---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Propane Parts/ Rusted Element Echo/ St Pats ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Brewer's Pics (Eric.Fouch)
  liquors - information ("Mike Allred")
  Counterflow Cleaning and Astringency (Dan Listermann)
  Beer color chart? (Jeffry D Luck)
  Cleaning CF chillers (John Wilkinson)
  Re: Springfield MA ("John Griswold")
  Beer Trays (Antne56)
  St. Pats email address (Steve)
  All Grain Stout Recipe ("rrscott")
  yet another fruitflythread ("Ratkiewich, Peter")
  Alt taste profile (Dean Fikar)
  Re: Scottish Ale or Scotch Ale (Rod Prather)
  Fruit fly elimination (Rod Prather)
  Reichelbrau Eisbock and that strong Swiss beer ("George De Piro")
  Decoction & Dextrins (John Varady)
  Mash Question ("Houseman, David L")
  re: Taste profile of Alt (David Kerr)
  Re: Fruit Fly elimination (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Sports drinks and return policies (John Adsit)
  Trommer's (Jeff Renner)
  St. Pat's ("Sieben, Richard")
  St.Pats Debate, a word from the original customer ("Trent Neutgens")
  St. Pat's Summary (Brandon Brown)
  Motor Oil Beer - Any Hope??? ("Randy A. Shreve")
  Indianapolis SS 52 gallon drum interest? (David A Bradley)
  Sanitizing Wort Chiller (tbevans)
  hydrogen beer (AKGOURMET)
  St. Pat's Response (don oconnor)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:28:40 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Propane Parts/ Rusted Element Echo/ St Pats

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about
locating parts for propane, this is by far the biggest response I've
had in 5+ years on HBD.  Thanks again!

The majority of replies suggested a full-service purveyor of
propane and propane accessories (How far is Arlen, TX
anyway?).  I did try three of these, but had no luck, though stocks
were low and staff were busy due to the cold spell we're having
here in central California (lows in the 30s, highs in the 30s).  Had I
not been in a hurry, I could have ordered anything I wanted from
any of these stores.

Another leading suggestion was RV parts and service places,
and Robert A. was right, we do have many of these 'round here,
though I didn't visit any.  BBQ stores and plumbing supply places
also received multiple mention.

Metal Fusion in La reportedly sells needle valves to fit their
burners.  Had I been willing to wait for mail order on the valves,
one poster gave me detailed instructions on how to hook
everything together.

Two HBDers recommended Beer, Beer, and MoreBeer in the SF
Bay Area, www.morebeer.com reportedly a great source for brass
fittings of all sorts.  This last recommendation came with the
caveat, "If you don't have a local shop that can help you" that
made me pause a bit, in light of the recent thread.  So I went
down to Barley & Wine, and though Wayne didn't have needle
valves, he did have a regulator/hose ass'y (with valve) that he
sold me for $10!  This allowed me to use a propane tank Y and
separate regulators for each burner, as two other people had
suggested.  I found this Y for $16 at the local military
surplus/camping gear/skinhead supply shop.

Thanks again to everyone, and apologies if I missed anyone
with a direct reply.

***************************************************************************

Like Dana Edgell, my new Chromalox low density water heater
element in my RIMS has rusted after one RIMS session and two
dry (wet actually) runs.  Any thoughts, or better yet, solutions?
***************************************************************************

St Pats:
Anyone still interested in this thread ought to do a search on St
Pats over on rec.crafts.brewing.  Seems that Lynne is the
Charlie P of homebrew shop owners, for whatever reason.
***************************************************************************

Cheers,
Randy in Modesto, CA (On the way to everywhere, not near anywhere)



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Date: 11 Jan 1999 13:30:45 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Brewer's Pics


HBD-

Mike wonders:
"
Am I the only one who would like a web page set up with everyone's
picture on it?  I would love to know what Alan, Jim L., etc.  look like.
 Does anyone else think that this would be a good idea...waste of time...
?  Comments please.
"
Some of our ugly mugs (HBDPAE Participants) are on display at:

http://brew.oeonline.com/~brewola/palexperiment_breweries.html

Just don't hold up MY picture with one hand.....

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:39:00 -0800
From: "Mike Allred" <mike.allred at malnove.com>
Subject: liquors - information 


Does anyone know of a good source for information on the ingredients for   
different liquors?  I'm looking for a book or a FAQ that explains the   
ingredients and process differences between say a single malt and a   
triple malt scotch.  Does scotch have hops in it?  What is Rum made from?   
 Is there such a thing as a distilled mead?  ... etc...




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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:28:27 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Counterflow Cleaning and Astringency

Nathan Kanous asked about how to keep his counterflow chiller clean.  I
have been using one for years now and this is what I have found to work. 

After I use it I rinse it out with water and then iodophor solution.  I
drain all that I can and let it dry. 


Before I use the chiller I turn the kettle valve on without the water on.
 

I throw away the first half pint or so of wort and let a few pans of hot
wort scald the inside of the chiller.  All this wort gets recirculated 
back
into the kettle.  Then I turn on the water and start the chilling.  


A word of caution.  Be very carefull who you let borrow your chiller.  I
had to pass a kegs worth of caustic to clean out mine one time.

Michael Beck asks about his astringent porter.  When I first started all
grain brewing I had a fit with dark beers.  They were all astringent.  I
found out that if I did not mash the dark grains, but rather mixed them 
in
at the sparge, there was no astringency.  There is little or no starch in

these grains so they don't need to be mashed anyway.  The one danger in
doing this of course is that you might forget to add the dark grains.

Dan Listermann             dan at listermann.com

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Date: 11 Jan 1999 16:33:36 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Beer color chart?

Greetings guru's.

I'm looking for a color chart of some sort which shows 
the variety of beer colors.  Could anyone could send me 
a web-site or bitmap?

Yea, yea, yea, I know all the disclaimers; it won't show 
on my screen like it does on yours, it won't print true 
on my color printer (well, of course I'm going to print 
it!), the width of the glass will change the color....

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:51:30 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Cleaning CF chillers

Nathan Kanous asked how we clean our cf chillers.
I clean mine by flushing with hot tap water after use then siphoning 5-10
gallons of TSP solution (1Tbs TSP/gal.) through it and letting it set a while
(20 min?) with the TSP solution in it then flushing again with hot tap water.
After that I siphon about 5 gallons of iodophor solution through it and store
it with the sanitizer in it.  Before the next use I run 5 gallons of iodophor
through it again.  This all sounds like a lot of trouble but I usually need
to transfer those solutions from one container to another while cleaning up
anyway so I just do it through the cf chiller.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - john.wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:01:41 -0500
From: "John Griswold" <griswold at ma.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Springfield MA

>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:50:03 -0500
>From: Dan & Laurie <djp at icubed.com>
>Subject: Brew Pubs
>
>I am traveling to Springfield MA for a week.  Can anyone recommend a
>good Brew Pub. Also as I am driving  and can bring brew home  I'd
>appreciate suggestions on local micro brews to sample for possible case
>purchase.
>
>Thanks,
>Dan

>From the Ale St. News:
Pioneer Valley Brewpub, 51 Taylor St. Spfld (413) 732-BREW

Can't vouch for it - surprisingly, I've not been there.  There's the
Northampton Brewery about 30-45 minutes north on I-91 - 11 Brewster Ct.
(413) 584-9903.  I've not been there in a few years.

Cheers!





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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:52:21 EST
From: Antne56 at aol.com
Subject: Beer Trays

Hi all, I have a question about, and need some info on Breweriana,
Specifically Beer trays. I have some Ortlieb's trays from the Henry F. Ortlieb
Brewing Co. Philadelphia, Pa. that I guess to be from the late fifties or
possibly early sixties. Where can I find a good source of determining the
value of these trays and also the trade and purchase of Beer related beer
items? 
							Thanks, Tony 


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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:20:56 -0500
From: Steve <steves at ro.com>
Subject: St. Pats email address

Ken Houtz is having a problem (HBD #2924) sending email to St. Pats using
stpats at wixer.bga.com. I, too, have bounced email off that address. If I use
the address found on her website (stpats at bga.com) my messages reach Lynne.
But her replies come from stpats at wixer.bga.com. This technology stuff gives
me gas.

Steve Stripling
Huntsville, AL
Not far enough south of Jeff to be warm.




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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:51:14 -0800
From: "rrscott" <rrscott at jps.net>
Subject: All Grain Stout Recipe

Havn't seen many recipes lately, so here's an easy one.  After a month in
the keg, this 5 gal (US) batch has turned out very nice:

8.0 lb domestic 2 row pale (yes, British would have been better, but that's
what I had on hand...)
0.5 lb roast barley
0.5 lb chocolate malt
1.0 lb cara-pils dextrine
1.0 lb flaked oats
2.0 oz Kent-Goldings 5.6 pellets
Wyeast Scottish ale yeast (1 pint starter)

Boiled oats for 30 minutes.  Mashed at 153 for 60 minutes with 1 teaspoon
Burton salts (my water is soft).  Boiled 60 minutes with hops entire time.
Immersion cooled to 70, pitched and fermented at 70 for 7 days.  Kegged and
force carbonated at 70 for 7 additional days and then chilled.  Took 3-4
weeks for the astringency to mellow out.  Tastes better than a brew pub
stout I tried in San Diego last week, IMHO!

Bob



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:41:08 -0500
From: "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us>
Subject: yet another fruitflythread

		In HBD 2925 Dave Russell writes:

		"Not to continue to belabor this fruit fly post, but I
have some questions.  The last two batches i have made, I have
experienced an extra ordinary amount of fruit fly (or shall I propose
Wort Fly) in the house.  The first batch, we had salad with homemade
wine vinegar, in the fall.  Later that night during the brew session, I
was doing what I could to eliminate them.  The next brew session, I
experienced them hanging around my yeast starter.
		Any wonderful suggestions on eliminating those pesky
Wort Flies, any nifty traps?  They do make brewing bothersome."

It has been suggested to me that the naturalistic method of introducing
spiders into the brewery, (or in some cases simply allowing them to
remain), is a good method of eliminating most of the fruit fly threat.
The presence of multiple webs would theoretically provide a naturally
unfriendly environment for the little buggers, and at the same time
provide the spiders with sustinence.

I may be stirring the pot, so to speak, but are there any entomologists
out there that can confirm this concept? Are there any preferred
species?


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:20:34 -0600
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Alt taste profile

> Taste profile of Alt (Dan Cole)
>
> I have just sampled my attempt at AlK's Alt recipe (pasted below) and not
> having ever tasted an Altbier, I am concerned about the flavor profile that
> I am getting.
>
> The flavor:
> upfront: malty/little sweet from the all munich grain bill
> middle: fruity (from the Wyeast 1338 yeast?)
> back: bitter (40+ IBU's)
>
> Tha fruitiness surprises me quite a bit, but I've never used 1338 before
> and understand that it is quite fruity normally.
>
> Is this fruity flavor a true characteristic of the style, or should I have
> chosen another yeast or done something different in my processes?
>
I have brewed nearly the same recipe twice now with stellar results.
The fruitiness you're getting is a little puzzling since your
fermentation temp is fairly low (63F).  That said, I like to hold the
temp at 58-60 during the primary ferment.  1338 gives me a nice clean
malty taste profile at these temps.  You might try lagering for a few
weeks at near 32 degrees.  This seems to make the beer even
cleaner-tasting to me.  I also pitch a big starter (2L equivalent for
6.5 gal.).

My two alts didn't seem sweet to me.  I decoction mash with a long sach
rest at 148 degrees to make a very fermentable wort with little residual
sweetness.

As for the bitterness, I use Perle for the bittering addition (45+
IBU's) and Tettnanger for  a first wort addition.  I really believe that
first wort hopping makes for a more mellow bitterness that seems to
balance the maltiness and leads to pleasant firmly bitter finish. Others
will disagree with FWH for this style but all I can say is that it works
well for me.

Hope this helps!

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:28:56 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Scottish Ale or Scotch Ale

I agree.  But don't the Scots call their namesake distilled beverage
"Scotch"  and is there not an Ale from Scotland called "Scotch Ale".

>Both "Scottish" and "Scotch" are English mispronunciations (and therefore
>misspellings) of the word which is properly spelled " Scot's " when you
>mean
>one Scot and " Scots' " when you mean more than one.



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:46:03 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Fruit fly elimination

During the great fruit fly debate I did a lot of web research on the little
bugs.  The Drosphilia Malanogaster, or as the Aussies call it, the red eyed
vinegar fly, is attracted to fermenting fruit.  This is as opposed to the
true fruit fly which is attracted to fresh fruit.  Their larvae feed on the
alcohol, sugars and the yeasts in the  fermenting fruit. Because of this
attraction they tend to carry acetobacter and other bacteria found in
rotting fruit.   The primary suggestion for elimination of these bugs is
finding the source of the local infestation.  A bit of wort on the floor, in
a trash can or in another hidden place would be a start.  If you are brewing
outside, this might be tough.  Indoors it is a bit easier to eliminate
them.  Try searching for Drosphilia connected to brewing.  Since the fly is
the subject of a massive international genome project you might want to
eliminate the word gene from the search.



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999  9:38 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Reichelbrau Eisbock and that strong Swiss beer

     Hi all,
     
     Brian asks about the fate of Samiclaus and Reichelbrau Eisbock.
     
     Samiclaus is no more, as has recently been discussed here.  
     Reichelbrau Eisbock is also gone (for a while, now).  Reichelbrau 
     and EKU merged and the resulting management collective decided 
     that they would only market EKU 28. I am still quite sad about 
     this (although I don't wake up crying anymore).  The Eisbock was, 
     in my opinion, a more interesting beer than EKU 28 (although I 
     like that, too).  Perhaps the decision will be reversed in the 
     future.
     
     Of note:  the "24%" on the Eisbock label refers to the beer's 
     effective original gravity of 24 deg. Plato.  It does not mean 
     24% ABV.  Boy, that would be a trick!
     
     The importer of the Eisbock (B. United, Elmsford, NY) stuck 
     little "vintage" stickers on their remaining stock and they 
     occasionally turn up at NY metro area shops.  They're getting 
     pretty old... 
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:46:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Decoction & Dextrins

George De Piro writes:
>If you want to make a dextrinous wort skip the rests below about 
>155F (68C).  If you want to decoction mash and make a dextrinous 
>wort, you could try resting the main mash at about 155F, pull the 
>decoction after 10-20 minutes, bring it to a boil, then return it 
>to the main mash to hit mash out (~165F, 74C) and rest until the 
>mash is iodine negative.

Another method you could try is a mini mash/decoction. I have been using
this technique on my last half dozen batches (a barley wine included).
Typically, I will put 1/3 of the grains in a 4 gallon pot (usually 8-9
pounds w/2 gallons water) and mash on my stove top in the 150's for 30 mins
and then boil for 30+ mins. While this is boiling, I get the rest of the
grain crushed and the water heated and mash in to hit the low 140's. The
mini-mash/decoction is then added to the mash to boost it into the 150's.
You can vary the time of the rest in the 140's to suit the sugar make up
desired.

I find this to be a very clean (unmessy) way to accomplish a single step
decoction. I have only used this with recipes that contain a high percentage
of high enzyme malt (2-row/6-row), because I know there will be plenty of
enzymes to convert the mash since 1/3 will be denatured in the
mini-mash/decoction. I know that in a standard decoction, most of the
enzymes are left behind in the liquid portion of the mash, and therefore not
destroyed by boiling.


Later,

John
- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:47:28 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Mash Question

In a recent HBD posting (I don't have the copy so I can't reference the
poster) there was an URL for a paper on brewing Weizens,
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/english/homebrew.htm   by Hubert Hanghofer.  I
printed this out but don't have  Hubert's email address to ask him a
question generated by one of his statements:  "At 40-60oC protein degrading
takes place, at 60-65oC fermentable sugars are produced and finally, at
70-76oC, non-fermentable sugars, that are necessary for a full-bodied final
beer, are formed."   I recognize that mashing at higher temperatures, 158oF
(70oC) will result in more dextrins, fuller body, but mashing at this
temperature after saccarification at the lower temperatures would seem to be
closing the barn door after the proverbial horses have departed.  Also,
mashing all the way up to 76oC (169oF) would also seem illogical since
enzyme degradation is presumed to take place in the 165oF-168oF range.   I'm
curious as to the wisdom of the group in this mash regime.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:03:37 -0500
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: re: Taste profile of Alt

Dan is concerned with ester produced by Wyeast #1338 in his Altbier.

I used AlK's grain bill and Wyeast 1338 as well.  My variants from
Dan's recipe are:
Perle hops to 60 IBU
1/2 gal starter for 10 gallon batch
Primary ferment  at  60F

I didn't perceive any fruitiness from my batch - all that Munich
malt and the higher hop rate may have masked any esters thrown by
the yeast - but my tasting notes from a prior batch using Wyeast
1007, similar grain bill and hopping rate stressed a clean, crisp
character that seemed to be lacking in the 1338 batch.  

I'd suspect that pitching the XL pack into only 2.5 gals may still
be underpitching a bit, especially if you're not
aerating/oxygenating (no mention of aerating was made in your post).
As always, YMMV.

Dave Kerr - awaiting (and welcoming) the deluge of sophomoric posts
regarding krausen balls in Needham, MA


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:26:13 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Fruit Fly elimination

"Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com> wrote:

>Any wonderful suggestions on eliminating those pesky Wort Flies, any
>nifty traps?  They do make brewing bothersome.

We also had a late season population explosion of fruit flies here 40 miles
west of Dave, probably caused by unseasonably warm weather (it's snowing
yet again here today!) and the proximity of my composter, which I didn't
turn as often as I should.  I noticed that they were attracted to a glass
of cheap cream sherry, so I poured three glasses of it and put it in
different places in the house (including near my covered "open" fermenter).
Within a day, I had a dozen or more in each, some floating on top, so I
added a drop of dish detergent to each glass and a little sterilizing
vodka.  This attracted still more and caused them to sink.  At the end of
three days, there were no more flying in the house and I'd guess there were
more than 50 in the bottom of each glass.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:27:48 -0700
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Re: Sports drinks and return policies

Years ago, when I was still coaching, I took a class at the University
of Northern Colorado called "Nutrition for Athletes."  The use of beer
as a sports drink was a topic.  Here is the gist of what was said:

1.  If it weren't for the alcohol, beer would be an excellent
precompetition beverage.  (The dehydrating qualitites of alcohol negate
the positive nutritional benefits.)
2.  Plain water is best just before and during a competition.  It is
superior to sports drinks.  (The study that determined this was paid
for, much to their chagrin, by a very famous sports drink company.)
Although your sweat contains lost electrolytes, you have lost, in
balance, more water than electrolytes.  It is vital to replace the water
immediately to restore the balance.
3.  After competition is the time to replace the electrolytes, etc.  As
long as a significant amount of water is also consumed, beer should be
wonderful at this point.  Which beer?  I recommend looking at your stock
and picking the one that strikes your fancy at the moment.

Again, this was yers ago.  Perhaps more recent research has changed some
of the above.
- -----------------
Mike Megown related a story about St. Pat's refusing to accept the
return of damaged or defective merchandise they supposedly sent.  That's
hard to believe, because (although I am not a lawyer) I am under the
firm belief that the law requires a mail order company to accept returns
of damaged or defective material.  The only reason that I can see that
they would not so so would be if they advertised that they were selling
damaged or defective material on an "as is" basis.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:32:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Trommer's

Son of a son of a beer geek "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>  asks what
happened to Trommer's Brewery.  It isn't mentioned in the 1978 Great
American Beer book, so I can't help you.  But, "The Bushwick Pilsners:  A
Look at Hoppier Days " by Ben Jankowski  in BrewingTechniques'
January/February 1994,
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html has
some information about them from the 50's:

"Trommer's also produced over 1 million bbl, though a significant portion
of it was produced at its Orange, New Jersey, brewery."

"With the exception of Trommer's, all of the beers produced by Bushwick
breweries used adjuncts.  There is currently a feeling among home, pub, and
microbrewers that the use of adjuncts borders on sacrilege. A judicious use
of corn or rice in beer, however, will dry the palate and bring out hop
flavor (3), precisely the qualities that New Yorkers desired in their beer."

"The barley that was used by all of these breweries was six-row. Trommer's
imported Banza malt from Canada (5). Others used the standard six-row malt
of the period, which was derived from the Wisconsin #38 strain. These
included Oderbrucker, Kindred, and Manchuria varieties."

"Except for Trommer's, which imported Czech and German hops, most of the
hops used in Bushwick were from the Yakima Valley in Washington and from
the Russian River and Sacramento areas in California (7)"

Trommer's White Label (1949)12P, SG 1.049, FG1.012, 28 IBU Cluster and Saaz.

No wonder Dave says:

>The regular lager first truly malty
>domestic lager I can remember drinking.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:10:25 -0600
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: St. Pat's

I would like to see St. Pat's side of this story, but if it is true, that's
pretty sad for both customers and St. Pat's alike.  I have never purchased
from them, but I have purchased a variety of things via mail order/ internet
and a few simple safety rules apply.  

1) pay by credit card, that way if you never get the goods or they are not
acceptable, you can cancel the charge.  This will prompt the vendor into
making an acceptable reconciliation with you, the customer.
2) If it is a large purchase, say over $1000, you may want to contact the
better business bureau in the area and see if there are any complaints filed
against the company.  It may give you a clue if the company is about to
belly up and take your money and dissapear.
3) before making a purchase, call to make sure they are resonsive to
reasonable questions and are in fact reachable.  This would be more
important in the case of a large purchase such as a brewing system where you
may need some form of 'tech support'.  

I am sure some of you can suggest a few other things to check up on, but in
summary, I think you just have to be able to develop some kind of trusting
relatiionship with the vendor.

Rich Sieben
Sier1 at aerial1.com

> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:31:19 -0500
> From: mike megown <magobrew at erols.com>
> Subject: St. Pats
> 
> George Marshall posted a forwarded email complaint about St Pat in Texas
> 
> yesterday.  I think this complaint is an out of line slam of an
> established and reputable business (many happy customers have posted to
> HBD).
>   I'm sorry I have to disagree with this statement.  I also have order
> ONCE and only ONCE from St. Pats.  I did a bulk buy of kegs 16 to be
> exact.  When they arrived to my house they looked like they had been
> pulled from a mud pit, well that's ok with me.  They were supposed to be
> pressurized, well again most were.  But I found 2 that had holes in the
> sides of them, and 1 of the holes had a black marker circle around it
> and writing that said "NO GOOD"!!!!!But they shipped to me any how, the
> other one might have gotten the hole in shipping don't know.  Well I
> called St. Pats to tell them about the 2 bad kegs and to hopefully have
> them send 2 more, the reply I got was SORRY NOTHING WE CAN
> DO!!!!!......now what type of business is this, I pay $16 a keg plus the
> shipping from Texas to VA then 2 are broken and I get a
> sorry...........  So for all you people that are happy with St. Pats
> that fine, me I'll never deal with them again, for that is not a
> business they are running at all, and George Marshall whas dead on fro
> the post he put up, xmas or not we are the customers and don't deserve
> to be treated like that.  I run a customer based program and the
> customer is ALWAYS right!!!!!!
> 
> Mike Megown
> Fredericksburg, Va.......are you guys happy I posted my name!!!!!!!
> 


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:23:27 -0600
From: "Trent Neutgens" <tneutgen at isd.net>
Subject: St.Pats Debate, a word from the original customer

OK, I'll throw in my two cents here since I am the one from the email that
was originally posted.  These were my experiences with St. Pats and my
original email to St. PAts that started the whole debacle.   I think part of
the fact that is lost here is that St. Pats did NOT do everything they could
for me.  I called the week before Xmas and was told that my package was
shipped that Monday when in fact it was NOT.  That is a lie, that is
disreputable, and not a fair business practice.  Another point is the fact
that any replies to email from Lynne or St. Pats always bounces.  In order
to send them email you have to go back to the Web Site and get their correct
address for sending mail, I'm not sure if this is just a configuration error
on their email system or an appempt to reduce the amount of customer
questions she needs to handle.  I mean, after all we are just customers, who
are we to be wasting their time.  Finally on St. Pats, I too purchased 16
cornie cans from them in the past, one of these was shipped without pressure
on it, on the side of the keg written in large letters in black magic marker
was the word "HOLE" with an arror pointing downward.  They still shipped
this keg to me once they knew it had a leak, another great business
practice.  Fortunately for me, they credited my Credit card for the amount
of one keg, although they wouldn't ship me a replacement like I first
wanted.  It sounds like others were not even this lucky.

I have really been shocked by the responses I've seen from other retailers
and shop owners.  Lynne is not a hero, if you want to stay in business I
would not be trying to be more like Lynne and her company.  Jack, I was very
disappointed in your reply, you mentioned yourself that you have heard many
complaints about St. Pats but yet you wanna treat customers just like her.
Fortunately you have the best mill out there and I am happy to own one.  I
understand what it must be like to do business around the holidays, dealing
with customers that want your product, taking in all those checks, counting
your money, must be tough.  No one forced you in to this line of work, no
one is forcing you to stay there either.  I've worked in retail a large part
of my life, yours is no different than anyone else around this time, and
this is what most business stick it out the rest of the year for!!

I guess the whole (HOLE) story was never really out in the open on this one.
Maybe this will help, maybe it won't.  Either way I guess we are all better
off now.  I don't need to wait a month for my product without any knowledge
of why, I don't need to make 3 long distance calls on my dime just to get a
straight answer, I don't need to deal with bounced email, no replies, or
replies like the one I received.  I have many choices and I don't have to
choose to be treated that way by St. Pats or any other retailer.

Thank you,
Trent Neutgens
tneutgen at isd.net





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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:35:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Brandon Brown <brandonbrown at yahoo.com>
Subject: St. Pat's Summary

In reference to several posts about St. Pat's Brewing Supply in Texas,
I would have to say that I do know the original poster of this
complaint. We speak on a brewing chat line daily that allows us to
expand our knowledge of brewing fundamentals, techniques, grains and
all sorts of issues. This person was appalled at the service he had
received from this organization, and another member of the chat
decided to take it one step further.  I am a relatively new
homebrewer. This hobby has taken me in hook, line, sinker, rod and
boat. I am always looking around for different brewing tools, supplies
and other items as such.

I had the opportunity to read several dissenting opinions and one
other "nightmare" experience with this company. The Internet in and of
itself is, in essence, a "Better Business Bureau" for the 90's. It is
a place to log compliments (in the form of links to other sites),
specific dialog about any topic (chat lines), and of course, the
inevitable complaints.

I also had the opportunity to visit  St. Pat's site. They have a ton
of different components and equipment that I think I can use as I
build my home monastery; I mean brewery. I may decide to use them,
EVEN THOUGH I'VE READ BAD THINGS ABOUT THEM. 

My advice to everyone and especially my friends on the Brew Chat is
Caveat emptor, or let the buyer beware, especially of this company.
Order everything by credit card, not just at St. Pat's, but at every
company you purchase things from. If you get less than you expect, or
as in the two situations listed earlier in the discussion, then
contact the company. 

If you get a response such as these two unfortunate gentlemen have,
then contact your credit card company and have them contest the
charge, especially if you receive defective equipment. I say make the
company issue you a UPS pickup tag and you're out of it. A reputable
company will take the time to make it right; after all, all that is at
stake is their reputation, and after awhile it will matter, even to
those companies with a smug, indolent attitude.

Just my $0.02,

Brandon Brown
(brando)




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:55:08 -0500
From: "Randy A. Shreve" <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: Motor Oil Beer - Any Hope???

Thanks to those who recently responded to my plea for help about the
weird gravities I got attempting to make my first Barleywine.  As I
mentioned in my other post, the terminal gravity of this brew (reason
still unknown) was 1040 (with an OG of 1080).

I just tasted the first bottle (two weeks after bottling) over the
weekend.  Talk about mouthfeel!  The carbonation was very good, but
right now the beer is better suited for pancake syrup, and is obviously
over sweet and cloying (now I really know what that means....).

Is there any hope that this stuff will become better with a little more
bottle aging or is it destined for the <sniff> sink?

Thanks!
Randy in Salisbury, NC


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:22:07 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: Indianapolis SS 52 gallon drum interest?

Please excuse the locality of my topic.

If you live in the Indy area and have interest in
buying 52 gal SS drums, send me an email.
I'm looking for others to go in with me to order
some of these from Cali.  If I can get 4 drums,
the shipping drops.  Oh, single cost each at

http://www.rcbequip.com/prod2.htm

is about $145 with shipping.

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.




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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:55:04 -0800
From: tbevans at internet.omm.com
Subject: Sanitizing Wort Chiller

I recently purchased a wort chiller (immersion style).  I understand that one
method of sanitizing the chiller is to simply put it into the kettle for the
last 15 mins of the boil.  Is there any reason why I can't simply immerse the
chiller in my large bucket full of Iodophor solution for 30 mins or so prior to
using it?  This seems simpler to me.

Thanks in advance.

Tim Evans
tbevans at omm.com



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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:31:47 EST
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: hydrogen beer

Hi all.  A friend forwarded this story to me in an email.  Is there really
such a thing as hydrogen beer?  

>> TOKYO (AP) The recent craze for hydrogen beer is at the heart  
>> of a three way lawsuit between unemployed stockbroker Toshira 
>> Otoma, the Tike-Take karaoke bar and the Asaka Beer Corporation. 
>> Mr Otoma is suing the bar and the brewery for selling toxic substances  
>> and is claiming damages for grievous bodily harm leading to the loss  
>> of his job. The bar is countersuing for defamation and loss of  
>> customers. 
>>       
>> The Asaka Beer corporation brews "Suiso" brand beer, where the carbon  
>> dioxide normally used to add fizz has been replaced by the more  
>> environmentally friendly hydrogen gas. A side effect of this has made  
>> the beer extremely popular at karaoke sing-along bars and  
>> discotheques. 
>>       
>> Hydrogen, like helium, is a gas lighter than air. Because hydrogen  
>> molecules are lighter than air, sound waves are transmitted more  
>> rapidly; individuals whose lungs are filled with the nontoxic gas can  
>> speak with an uncharacteristically high voice. Exploiting this quirk  
>> of physics, chic urbanites can now sing soprano parts on karaoke  
>> sing-along machines after consuming a big gulp of Suiso beer. 
>>       
>> The flammable nature of hydrogen has also become another selling  
>> point, even though Asaka has not acknowledged that this was a  
>> deliberate marketing ploy. 
>>       
>> It has inspired a new fashion of blowing flames from one's mouth using  
>> a cigarette as an ignition source. Many new karaoke videos feature  
>> singers shooting blue flames in slow motion, while flame contests take  
>> place in pubs everywhere. "Mr Otoma has no-one to blame but himself.  
>> If he had not become drunk and disorderly, none of this would have  
>> happened.  Our security guards undergo the most careful screening and  
>> training before they are allowed to deal with customers" said Mr  
>> Takashi Nomura, Manager of the Tike-Take bar. 
>>       
>> "Mr Otoma drank fifteen bottles of hydrogen beer in order to maximise  
>> the size of the flames he could belch during the contest. He  
>> catapulted balls of fire across the room that Gojira would be proud  
>> of, but this was not enough to win him first prize since the judgement  
>> is made on the quality of the flames and that of the singing, and  
>> after fifteen bottles of lager he was badly out of tune." 
>>       
>> "He took exception to the result and hurled blue fireballs at the  
>> judge, singeing the front of Mrs Mifune's hair, entirely removing her  
>> eyebrows and lashes, and ruining the clothes of two nearby customers.  
>> None of these people have returned to my bar. When our security staff  
>> approached he turned his attentions to them, making it almost  
>> impossible to approach him. Our head bouncer had no choice but to hurl  
>> himself at Mr Otoma's knees, knocking his legs from under him." 
>>       
>> "The laws of physics are not to be disobeyed, and the force that  
>> propelled Mr Otoma's legs backwards also pivoted around his centre of  
>> gravity and moved his upper body forward with equal velocity. It was  
>> his own fault he had his mouth open for the next belch, his own fault  
>> he held a lighted cigarette in front of it and it is own fault he  
>> swallowed that cigarette." 
>>       
>> "The Tike-Take bar takes no responsibility for the subsequent internal  
>> combustion, rupture of his stomach lining, nor the third degree burns  
>> to his oesophagus, larynx and sinuses as the exploding gases forced  
>> their way out of his body. His consequential muteness and loss of  
>> employment are his own fault." 
>> 

Sorry for the length, but I thought it was a funny story even if that's all it
is.

Bill Wright
Juneau, AK


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:23:52 -0600
From: don oconnor <oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: St. Pat's Response 

Since I use netscape mail I sent this thru my husband.

Please note that St. Pat's email address is now
	stpats at bga.com   
the old address with 'wixer' started bouncing last month. 

 Also, our new shop (10,000 square ft including warehouse) opened last
month and we have new phone numbers.  you can get all that at
http://www.stpats.com 

We'll have our grand opening for the new shop on Saturday, May 22.  Michael
Jackson will conduct a beer tasting and christen the shop.  There will be
beer (did I mention free) from several Texas breweries and brewpubs all day
as well.  I'll put more details up on the web site next month and everyone
is welcome.  

Thanks to all the people who responded to the post regarding St. Pat's. An
additional thanks to all the people who DIDN'T respond. 

First, my apologies to Mike Megown whom we treated very badly.  To review,
in February 1998, Mike ordered 16 kegs and got 2 that had holes which were
circled and the words "no good" written on the kegs.  When he called St.
Pat's he was essentially told 'tough luck'.  We occasionally make honest
mistakes at St. Pat's but this mistake is so egregious that I cannot recall
ever having been disgusted.  First off, the kegs were taken from the "No
Good" keg pile.  The reason the holes were circled is to prevent rechecking
a keg that obviously is trash (the lid would have been removed also to
further distinguish the trash keg pile). Second, obviously the keg was not
pressure checked prior to shipping which is also required.  Third, St.
Pat's policy is that I am to be briefed on all problems even if the
employee has resolved it(or thinks he has).  And fourth, our database
should contain a summary of the problem under the Mike Megown entry.  If
any of the four procedures were followed this would have been resolved
quickly.  I have emailed Mike Megown and hope he will accept my apology.

I don't want to discuss St. Pat's internal issues but suffice it to say
that I have the best group of employees at present that I have ever had,
and that I never had so many people work for such short periods as I did in
the first part of 1998.

I've been reading the digest since 1990 and I think it is better today than
ever. I don't read every post but I check the titles daily and have gleaned
a good deal of information that has made its way into our catalog over the
years.  I've been working on the new catalog (Swimsuit Issue, which will be
out around Feb 1) and have a couple of questions regarding airstones.

Why don't people use inexpensive aquarium airstones which are so cheap as
to be almost disposable rather than expensive S/S stones?  I know the pore
size is 40 micron or larger for the cheap stones compared to 2 micron but,
air is cheap.  also, some of the cheap stones are ceramic so cleaning would
seem to be no big deal.  Finally, can someone direct me to a primary source
(manufacturer or primary distributor) for the S/S stones?  If it pans out
I'll give a $50 gift certificate. 

Finally, I've had quite a run on the blue 15 gallon drums in the last week
and indeed am out of stock.  These are food grade tight head plastic drums
which we had Briess package extract in for us and we drain a few each week.
 Several years ago I bought these in quanity from the manufacturer at $7
each so in that sense they are a good deal.  However, freight cost to
anywhere is more than the price and I make no attempt to clean them out.
We also have some 55 gallon food grade steel drums for $3 but I can't ship
them--local only.

Again, thanks to everyone for their thoughtful posts, and my sincere
apologies to Mike Megown.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
stpats at bga.com        
http://www.stpats.com
512-989-9727 new phone
512-989-8982 new fax


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---