HOMEBREW Digest #2934 Fri 22 January 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Subject: Coffee Stout and barley wine yeasts (Gillespie)
  barley wine yeast, not food grade plastic (Ken Pendergrass)
  oh no! an aeration question (John Herman)
  Re:Sanitizing Bottles ("Colin K.")
  Re: *delicate* balance (Scott Murman)
  Cutting out Keg Tops (Clint Thessen)
  bottle caps & chiller (Jason.Gorman)
  Re: (MaltHound)
  re:Hot break filtering, runout and a need for speed (David Kerr)
  whisky yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Source for Solenoid Valves ("H. Dowda")
  Re:  Diacetyl Rest info needed (John Murphy)
  Yeast purity ("Steve Blanchard")
  Nitrous oxide (John Baxter Biggins)
  No Fruit Flies here (Paul Niebergall)
  1968 (John Adsit)
  Re: blue corn meal as an adjunct (Jeff Renner)
  Re: whiskey or whisky (Jeff Renner)
  Re:Sanitizing Bottles & Aluminum Foil (Matthew Comstock)
  Re:nitrogen bubbles (Tidmarsh Major)
  re: nitrous oxide (Lou.Heavner)
  Brew Stands/Nitrous Oxide/Lighter Side/Cancelling posts ("David C. Harsh")
  Sanitizing Bottles and Aluminum ("Franklin.Tom")
  Dry Rice Extract (Darren Cousineau)
  Millenial Barley Wine / Plastic Fermenters ("Siegi Chavez Jr.")
  Re:Nitrous Oxide (Matthew Comstock)
  Stainless steel screen (Doug Moyer)
  Kansas City Bier Meisters RHC Feb 19th/20th ("John Weerts")
  Millennium Barley Wine ("Alan McKay")
  RE: Aluminum Foil ("Alan McKay")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:40:02 -0500 From: Gillespie <dlgilles at net-link.net> Subject: Subject: Coffee Stout and barley wine yeasts Sean, I've made one coffee stout, and sampled several batches made by a close friend. All were made with 1/4 to 1/2 cup of ground coffee beans added 10 or 15 minutes prior to the end of the boil. Then strained out while pouring into the fermentor. They all tasted good, but 1/2 cup makes for a VERY coffee stout. My next batch will have 1/4 to 3/8 cup in it. I'm afraid to admit it, but I just made a porter with 3/4 cup of Tasters Choice instant coffee in it. I boiled it in 1 pint of water and added it to the secondary. It honestly tastes great. Just enough coffee flavor to taste, but it's weak enough to make you wonder if it's coffee or some other roast flavor. I've had more compliments on it than most beers I've made. As for the barleywine. I just transfered a new barleywine to the secondary, and pitched champagne yeast to it. It was fermented for a week with Wyeast #1056 American Ale yeast, just barely starting to settle, that way there was still plenty of available sugars for the champagne yeast to get a good quick start. I've sampled friends barelywines made with the same yeast combination, and they're better than any barleywine I've bought. I would recommend it. Good luck with both batches. Don G. in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:30:53 -0500 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net> Subject: barley wine yeast, not food grade plastic Sam in San Diego asks about champagne yeast for barley wine. I've just been reading about this in "Designing great Beers", Ray Daniels(which is a great book). He uses commercial records and'93/'94 NHC second round entries to construct profiles for several styles of beer. The following are some thoughts from him. There is no record of anything but ale yeast in historical records. Today some micros and homebrewers do use champagne or wine yeast in the US. NHC entries used a wide varity of yeasts but no champagne, 3 entries used American ale, the only duplicate. In some research he quotes 15 ale yeasts attained higher attentuation than the 5 champagnes tested. He suggests maximize aereation and repitch the yeast from a prior batch. For my N2K barley wine I intend to use Yeast Culture Kit A8 English Barleywine to brew a brown ale and rack my barleywine wort onto the yeast from that brew. Regards, Ken Pendergrass Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:58:32 -0500 From: John Herman <johnvic at earthlink.net> Subject: oh no! an aeration question When I got my aeration system I bought a air pump setup. Penny wise and pund foolish. Needless to say it takes quite a long time. The instructions say that I should aerate for 1 hour before pitching, and one hour after pitching. The problem is, when I transfer from my brew pot, after cooling of course, I strain the wort to aif in trub elimination and filter out hop residue. This produces a lot of foam. Now I start to aerate and I quickly get a huge amount of foaming. It is impossible to even come close to aerateing for 1 hour. What do I do? I tried not straining ( I do whirlpool to syphon awaay from the trub ), but it still gets quite foamy. Should I foam away and just have a big mess, but a well aerated wort? Thanks, John Herman Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:35:17 -0800 From: "Colin K." <colink at wenet.net> Subject: Re:Sanitizing Bottles Well, I was hoping someone would help me with my hope to achieve very low final gravities in my IPA but I had no takers. Maybe if a share something someone will help me. This is how I have been sanitizing bottles for the last 6 batches. It was given to me by a home brewer who's day job is as a enologist for Stags Leap Winery. I rinse my clean bottles making sure to leave about 1/2 oz or so of water in them. I then stack them on their sides in my oven and heat them to 170 deg for 20 min. According to her: wet heat kills, but some spores can survive dry heat. I then shut off the oven. If I remember to do this a few hours before I need to bottle I just let them cool in the oven. Otherwise I open the door and let the hot air out. Then I close the door and wait 20 minutes or so. And repeat until the temp is down to about 115 deg then you can open the door completely. If you cool the bottles to quickly they can crack. I like to start to bottle when the bottles are about 10 to 15 degrees warmer than the beer. Pour out the residual water and bottle as you normally do. I find the beer releases a little CO2 when it hits the hot glass and makes it easier to cap on foam. I have not had an infection yet but I still consider the process experimental. I find it much easier than any other sanitizing I have tried. Cheers, Colin K. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:07:53 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: *delicate* balance Mark Bayer had a number of good points/questions > question: what does mashing at 155-160 deg f contribute, other than more > sweetness? are "malty" and "sweet" necessarily linked? Malty and sweet are not the same thing. When working with a high sacc. temperature, effectively you're allowing a higher percentage of starches to remain as dextrins. These are pre-cursors to sugars. Malt flavor compounds (Maillard's) are created from sugar and amino acids and high temperatures - a separate phenomenon. The necessary entity here is the nitrogen from the amino acids. Malt flavor is created in the malt house, or from decoction/pressure cooking, but not from mashing. If it isn't in the grain, and you don't do anything funky, then you aren't gonna get many malty flavors. Mashing at a high sacc. temperature isn't going to magically create melanoidins that weren't there originally. A high sacc. temp. also shouldn't contribute much sweetness, per se. Any sugar in the wort will be consumed by the yeast, unless something is very wrong. A high temp. mash will lead to more "body", and more foamstand, and less alcohol, and definately a different flavor, but I don't think it would necessarily be a sweeter flavor profile. -SM- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:45:51 -0600 From: Clint Thessen <cthessen at mdc.com> Subject: Cutting out Keg Tops Hi folks, Harold Dowda asks about the easiest way to cut out the tops of his kegs. For me, I cut the tops out of my kegs using a rotary tool (Dremel) and the fiber reinforced discs. The job lasted about 30 min and 2 discs per keg. Eye and ear protection required. Mark your cutout circle, have a seat and start grinding. Then switch to the sanding drum to deburr. Harold, the next step is to buy a bimetal hole cutter for your drill and install a bulkhead fitting. I bought brass 1/2" SWAGELOC fittings for $6/pc and 1/2" brass ball-lock valves with stainless ball for $8/pc (the kind used for natural gas lines). Brass is fine to use... just remember to use Palmer's recipe for de-leading brass. On the inside of your keg you can install a manifold, false bottom or a piece of copper tube with some stainless screen attached. I hope this info helps, any extraneous info should be happily ignored. Prost! Clint Thessen Railyard Brewing O'Fallon, MO (about 550 mi SSW of Jeff Renner) Return to table of contents
Date: 21 Jan 1999 08:37:00 -0500 From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com Subject: bottle caps & chiller My attempt to find flip top 7-8 oz. bottles has come up short. I am going to attempt to recap a screw top 7 oz. Bud bottle. I understand that the caps used for this are a little thinner and softer than the standard caps that we use. Does anyone know of a source for these thinner caps? I also have a fermentation chiller of the "Son of a Fermentation Chiller" design found at http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/. If anyone is interested in it contact me to come pick it up or maybe make a trade (bottles, swap brew...). I live in the West Michigan area. Jason Gorman RiVeR dOg BrEwErY GR, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:39:13 EST From: MaltHound at aol.com Subject: Re: In Homebrew Digest #2931 (January 18, 1999), Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> asks: > For a home brew RIMS, why can't you use the HLT for the brew pot. One less > pot, one less burner, less fabrication. In an RIMS where the mash is heated > by a recirc coil in the HLT you could make a complete system with a single > burner. The only real problem that I see is the cleaning measures required. > If the coil were removable that would be minimal. > In fact, it is easy to design a RIMS setup with a single burner. OTOH I find that the point in the brewing process that requires multiple brewing vessels is during the sparge. You need to have someplace for the Hot Liquor to be stored and supplied from at the same time that you need someplace for the wort to run-off to. In my electric RIMS setup I have a 48 qt coolers for HLT, a 40 qt cooler for the mash/lauter tun and a 1/2 barrel keg and propane burner for the kettle. My regular process goes something like this: 1) Fill mashtun with correct quantity of hot strike water and use RIMS to bring it to desired strike temp. At the same time I fill the kettle with the sparge water quantity and begin to heat it to ~180 degrees. This typically takes quite a while at a low burner setting, however, there is no rush at this point. I then go of and mill the grain. One of the key benefits of an electronically controlled RIMS is that I can multitask. 2) Mash-in and conduct RIMS mash. This is kind of independent of any other vessels at this point. When Hot Liquor reaches temperature I transfer it to the HLT (cooler) where it stays at temp for hours with negligible heat loss. 3) Lautering is accomplished by continuing to run the pump, cutting the flow rate down to a minimal trickle and redirecting the output to the kettle. As the run-off collects in the kettle I can begin bringing it to a boil by firing up the burner. This is the only time I allow the pump to touch the wort so I have minimal concerns about the pump's sanitation. This is pretty much the only point where I find it advantageous to have 3 separate vessels, but only one of them need be directly heatable. Hope my sharing my setup and process will give you some ideas that you can incorporate in yours. Cheers, Fred Wills Londonderry, NH Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:43:07 -0500 From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org> Subject: re:Hot break filtering, runout and a need for speed Dave is concerned about slow draining of his boil kettle (through a copper manifold) is reducing the aroma contribution of his finishing hop addition. I've had similar experiences with my EZmasher II installed in a converted keg, especially when using > 1/2 tsp Irish Moss (rehydrated) and > 3 oz whole hops in a 10 gallon batch. I use an immersion chiller, not a CF as Dave does, so my solution is not so elegant - SS choreboy jammed onto the end of a racking cane, then siphon. If impatience in filling your fermenter is not an issue, why not try a hop-back? Look at CD Pritchard's gadgets page for plans - http://hbd.org/cdp/ Dave Kerr - Needham, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:07:53 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: whisky yeast "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>, back from the wilderness, writes: >Jeff Renner adds >>Oddly enough, the distillers are not particularly fussy >>about yeast and typically use dry yeast. >I'm not sure that selecting dry yeast means that distillers are less picky. I was basing my comments in part on the interview with Michael Jackson in Malt Advocate - late Fall issue, p. 38 "I think they [Scottish distillers] massively fail to comprehend the importance of yeast strains. There's really a whole lot that hasn't been explored there." I also remember reading elsewhere that they use dry yeast. Bourbon makers, as I mentioned earlier, are different. Some use dry yeast, some use hopped starters with proprietary yeasts, and some deliberately introduce lactobacillus with proprietary yeast for sour yeast (not the same as sour mash). Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:13:14 -0500 From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at usit.net> Subject: Source for Solenoid Valves Any one have a source for low voltage, liquid (sparge water temps), solenoid valves. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:23:09 -0500 From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu> Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest info needed Sean Murphy (smurphy at sdcoe.k12.ca.us) asks about the timing of a diacetyl rest: >I would like to do a diacetyl rest but am not sure of the exact >time to do the rest. Miller's Homebrewing guide recommends >starting the rest when the wort is 2/3ds of the way through it's >fermentation. This much I understand, but do I conduct the rest >in my primary fermenter and transfer after the rest, or should I >transfer at the end of primary, into secondary and then do the >diacetyl rest inthe secondary? Miller is referring to a Narziss fermentation: "...some German breweries actually raise the temperature of the beer from 48 to 60 (degrees F) when fermentation is about two-thirds finished..." (Fix writes in his Brewing Techniques article that the temp. is allowed to increase to 68 degrees F.) This is done in the initial fermentation, before the beer is racked, to keep the beer in contact with the yeast until diacetyl is reduced. Miller gives a guideline when to do this: "when it (the bubbling of the airlock) is down to once a minute or so, you can reckon that fermentation is over and it is all right to rack. If you want to do a diacetyl rest, now is the time." What I find confusing is when Miller writes under "Professional Procedures" the following: "If necessary, the temperature is lowered to about 35 (degrees F) for a "diacetyl rest" of 2 to 3 days after fermentation is over. In any case, as I suggested a few days ago, Fix's article is a must read on this topic at: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html Cheers John Murphy jbm at ll.mit.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:54:56 PST From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard at hotmail.com> Subject: Yeast purity David Lamotte was wondering what "< 1 cfu/ml" meant concerning bacterial contamination of liquid yeasts. < 1 cfu/ml means there is less than one "colony-forming unit" per ml of solution. If 1 ml of a test solution is cultured on an agar plate, there will be less than 1 colony detected after incubation. In general, 1 bacterial cell would lead to one colony but does not preclude more than 1 cell clumped together which would still grow up as one colony. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:17:47 -0500 From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu> Subject: Nitrous oxide 72723.1707 at compuserve.com wrote: NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways similar to CO2. I would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2. - ------- NO2 is nitric oxide (1 nitrogens, 2 oxygen). N2O is nitrous oxide (whip-it/laughing gas--2 nitrogens, 1 oxygen). BIG DIFFERENCE!. Pass NO2 though your beer & it'll eat though your stomach. If the manufacturer of N2O cartridges doesn't even know what the hell he's selling, then he has no business being in the business. NO2 + 2 H2O ---> HNO3 (nitric acid) + H30 (hydronium ion a.k.a. "acid") - -------------- John B. Biggins Cornell University Medical College 1233 York Ave; Apt 19D Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center New York, NY 10021 Graduate School of Medical Sciences (212)717-0158 Student -- Program in Pharmacology "Science, like Nature, must also be tamed With a view towards its preservation. Given the same state of integrity It will surely serve us well." -- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:19:48 -0600 From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> Subject: No Fruit Flies here Sorry, I don't have the resources on hand and I can't recall exactly how process works, but I do have a couple of things to contribute: Bill writes: >In summary, one should always use starters when using liquid >(Wyeast) east. The popular "smack packs" only contain about 50 mL of >yeast when fresh, which the directions on the pack say should be >stepped up to at least 12 oz of wort prior to pitching. I'd screwed up by >pitching a smack pack to gal (roughly 2000 mL) of wort, or about 4X >as much as I should have. I would not exactly call it a screw up. Using a starter that was created from pitching a swollen smak pak in a gallon of wort is still about 40 times better than pitching the swollen smak pak directly into 5 gallons of wort. Bottom line is that you still used a gallon starter in a five gallon batch of beer. This is completely adequate. The five gallon batch of beer doesn*t know or care that you may have slightly under pitched the gallon starter. It will still contain roughly the same number of yeast cells. Mark wrote: >when I first started all-grain brewing, I used to saccharify as close to >151 deg f as I could. most of the standard, all-malt o.g. beers finished >out around 1.010 or 1.011, and I never noticed the worty flavors (but >maybe I wasn't paying enough attention). rather, I had it in my head that >these beers needed more "flavor", from all contributors. so I decided to >start mashing a little hotter, up around 155 deg f for most beers. now >i'm starting to rethink the >whole thing. I seriously doubt that many people could detect an increased sweetness between two supposedly identical brews; one mashed at 151 degrees F and one mashed 4 degrees higher at 155 degrees F. Theoretically, there should be an increased dextrine content in the higher temp mash, but common inconsistencies in home brew practice such as yeast type, pitching volume, and fermentation temperature would quickly mask these effects. (My apologies to any bloated egos out there with equally bloated opinions of their super sensitive palettes :-) Tom writes about using aluminum foil. I always cover the tops of my sanitized and dried bottles with a small square of aluminum foil. It keeps the dust out. I have gotten to the point where I will not even brew a batch unless I have enough bottles that are ready to go. This has greatly reduced my stress level at bottle time (have you ever had to bottle on quick notice because your have to go out of town and then find out that you didn*t have enough bottles ready?). Anyway, cover them with foil and store in boxes or rubbermaid totes. They will last pretty much indefinitely. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:30:59 -0700 From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> Subject: 1968 > Dave Riedel said, > > PS re: 1968 - I wouldn't be paranoid about trying this yeast, I used it > for a best bitter and it had a wonderful character. I don't oxygenate. > I use a venturi tube and then shake the carboy for 10-15 mins. I agree. I have used 1968 quite a few times, and I have always been happy with the results. Like Dave, all I do is shake the heck out of the carboy for aeration. I have never had a final gravity as high as the 1.019 mentioned in another post. Remember, too, that 1968 is derived from Fullers of London, and is designed for cask conditioned ESB's. I have had the pleasure of hoisting a few cask conditioned Fullers in London, and users trying to emulate this beer should expect more maltiness than you might find in, say, a SNPA. We have to be careful not to commit the "single cause" fallacy when troubleshooting. Like most situations in our lives, the results of brewing beer are dependant upon a variety of causes. Poor attenuation or a sweet taste in the final product can be caused by a number of factors or combinations of factors. You have to be careful about assuming that one and only one factor causes a result. Not that I want to teach a logic class, but another related fallacy is called "post hoc." First we do something, and when something else happens later, we tend to assume that what came first caused what came second. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it's a coincidence. You need to investigate further to see if there's a true relationship between the two. - -- John Adsit Boulder, Colorado jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:38:19 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: blue corn meal as an adjunct >Markus Berndt <Markus.Berndt at Colorado.EDU> asks >I came across a box of blue corn >meal. Has anyone ever used this and, does it have any effect on the color >of the resulting beer? Never have, and I don't think I've heard of anyone using it, either. I hope if you do, you'll report back. > Oh, here is another question. Next to the corn meal I found polenta, >which is coarsly ground corn. Can this be used instead of corn meal or >flaked maize (of course I will boil it to gelatinize it)? This has been reported to me as being used successfully (I happily seem to be a clearing house for CAP). It is pricier than ordinary corn meal. Be sure to mash any cornmeal with 30% malt for ~20 min. before boiling it and adding it back to the main mash. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:03:22 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: whiskey or whisky Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> asks: >While the topic of whiskey is in the air, does anyone know why there >are two spellings - whisky and whiskey? I always heard it was because the Scots were too frugal to waste an extra letter. At least that helps me remember who spells it how. >From p. 208 of _The Book of Bourbon_, by Regan and Regan, come this, but with no reason given for the difference: "The basic rule is: The Scots and Canadians spell the word W-H-I-S-K-Y, whereas Americans and Irish tend to add an e , makeing it W-H-I-S-K-E-Y. But as with all rules, thereare exceptions. Federal regulations governing whiskey, for instance, don't spell the word with the e even though they are home-grown directives. And neither do George Dickel, Maker's Mark, Old Forester or Early Times use that e when labeling their bottles, even though they are all American whiskies." Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:58:27 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> Subject: Re:Sanitizing Bottles & Aluminum Foil Tom I use foil! My SOP now is when I empty a bottle I immediately clean it with a squirt of 'softsoap' sitting by the sink, shake around vigorously to remove any sediment, then rinse. Then, I fill the bottle with a squirt of bleach soln and fill with cold tap. I cover each bottle with a square of foil. I store the bottles this way. When bottling time comes along, I dump the bleach and rinse with my bottle washer - I reuse the foil and cover the clean bottle until I fill with beer and cap. Saves at least the step of soaking the bottles just prior to bottling. Actually, it just spreads it out over time. Rinsing two cases of bottles takes me about 20 minutes. Sanitizing AND rinsing used to take at least a couple times as long, including soak time. My only concern is the couple cases of bleach sitting around where kids can get at it - not cool, very dangerous. - ----- Um, I used to say I never cared about making a 'clone' brew, but any advice on Mad Monk Nut Brown Ale? Thanks Matt _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:42:25 -0600 From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu> Subject: Re:nitrogen bubbles In his response to a N2O questions, Dan Listermann comments about N2 for stouts: " N2 is almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of a bubble this way so they last longer." I've seen this comment on the HBD before, but I don't understand how N2 could get into the bubbles in the first place. The N2 is introduced through the top of the keg to push the beer out through the dip tube in the bottom. If N2 is indeed insoluble in beer, how does it get to the dip tube to come out in the bubbles? If that's the case, then isn't the real point of a CO2/N2 gas to allow a lower CO2 partial pressure to permit lower carbonation levels in kegged beer when the length of the dispensing tube requires a higher total gas pressure to push the beer out of the tap? If that's the case, then isn't N2 a red herring when trying to get a thick head? Tidmarsh Major Birmingham, Alabama Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:30:31 -0600 From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com Subject: re: nitrous oxide From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> Subject: Nitrous Oxide Jeff Hall asks:<Has anyone tried using 'whip-its' Nitrous Oxide cartridges designed for making whipped cream to tap a 5 liter minikeg? I'm thinking of trying it on minikeg of stout ('bottle' conditioned). Would NO2 gas work in place of pure Nitrogen gas?> I asked the manufacturer of these cartridges this very question. He told me that CO2 forms carbonic acid as it passes through the bubbles. N2 is almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of a bubble this way so they last longer. NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways similar to CO2. I would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2. He did say that the nitric acid has a sweet taste?????????? Dan Listermann dan at listermann.com Hey, somebody help me out here. I know what nitric acid is and how to make it. Been there done that. {2 NOx + H2O -> HNO3 + NO(x-1) and 2 NO(x-1) + O2 -> 2 NOx} I think laughing gas which is in the 'whip-its' is a totally different beast. You do NOT want nitric acid forming in your lungs while you are have dental work done. Trust me! Nitrous oxide is N2O and I believe it is very stable. It may not behave like N2, but I don't think it behaves like CO2/carbonic acid. I don't have the books to verify this readily available, so rather than speculate,let me phrase this as a question for our resident chemists. Is what he said true?? Cheers! Lou (who has forgotten more chemistry than most people will ever want to know!) Heavner - Austin, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:57 -0500 From: "David C. Harsh" <David.Harsh at uc.edu> Subject: Brew Stands/Nitrous Oxide/Lighter Side/Cancelling posts Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> asked about Brew Stands... I'm looking for one and here are my options. Most of the people who sell systems don't sell racks unless they include lots of other bells and whistles. What I have found: 1. St. P*t's sells a stand available in either iron or stainless for around $400 in stainless, near $300 iron. It can't be taken apart so it has to be shipped by truck (about $150 from TX to OH), but does have the facility for attaching burners and can be mounted on casters. Look at their catalog for details. I know some people hate them, but when I called and asked questions, I got precise answers about dimensions. 2. Modesto Brewing Supply sells the "Penquat Brew Tree" which they have advertised in Zymurgy occasionally (Summer 1996 p. 73, Spring 96 p. 84). They're tough to get a hold of by phone, but the pictures in Zymurgy look interesting and I'm awaiting info by mail about the details. You can call them at 1-800-CXS-BREW. The Penquat can be shipped by UPS, but you have to assemble it. 3. People like pbs say they do custom work, but I haven't talked to them about just a stand and don't know if they do stands without the kettles and other stuff. Likewise for pico-brewing, etc. 4. I'm also considering taking a drawing to Joe Schmoe's welding here in town and seeing what they'd charge to make a rack for me. My guess is these small welding shops could do it without too much trouble and the price could possibly be negoti-beer-ated depending on how much business they have at the time. No affiliation with any of the above. - --------------------------------------- Jeff Hall asked about Nitrous Oxide Dan Listermann said "NO2 forms nitric acid...." Actually, Nitrous Oxide is N2O. My concern about this would be that N2O decomposes into nitrogen (N2) and free radical oxygen that either recombines to make oxygen or reacts with anything it finds to oxidize it rapidly. Something about using a gas that will oxidize your beer just doesn't seem like a good plan. - --------------------------------------- On the lighter side: over the holidays, I managed to use the word "gueuze" in a game of Scrabble, getting a triple (or would that be tripel?) letter score for the Z. Luckily, I had my copy of Jackson's Belgian Ale book (mandatory airport reading) so I could document the word. My goal was "zymurgy" for a triple word score, but my family has decreed that I can't use any more dorky beer words. Hmph! - --------------------------------------- Rant mode: I've now read about 5 responses telling me that a CFU is a colony forming unit - if some else answers the question and you see it, cancel your post, ok? That's why we have the capability. (rant mode off) Dave Harsh Bloatarian Brewing League, Cincinnati, OH O- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:54:31 -0500 From: "Franklin.Tom" <frankli1 at niehs.nih.gov> Subject: Sanitizing Bottles and Aluminum Hi All, Many thanks to all of you who responded to my question about sanitizing bottles. For those of you who may be curious as to the general consensus, everyone who responded said they had been successful with sanitizing bottles ahead of time and either: * wrapping the tops with a piece of aluminum foil * wrapping the tops with plastic wrap * hanging the bottles upside down on a special rack to dry and leaving them there Great responses from all! thanks again, tom _________________________________________________ Tom Franklin TPMC Corporation Macintosh Computer Support Module/Floor D3&4; E4; F3 NIEHS Information Technology Support Services Contract Phone: (919) 541-4797; Room E-352 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:07:40 -0800 From: Darren Cousineau <dtcloans at pacbell.net> Subject: Dry Rice Extract Does anyone know the S.G. produced by 1 lb. of dry rice extract in one gallon of water. I can't seem to find any info on this in my docs. E-mail answers are fine. Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:06:20 EST From: YYZCLAYTON at aol.com Subject: Re: CFU's/ NG? From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com Subject: CFU's/ NG? >My question is the best (safest, cheapest, easiest) way to run the gas >to a 30K burner I scabbed out of an old water heater? I got a flexible >gas line, like the ones used for appliances, but I have no way to >connect to the 3/8 reverse flare fittings on the burner to the 1/2 pipe >threads, unless I buy an $80 water heater regulator. New water heaters >only cost $120! >Then I had a thought- Why can't I terminate the ball valve with a hose >barb, and use that tan rubber gas hose like the stuff we used in college >chem lab? >We currently have it in our lab here at work, to. It is made for NG, >very flexible, and I could disconnect it and store it in the basement >when not in use. Eric, I use a 30K BTU Superb burner running off the furnace NG line in my garage. I went to the local bottle gas company and picked up a gas valve that has a 1/2" pipe thread on one end and a 3/8" flare on the other. Then I purchased a 10' (thick black) gas hose with 3/8" flare fittings crimped on to each end of the hose. This connects NG valve to the burner's gas valve. I have a couple of 3/8" flare caps to protect the fittings and protect against any curious kids "accidentally" turning on the gas valve when I'm not around. I wouldn't use the hose you are talking about. It is way too easy to kink or puncture and can fall off of the barb fitting near the burner causing a fire. The gas hose I have is REALLY tough and with the flare fittings I don't have to worry about it falling off. Where is the gas orifice in your setup? You don't want to run straight off of the gas line without an orifice. It has been a while since I've taken a water heater apart so I can't remember if it was in the burner or in the valve. >Also, since NG is low pressure, low flow, I should be able to get some >flame control from the ball valve shut-off, right? I mean, for the most >part, I'll want to go full bore anyway, boiling 7-10 gallons at 30K BTU, right? I don't think you want to control the gas flow at the beginning of the line. What if for some reason the pressure drops (kink the hose if you use the tan burner hose) and the flame backs up the hose? Again, a possible fire. I'd try to have a valve with orifice right at the burner for control. The bottle gas companies have all kinds of valves and fittings. If you take the burner in I'm sure they can fix you up. I normally boil 7 1/2 gallons of runnings and have the gas valve on my superb about 2/3 open to keep a good rolling boil. I also light the flame (running very low) after collecting enough runnings to cover the bottom of my 1/2 bbl boiler. I keep turning the flame up as I sparge and get a boil typically about 10 min after the sparge using this procedure. Good luck and hope this helps, Joe C. Farmington Hills, MI USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:16:15 -0600 From: "Siegi Chavez Jr." <siegi at ti.com> Subject: Millenial Barley Wine / Plastic Fermenters Greetings All! I have noticed a number of posts recently from people planning Milennial Barley Wines. I am about to bottle mine, and thought I would throw the recipe out there for the collective. All Grain / 3 Gallons 12.5 lbs pale ale malt 1.0 lbs crystal malt (40 L) 0.5 lbs dextrin malt 1.5 ozs each Fuggles and EKG (~5.5% AA) Single infusion at 154 F in a 5 gallon Gott cooler, at about 1.1 qts/lb. Sparged to 4 gallons, 90 minute boil. Added Fuggles for 60 mins, EKG 1/2 oz each for 30 and 15 mins. Added Irish moss at 15 mins, chilled and topped up to 3 gallons. Open fermented in 4 gallon stainless pot, transferred to glass secondary afetr 10 days. I pitched with Nottingham dry (quickly becoming a favorite), OG 1.100, GF 1.013. Taste test from the gravity reading was superb. Malt, hops, esters... a little bit of everything. All kind of understated, though. I plan on dry hopping with the last 1/2 oz of EKG and then bottling. Now I wonder how long I can make 3 gallons last... Quick question, as well. Does anyone know of a source for plastic cylindroconical fermenters in the 1 to 3 barrel range? I haven't got the boiler and mash tuns yet, but I know those can be worked out. Private e-mail is fine, and if anyone wants the information just dropme a line and I'll let you know what I heard. Thanks, S Chavez Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:30:53 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> Subject: Re:Nitrous Oxide *ChemGeek alert* I read that someone was concerned with the quality of information on this forum, so I'll suggest: First N2 = molecular nitrogen = major component in air NO = nitric oxide = nasty colorless gas NO2 = nitrogen dioxide = nasty brown gas HNO3 = nitric acid N2O = dinitrogen oxide = nitrous oxide = colorless gas, anesthetic, and aerosol propellant >From Advanced Inorganic Chemistry, Cotton and Wilkinson, 5th, pp. 320,321: "Nitrous oxide is relatively unreactive.... At elevated temperatures it decomposes to nitrogen and oxygen...and supports combustion." >He told me that CO2 forms carbonic acid as it passes through the bubbles. Yes, see Adv. Inorg. Chem, 5th, pp 245. >N2 is almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of a bubble this way so they last longer. NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways similar to CO2. I don't know about the first statement. I thought there was a difference in the solubility of CO2 vs. N2 in aqueous solutions, and this caused the bubbles to act differently (I guess that is saying the same thing). But N2O is 'relatively unreactive' and does not form HNO3 in water. Otherwise every time some kid sucks on a whip-it vial his insides would melt. However, NO2 = nitrogen dioxide (which is not the nitrous oxide in whip-its) does react with water to give HNO3 (See Adv. Inorg. Chem., 5th, pp. 324). >I would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2. I don't know about N2O (nitrous oxide) as a substitute for N2, but NO2 is NOT a substitute for N2. >He did say that the nitric acid has a sweet taste?????????? Ouch So I didn't give an answer, 'Is N2O (nitrous oxide) a substitute for N2?' but only clarified the question. Typical ChemGeek procedure. Matt _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:51:38 -0500 From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com> Subject: Stainless steel screen Brewers, Inspired by Jack Schmidling's web page, I am putting together my own version of an EasyMasher (R). Does anyone know of a good source of stainless steel screen? Jack's page mentions kitchen strainers. What have the rest of you DIYers done? Copper or brass would also be good, I guess. Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:04:10 -0600 From: "John Weerts" <jweerts at kcbiermeisters.org> Subject: Kansas City Bier Meisters RHC Feb 19th/20th The Kansas City Bier Meisters are pleased to announce its 16th Annual Homebrew Competition. The event is sponsored by Bacchus and Barleycorn, Ltd. and is sanctioned by the American Homebrewers Association as a regional competition. The competition is a Qualifying Event for the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewers and a qualifier for the Mo-Kan Brewer of the Year Competition. Judging will be Feb. 19 and 20 at the Flying Monkey Brewery in Merriam, Kan. Awards will be announced following the Best of Show judging and a Texas Round-Up Dinner prepared by Professor Danial Turner, CWC/Club Chef. Special guests George and Laurie Fix will give a talk on "Non-additive Brewing" over breakfast on Feb. 20 and a pub-crawl featuring eight local brewpubs in also on the agenda. More information may be obtained at the KC Bier Meisters homepage http://www.kcbiermeisters.org or by contacting Competition Director Steven Ford competition at kcbiermeisters.org In Brewing, John R. Weerts Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:02:25 -0500 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com> Subject: Millennium Barley Wine > this is going to be good stuff new years > eve. start planning your millenium party now. Yeah, too bad this new years eve isn't the change of the millennium, though. cheers, -Alan - -- Alan McKay Nortel Networks Norstar WinNT 613-765-6843 (ESN 395) amckay at nortelnetworks.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:00:58 -0500 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com> Subject: RE: Aluminum Foil > One of the Yeast (Genetics) > scientists told me that this helps to keep bacteria out. Bacteria, he > explained, likes to land in a straight line down and doesn't do so well > going up and under things (like aluminum foil wrapped around the top of a > flask). My intuition told me this a long time ago ... > Out of curiosity, does anyone out there do this with bottles? I like > brewing but I hate bottling. By the end of a day of sanitizing, rinsing, > filling and capping bottles I'm sick of it all. If I could break that into > two separate processes by a few days, that would be great. I used to do it a lot when I bottled, but it became a pain in the butt to handle all those little wee pieces of foil. What I ended up doing is lining the bottom of the beer case with paper towel and just turning the bottles upside down into it. Now I keg my beer. cheers, -Alan - -- Alan McKay Nortel Networks Norstar WinNT 613-765-6843 (ESN 395) amckay at nortelnetworks.com Return to table of contents
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