean them using vinegar before using them in your brewing. The brownish oxide that tends to cover our chillers is not as poisonous (not as much copper) and will develop into a patina that does not dissolve in contact with wort or beer. Keep your copper components clean but not necessarily shiny bright, and you will allow this patina to build up. As a rule, I only rinse off my chiller after use, or use B-Brite to help remove any gunk and then rinse thoroughly. It has developed a nice dull copper color that does not change appreciably when I take it out of the wort after chilling. DO NOT use bleach to clean copper. It will turn it black and you will have lots of copper coming off into solution. If my chiller looks especially dirty (black spots) after long disuse, then I clean it with vinegar and rinse it thoroughly. Mark mentions that he will test his gunk to see if it is copper by seeing if a solution of it is blue. This will not work as only Copper Sulfate is blue. I doubt you would see anything. I would not recommend copper plating a water heater element. Easy on = Easy off. Tin plated elements are definitely a no-no, the tin that dissolves into the wort is toxic to the yeast. You should be able to find chrome plated elements though and these will work well. I believe these are what most RIMS people use. Hope this helps, John Palmer - metallurgist 3M Unitek Monrovia CA Palmer House Brewery and Smithy http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:25:10 -0800 From: DaskeF at bcrail.com Subject: The Brewmaster's Dinner I do not know if there is an appetite for this sort of thing on the digest. If I do not see it appear I will assume that I am using too much bandwidth and cease my long-winded banter. I apologize if this sounds like an advertisement, it is not. I have no affiliation with this company, I am just a satisfied customer. The Brewmaster's Dinner... On Saturday, November 21, my wife and I had the distinct pleasure of attending a most memorable presentation and dinner, held and the Howe Sound Inn and Brew Pub, in Squamish B.C. At about 7:00pm Greg Evans, the executive director of the Vancouver Museum, gave a talk regarding the history of hop growing in B.C. The presentation was accompanied by historical slides of hop farms, hop pickers, and hop kilns in B.C. A hand crafted, cask conditioned IPA and an aged Lager were available for everyone's enjoyment. The resident brewer, Nigel Roberts, did an excellent job of hand crafting the various Ales on tap that night, IMHO. The cask conditioned IPA was wonderful. I am gaining a respect for Nigel's Ale brewing expertise. Following the presentation we moved to the dinning room. The 3-course dinner was one of the best I have had in recent years. Each course was accompanied with a hand crafted Lager or Ale. The appetizer was a choice of a Prawn Bisque or Duck salad, accompanied by a Lager, The main course was a choice of Halibut with a crust made with the spent grains, or a plump Pork Chop with a wonderful sauce - the accompanying ale was a Best Bitter. The desert plate consisted of half a flavoured pear, a slice of prepared cream cheese or somesuch, and vertical lattice work pastry reminiscent of a Greek ruin. This was accompanied by a Scotch Ale. The desert was most impressive and the fact that a Scotch Ale (or any ale, for that matter) would make a positive contribution to anything sweet was an news to me. My wife is particularly fond of this Scotch Ale, bless her heart. I have known chef Kelly Cochran for some time and can vouch for his culinary expertise. He has worked at several locations in Greater Vancouver and I am pleased that he is now artfully at work at the Howe Sound Inn, just minutes from our home. Professional and amateur brewers attended the event from all over Greater Vancouver. It was wonderful to be able to bend the ears of so many knowledgeable people. I gained a wealth of insight into the 'magic' of handcrafting quality ale. I was preparing to craft my first all-grain brew the next day and was reassured by many that all would go well. Relax, have a home brew. Incidentally, my first all-grain brew did go well. I was shooting for a German Lager style however, I would be using a California Lager Yeast ... I know, sacrilege! I made the finishing touches to my Mash/Lauder Tun (converted Igloo cooler) and I was READY TO BREW. There were a couple of tense moments when I thought the sparge had stuck. But all was well in my kitchen, after all. Following the boil, the Specific Gravity of my brew was 1.038. Using 5 kilos of Belgian Pils and 500 grams of 40L Crystal Malt for a 5 Imperial gallon batch, I expected a Specific Gravity something of 1.044. I did not do the Iodine test for starch conversion, looks like I should have. Just to satisfy the curiosity of the collective, I used a combination of Saaz and Hollertauer Hops for bitter, flavour, and aroma. The brew is happily fermenting in my basement at 60F using the California Lager yeast recovered from the bottom of the primary fermentation tank of my previous effort, a similarly bastardized Lager affectionately labeled Flex Lager or FLager. This yeast had been washed with sanitized water and stored in my refrigerator for 3 weeks. Now, what's next?! Guess I should try a Scotch Ale for the boss of the house - that wonderful woman who allows me the use of her new kitchen to brew beer and bake pastries. Just to assure you that I do posses a molecule of taste, I will be brewing a 'true to style' Czech Pilsner using a liquid Czech Pils Lager yeast as soon as the temperature in my make-shift basement cool room drops below 55 degrees F. Regards, Felix (life's a mountain) Daske Software Specialist (604)984-5067 Daskef at bcrail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:41:26 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Bottle Bombs Brewsters: Al K worries that my suggestion to add a little yeast to some bottles of flat primed beer could produce bottle bombs if the fermentation of the batch was not complete. I agree. He suggests a hydrometer Would be useful and I agree if one knew beforehand what the FG was supposed to be. He knows that I believe I have a solution for this that does not involve a hydrometer, but can't talk about it, since I gave my promise to keep quiet about ********* {8^) until we finish evaluating it on a broad scale. - ---------------------------------- Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:45:57 -0600 (CST) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: sticky rye Alan writes: >If you are trying to solve the problem of getting a stuck mash when making >a rye beer, let me share my recent experience mashing with 33% rye *malt* >(as opposed to flaked or raw). My experience supports that if you do a >beta-glucan rest, and a protein rest, that there is a reduced chance of >the sparge getting stuck. Mine didn't stick at all, although it took >2 hours and 45 minutes to collect all of the runnings. > >I took a clue from a thread a while back in the HBD, and got further >clarification and help from George DePiro. (Thanks George!) > >Recipe: > 5 pounds 2-row pils malt (pils for the extra beta-glucanase) > 4 pounds rye malt (33%) > 2 pounds Munich malt > 1 pound caramel malt > >Mash schedule: > 35 min at 104F; mash in and beta glucan rest > 20 min at 122F; protein rest > 100 min at 150F; starch conversion > 15 min at 168F; mash out Just another datapoint for you all. I made a batch of rye beer from 8 pounds of Pale Ale and 6 pounds of rye *malt* (43%!). I had intended to do a beta-glucan and a protein rest, but goofed and mashed-in at 152F or so. This batch too took 3 hours to get 6.5 gallons of runnings (only slighly longer than it took Alan), which could imply that Alan's complicated mash schedule really didn't help much. Chances that we didn't use the same grind are pretty high, although the fact that there was not a great difference in lautering time seems to suggest that *maybe* the complicated mash schedule didn't help much. Just one datapoint. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:02:25 -0800 From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> Subject: oatmeal stout any suggestions for an oatmeal stout? I've got some ideas from the cat's meow, but many of those recipes are extract, for whatever reason. I want an all-grain recipe. How much oatmeal in 5 gallons? How much roast barley? How many IBUs? What mashing schedule? thanks for your help. Lewis' book _Stout_ was less than helpful. Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 23:24:38 -0400 From: vland1 at juno.com (Vernon R Land) Subject: All Munich By Mistake The other day I stopped by my local beer store for 8 lbs. of pale malt and 0.5 lbs. of Munich malt. The intelligent clerk gave me 8 lbs. of Munich and 0.5 lbs. of pale. I didn't notice until I drove home and began to crack it open. Being frustrated and tired, I mashed it using a step routine for 2 hours. By iodine test, incomplete conversion due to what me brain thinks is lack of enzymes. Can this batch be saved? It is in the secondary fermenter and very dark but not black like a stout. Initial gravity = 1.045, after 2 days = 1.020. I am thinking of adding some Nottingham dry to wring all I can out of this starchy mix, original yeast was Edme. Vern "Starchbier R Us" ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:40:15 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com> Subject: hbD Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com enquired: >>> So is the correct pronunciation of the HBD, hBd or hbD? Inquiring minds want to know. <<< It's hbD. tim TIM ANdersun in PORTland OReegun, hoo WISHes he had an IPA font. Or MAYbe just an IPA. == Please ignore the advertisement below. Thank you. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:18:49 EST From: ThomasM923 at aol.com Subject: Cheap 240VAC GFI??? I recently found an item in a surplus catalog that looks like it could be a holy grail of sorts. A cheap 240VAC ground fault interrupt. Or is it??? What follows is part of the description from the catalog: "Rated 120 VAC, 20 amps, 2400 watts. 240 VAC, 16 amps, 3840 watts. 50/60 Hz. I Delta N = 10 mA. Intended for ground fault protection of electronic equipment. Does not protect against contact between both circuit conductors or a fault in supply wiring. This is a ground fault protection unit and cannot be used as a circuit breaker." Ok, is this the same thing as a ground fault interrupt? I certainly hope so because it is only $10! Thomas Murray Maplewood, NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:18:25 EST From: ThomasM923 at aol.com Subject: Heating elements for boilers Mark T A Nesdoly wrote: "I want to build a kettle with an electric immersion heater. Then I can safely brew in doors with no fumes and risk of burning the house down with a Cajun cooker. You can get water heaters elements for $20 Cdn. The problem is the finish. They are tin plated or something. They rust over time..." Mark--- I assume you are from Canada? I don't know if you have Graingers up there, but they have some heating elements that you (and others on the digest) may be interested in. They are the usual water heater type element, but they are plated with some kind of nickel-based alloy called Permalloy. Nickel is a fairly nonreactive metal (stainless steel has a substantial amount of nickel in it), so I think it would be a good choice if you are concerned about copper leaching into your brew. These elements are made in such a way that they have an extremely low watt density. All this really means is that they are longer than usual so the heat energy is not as intense along the length of the element. Perfect for scorch-free brewing, but the extra length may be a problem for some boiler vessels. A 2000W element ($14.25 US) is 10", 3500W ($17.09 US) is 13 3/4". The 3500W element should bring a 6.5 gallon wort to boil in ~45 minutes, the 2000W element would be an exercise in patience. There are other wattages available: 4500W, 5000W, and 6000W. All elements require 240 volts. They are available as screw-in or bolt-on. If you can't locate a Grainger outlet near you, e-mail me and I will give you the manufacturer's name (don't have it handy at the moment) so you can find a distributor near you. I also have a source for 120V 1000W copper elements for those who throw caution to the wind. At 5 bucks a pop, these are quite a bargain. They are made in an elongated loop with bulkhead type fittings on either end. Over-all length of the element is ~5". The shape is awkward for using in a boiler, but I was told that they can be bent (unbent) to any shape. They are available (stock #HE8307) from C and H Sales, 1-800-325-9465. Thomas Murray Maplewood, NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:05:15 -0800 From: "C and K" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com> Subject: Pronouncing Yup! thats how its pronounced around here. now, just for kicks try your hand at Puyallup. Ok Guys and dolls, here's one more: Athole, Idaho! Chris and Karin Richland,Wa. Seldom correct...but never without doubt Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:43:43 -0500 From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu> Subject: Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet I'm still trying to get that bitter-sweet flavor that I taste in Hop Pockets and HopDevil. The responses to my first post about Hop Pockets suggested that dry hopping might give this type of flavor but it did not work for me. Now I notice the same type of taste in Victory HopDevil and from what i've read I don't think they dry hop. They use pils,vienna,caramunich,carmel malts all from Weyermann and hop with Centennial,Tettnanger and cascades. The OG is 1.063 and IBUs of 55. They use a step mash. The beer has a very good bitterness and yet a very distinct sweetness in there behind the bitterness. Any more thoughts on how this is done? Rick Pauly Charlottesville,Va Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:02:14 -0500 From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: Labeling Bottles Lately, there have been several questions about labeling. Most recently Bill Coleman writes: >Does anyone have any suggestions on a technique that will allow: >1) Labels that are easily removable afterwards, by soaking, yet will stay on until then. >2) Non-bleeding colors (maybe I should use a different paper?) >3) Not as important, but since we're talking about 80 bottles, here--something >that's not too extremely labor intensive. So here's my $.03. I like to bottle (though I just recently bought an ex-homebrewers kegging setup, I haven't used it yet). And aditionally, I label most of my bottles. It's fun, another creative outlet, and I've found that a good presentation gets a lot of positive attention - whether from other brewers, or from non-brewers. Bill's questions sum up the important issues about labeling. 1) With regard to easy label removal, I simply save up bottles until I have enough to fill a trash can (you could certainly use smaller containers more frequently) and soak in water with 2 cups of household non-sudsing ammonia. This removes the labels easily - both from my own labeled homebrews and also from commercial bottles I have saved. There are some commercial labels that are a bit harder to remove, especially the foil ones, but a little scrubbing with a nylon scrubbie pad and some additional soaking time eventually gets them all. Someone recently mentioned using TSP to soak the bottles with good results, I've been meaning to try that but haven't yet. 2) The ink from inkjet printers does run - some less, some more. Depends on the printer and also on the type of paper you use. The newer printers and inks are much better than the older ones. If my label has any scanned or downloaded graphics (and most of them do), I use the treated, high-gloss paper. The image quality is much better. However, they still tend to run a bit. This is not an issue if you keep the bottles in the fridge. But it is a problem if you take the bottles to a party or whatever in an ice-chest. I've found a couple of ways to deal with this. First, you can print one page of labels on your inkjet and then take it to Kinko's (or any other copy shop - no affiliation, just satisfied yada yada) and make as many copies as you need on their high-end color copier. The ink from those copiers will not run. A variation of this is to print the labels on color lasers. Unfortunately, these are priced out of most of our ranges, but some lucky homebrewers have access to them at work (hi Phil, hi Jim). If you have access to one they work great. 3) I have a method that works great, but is a little labor intensive (so much for Bill's last conern). I coat the labels with clear contact paper. I print the labels in rows on the page (for software I just use MS Word and the Win95 paint accessorie) and then cut the pages into strips. I sometimes print different sizes of the same label, easy to do and then the labels are appropriately sized for either 12 or 22 oz bottles. I then cover these strips with matching size strips of the clear contact paper. Be as careful as possible to avoid trapping air bubbles. You'll still get some anyway, but try to keep bubbles to a minimum. You can smooth these out toward the edges using any available smooth-edged hard plastic tool. I then cut out the labels and affix them to the bottles. This may seem like a lot of work, but I have found it to be worth the effort - you can leave bottles in ice chests for hours with no problem. The plastic coating also gives you a very substantial and professional looking label (I've had a number of people ask where I bought the beer). 4) The last issue is how you affix the labels. Bill mentioned using milk. I've tried it and it is cheap, easy and works well. However, it doesn't work for the heavier, coated labels. I have tried a number of things and found UHU glue sticks to work the best. After using them for a while I found a good trick. UHU also makes the glue sticks in a purple color. These work well because you can easily see where you have applied the glue. On a different, but related note. If you are going to bottle (regardless of whether you label or not), get into the habit of rinsing out your bottles as soon as you empty them. It cuts down the amount of labor involved tremendously. Contrast that to the amount of time you'll spend scrubbing out moldy, dried beer gunk otherwise and you'll be convinced. Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:53:12 -0500 From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Removable bottlelabels Bill Coleman wants easily removable bottle labels but found that soaking this Deskjet labels in milk caused the print to bleed. I have been able to simply brush the milk onto the back of the plain paper label with some success. You need to do this pretty carefully and with as little milk as possible. Otherwise, the milk will creep around to the front of the label an smear the print. Also let the labels dry really well (hours) before trying this. I would love to hear some suggestions for a more viscous, water-soluble alternative to milk. Being more viscous would avoid the problem altogether. - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:10:03 -0600 From: "J.W. Schnaidt" <tuba at gwtc.net> Subject: Say WHAT?!? On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> wrote: >Bzzzzzt! Wrong-O, buster. It was Stroh's. Most definitely. I doubt that >Old Style could have also used the same catch phrase without somehow >infinging on Stroh's, but it was DEFINITELY a Stroh's advertising catch. Living all my life in South Dakota, which is near to LaCrosse, Wisconsin, where Heileman's Old Style is still brewed, I can definitely say that Old Style *did* use KROY-zening in their ads. I've never seen a Stroh's ad that I can recall. Perhaps they also used the word, but I know for a fact that Old Style did. Jim Schnaidt tuba at gwtc.net Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:08:44 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Say WHAT?!? >From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 Dan >Butler-Ehle was overheard saying: > >> >Was it old Stroh's commercials that talked about >> >kraeusening? >> >> It wasn't Stroh; it was Old Style. > >Bzzzzzt! Wrong-O, buster. It was Stroh's. Most definitely. I doubt that >Old Style could have also used the same catch phrase without somehow >infinging on Stroh's, but it was DEFINITELY a Stroh's advertising catch. >Mebbe both, but I don't recall ever hearing or reading it in any Old Style >advertisements. Having lived in Detroit my entire (give or take a small >percentage here and there) I was literally INUNDATED with Stroh's >commercials... (these quotes used without Dan's or Pat's permission and in direct contravention of the new policy) Well, I hate to disagree with our fearless lager, I mean leader. I guess I've lived in SE Michigan about as long as Pat, even though I came here at a UofM freshman. Guess that means I've been comprehending beer comercials maybe longer (although I'm sure Pat was a precocious little tyke). I don't remember Stroh's touting kraeusening, and definitely remember Old Style doing so. Probably back in the mid 60's to mid 70's. I don't think any of us knew what it was. I remember a new MBA friend (the MBA was new, the friend was older) working for Arthur Andersen ~ 1974 going up to Heileman's top do an audit. I asked him if he had to count kraeusens. He actually was able to explain what it was pretty well - first time I knew. Apparently they really did have to inventory the beer at different stages, and it was explained to them. >> It's not "KROY-sen"; it's "KROY-zen". I think there's actually a slight, almost under the breath "ah" before the "oy." Not anything like a separate syllable. I think that "KROY-zen" would be the pronounciation of 'kreusen." if there were such a word. Note, I haven't studied German beyond an Adult Ed. course and having grown up in a third generation German-American household in a German-American city (Vass you effer in Zinzinnati?). >> >(And wasn't it Stroh's that made a big deal about >> >being fire-brewed? As if gas flame versus electric >> >heat makes a difference >> >> It's not "gas flame versus electric"; it's gas vs. >> steam. Yes, it *can* make a difference...typically >> not considered a desirable one, though. > >Hmmm. Why's that? Unless caramelization is undesirable, it becomes a >matter of heat is heat, as the original poster alludes to. Being a larger >brewery, I'd imagine the kettles and/or processes were designed to prevent >unwanted caramelization, so the point still becomes a big "so what?" in >terms of their advertising gimick... Evidently, a young Stroh some years ago (pre WWI, maybe last century) visited the old country as sons of German-American brewers did and found that old traditional breweries were using direct fired kettles. He thought it made an important difference - the slight caramelization, apparently. He came back and convinced Daddy and Uncle to convert their steam-fired kettles to direct fired - I think maybe oil fired. This was indeed a main advertising component, but it has disappeared recently (as Stroh's nearly has, as well). I don't think they use the slogan or fire brewing anymore. Stroh's moved its brewing out of Detroit maybe 15 years ago, but their corporate headquarters are still there. There were recent rumors of its being eyed hungrily by Miller, but both companies have denied this. Stroh's is still owned by people named Stroh and they very generously support the Michigan State Fair homebrewing competition. One of AABG's active members recently took a job with them as a chemist, and the director of research (I think) is an inactive member. I'd hate to see them gobbled up and spit out by a still bigger brewery. I'll have some thoughts to offer regarding quoting and reposting after the weekend when more people read HBD. I wonder what kind of beer goes best with turkey? I mean, besides homebrew. You'd think after all these years I'd have that figured out, but I still need more research. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:23:59 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Furstenberg Ken Houtz <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net> >They also served Furstenerg Beer. This is a very clean German Lager, well >balanced (to my taste) in every way. My goal is someday to be able to make a >Lager like that. > >Has anyone out there heard of this small family brewery somewhere in the >Black Forest ? Any suggestions as to a recipe ? > >I'm still doing extract (DME) + steeping crystal malt but want to gather the >courage to go all grain some day. Michael Jackson's new 6th edition Pocket Guide to Beer, p. 47: "A full range of products is produced here, but the brewery is well known for it's Frstenburg Pilsner (**-***). This beer has quite a full body, a sustained, lasting head, and a pleasantly hoppy taste in its dry finish." I would guess that it's the Pilsner that they are exporting, but it could be one of the others, in which case these suggestions are off. Since it is full bodied, I'd guess that it is a bit maltier than most German Pils, more Bavarian than Northern (it's in Donaueschingen in Bavaria). I'd suggest using a German liquid extract (Irek's has one called "Bavarian Light" and William's sells one), OG 1.048, hop with Hallertauer to 30-35 IBU using some flavor and aroma additions. Ferment with a big starter of a liquid lager yeast (maybe you can get some from a local micro?), ferment at ~50F, then lager at 32F for 6 weeks. Then do think about going all grain. It's fun. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:31:58 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Site (sic) glass Spencer, 6 miles est of here, wrote: >*SIGHT* glass (because you see through it). > >Not *SITE* glass. That would be a mug with "hbd.org" engraved on it. > >Thank you. And palate, not palette or pallet. Arrrgh. For years I've gritted my teeth on that one. Where can I get a site glass? Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:31:51 -0500 (EST) From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU Subject: Question re: Diacetyl Rest Date sent: 26-NOV-1998 11:27:20 I have seen here, and in the very good book by Al Korzonas mention of a diacetyl rest. Recently there was a post stating that Wyeast#2308 (Munich Lager) is especially in need of this rest. So I looked through several books and see that AlK speaks to it twice. On p97 he states that the rest should be from 55-65 degrees for 1-10 days, then on p382 he states from 1-2 days. Could Al, or someone else please give me some guidance here as I have used Munich Lager yeast several times before and want to do it correctly... Thankyou. ...Darrell in Plattsburgh, NY. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/Darrell Leavitt _/ _/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AX25 : n2ixl at kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:37:17 -0500 (EST) From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU Subject: question re: flaked/ roasted barley I recently spoke to a brewer at a local brewpub who suggested that he used to put either flaked barley or roasted barley in the mash, but has stoped doing so in that it created an astringency, so, he now puts it in the lauter after recirculating, and while sparging....and that the little time that it needs to convert...it gets there. Does this make sense to you folks? ie have you heard this or tried this before? ..Darrell <Plattsburgh, NY> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:44:32 -0500 From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net> Subject: Re: . . . pronounce . . . My question in HBD #2882 about the pronunciation of "Willamette" has yielded 18 votes for "will-LAM-et" and one for "will-lam-et". My thanks to all. Briar Bog Brewery in Booming Clarksville, Murlun, midway between Bawlamur & Shood'n Ciddy Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:44:00 PST From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com> Subject: Clear Beer Hello All, I hate to whine, especially about a whiner! ;^) Frank Russo was unhappy about the posts on Clear Beer. C'mon Frank, although most of us find the idea of duplicating Zima a horrifying notion, it has merit for at least two reasons: one, it is a good excercise to push the limits of ones brewing ability, and two, most of the posters indicated that they were attempting to passify non-beer drinking spouses (a noble persuit IMHO). I know alot of avid brewers, beer judges, and HBD posters who HATE a particular style (commonly lambic) is it reasonable for them to ask for a moratorium on posts on the subject? No way. Nothing personal, Just my $.02. The best thing about HBD is that it tackles questions on the fringe that aren't covered in mainstream brewing literature. And another hearty thanks to Pat and Karl for their generous maintainance of this excellent resource. Adam ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:29:30 -0800 From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Mixing Yeasts Jim & Patti Hust wondered about mixing yeast strains. Many Belgian strains (especially those cultured from bottles) are actually mixed strains. I maintain a mixture of lambic culture with some trappist strain for brewing lambics. Sometimes (especially if the ph gets too acidic) the lambic strain actually gets crowded out by the more orthodox Belgian yeast, but nothing really strange happens if both types of yeast have enough time to work. I haven't seen any mention of this recently, but does anyone know anything about the rumor that the W-Yeast British strain is a mixed strain including a wild yeast? (I've had very hard attenuation with this strain.) Ted McIrvine Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:27:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com> Subject: Clear Beer, Steer Clear? Frank wrote: >>> In hate to complain, BUT, after seeing article after article on clear beer I have had it. I did try the mess when it first came out and could not drink it. I wondered why any one would. If you like this # at *#!0 just go out and buy it and don't clutter up the digest or waste your time trying to reproduce it. <<< My goodness, Frank, having a bad day? Seems to me that the topic of brewing any kind of beer or beer-like beverage is fair game for the digest. I'm not interested myself, but I could see the challenge of brewing something virtually colorless and flavorless as being kind of fun. And probably not easy. Also, I've heard of people brewing for barter (it don't think it's legal, therefore I haven't done it myself, of course). So suppose somebody's willing to paint your house in exchange for a batch or two of clear beer? Just might be a skill worth acquiring. Hypothetically. tim Whose house in need of painting is in Portland, Oregon. == Please ignore the advertisement below. Thank you. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:07:01 +0000 (GMT) From: David and Camilla Taylor <taylor at odyssey.apana.org.au> Subject: Advice needed with beets ....for colour Greetings Brewfolk! Darrell reports that he has done an enormous brew coloured with beets ( I presume beetroot and not sugar beet). I would like to advise that I recently sampled a beetroot wine, made by a member of the Perth (Western Australia) winemaking club. The astonishing thing was that the wine was completely clear, not coloured at all. The vintner stated that the very strong purple colour vanished completely during fermentation. I expect that the same will become of your "Purple Haze" Darrell. - -- David and Camilla Taylor in Fremantle, Western Australia Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:35:57 -0700 From: hophead2 at juno.com (curt j tuhy) Subject: Labeling Bottles My experience in labeling bottles is if you use a label mat for your printer that is of a glossy finish thus the face of the label is waterproof and if when you have finished enjoying that brew all you would need to do is #1- KEEP THE LABEL DRY. then with a bottle washer or simply under your sink spigot fill the bottle with as hot as tap water that you can get then leave it sit for a minute or so and (usually) presto you have reactivated the adhesive on the label and it then can be pulled off by hand. or i have seen reusable labels from brew supply stores that work very nice! Curt Tuhy way west of Jeff Renner and just south of Ted Renner 20 minutes north of Mount Rushmore Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> Subject: Scccrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaakkkkk! Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your Fire Brewed, Kraeusened lager... Damn! I'd *SWEAR* it was Stroh's. I have a friend (daughter's Godfather, actually) who worked for Stroh's during that era. (He's given me plenty of those "groovy" 70's Stroh's posters and a couple cases of the old stained-glass labelled bottles). I'll have to ask him, but, in the meantime, I'll have to go with Jeff and lay it on a rusty hinge in my normally pretty okey-doke memory. Afterall, how many TRULY remember their childhood?!? ;-) (Hell! I remember Hamm's commercials, Schlitz commercials, Altes, Blatz, Pabst, "Fre brewed Stroh's", Falstaff, "Mabel: another Black Label...", Miller - Coors wasn't available here back then - Molson, Labatt's.... Why can't I remember any Heilemann's Old Style commercials? I'd still *SWEAR* it was Stroh's. Ah, well...) See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:16:27 -0500 (EST) From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> Subject: And another thing... GB! TMTYL... And Goebel's commercials. How could I have not mentioned my grandmother's favorite beer?!? See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
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