---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re:Westvleteren 12 Yeast (Rosalba e Massimo)
  Big Brew Recipe ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Sulfate problems (ThomasM923)
  Re: Cock ale (Jeff Renner)
  AHA style guidelines (Alan McKay)
  Brewing a Bavarian Hefeweizen (Alan McKay)
  Maximum extraction via flour (Alan McKay)
  Inexpensive scales (Alan McKay)
  High terminal gravity - Wot hoppened??!!?? (Randy Shreve)
  re Steam RIMS (RobertJ)
  Flaked Barley (needs beta glucan rest?) (LEAVITDG)
  Calcium Chloride (Domenick Venezia)
  RE: extended aeration of wort (Domenick Venezia)
  Buying brewing Equipment (John Adsit)
  Re: Cock ale (Dick Dunn)
  Mills and extract efficiency (Jack Schmidling)
  Looking for food-safe gasket material (ThomasM923)
  Sour Dough ("J. Kish")
  Bell's Homegrown Ale (Bradley Sevetson)
  re:too much foam stability (Kevin TenBrink)
  re rooster ale (Jon Macleod)
  re hemp cake (Jon Macleod)
  Acid Malt and Wheeler (Dan Listermann)
  Getting Hammered (Hammermill grains) ("Steven J. Owens")
  1999 American Homebrewers Assoc. National Conference comes to Kansas City in June ("John Weerts")
  big brew 10/20 (JPullum127)
  Be careful what you Autoclave ("shilo")
  RE: autoclaving/yeast storage ("Dave Whitman")
  Wyeast 2206 Ferment (bkhegemann)
  "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" Recipes + Friar Parts (Jim Bentson)
  more on sour dough (levain) jeff renner's comments (Breadnale)
  Toronto Ontario.. Who Brews? (Jim Wallace)
  more on traditional b akeries,sourdoughs (Breadnale)
  Parafin lined Kegs (Badger)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 22:55:02 -0800
From: Rosalba e Massimo <rosamax at split.it>
Subject: Re:Westvleteren 12 Yeast

I don't know if the bottling yeast is the same as the primary one;
I tried to culture it from a bottle of Wetvl. 12 but nothing happened;
probably because the beer is too strong (I had the same problem with La
Trappe Quadrupel for example).
Then I tried to culture the yeast from a bottle of Westv. 8, this time
with success! I made 2 o 3 steps, then bottled the yeast under beer; I
still have to try a brew with it - I 'll tell you next month!
The starters tasted good, but I can't tell if this was the real Westv.
primary yeast

Cheers
Massimo - Genova ITALY
http://www.split.it/users/rosamax  Max Italian Beer Site!



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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:35:07 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Big Brew Recipe

Scott Murman wrote:

> I once again submit that the Big Brew batch should be Cock Ale.
> Frozen friar parts allowed.

I believe our homebrewing brothers in the monastery would not want to
participate in such an event.--
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA






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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:02:34 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Sulfate problems

In HBD #2916 Bill Frazier wrote:

"Recently I have been trying to rid my Redhawk ESB recipe of an
unpleasant bitter quality.  I believe it can be traced to high
sulfate (152 ppm) in my Johnson County, KS water."

It doesn't seem that a sulfate level of ~150 ppm alone would give you an
intense bitterness. Quite often brewers will add burton salts to brewing water
which raises the sulfate level quite a bit. The result is somewhat harsh when
the beer is green, but after a short while it mellows and enhances the hop
bitterness. However, if sulfate is combined with high levels of magneseum
and/or sodium, an unpleasant bitterness can be the result.
>From my experience, oxidation can cause an unpleasant bitterness. I have no
literature to back me up, I've just noticed that when my handling of my beer
during bottling improved, the unpleasant bitter aftertaste disappeared. Has
anyone read anything about this?

Thomas Murray
Maplewood NJ


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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:32:48 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Cock ale

Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> wrote:

>I once again submit that the Big Brew batch should be Cock Ale.
>Frozen friar parts allowed.

Hope the Vatican doesn't hear about this.  I suppose with the name, it's
obvious that the friar parts you are suggesting be used are those parts
friars have taken vows not to use anyway.  Makes me grimace just to think
about it.  ;-)

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:01:39 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: AHA style guidelines

Ted McIrvine writes :

> And how does one reconcile the differences
> between common brewing wisdom and actual beer style?  For 
> example, I've never seen a recipe that tastes anything like 
> classic Scottish styles such as Belhaven, Froach, Skullsplitter, 
> or Traquair House.  I actually believe that these four exemplars 
> would do badly in a well-judged competition using AHA 
> style guidelines.

There are a lot of problems with the AHA styles, and with the
judging process in general.  In many cases the people setting 
those guidelines have never tasted a true example of the style of 
beer they are pretending to be experts in.  The only thing they've
tasted it billy bob's version of uncle chuck's rendition of the 
beer he remembers his grandfather telling him about
from back in the war.

Personally, I'm not sure how that's suppose to be considered an
example of the style, but that's they way it's done.  I'm sure
there is probably a pretty high percentage of beer judges, too,
who end up judging beers for which they've never tasted a true
example of the style, and end up having to go simply by the
textual description in the AHA guides.

Take my beloved Koelsch, for example.  I've never seen it imported
anywhere.  How many people have actually been to Koeln and tried
the real thing?  I'll bet that number is a lot smaller than the
number of people who think they know what the style is all about.
Hell, I've lived in Cologne for 2 years and I wouldn't be so brash
as to say I know the style.

I've entered a total of one competition, and I strongly suspect
it's going to remain that way.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:06:23 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Brewing a Bavarian Hefeweizen

Omar writes :

> I'm interested in brewing an all-grain Dunkel Weizen which calls 
> for 50% Wheat malt.  I haven't done one of these before but am 
> aware that I will get a stuck sparge.  I purchased a couple of 
> ounces of rice hulls to avoid it.  Can anyone please tell me 
> if 2 oz. will be enough and when do I add them?

50% wheat malt shouldn't be that bad for you, depending upon your
set up.  A cooler and a phil's handles it just fine without the
rice hulls.  I've never used hulls, but  my understanding is that
you add a pound or so at a time.

For the low-down on real Weizens, check the following page.  It's
from a student at Weihenstephen who's won awards within the school
for his Weizen recipe.

http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/english/homebrew.htm

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:10:10 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Maximum extraction via flour

Matthew Harper writes :

> Does this mean if I took my grain, turned it into powder and mixed
> it with a bunch-o-rice hulls in my tun I'd get the best extraction,
> provided the hulls performed as an adequate filter bed as the grain
> husks normally do?  Would there be too much tanin extraction?

The triple-roller mills that the mega-breweries use first crack
the husk free of the kernel, and blow it off to the side.  The
kernel then goes down to get ground to flour, and the husk are
added back at the end.

I personally wouldn't go grinding my husks up, as you probably
would get some wicked tannin extraction.

But you can always try a 100% wheat beer your way.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:16:03 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Inexpensive scales

Wal-Mart.

Check out this :
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/equipment.html#measuring

Admittedly I don't have a gram scale, but I can measure fractions
of an ounce pretty darned accurately.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 09:25:48 -0500
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: High terminal gravity - Wot hoppened??!!??

To the collective:

I recently made what was supposed to be a Barleywine.  The OG was 1080 
and was a disappointment to begin with as SUDS told me that the OG
should have been 1119 at my normal efficiency.

A week later when I racked to the secondary, I was a little surprised to
see that the SG was at 1040 considering the monster sized starter I
pitched (two quart starter with the spent liquid poured off, with
another pint added the evening before brew day).

Two weeks later during bottling (it's gonna be yummy!) the FG was still
1040!!

I used Wyeast 1098, and the grain bill was 14# of Maris Otter for a
THREE gallon batch.  Single temp infusion (sort of - had a little temp
waffling from 154 to 150 to 156) for 60 minutes.  I did use Irish Moss
for this batch.  

This is the highest gravity brew I've made to date.  What gives with the
high terminal gravity?  Did the mash temp waffling leave behind a bunch
of unfermentables?

Thanks for your help!
Randy in Salisbury, NC (expecting an ice storm)




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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:52:24 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: re Steam RIMS

Kyle Druey wrote:

I have enjoyed reading Bill Macher's steam injected RIMS post.......

I don't no of any RIMSers out there that
have problems with conversion due to denatured enzymes.  Someone last
year posted than they were getting 4 F/min ramp rates with their
prototype steam RIMS, instead of the usual 1 to 1.5 F/min.

Kyle I think you may be referring to some of my posts last year regarding
our HERMS system. It boosts at 4 deg/min, but we keep recirculating wort
temp below 158F. RIMS with a heating element can't boost that quickly.

Steam injection sounds intersting. If I recall their were several posts
about a year or more ago on direct injection of steam into the mash. I'm
not sure if any gave info as to rate of boost. 

My only concern is the need for an additional burner. I like one under each
vessel (all kettles) to reduce the overall brewing time. HERMS or RIMS
would use the existing burners whether you use a kettle or a cooler as your
mash tun
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:08:54 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Flaked Barley (needs beta glucan rest?)

I have recently skippped the acid rest/ beta glucan (104 F) but then
read through Fix and Fix, where they state that while the flakes
are pregelatinized and CAN go diretly to saccharification, the
"gums, like beta-glucans.." must be dealt with in the mash...
Have I made a mistake in not resting at 104 F for a Bock (4lb
Vienna malt, 6lb Fawcett Lager malt...)?

Also, one local pub brewer suggeste puting the flaked barley into the
mashtun when recirculating and sparging...ha anyone heard of this?
 ...Darrell
<Plattsburgh, NY, about 500 miles nnEast of Mr Renner>


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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:29:44 -0800
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Calcium Chloride


William Frazier states in HBD 2916:
>
>The first problem is with ratio of Ca and Cl.  The second problem is that
>the label doesn't indicate whether the chemical is anhydrous, dihydrate
>or another of the possible forms of calcium chloride (NOTE: The shop
>owner called the supplier and said it was anhydrous).

Put a pinch of the CaCl2 on a plate and if it "melts" then you have
the anhydrous.  If it doesn't melt then you've got the dihydrate, 
CaCl2.2H20.  If you have the dihydrate then one gram contributes,
Ca 72.1 and Cl 127.3

Happy New Year!

Domenick Venezia   
demonick at zgi dot com

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download
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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:10:49 -0800
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: RE: extended aeration of wort


Fred L. Johnson said in HBD 2917 (snipped a lot)
>
>QUESTION for the collective: Rather than oxygenate with purified oxygen,
>why should not homebrewers (and commercial brewers for that matter)
>simply aerate intermittently or continuously with an aquarium pump for an
>extended period of time (hours)?

Check out HBD 2622 (29 Jan 1998) for my own personal tale of woe
regarding aerating too late (3 days) into the fermentation.  My 
only batch that ever went down the drain!

Once fermentation starts and alcohol is produced, any aeration
will tend to oxidize the alcohol and fermentation by-products producing
off-flavors.  Maribeth Raines once stated that she aerates her wort for
the initial 12-24 hours, but NEVER beyond 24 hours.  I find making
starters easier and more pleasant than aerating so I've found a
trade-off between aeration and starter size.

>As I recently posted to the digest, I intend to start aerating my
>starters this way, decanting off the flocculated yeast.  (Additional
>comments are greatly appreciated.)

This is my standard procedure.  I've grown starters with continuous
aeration with no brewing problems (it was a hassle), but I've settled on a
3 x 750 ml starter scheme (OG: 1.045) with aeration at each decant/refresh
step.  My starters take up to 2 weeks, but they generate a LOT of yeast,
and need minimal attention.  

>How does one determine the optimal amount of aeration, assuming this
>could be different for different batches?

My guess is that the higher the OG the more O2 your yeast needs.  Both
starter size and aeration should scale with OG, and inversely scale 
with fermentation temperature (low temp fermentations should have huge
starters and be very well aerated).

>Will such yeast ferment beer any differently than yeast cultured more
>conventionally?

In my experience, I have noticed no difference.  Remember that once
pitched into sufficiently aerated wort, your yeast population will
at least triple.  This means that only 1/3 of your yeast mass was
produced under starter conditions, the other 2/3 was produced in the
fermenter. 

Domenick Venezia   
demonick at zgi dot com

(Comments/flames will go unanswered for 2 weeks - vacation w/o laptop!)

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download
and archival fee of US$ 500.  E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.



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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:32:00 -0700
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Buying brewing Equipment

A number of posts have asked for places to purchase certain equipment
cheaply.  A lot of it is for some unusual equipment, but some is pretty
routine.  I would like some thoughts on this.

When I first began to accumulate brewing equipment, I searched around
for the cheapest way to get the things I needed.  One day I went down to
my local home brew store for some supplies, only to find they were in
the process of moving to a new location.  They needed a smaller store
with less overhead. I had a sudden sense of panic: what if they went out
of business?  Where would I get my grains and hops and--most of all--the
advice I seem to need for everything I do?

So when I needed a new, larger kettle for brewing, I bought it at the
home brew store, even though I could have gotten it cheaper in a
department store.  One glance at the immersion chiller on their shelf
told me I had all the technical expertise it takes to make one myself,
but I bought the chiller on the shelf.  Our local giant liquor store had
a half-priced sale on home brew supplies, and I didn't even go in the
door.  If I ever get around to needing something special, the first
thing I'll do is see if they can get it for me.

I give them all the business I can.  If it costs me a few dollars more
here and there, it's worth it.  It's like a cheap insurance policy.

I want them to be there when I need them.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: 2 Jan 99 10:26:14 MST (Sat)
From: ddunn at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Re: Cock ale

Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> wrote:
> I once again submit that the Big Brew batch should be Cock Ale.
> Frozen friar parts allowed...

Ouch!  What a set-up!  Would friar parts make it an abbey-style?  Let's try
fryer parts instead, and avoid the cannibalism issue.  But aren't most
fryers hens?  For the sake of peace in the chicken-factory, I'd think they
would have to be...so you probably can't buy a conveniently packaged frozen
cock.  (No, leave that one right there.)  Does the sex of the bird make any
difference other than in the name of the recipe?

And surely you wouldn't use such a prepackaged item unless you were doing
an extract recipe.  If it's all-grain it would have to be all-bird.

>...Extra credit for those groups that start with a live chicken...
That really should be a separate category; it's like malting your own grain
before you brew.  Still, all things considered, I'd rather start with a
fresh barnyard bird than the questionable commercial frozen parts...less
chance of making something really toxic.
>...and can de-feather and sparge at the same time.
            ^^^^^^^^^^that's "pluck"
Could use a few more details.  Pluck the bird but leave the skin on?
Eviscerate it (gut it)?  I hope so.  What about the head and feet--ok to
remove them?
- ---
Dick Dunn          ddunn at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA


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Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 21:49:26 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Mills and extract efficiency

"Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
 
"Does this mean if I took my grain, turned it into powder and mixed
it with a bunch-o-rice hulls in my tun I'd get the best extraction,
provided the hulls performed as an adequate filter bed as the grain
husks normally do?  Would there be too much tanin extraction?

Tanin extraction is another one of the things that folks like to
write books about and I am sure the automatic answer from them
would be... yes.

However, it seems more obvious that you would get more that just
tanin, you would have husk flavored beer.  Worse yet, you would
problably have beer that would never clear because the husk
flour would not convert to sugar and probably not filter out.

I know nothing about rice hulls but if you wanted to do that, you
would have to run your malt through a combine or husk remover.

All this is academic of course, as it's a lot easier to mill it
properly and any difference in yield would not amount to enough
to make it worth doing anything else.

js


- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:29:32 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Looking for food-safe gasket material

I came across a small pump recently that I would like to use for my brewing
setup.
When I opened the pump head up to examine it, I damaged the gasket. I wonder
if anyone knows where I can get a FDA approved gasket material (a small
quantity of course) to make a new one from. Silicone seems to be an
appropriate material, however I can't locate a source for a small amount. I'm
located in the NYC Metro area. Thanks.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:54:57 -0800
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Sour Dough

Jeff Renner,
    What an amazing coincidence! I was about to
ask the collective about a yeast-combo I heard 
about from White Labs.  They have a yeast that
produces both acetic and lactic acids, and I
was going to ask the group if they thought that
yeast would work fine in a sour dough. Also,
would it need to be fed a pinch of sugar to
keep the bacteria alive, as the flour alone
may not be enough. Your French Bread answered
all the questions!!   Thanks!
Joe Kish in Portland, Oregon 980 mi West of JR.


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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 14:56:43 -0600
From: sevetson at milbrandt0.wustl.edu (Bradley Sevetson)
Subject: Bell's Homegrown Ale

Dear Fellow Brewers and Drinkers:

        While visiting a spectacular beer (and wine) emporium in Chicago 
over Christmas, I found all sorts of amazing beers that I'd previously only 
read about, as well as many I'd never heard of.  In the latter category was 
a beer called Bell's Homegrown Ale.  I'm a pretty big fan of Bell's---I've 
been to Kalamazoo twice for no other reason than to visit the brewery---but 
I'd never heard of this particular variety.  Has anyone tried this?  Is it a 
hemp beer, as the name implies?  Would it make you test positive in a drug 
test?  I liked the fact that it was being sold in plain white six-pack 
containers and was very discreetly tucked away behind some of the other 
Bell's beers, as if there were something underground and illicit about its 
presence.
        Please reply either publicly or privately, as your judgment dictates.

                        Thanks,
                                Brad Sevetson
                                St. Louis, MO



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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:07:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin TenBrink <zzymurgist at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:too much foam stability

In his response to my inquiry, Jeff raised the following questions:

>>How are you washing your glasses?<<
Hand wash with warm water (Lansing city) and palmolive dish soap,
rinse and let air dry.

>>BTW, what style is this?  It's fermented like a lager although not
lagered in a classic manner(32F for more than two weeks).<<

I wanted to lager this one longer, however, my relocation from UT to
MI forced me to bottle this one sooner than I had wanted.  I knew once
we got back to MI we would not have time to brew due to looking for a
house and my wife (and brew partner) needing to find employment. 
Therefore, we kind of rushed this one along a little.  As to what
style I would call this one, I would have to say it is a
"TenBrink-hoplover-had-some-lager-yeast-ready
 -to-pitch-and-some-homegrown-hops-we-did-not-
want-to-move-across-the-country"

>>What do you figure is its bitterness level?<<

I would have to say this beer is WAY bitter.  More bitter than ANY
commercial beer I have ever had.  I did not run the numbers thru any
IBU calcs, but I would have to say 80 is on the low side of being
accurate.  The aroma is not as strong as I would have liked, and the
bitterness is a little over the top, even for me.

>>Any idea why it finishes with 85% apparent attenuation?  Lots of
oxygenation?<<

Bingo......lots of O2 prior to fermentation, along with a pretty
healthy sized starter ( I just used all my stored 2112 lager yeast to
make one MONGO starter )
I rigged up a little device to O2 this batch by taking an old piece of
racking cane, about 3 inches long, drilling some small holes in it,
hooked it inline with my siphon hose towards the end, put a larger
piece of tube around it, closed off the ends of the larger tube around
the outside of the rigid cane and pumped pure O2 into this outer tube
while the siphon was going.  The wort picked up O2 via the bernoulli
principle(?) as it passed thru the racking cane with holes in it.  I
opened up the O2 tank to 10 lpm.
I gave this gadget to a brewing friend in SLC before I left and have
yet to construct a new one.

- --Kevin
Lansing, MI




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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 19:33:10 -0500
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re rooster ale

Sounds like the cock ale of myth and legend.   I've always been curious
about it.   Anybody really ever tried?




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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 19:37:51 -0500
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re hemp cake

I agree with your guess of "no" on the drug test.  Hemp is certainly in
the cannibus family, but so are hops.

As to what to do with it.  Sorry, but I have used hemp seed in a beer
and really enjoyed it.  Be happy to elaborate if this seems like
something you can toast and mash.

Mike




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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:42:11 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Acid Malt and Wheeler

A.J. Zanyk asked about acidulated malt (saur malz)  and whether or not it

could substitute for pilsner malt.  Just taste a single grain and you 
will
instantly have your answer.  Saur Malz is made to reduce the pH of mashes

and still conform to the Reinheitsgebot.  A little dab will do ya!  


I have used it in dry stouts to mimic Guinness.  3% does nicely.  I would

like to explore  a psuedo Berliner Weiss with it.  Perhaps lambics too.

Ken Pendergrass asks about Graham Wheeler and Roger Prost's books.  I 
love
them.  I got my first two books from Mr. Wheeler five years ago at the
HWBTA or HBWTA ( depending on which side of the pond you are on) 
conference
in Brighton England.  I went up to London afterward and had a Beamish 
Stout
at the Shakespear Pub across the street from Victoria Station.  I made
Wheelers recipe when I got home and it was dead nuts on.  I was stunned. 
 


Unlike some others who mearly make an educated guess at how to brew a 
brand
of beer, Wheeler takes the information Prost gets from the brewers of the

beers themselves and arrives at his recipes.  These recipes can sometimes

be accruate to a fault in that some of the ingredients are difficult to
find.  His later books have been made more ingredient friendly.  I tend 
to
brew two different ways.  Completely gonzo ( buckwheat beer, 79 grain
beers, ect.)  or based closly on Wheelers recipes.

When using his recipes you should remember that they are based on 25 
points
per lb per gallon and 20% hop utilization.  He expects that you will do
better, but he feels that it is better to come out ahead than to wonder
where you screwed up unlike some other authors.

Dan Listermann               dan at listermann.com

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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:52:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Getting Hammered (Hammermill grains)

Hi folks,
> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 10:01:14 -0500
> From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
> Subject: hammermills
> 
> Matthew Hammer writes about pulverizing grain to flour to get maximum
> extraction.  Years ago we toured the Weidmer? Brewing in Portland Oregon
> and they did a number of contract brews.  Anyway my foggy memory recalls
> that for brews where cost was the major consideration, they hammermilled
> to flour, mashed somehow and relied on a centrifuge to extract the bits
> of husk.  

     Oddly enough, last night I read a fairly long-winded and funny
magazine advertisement (from a recent issue of Fast Company) for
Maker's Mark liqouor (never tasted it myself; I tend to stick to
single malt scotches and irish whiskeys).

     The ad talked about precisely this, claiming that most companies
use faster, more grain-efficient hammermills while they use rolling
mills.  It also claimed that hammermills tend to "scorch" the grain
due to the high speeds at which the grain zipped around the chamber
while being hammered.

     I have no idea whether this is true or not, or whether said
scorching would have any impact on brewing beer vs. whiskey.
 
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:37:15 -0800 (PST)
> From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
> Subject: Re: Cock ale
> 
> > I have several recipes for "cock ale" in a couple of my historical
> > books..  Cindy Renfrow's book _A Sip Through Time_ has four of
> > them, dating from 1550 - 1780.  This disgusting concept usually
> > had a recipe of something like 2-10 gallons of fermenting ale, and
> > a dead plucked chicken.  Wheee..
> > 
> > badger
> 
> I once again submit that the Big Brew batch should be Cock Ale.
> Frozen friar parts allowed.  Extra credit for those groups that start
> with a live chicken, and can de-feather and sparge at the same time.
> The folks at Guinness records couldn't possibly refuse.  It would be a
> record to stand for all time.

     And then there's always "goat scrotum ale", which seems to boil down
to (to coin a phrase :-) cleaning out your fridge and throwing it all into
the pot...

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com



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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:32:10 -0600
From: "John Weerts" <jweerts at kcbiermeisters.org>
Subject: 1999 American Homebrewers Assoc. National Conference comes to Kansas City in June

For Immediate Release

KCBM news release

AHA, Kansas City Bier Meisters to host "The Last Great Homebrew Party of the
20th Century" next June in Kansas City

Lenexa, KS: Kansas City will be host to "The Last Great Homebrew Party of
the 20th Century" according to plans released by the American Homebrewers
Association. The nation's most avid homebrewers will descend on Kansas City
June 24-26, 1999 for the AHA's Annual National Conference. Concurrent with
the conference will be Second Round and Best of Show judging in the AHA's
National Homebrew Competition, the worldms largest homebrew competition.
Judging will take place in 28 recognized styles of ale, lager and mead.

The conference will feature homebrew demonstrations as well as talks from
some of the country's foremost authorities on the subject. Already on the
slate are:

 - Ray Daniels: Author of "Designing Great Beers" and "101 Great Homebrew
Ideas." Ray also organizes the annual Real Ale Festival in Chicago and has
twice won the Midwest Brewer of the Year title.

 - Charlie Papazian: President of the Association of Brewers and author of
several books including "The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing."

 - Dr. Paul Farnsworth: Professor of Brewing Science and Microbiology,
University of Texas-San Antonio

 - Steve Bradt: Head brewer at Free State Brewing Company in Lawrence, Kan.

 - David Houseman: Member AHA's Board of Advisors

 - Al Korzonas: Author of "Homebrewing: Volume1"

Several social events are also I the works with one evening devoted to a
celebration of Kansas City's Blues and Bar-B-Que tradition.

The Kansas City Bier Meisters, Kansas City's largest homebrew club is
spearheading the local effort along with other area clubs ZZ Hops, Pint and
Pummel and The Lawrence Brewer's Guild.

For Details, Contact:

Local:
Alberta Rager
Kansas City Bier Meisters
Phone: (913) 962-2501
alberta at kcbiermeisters.org
http://www.kcbiermeisters.org/BBB99.htm

National:
Paul Gatza
American Homebrewers Association
Phone: (303)447-2825
paulg at aob.org





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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:35:42 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: big brew 10/20

i'd like to hear from anyone who made the extract version of aha's may day big
brew barleywine and has tasted it. my partner and i have been thinking about
doing one this month for next new years eve. anything you would suggest/
change/ do exactly the same?.    i was thinking the london 3 yeast from wyeast
might be nice in it    thanks     marc 1


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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:49:06 -0800
From: "shilo" <renielsen at jps.net>
Subject: Be careful what you Autoclave

Knew of some folks about ten years ago at a major university that tried to
"cook" their beer in a Autoclave in one of the school labs, once!

A carboy full of a extract "batch" exploded in the autoclave. Made a real
mess out of it. They thought it would allow them to "cook" the beer in a
sanitary environment. Fortunately no one was hurt.

Be careful what you put in the autoclave, especially closed containers and
such. Like Norm Abrahms says, "read and follow the directions that caome
with all your power tools!".



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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:22:39 -0500
From: "Dave Whitman" <dwhitman at fast.net>
Subject: RE: autoclaving/yeast storage

Jim Liddil suggests using endotoxin-free water, lab grade agar and synthetic
wort in studying the effects of water storage on yeast.  He has made these
suggestions previously, and I considered them but decided against for a
couple reasons:

1. The survival rates I'm seeing are (to me at least) surprisingly high
already.  If the samples were all around 5% viability, I might go rooting
about for toxins that were killing them off, but that just turns out not to
be the case.

2. More fundamentally, the changes would conflict with my goals for the
experiment.  I'm trying to optimize a technique for general use without
exotic/expensive ingredients. I intentionally used ordinary table salt
rather than the AR grade NaCl that I've got sitting on my shelf for exactly
this reason. R/O or distilled water can be purchased cheaply at grocery
stores.  My one exotic ingredient (KHP) is available via mail order at one
of the suppliers I list for only $8/100g, a lifetime supply for a home yeast
rancher.

Not so long ago in discussing a related experiment, Jim himself said:

>Again the reason for doing this test was to test, in general, how well this
>technique works and is it subject to contamination ... So I wanted this to
>be a test that some what represented a real world situation, not some ideal
>that 99% of you will never achieve.

I agree with him.  <grin>

Jim also asks:

> Also it is not clear from the discussion on the web page whether a t=0
> measurement of viability was made.

I agree that t=0 data would be interesting, but unfortunately, t=3 weeks is
the earliest I could get. It took me 2.5 weeks to get the initial cell
concentration data, working after hours on a microscope at work before
running home to my parental duties.  Without the cell concentrations, I
couldn't do the dilutions necessary to streak the viability plates.  I'll be
getting several more points that should give us a feel for the kinetics.



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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:34:25 -0600
From: bkhegemann at computerland.net
Subject: Wyeast 2206 Ferment

Long-time lurker, first-time poster.  Thanks in advance for any help 
you can provide; thanks in retrospect for all the great info.  Y'all are 
great!  

I'm brewing my first lager and I have some questions about the 
yeast/ferment.

The details:  5-gallon batch, infusion mashed at 155'F, gravity of 
1.053 into the fermenter.  As for the starter: pitched yeast from fully 
inflated Wyeast 2206 pack into 12 ounces 1.040 wort at 68'F.  
When the surface of this was covered in a thin layer of foam (after 
about 24 hours), I pitched the entire 12 ounces into 24 ounces 
1.040.  Stored this at 54'F.  After 30 hours, there was a thin layer 
of foam on the starter's surface, at which point I pitched entire 36-
ounce starter into the fermenter at 54'F.

After 8 hours, what look like tan icebergs are floating in a layer 
near the middle (top to bottom) of the beer, and there's some 
sediment (1/2") at the bottom of the carboy.  After 22 hours, the 
'bergs have risen to the surface and bubbles are now coming 
through the airlock, about 1 per 90 seconds.  At 32 hours, bubbles 
are coming 8 or 9 per minute and there's a 1/2" layer of foam and 
yeast(?) on the beer's surface.  From this point on, it looks like my 
ale fermentations, with a thick "foam and putty" layer on the 
surface.  The temp rises to 56'F over 4 days, coinciding with the 
bubbling rate rising to 45 per minute, then over the next 5 days, the 
temp falls to 52'F and the bubbling slows to 20 per minute.  At this 
point (yesterday afternoon), all of the 'bergs and putty had fallen to 
the bottom of the carboy, so I transferred to the secondary.  Gravity 
is 1.026.  Bubbling in the secondary is very slow (1 per 100 
seconds).  There's a thin layer of foam on the surface and a layer, 
maybe 1/4", of sediment.  No apparent off flavors, just hops and 
sweet.

Questions:

Any thoughts on the starter prep?  

How typical is this for a lager fermentation?  It seemed more like 
my ale ferments (in slow motion) than I expected.  In particular, I 
didn't expect the surface activity from a "bottom fermenting" yeast.

I'm expecting a final gravity around 1.013 -- think it'll get there?  
Seems I transferred too soon.  One sees suggestions of 
transferring to the secondary after the yeast/foam layer drops.  
With my ales, the gravity is usually much closer to the final gravity 
at this point.  

I'm thinking of leaving it at 52'F for another week or two while 
monitoring the gravity, and then cooling to <40'F for four weeks.  
I've saved the slurry for my next batch so I suppose I could repitch 
some of this.  Necessary?

TIA for any comments.  Private e-mail OK.  
 -Brad, brewing in Mid-MO.



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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:27:13 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" Recipes + Friar Parts

Hi All and Happy New Year

The other day Ken Pendergrass  posted the following :

(snip)  " I'm just tasting the first bottles of a batch of stout I made
from the "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" Wheeler and
Protz,Guinness Export Stout p.108 recipes (grain) and I'm disappointed." 

(snip)   "Have you tried a recipe from this book? I'm doubly disappointed
because I have a batch of Hoegaarden Wit p.160 ageing in the secondary."

Ken , I tried the recipe for St Arnould's Biere de Garde "Reserve du
Brasseur" (pg 97) and I really like it. My wife thinks its her favorite
beer to date. I have never tasted the original so I cant say if how it
compares.The only problem with their recipes is no specific yeast
suggestions are given. I am currently making an Einbecker Maibock (pg 144)
and find the recipe close to Daryll Richman's clone attempt in his "Bock"
book in the Classic Beer Style Series.

Regarding your problem, I have often found that Guinness clones don't taste
much like Guinness so don't be too disappointed.

PS Does anyone know if they have  fruit flies in the Guinness plant??


*****

In one of the more amusing misspellings in a post Scott Murman wrote:

"I once again submit that the Big Brew batch should be Cock Ale.
Frozen friar parts allowed.  "

To which I say :

Wow!!   Frozen friar parts! I always wondered how they enforced celibacy in
those monasteries.  While violating the "Purity law", this certainly
appears to be an appropriate adjunct  given the style. 

Jim Bentson 
Centerport NY







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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:00:25 EST
From: Breadnale at aol.com
Subject: more on sour dough (levain) jeff renner's comments

happy to hear that there is a fellow baker out there! I manage a highly
acclaimed bakery in Sonoma, Ca. (Artisan Bakers). While baking and brewing
truly do go hand in hand, and most bakers I know are interested in beer and
vice versa, I thought I'd expand on Jeff's comments.

It's true that one can get cultures from famous bakeries around the world,
however, you cannot think of them in the same was as brewers yeast. Sour dough
cultures can be thought of more like Lambic cultures. They truly are open to
the whim of the environment. You can buy one of these cultures, make some
bread, feed it a few times and boom! it's no longer the Poilane culture. It's
now whatever happens to be growing in your kitchen, in addition to the Poilane
culture. Natural yeast in the sf bay area, is quite a bit more sour tasting
than say in San Diego, where i came from. Such is the difference between
different strains. Sometimes it can be a bit of a struggle to get the correct
amount of sourness from these yeasts. As Jeff correctly pointed out, French
sourdough (levain) is not as sour as say the sourdough wwe make in our bakery.
However, we can manipulate the yeast to still give us an authentic french
style sourdough, with the structure, and character of a SD without much
sourness, which would actually be a defect!

Hope this helps, now back to liquid bread,
Jim

P.S. oh, by the way, contrary to what many books will tell you, sourdough is
much more consistent and easier to work with than yeasted breads


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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:13:27 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Toronto Ontario.. Who Brews?

After a New Years visiting friends in Toronto, I noted a lack of
homebrewing presence. My best friend in Toronto has come to see my basement
full of kegged HB as a VERY good idea and has started to brew. I helped him
with a couple of batches while visiting. I was appalled at the quality and
lack of product in HB stores.

I am hoping that we simply didn't find the right sources. 
If you are Home Brewing in the Brampton/Toronto area please respond by
private email with any info on sources.

Also, if there are any active HB clubs in the area it would also be nice to
know about them

Thanks
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:13:03 EST
From: Breadnale at aol.com
Subject: more on traditional b akeries,sourdoughs

Hey,
Rod writes:

Since they use a running sour dough

the yeast mix tends to be a work in progress and the bakery tends to harbor
the

yeast culture used in the breads.    So available are these yeasts that new

starters can be made from airborne yeast simply by setting a starting
substrate

out for a yeast collection although I doubt this is frequently done.

Rod's pretty close, but not quite on target. What he's talking about here is
what you can do to start a brand new culture. True, the airborne yeasts
probably do contribute, but what is more important is the action of adding
more flour and water to yesterdays dough or, as Jeff points out, to the
culture used for this purpose. French  call this the chef, in America, we
generally refer to it as the Mother.
making a sourdough culture is extremely easy, and you surely do not need to
purchase a culture. Especially since, after a few days, it will no longer be
the culture you purchased! Mix up equal amounts of flour(preferably organic)
and water, let it sit two days, pour off half, double the amount. Do this
everyday now for 4-7 days. You'll find with each feeding, it gets stronger.
finally, you'll be able to leaven  a bread dough with it!

Good luck and have fun!
Jim


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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:30:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Badger <badger at nwlink.com>
Subject: Parafin lined Kegs


Greetings Oh great beer gods...

Got a question for those of you who have actually managed to use Oak kegs
in brewing.  

Say for intance I was able to get my hands on a parafin lined keg. (hard
to find buggers, but i might be able to get one) And i wanted to use in a
tradition english sense.  here are some questions..

1. did the english ever use lined kegs? (in or out of period?) Parafin or
pitch lined kegs are the keywords my memory dredges up...

2. how do i use them so as to not screw them up..
a. how do i clean and prepare it initially?
b. how do i clean and prepare it immeditatly after use?
c. how do i clean and prepare it for storage between uses?

3. how do i move them? (ie. when can i set them up for use, after moving
them.) (how long does it take to settle?)

4. How do set them up for dispensing..  I have seen stands, and hooks that
hold them up in the air.

5. any good books on the history, and use of lined kegs?

I appreciate any direction the list can give me in this matter, and hope
to compile the results for others to use, so send it to me privatly, at
this adress, or at my work adress, branderr at microsoft.com

Thanks in Advance!
 
**************************************************
Brander (Badger) Roullett  email:badger at nwlink.com
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger

SCA: Frederick Badger, AoA, Light of St. Bunstable, Green Leaf
Squire to Viscount Sir Nicholaus Barchatov
Pursuivant At Large, Senior Marshal



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---