---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  How to catagorize a Saison ("N.A. Campiglia III")
  Samichlaus (Ted McIrvine)
  Small Fermentation (Ant Hayes)
  Small fermentation ("Steven J. Owens")
  small carboys (William Frazier)
  soapy taste in foam (Rod Prather)
  Drosophilae Melanogaster (Rod Prather)
  Using steam (ThomasM923)
  Homebrew Digest #2913 (December 29, 1998) -Reply (Jeffrey King)
  Beer Conner (tsadler)
  Kitchen Aid Grain Mill (Alan McKay)
  Bad Malts and Canadian Mills (Alan McKay)
  re: Gram Scales (Christopher "R." Hebert)
  S.G./Scales (AJ)
  Mills (Dan Listermann)
  Mini_Keg Questions (More) ("Stuart Baunoch")
  mash in (Nathan Kanous)
  Scales (John Varady)
  War of the Worts 4 (Alan Folsom)
  making of whiskey ("Czerpak, Pete")
  base grains ("Czerpak, Pete")
  KItchen Aid ("David R. Burley")
  KitchenAid grain mill (michael w bardallis)
  First Lager Issues ("Gregory M. Remake")
  yeast starter (scott zimmerle)
  RE: Fruit Flys (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Naming names (Tim Anderson)
  RE: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (LaBorde, Ronald)
  collective advice (Cory Chadwell Page Navigation)
  12 points of light (Paul Niebergall)
  Unique adjuncts ("George De Piro")
  mills and extract efficiency ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  Re: ramp time ... (Jeff Renner)
  Re: reusing secondary yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part I) (Jeff Renner)
  Kitchen Aid Responses ("Myers, Richard")
  Haughty or Nice? (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  iron removal/pH papers? (Jon Sandlin)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:54:54 -0600
From: "N.A. Campiglia III" <spitdrvr at camalott.com>
Subject: How to catagorize a Saison

I brewed a great Sasion, I want to enter it in a few competitions coming
soon but I dont know what to enter it under.

Any help would be great

Nick
Abilene,TX
Bible belt brewers



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:24:05 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Samichlaus

My wife went looking for Samichlaus as one of my Christmas gifts. 
Striking out at the better distributors in New York City, she crossed
over to a behemoth beer/liquor store in Elizabeth NJ.  The assistant
manager (who knows and loves good beer) told her that Samichlaus was no
longer being made.  He did succeed in finding some vintage variety packs
of Samichlaus.

Has anyone else heard anything about this?  And does anyone have a
better Samichlaus recipe than the one in Zymurgy a few years ago?

Ted McIrvine
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:03:40 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Small Fermentation

Dave Burley commented,

"I have used this "open" fermentation
procedure for three decades and never had a spoiled batch.  I think it
is superior to the primary fermentation in a closed carboy system.
Others disagree. "

which reminded me of something that has puzzled me for a while.

Most South African's who start home brewing use 25l plastic buckets with
fitting lids. The next stage is often some sort of stainless steel
fermenter. I only know of one brewer that has used a carboy (and he was
taught by an American).

>From this list, I gather that most American's use carboys. Are they very
readily available? To me they seem rather tricky to work with relative to a
plastic bucket.

Just curious


Ant Hayes



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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:09:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Small fermentation


David R. Burley writes:
> Mike Beatty has a dilemma.  He has 1 gallon beer kits and a 5 gallon
> carboy and has had no success in finding glass bottles in the 1.5 -
> 2 gallon size. 

     Hm, I haven't looked around lately, but if all you want is a
large glass bottle, I remember in 1994 and 1995, in Denver, Colorado,
buying large quantities of Skyland apple cider in glass bottles.  Mike
might want to check his local grocery store.

David goes on to suggest:
> Mike, I suggest you go to a resturant or food store ( discards -
> just no pickle bucket, please) or Walmart and the like to get a
> white <polyethylene> bucket of 1.5 gallons and ferment in
> there. 
> Place a 2 to 4 mil polyethylene plastic sheet cover on the top and
> hold it down drum tight with rubber bands daisy chained into a
> circle. 

     You can find "industrial" rubber bands (large black rubber bands,
usually a half inch to an inch thick, and anywhere from 10-30" long)
all over the place; visit any packaging supply store, or pick up your
business-to-business yellow pages, or if you're near any businesses
that get things shipped to them - again, maybe your local supermarket.

     Or you could just ask for a lid for the bucket when you get it,
and if it's nice and tight, sandwich the polyethylene between the lid
and the bucket.

> Cover the bucket to keep the light out.  Then rack this into a
> gallon jar when the active ferment has subsided. I have used this
> "open" fermentation procedure for three decades and never had a
> spoiled batch.  I think it is superior to the primary fermentation
> in a closed carboy system.
> Others disagree. 

     Why do you think it's superior?  What arguments have others had
for it being inferior?  The first homebrewing book I read recommended
using a plastic bucket for fermentation, but I assumed it was because
carboys were harder to find (and necessarily require a bit more care
and work, being more breakable).  Everybody I talked to at the time
recommended using carboys, but never with any specific reason.

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com

 


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:37:59 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: small carboys

Hi Mike...you can buy 2.8 and 3.0 gallon carboys with the usual carboy neck
openings from;

Presque Isle Wine Cellars
9440 W Main Rd
North East, PA 16428
1-800-488-7492
Homepage:  www.erie.net/~prwc
Email:  prwc at erie.net

        Bill Frazier
        The Briarpatch Home Brewery
        Johnson County, KS



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 03:04:19 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: soapy taste in foam

Certainly could be/probably is the hops. I am not sure why.  I hope someone
else comes up with a more specific answer to this one.  I remember Samuel
Adams in the early days of production before they streamlined their
process.  The beer had an odd, distinctive, almost soapy flavor which I
always attributed to  the Tettnanger hops.  Tettnanger has a very
distinctive flavor and the soapyness was definately tettnager in flavor.
Perhaps it was a hop tea.  I haven't noticed it to be so pronounced in
recent years.

From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>

Hi all,

The beer came out excellent except for a soapy taste in the foam.
What could this be ? Can it be the hops ? The beer is perfect
otherwise and the soapy taste is very mild. The head retention and
foaming also are perfect. My kegs were definitely spotless clean
and all my beer lines and taps as well.

Cheers





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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 03:34:34 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Drosophilae Melanogaster 

 Does anyone out there have a  specific case were
a fruit fly was in a starter and the resulting beer was judged as bad?
Until someone supplies additional data, we have to assume that
fruit flies are not a problem in starters.

Paul, you miss the point....

Frankly, I don't need a specific case.  Fruit flies carry bacteria. They
filter bacteria out of their food and it ends up on their foot pads.   4 1/2
percent alcohol is not enough to kill most bacteria, just slow it's growth.
If you have a yeast starter approaching 12 to 14 percent alcohol, even
fortified to that level, then perhaps the bacteria will not survive. Fruit
flies are common in wine and acceptable due to the alcohol content.   If
your starter wort is lower alcohol you will gain a certain amount of
bacteria.  You may also get  wild yeast (no, I don't know if fruit flies
carry yeast for sure)   The yeasts are the least of the problem and will
probably be yeast found in the brewery anyway.  Taste alone is not enough to
judge this type of damage.  You have introduced a bacteria source to a
sterile medium, your starter, cultivated it and have then transferred that
to a second medium, your wort.  If you have a desire to trust just what
bacteria that might be, be my guest.  Personally, I find it of questionable
hygiene.



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 04:12:26 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Using steam

Bill Macher wrote about using steam in a RIMS setup in HBD #2913. It is a
fascinating idea, however there is a real problem to be dealt with in the
design of the heating chamber. If the steam source is turned off at some point
during the mashing cycle, the temperature in the steam injection pipe will
cool and the steam will condense. A vacuum will be created, and your
recirculating wort will be sucked back into the pressure cooker.
One possible suggestion would be to open the injection pipe up (using a
solenoid valve rated for steam---try Grainger) when the steam is no longer
needed to avoid a vacuum, but then when more steam is needed, you would end up
injecting the air that had replaced the steam into your wort. Perhaps the
vacuum relief valve could remain open for a few moments while the steam purged
the injector of air. This suggests that the best place for the valve would be
as close to the heating chamber as possible.
I wrestled with this design problem for a while until I decided that I would
go a different route entirely. If anyone has a solution it would be
interesting to hear it.

There is a web page somewhere (sorry, I don't have the address) that deals
with a slightly different approach to heating a mash with steam; a quick
search will get you there.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:57:19 -0500
From: Jeffrey King <JKING4 at WPO.HCC.COM>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #2913 (December 29, 1998) -Reply

Greetings!  I am an avid homebrewer (kit form) and have read your
bulletin board for some time now.  During my time homebrewing I have of
course learned many easier ways of doing things and homemaking a lot
of equipment as needed.

One of the handiest items has been a wooden crate that holds a full
case of 12-oz bottles.  I have been custom making them to the exact
dimensions of the old fashioned wooden crates (Pepsi, Sun-Drop, etc.)
and they work like a charm.  I've made enough by now that the process
is very stream-lined and the cost pretty much covers little more than the
material needed to build them.  No more flimsy six-pack and 12-pack
paperboard containers to tote my precious homebrew!  I've even got
wooden six-pack containers to carry to homebrew gatherings.  They
make quite a showing.

I'm mentioning this to you because I've seen how handy these items are
and would like your advice on bringing this to the attenstion of all of your
avid readers.  Please contact me at your convenience by reply e-mail.  I
look forward to hearing from you.  Thank you.

Sincerely, Jeffrey King


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:57:49 -0400
From: tsadler at notes.oao.com
Subject: Beer Conner





No, a beer conner is not someone who mooches free homebrews. My wife got me
a great book about castle construction and life within castles and such.
One item in the book that would be of interest here; a beer conner had the
responsibility of testing a new batch of beer for complete fermentation. A
wooden bench would be soaked with some of the new beer and the conner sat
on the bench for half an hour. If his pants didn't stick to the bench when
he stood up, fermentation was complete.

I am _not_ suggesting this as an alternative to C*******t, I'm just
pointing out a vaguely interesting historical note.

Ted Sadler
About 1000 miles SSE of Jeff Renner




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:12:20 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Kitchen Aid Grain Mill

Richard Myers asks about the Grain Mill for Kitchen Aid.

Having a Kitchen Aid myself, I've always been interested in this
as well.  Over the past 3 years I've seen this question come up
about a dozen times in rec.crafts.brewing.  I'd say in that time
there were maybe a dozen responses to the question from people
with first-hand experience.  1 of them said it worked great, 
the other 11 said it was horrible and could produce nothing but
flour.

Given that the attachment is the same price as some of the
better homebrew mills, spend your money on a mill made for
brewing.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:15:04 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Bad Malts and Canadian Mills

Joe Rolfe asks :

> Is there a nice Canadian mill??

Yes, the Valley Mill is made right here in the Ottawa Valley.

> if you
> think a maltsters gives a lot of thought to "Are we 
> keeping the homebrewer happy??", dont bet on it.  

Perhaps I haven't been bitten with bad malt because I buy all of
mine directly from Canada Malting.  Maybe they only ship the crappy
stuff to the homebrew retailers and such.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:22:51 -0700
From: Christopher "R." Hebert <CRH at ny.rfny.rflaw.com>
Subject: re: Gram Scales

Doug asks about Gram Scales.  Recently, I purchased a nice
counter-balance scale with gram weights for about $45 from cynmar
(usual disclaimers, etc.).  I don't know if this is expensive and I probably
could've gotten one cheaper or used, but...




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:42:53 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: S.G./Scales

Joe Rolf wrote:
> Excellent point, Jack, Let me see a show of hands (homebrewers only)
>that would be willing to put up the $100 to $300 bucks for a quality
>set of hydrometers/sacchrometers?? And, yes if you want to measure with

>any accuracy - ya gotta have'em (low range scales).  Esp if your bottle

>conditioning for consistency.

A perhaps less expensive alternative than a set of short range
hydrometers is a pycnometer (specific gravity bottle) which permits very
accurate determination (out to the 4th decimal place). They are a bit of
a pain to use and require a good analytical balance (the better the
balance the more accurate the reading). Kimble's 50 mL bottle (P/N
15123R-50 lists at $113.32

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Doug Moyer asks about inexpensive gram scales. I  frequently suggest
reloading scales which are readily available, are quite accurate (a
grain or fraction thereof) and come in a variety of configurations from
beam and pan to electronic with prices from a few bucks up to a couple
of hundred. The main problem with these is that the less expensive ones
are calibrated only in grains (7000 to the pound) but one can do the
math. I'm always surprised at the number of homebrewers who are also
reloaders. Just today one of the guys in the local club posted a photo
of his handsome new brewing setup. On a shelf in the corner a case
tumbler is clearly visible.



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:47:46 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mills

Jack Schmidling writes:One thing occurs to me is the fact that no one 
else
making mills uses the coarse knurl that we use on the rollers ....

Unless the Maltmill has changed recently,  the Philmill has been using 
the
same coarse pitch knurl for the past three and a half years.

Dan Listermann               dan at listermann.com

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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:50:32 -0500
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: Mini_Keg Questions (More)

Some more questions on the mini-kegs systems.

I just bought some beer that came in a mini-keg and a hand pump tap.  Cost
was $ 25 approx.
I should be able to reuse the keg.
How can I that the 5 gallon batch that Im brewing now and put it in the keg
an bottle the rest?
How much priming sugar do I use for the keg ? I have seen posts that say
half as much as you bottle with and others that say 1 tablespoon. Kinda
confused.
If I can, can I put the sugar into the filler bucket with the amount to keg
with then add the remainder to finish bottling with? Or do I just add a
certain amount the the keg itself and add the brew to that?

Anyone with experience with mini-kegs please respond..  Main reason I don't
go to corny kegs is the space available.    The bottled beer goes to
friends and the kegs would be for myself.

Stuart Baunoch, Sturbridge, Massachusettes
sbaunoch at homeruns.com
Inventory Control Specialist, Hannafords Homeruns




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:52:53 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: mash in

Richard Myers asks about mashing in with his 3-tier system.  Should he buy
a larger pot or put up with reduced flow (can't just dump it in) from his
converted keg.  

Two things.  First, one option involves putting out more cash to buy a new
stock pot.  If you've got the cash and don't mind buying another pot go for
it.

On the other hand, if you can tolerate the extra time it takes to run mash
water from your converted keg (or scoop it with a small saucepan) then you
save that cash you would have spent on the extra pot and buy some other fun
gadgets / ingredients.

I heat my mash water in a converted keg and dough in right there.  It's a
mash / lauter tun.  Works great for me.

Good luck.
nathan in madison, WI




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:52:21 -0500
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Scales

Doug Moyer asks:
>Can anyone recommend a resonably accurate scale that can measure
>+/- 0.25 grams, at a reasonable price?

I found a web site yesterday that has cheap scales at wholesale prices and
below. It is:


www.scaleman.com

They sell analog and digital scales. I am looking at buying a nice triple
beam the measures to 610 grams x .1 gram, but they have a digital scale
that measures to 200 grams x .1 gram for the same price ($85). I'm torn and
can't decide which to get. Probably be the analog scale since it is harder
to break and never quits.

For those that don't want/need the accuracy they sold a balance scale that
weighed 500 grams x 1 gram for $19.95 and even recommend it for home brewing.

Check ya later,

John
John Varady                     * New email address ***> rust1d at usa.net
Glenside, PA



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:44:54 -0600 (CST)
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: War of the Worts 4

This is a (rather late) announcement of the 4th annual 
"War of the Worts" homebrew contest, to be held January 23rd at our
usual site, the Buckingham Mountain Brewpub in Lahaska, Pennsylvania.
Lahaska is located in eastern Bucks county, just over the river from
New Jersey.

Thanks to Lynn Ashley, the flyer with full details can be accessed at:
	http://potables.net/KeystoneHops/WarOfTheWorts.htm
We are using standard AHA entry forms and bottle labels.  Recipe 
information is entirely optional.

A few of the pertinant details:
	Entrys are two bottles, and the fee is $6. for the first entry,
		and $5 for each entry thereafter.
	Mailed entries should be sent to arrive between 1/4/98 and 
			1/17/98 to:
		Keystone Homebrew Supply
		779 Bethlehem Pike
		Route 309 & North Wales Rd.
		Montgomeryville, PA   18936
	Do NOT send an SASE for your scoresheets, that is part of your 
		entry fee.  Scoresheets and prizes will be returned to you 
as 
		soon as possible after the event.
	Judges and Stewards are DESPARATELY needed.
		Judge coordinator:	Nathaniel_Brese at rohmhaas.com
		Organizer			folsom at ix.netcom.com
	Judges and stewards may of course bring their entries the day of 
		the event, as long as paperwork and payment is received 
              by the entry deadlines.

Thanks for your support (and entries!)

Al Folsom





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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:27:58 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: making of whiskey

A buddy of mine has a love of expensive older whiskeys.  Any chance thse
can be made without waiting the required years although the smoothness
would be affected I supposed.  

Just thought I would try and get some info on this somewhat taboo
subject.  

Are there some ideas out there for making the mash needed to produce
whiskey.  I of course realize the legality issue.  Any concerns that I
should have for the distillation also?  Private replies ok if you don't
want to reply on the public forum.

Thanks and brew on.

Pete
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:30:58 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: base grains 

There has been much discussion on the cheap and bad grains that are
available to homebrewers.  Could anyone suggest which ones to stay away
from in terms of being historically bad quality base grains to brew
with.  Seems the belgians were suggested.  What about American/UK
varieties?  Any really good/bad ones?

Thanks,

Pete
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:08:01 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: KItchen Aid


Brewsters:

Santa Myers noticed that Kitchen Aid came with a grain mill and
wondered if Mrs. Claus-Myers would mind sharing her new present
by donating some use time to malt milling.

If, as you said, the price is the same whether you buy the KA or another
mill, I would definitely go with a mill that is intended for the
Homebrewing service. You can power it with a larger motor
( or your drill) fix it into a more permanent arrangement if you
want to. The KA may not produce anything but
flour ( as it is likley intended)  from your grain.

Go with an adjustable mill, it will give you more flexibility and
you can do the two pass crush ( 0.080 and 0.060 in - see archives) I
recommend to get extractions in the 30s as I always do, but never did
with store crushed malt.

Next time your wife wants to make soup in your brewkettle,
you can tell her "no" with a clear heart..


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:17:09 -0500
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis)
Subject: KitchenAid grain mill

Richard asks:

"Would I be better off getting a JSP, Valley, or other mill and
leaving the Kitchen Aid in the kitchen?"

Richard,

Skip the attachment. I looked into it years ago, after Santa brought that
mixer to our house. For less money, you can get something designed to
crush barley malt for brewing, rather than something designed for
grinding flour for baking. Plus, the KitchenAid instructions caution the
user not to grind more than one pound at a time to avoid overheating the
mixer!

In brief: Nice mixer, crappy mill.


Mike Bardallis
Allen Park, MI

"I defy the law of original gravity" - Steve Garvin

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:45:28 -0600
From: "Gregory M. Remake" <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: First Lager Issues

Fellow brewers,

With the onset of colder weather, I'd like to brew my first lager.  I have
several concerns for which I would very much appreciate your collective
guidance.

The first issue is the importance of stability of fermentation temperature.
 I do not have a refrigerator in which to ferment a lager, but I have an
unheated attic.  I live in the Chicago area, and I'm guessing my attic
temperature should vary between about 25F to 40F in January.  However, even
this rather wide range can fluctuate significantly depending on outside
temperatures.  I'm investigating to identify which portion of the attic has
the most stable temperature, but the potential for wider fluctuations
exists, given Chicago's winters.  Can I brew an acceptable lager under
these conditions?  What steps can I take to minimize the fluctuations (no,
The Boss won't let me buy a brewing fridge)?  What optimal temperature zone
should I target, and how long should primary fermentation and conditioning
take?

My next concern is appropriate brewing water.  First off, is this an issue
to worry about refining in the future, or is it worth taking pains to
attempt to optimize from the start?  For this inaugural lager batch, I
wouldn't mind springing for commercially bottled water, if that's my best
effort.  What kind is recommended (spring or demineralized, brand names,
etc.)?  Of course, I'd prefer to use my tap water, with which I brew good
ales.  Does anyone else have favorable experience using Chicago (Lake
Michigan) water for lagers?  In either case (bottled or tap), what sort of
mineral profile is desired, and how do I get there?

Finally, can someone recommend a good all-grain recipe for a first lager,
perhaps tailored for my brewing constraints?  I'd prefer a lighter style to
a darker one, perhaps even a CAP?  There's no need to adhere to any rigid
style guidelines, just a recipe (or general style) that offers a reasonable
probability of drinkable results.  I would also welcome any other lager
brewing pointers with which I might not be familiar as an ale brewer.

Thanks in advance for your wisdom; private email is fine, although other
Digest lager newbies might be interested in your responses.



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:45:44 -0600
From: scott zimmerle <szimmerle at mediaone.net>
Subject: yeast starter

Any idea how many days it might take me to step up a yeast starter to a
pint, a quart, or a gallon?

scott



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:47:10 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Fruit Flys

>>>
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>

A single fact applies to this story: A fruit fly was in the starter, and
the beer placed third in a competition.  Based on this single data
point, fruit flies in starters cause no harm to beer.  The data point may
be in error (because George did not perform the actual tasting), but a
single dubious data point is a hell of a lot better that a bunch of
speculation.
<<<<

Naah, you got it all wrong, Paul.  A single data point is just a possible
hint or beginning.  Only after MANY concurring data points after carefully
controlled conditions can you then have a fact.

Look at it this way, with your thinking, say, when you were learning to
walk, if you fall down upon attempting your first step then this datum will
tell you that you will never walk.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:05:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Naming names

Joe Rolfe said, regarding the recent thread on the varying quality of
malt:
>>>
As to some prods as to who these are and disservice to homebrew
community:
I will not bash/flame/nuke a firm in a public firm - sorry.  I have
and will responded in private email - I will leave it at that.
<<<

I respect that.  However, this kind of information can be of great
value to the community.  Inflammatory, personal or baseless attacks
don't help anyone, but sharing what we know or have observed as well
as guesses and opinions (identified as such) help all of us.  This
forum is like a do-it-yourself Consumer Reports for homebrewers. 
Naming names, in public, can be a good thing.

tim

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:12:59 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! 

>>>>
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
 .....
A steam injected rims heater looks like it can be 
really small. Not that size matters, but my suspicion 
(at this time) is that a satisfactory chamber may only 
need to be about 3 inches long and 3/4 inches in 
diameter.

I plan on trying some different injector designs,  
perhaps even trying a stainless steel air stone as the 
injector.
 ....
<<<<

Your experiments sound like a lot of fun, and you are learning a lot of
useful things, thanks for sharing them with us.  I enjoyed your posts.

I wonder if you would consider injecting the steam directly into the mash
and totally eliminate the need for a chamber.  With the chamber, the steam
could overheat the enzymes because of hot spots.  With the steam injected
into the mash, only the very small area near the 'feathers' would possibly
get overheated to destroy the enzymes.  You are really trying to heat the
mash, so why not do it more directly?  I have had some problems using a coil
chamber RIMS where the heated liquid would take some time to raise the
temperature from the top to the bottom of the mash.  By heating in the
center, this would greatly aid even heating and you would not need as rapid
flow through the RIMS.

>>>>
 ....
Any comments or suggestions related to shifting 
gears or steam injected rims highly welcomed!

Happy New Year!
 ....
<<<<

Keep us posted, this is most interesting.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 13:09:05 -0600
From: Cory Chadwell Page Navigation <chadwell at ssd.fsi.com>
Subject: collective advice

Hey all,

I've got a few questions and I'm sure I'll get them answered here.

I need to add a spigot and ball valve to 3 items.  First, a rectangular cooler 
somewhat similar to a gott in construction but without a drain.  Second, a 10 
gallon aluminum pot.  Third a 3 gallon enamel over steel pot.  I'd like to be 
able to get the parts for this at the local Lowe's/ Home depot type store.  
Does anyone whose done these conversions have the part numbers or part names 
I'd need for this chore.

Next question,  I'd like to use a 5 gallon bucket with a couple hundred little 
holes drilled in it (sitting inside a mash tun) as a false bottom.  The 
rectangular cooler I mentioned earlier is large enough so that a 5 gallon 
bucket slides in just about perfectly.  But I'm wondering what are the 
problems I might have with this setup.  My main reason for desiring this 
particular setup is to ease cleanup and grain removal after my brew session.

Next question, Does anyone know what type of local stores typically stock 
quick disconnects for ball lock kegs, or am I going to have to mail order 
these?  (I ordered several of these about a year ago but lost them in a recent 
move.)

Last question (I think), I'm going to get a cajun cooker so that I don't have 
to screw up the kitchen anymore when I brew.  I have seen the brinkman all in 
one advertised as being a smoker/grill/kettle cooker/ do it all thingy.  I 
wondered if anyone had any experience with this particular model of cooker (my 
wife may be more forgiving of my purchase if she thinks she's going to get a 
smoked turkey out of the deal!)

THX, Cory
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Cory D. Chadwell          FlightSafety International
Design Engineer           2700 N. Hemlock Circle                     
Navigation / Visual       Broken Arrow, Oklahoma 74012       /|
chadwell at ssd.fsi.com      (918) 259-5568                    /c|   -
9186919796 at mobile.att.net (text paging 150 characters)     /  |  /|
- ------------------------------------------------------  <-----s---
                                                      FSI  \  |  \|
                                                       SSD  \c|   -
                                                             \|




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:18:48 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: 12 points of light

Sorry for WTBW.  I am sure that most readers already understand the 
difference between fact and fiction.  So page down if this is too obvious 
for you.

It appears that I have confused a few people with my posts regarding fruit 
flies and home brew contamination.  Let me clarify a few terms and try to 
establish the difference between scientific fact and speculation. 

1.  Fact:  Fruit flies carry bacteria and wild yeasts that are "
capable" of infecting starters and the finished beer.

2.  Fact: A fruit fly landing in a starter *may* cause contamination in 
your beer.

3.  Speculation: A fruit fly landing in a starter *will* cause 
contamination in your beer.

4.  Fact: A beer with a fruit fly in the starter was submitted to a 
contest and won third place. 

5.  Fact: The posted data does not indicate that fruit flies cause 
bacteria contamination problems with beer.

6.  Speculation bordering on conspiracy fantasy: The beer was actually 
contaminated, but the judges were not savvy enough to detect it.

7. Fact: Speculation No. 6 is a based on accepting Speculation No. 3 as 
true.  This makes it a speculation based on a speculation (really, really 
bad - we will have to put you on double secret probation)

8.   Fact: The posted data does not indicate that fruit flies cause 
bacteria contamination problems with beer.  (Did I already say this?).

9.  Another Double Speculation: The beer will have problems later.

10.  Fact: The beer might have problems later.

11.  Fact: In the future, if it is  *proved* that the beer is contaminated 
by bacteria originating from a fruit fly, everything I have stated above 
is still true.

12.  Fact:  I never said that anyone should purposely put fruit flies in 
starters, or that I would not make a new starter if a fruit fly went belly 
up in my air lock.  All I said was that with all speculation aside, the 
only true data point that we have indicates that a fruit fly in your 
starter may not be as bad as everyone is thinks it is.  Just as in many 
other areas of home brewing  (HSA and protein rests for example), the 
"actual effects" of doing something that is perceived as taboo or just 
plain wrong by some of the bigger egos that inhabit the HBD is usually not 
as bad as the "speculated potential effects" that rarely if ever 
occur.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Brew on

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City

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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 14:31:43 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Unique adjuncts

Hi all,

Paul N. graces these pages with another priceless contribution,
reminding us that since nobody has specifically stated that fruit
flies can contaminate your wort, we should assume that they are OK.

I have since perused my brewing books and found that fruit flies are
not specifically forbidden, nor are roaches, snails, seagulls, pigeons,
or myriad other macro and micro organisms.
This should excite many of us, because it opens up a whole new world
of brewing adjuncts and techniques for experimental use.

You could opt to be boring, and stick with ingredients and techniques
that are considered traditional, but that is up to you.

I will once again remind people that you should trust no palates other
than your own and those of people you know and trust.  Where a
beer places in a contest is often of little consequence, as are the 
ramblings
of some HBD contributors.

If you must defile these pages by spitting venom, at least afford the 
target
the decency of properly quoting their post rather than fabricating stuff.
It helps make the attack look less assinine.

Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but sometimes it seems necessary.

George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:06:57 -0000
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: mills and extract efficiency

ok, every one keeps taking swipes at the corona and debating to 
adjust or not to adjust.

before you all go any farther, check this out for extract efficiency:
Batch size 10 Gal
OG - 1.034
grain bill
5.72 lb pale malt
1.14 lb crystal malt
0.47 lb chocolate malt
0.21 lb roasted barley malt
0.37 lb torrified wheat
2.18 lb flaked corn

that makes 10.09 lb grain/10 gal brew or approximately 1 lb/gal 
with extract of 1.034.

I use a corona.

so the real question should be to roll or not to roll

what say ye?

- ----------------------




Reality is that which still exists even after you stop believing in it.


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:55:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: ramp time ...

LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU wrote:
>  I am planning a Munich Lager, using Fawcett's Lager malt as the
>base, and perhaps a lb of Munich, and a touch of Crystal (?), but
>wonder ... ... if I try the suggestion of mashing in at 149 with a
>rest, then 158, then mashout at 170....  why not a rest for beta-glucanase
>at 100 or so?  Is this not needed for a Lager?

It's more a matter of the malt than the style, but perhaps that's what you
meant - a lager malt.  Modern malts, and especially British malts, I would
think, do not need this rest.  I often include it as a enzyme hydration
step rather than a beta-glucanase rest as such.  I have skipped this stage
with no problems, either from beta-glucan or protein.

BTW, for a Munich Helles, make sure your crystal is a very light one, such
as carapils, or you'll end up with a coppery rather than golden brew.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:08:01 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: reusing secondary yeast

>JPullum127 at aol.com writes:
>
>i have a secondary full of beer that has been cold conditioning for 6 weeks
> at 40 degrees.<snip>
>is this still viable after being cold and under beer for so long?

Almost certainly yes.  The fact that it has been cold is a plus - just like
keeping food in the fridge.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:12:23 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part I) 

>"William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com> treated us to a treatise on
>the use of live steam from a pressure cooker for heating.  Nice job, but
>you have reinvented the wheel to an extent.  A search of the archives
>http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread will bring up a thread
>from maybe two years ago.  Since I think it was by one of our Australian
>correspondents, you could do a search for a"steam" and "au".  Perhaps
>you'll find some additional ideas.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:37:04 -0600
From: "Myers, Richard" <Richard.Myers at COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Kitchen Aid Responses

First let me say thank you to all of the people who responded to my question
about the Kitchen Aid Grain Mill attachment and the mash in question.  

Most people indicated that the grain mill was good for making flour, but
would not work properly for brewing.  The consensus was that the husks would
be shredded and that a stuck sparge would probably be the end result.  I did
get one response that said - I bought it, despite all the warnings against
it, and it works great.

The one response that really helped me decide that I should investigate the
other mills said:  If you break your wife's new Kitchen Aid mixer you will
be in a lot of trouble.

On the topic of the mash in on my 3-tier system.  Most people said that they
"lived with" the slow feed from the kettle and that a bigger pot might be a
safety issue (lifting more hot water is not something I want to do).  I will
try the kettle drain and see how it goes, keeping extra hot and cold water
close at hand.

Once again thanks for the information.  This list has been very valuable in
improving my brewing techniques.

Richard Myers
Katy, Texas
Email: Richard.Myers at Compaq.Com




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:43:48 -0500
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: Haughty or Nice?

Alan McKay writes:

> Subject: re: Haughty Europeans

> How about we keep the USAmerican jingoism for groups like alt.jingoism,
and
> keep this forum for brewing?

I'm sorry to say Alan, that you've missed the point of my post.  There was
nothing jingoistic to it.

I travel in the US and offshore, for business and pleasure, and am ALWAYS
in search of good beer.  I am *not* the only one on this list who does.
This list is read in the US, and around the world, and my message was
intended as a reminder that we are ALL worthy of respect.

In my experience, the *vast* majority of people that I have come across in
my travels are friendly, helpful and make for a pleasant encounter.  Just
as a (US) Southerner should not be thought of as dim-witted for the cadence
of his speech,  I do not expect to be treated with arrogant disdain because
of the passport I carry.  I realize that my command of
French/German/Spanish, etc. is poor, but I make the effort.

Just as many ask for recommendations on where to go when traveling,
negative encounters are reason enough to cite places to avoid.  Conversely,
let's remember to be a proper host to the visitors to "our" local.


As for the occasional digression from the pure pursuit of brewing
knowledge, it is this very thing which adds another dimension to the
projected personalities that make up the community of the HBD (IMNSHO).

Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:31:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: iron removal/pH papers?

	The water that I brew with seems to be high iron and tastes very
metallic.  Can the iron be filtered out?  If so, what type of filter
should be used?  Are there other ways to get rid of the metal in my water?
	Also, what are some good pH papers to use.  I am tired of the
crappy brown ones.  Could somebody point me in the right direction?  Any
help would be greatly appreciated.

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR




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---