---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  cfu etc. (Jim Liddil)
  Re: sweetness source (Scott Murman)
  Rheingold Extra Dry---It's back! What's that hop? (ThomasM923)
  Bitburger "taste alike" recipe (Jeffrey McPike)
  re: brew stands (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: Kegging without CO2 (Tim Anderson)
  New address for MCAB (LBonham)
  CO2 Kegging (Bill Tonkin)
  Re: Plastic bucket for boil vessel ("Chuck Mryglot")
  Re: Mashing corn meal before boiling ("Charles T. Major")
  1728 Barleywine; coffee stout ("Penn, John")
  Yet more about cereal cooking / Malt use outside of brewing ("George De Piro")
  that creamy Guinness head . . . ("Spies, Jay")
  Sanitizing Bottles (Ted McIrvine)
  FWH and Thin Beer (Ian Forbes)
  Dry Yeast... (Joe Rolfe)
  Paddle (Dave Hinrichs)
  Un-supported opinions (Tom Clark)
  low barleywine OG & new hops (Project One)
  re: fusels... (Lou.Heavner)
  Recipes wanted (Andrew Krein)
  threshold for newbies??? (VQuante)
  Beer Engines (Lee Menegoni)
  Use of Oxynator:  Is it necessary? (Bobpreed)
  boiling kettle false bottoms (Dan Sherman)
  Re: Gump Report (marnold)
  Corny Relief Valve ("Robert Phelan")


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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:13:16 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: cfu etc.

Now that we all know what a cfu is lets consider some details.  For
starters I might suggest that you go to:
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/qna.html for a nice explanation of how to do
microbiology testing.

Now consider what is on the wyeast site:
Purity Standards: 
 Wild Yeast and Mold ; Negative in 10 ml suspension
 Bacteria ; < 1 cfu / ml
 Yeast Mutants; None detected
There is no description of how the tesing is done and with what media.  No
methodology is described.  I could claim low cfu levels in toliet water if
I used highly acidic media with antibiotics.  Are tests done anaerobically
or aerobicaly?  At what temperature and for how long are the samples
incubated?  When is testing done?  Are samples taken from a btach culture
or are packages sampled?  If packages are sampled how many per lot are
tested?  Is the 10 ml sample a single sample or are multiple samples taken?
since this thread originally started with a question about qa/qc standards
of the various yeast producers I thought I'd give some food for thought.
And does this purity standard apply to the 3278? :-)

Jim Liddil
www.liddil.com



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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:25:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: sweetness source

> >A high sacc. temp. also shouldn't contribute much sweetness, per se.Any
> sugar in the wort will >be consumed by the yeast, unless somethingis very
> wrong. 
> 
> what is the source of sweetness in beer?  if the yeast consume all the
> sugar, what makes the sweet beer styles sweet?

I considered deleting that last paragraph (actually the whole post),
because I wasn't sure myself what I meant, but then figured "what the
heck, it'll start some discussion".

Sweetness will definately be enhanced by caramel, or crystal malts,
and alcohol is also sweet-tasting itself.  I'm confused myself by the
role of yeast strain.  Some strains definately attenuate differently,
but then the difference is residual sugar is measured at < 2%.  Can a
0.5 or 1% measure of residual sugar be tasted?

 -SM-



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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:12:42 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Rheingold Extra Dry---It's back! What's that hop?

Don't worry, I'm not going to say that Rheingold is a delicious classic beer
that everyone should love, because, well... it just isn't, and most won't. I
remember it from many years back as being one of those brews that was clean
tasting but with very little else going for it. I figured it was gone for
good, when lo and behold I see a little poster in the liquor store stating:
Rheingold Extra Dry---It's back! Well, I'm a sucker for a good come back, not
to mention some nice retro-style packaging, so I bought a can. Not
surprisingly, it still is a fairly lackluster brew, but I don't remember there
being any hop character in the stuff from years ago. This stuff has a nice
subtle hop flavor. Which brings me to my request...
I hate asking someone to waste their taste buds on mediocre suds, but I really
want to know what kind of hops Rheingold uses in the current reincarnation. I
love that hop. I think it might be Tettanger, but I'm not sure. If anyone with
a good taste for hops could try a can, and tell me what you think it is, I'd
really appreciate it.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:43:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeffrey McPike <n9cqs at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bitburger "taste alike" recipe

Anybody have a recipe that tastes like Bitburger Pils?






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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:49:01 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: brew stands

Thought I'd chime in my .02 worth.  I've seen photos on
various web pages of stands built using various materials,
one of which was wood.  Of course, the burner portion was
not wood.

I built my stand using a strut material (Super Strut).  It
is on the expensive side and I spent +$200 building the
basic stand.  I've since added to it so the cost continues
to go up.  I'm not keeping an accurate record of the cost
as I buy/build parts as I need them.  The nice thing about
the stuff I used was that it bolted together.  I cut it using
a metal cutting blade on my chop saw.  A hack saw or metal
blade in a jig saw would work too.

You can find angle/flat material at most building supply
places.  Another option is to use 1/2" or 3/4" pipe.  Most
places will cut to length and thread the ends.  This
requires a good plan and knowing all the lengths of pieces
before you start.

There are many ways to obtain a stand.  I enjoy building
stuff, so for me I knew I'd build my own.  The material
you use to construct a stand mainly depends upon the your
tools and ability.  If you lack the tools or skills to build,
you may be able to find someone (friend or local business)
who will help you.  Buying a pre-built stand is an alternative
as well.  The one plus about designing your own stand is that
it will be tailored for your needs.  Why pay for a stand
that won't suit your needs.  For myself, I brew mostly
5 gallon batches (an occasional 10 gallon batch, my first
this weekend) and I brew in my basement.  My stand fits my
brewing equipment, fits under my exhaust hood and meets
my needs.  A stand based on converted kegs would have
been too large, in more ways than one, for my situation.

There are many web sites out there which show how various
people have put together their equipment/brewery.  I took
ideas from several places and built something to suit my
situation.  I built it myself, you might find it easier to
have someone else built it for you or buy a pre-built
system.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:54:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging without CO2

Tim Evans asks about doing real ale at home:
>>>
Does anyone have experience with kegging beer and then dispensing it
with a hand pump (like they do in certain English pubs), as opposed to
using CO2 to dispense.   I have not even progressing to kegging my
beer yet but would like any information available about this process
and whether it is feasible for us homebrewers.  
<<<

You mean any English pub worth visiting.  What you are referring to is
cask conditioned ale, usually called real ale in England.  It is,
without question, the best way (CAMRA would say the only way) to serve
good ale.  It is the only way you'll find ale served in a decent pub. 
The problem for homebrewers is that air is introduced into the keg,
causing oxidation in a very short time.  In a pub, it is possible to
turn the beer over fast enough that it's not a problem.

Even for pubs, doing it well is no mean fete.  I spent most of 1998
working in Hertford, UK.  Hertford has a local brewery, McMullen,
whose beer is served in all but a few of the pubs in town.  Because
you can get the same beer in so many pubs, it was possible to compare
the cellarmanship of the various publicans.  The difference in quality
is stunning.  Brewing is a craft.  So is cellaring.  I'll probably
brew beer for the rest of my life, but I expect that I'll always
charge my kegs with CO2, because I'm just not up to the challenge of
real ale.

By the way, if you ever find yourself in Hertford (pronounce it
Hartford), find your way to the White Horse on Castle Street.  Ask for
a pint of whatever's the freshest.  You won't be sorry.  And say hello
to Sean and Liz from Tim in Portland Oregon.  And ask for a peek in
the cellar.  You won't be sorry about that either.

tim

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:01:40 EST
From: LBonham at aol.com
Subject: New address for MCAB

Hi folks:

Please note: effective immediately, my new e-mail address is:

lkbonham at hbd.org

Please route all MCAB correspondence to this address.  Additionally, if you
have tried to send me e-mail since last Friday (Jan 22), please resend it to
this new address.

If you're planning to come to the MCAB and haven't made your hotel
reservations at the conference hotel, don't delay , , , the hotel releases all
unsold rooms in the MCAB block in the next few days, and we'd hate not to have
cheap rooms available for anyone coming from out of town . . . . 

Regards --  Louis K. Bonham
                 Organizer,  Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:04:15 -0500
From: Bill Tonkin <billt at wcu.campus.mci.net>
Subject: CO2 Kegging

I have a coke style soda keg system, and i cannot get the beer to hold any
kind of head, i did a 6 1/2 gal batch and bottled the other gallon and a
half and they had a head, but the stuff in the keg had no head at all.  I
have read conflicting articles about not using any priming sugar and just
feeding the keg 20-25lbs of co2 a day, and others that say to use a 1/2 cup
of priming sugar and not to feed the beer any co2 until you want to
dispense.  I have only tried feeding the keg co2 and i did so for 4 days
and no head.  can you guys help me out?
thanks 
bill
Happiness is good health and a bad memory.   - Ingrid Bergman (1917-1982) 


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:36:47 -0500
From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic bucket for boil vessel

steve at globaldialog.com writes asking about plastic boiling vessels

I've been using a plastic boiling vessel for about 5 years.  There is a
commercial one available with a 220 heating unit which used to cost about
$100 I believe.    I made my own with 2 110 heating elements.  I bought the
elements from a catalog (H & R something or other..I'll get the name if
you're interested) for $2.95 each.     I just plug each heater in and let it
go.   It takes about 30 min to come to boil.   The first boiler I made
lasted through about 75 batches and developed a crack from the hole where
the heating element is installed.  So, I retired another plastic fermenter
and made a new boiler....  I've gone about another 50 batches with no signs
of cracks.

good luck

chuckm



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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:17:17 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Mashing corn meal before boiling

Alan McKay writes about mashing corn with a small portion 
of malt before cooking:

This is a very good example of one of those things that big 
brewers do, that some homebrewer reads about, and naturally 
(but falsely) assumes that we should be doing it, too.  

Another added benefit of mashing the corn meal before 
boiling is that it reduces the amount of water necessary to 
cook the corn by converting those starches that are already 
released so that they don't thingken while boiling.  This 
isn't always a concern on a homebrew scale, but for those 
like me who have a 5 gal mashtun, the volume of cooked 
cereal and mash can overwhelm the mashtun volume, which 
was my experience with my first CAP.

regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, ALabama



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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:37:51 -0500
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: 1728 Barleywine; coffee stout

	I made two 2.5 gallon batches of barleywine last June, both
about 1.098 OG and about 1.020-1 FG 10% ABV!  One batch used a 1/2
gallon starter of 1728 Scottish Ale yeast and the other used Nottingham
dry yeast.  True 1728 is very flocculant, but you can always shake the
carboy to try and resuspend the yeast.  I was happy with the
attenuation.  On the other hand, at bottling time 3 weeks or so later, I
did not add additional yeast.  The Batch using Nottingham dry yeast
carbonated in a couple of months but the 1728 batch did not seem to
carbonate.  After 4 mos, I added a pinch of Nottingham yeast to each of
the barleywines from the 1728 batch and they carbonated in another
couple of months.  So in my opinion 1728 is suitable for a barleywine
but next time I would add a little extra yeast at bottling time and I
would skip adding champagne yeast.  A good starter of an appopriate ale
yeast should be sufficient without resorting to champagne yeast.  Just
my opinions/data point.
 	On the coffee stout, one data point.  I added 1/4 # of coarsely
ground coffee as I started to cool the wort.  YOU DO NOT WANT TO BOIL
COFFEE, as many have stated.  The aroma at cooling time from the coffee
was wonderful but disappated by bottling time.  Another alternative
would be to make some coffee with 1/4 pound or so and add it after
fermentation starts to slow so that the aroma doesn't get scrubbed as
much.
  John Penn
  Eldersburg, MD


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999  9:50 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Yet more about cereal cooking / Malt use outside of brewing

     Hi all,
     
     Alan M. writes, regarding the apparent uselessness of adding malt 
     to a cereal cooker along with the adjunct:
     
     "I know that some folks are still going to adhere to these old 
     wives tales, but at least I hope that for others this will dispel 
     the myth once and for all."
     
     Back to me:
     
     While my first post on the subject (HBD 2936) agrees with Alan's 
     conclusion that it is not necessary to add diastatic malt to a 
     cereal cooker in a very small brewery, I wouldn't go as far as 
     saying that it is a "wive's tale" and won't make a difference in 
     the final beer.
     
     1.  Scorching:  Maybe I'm particularly spastic, but I have a 
     pretty easy time scorching something as thick as a pot of moist 
     corn grits when trying to boil it for 20 minutes.  I don't enjoy 
     having to stand at the stove and stir the pot constantly.  Adding 
     diastatic malt to the cereal mash and resting it briefly at 
     saccharification temperature before boiling reduces the viscosity 
     *tremendously.*
     
     2.  Flavor:  As Jeff Renner points out, by adding the malt and 
     saccharifying some of the starch prior to the boil you will be 
     creating Maillard precursors.  The amino acids and sugars will 
     form tasty melanoidins during the cereal boil.  The effect may be 
     small, but it will have an impact on the beer's character.
     
     I have cooked cereal adjuncts with and without the added malt.  
     The cereal mashes with added malt become noticeably darker and 
     richer smelling/tasting than those without malt.  This may not be 
     desirable if you are trying to make a beer that's lighter in 
     color and flavor than Coor light, but I find it nice in a Classic 
     American Pils.
     
     Of note:  if you do scorch your cereal mash (or decoction), you 
     can salvage the batch without completely wrecking the flavor:  do 
     NOT scrape the goo off the bottom of the pot!  Don't even come 
     close to scraping it off.  This way, the stuff that tastes much 
     like an ashtray will not be introduced to the wort.  I think it 
     was Julia Child who wrote that you should dunk the pot in cold 
     water before transferring the food above the scorched stuff.  I 
     have no idea if that really helps or not.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
     Tom asks about the use malt outside of the brewing industry.
     
     According to the folks at Briess, the bulk of their sales are not 
     to the brewing industry (personal conversation I had with some of 
     the folks there last year).  Malt extract is used in the making of 
     many foods (from those awful textured soy protein hamburger 
     substitutes to baked goods and ice cream, etc.).  If it wasn't for 
     the food industry's need for malt extract, I daresay none of us 
     would have ever brewed a batch of beer from extract!  There are 
     far too few homebrewers to make it profitable to make malt 
     extract.
     
     I don't recall all of the details of the forms of malt that are 
     sold to the food industry, but it is quite substantial.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:03:29 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: that creamy Guinness head . . .

All -

There has been some discussion on and off recently regarding "Guinness gas"
and ways to get a creamy head on your beer, which dinged a bell in my addled
brain to ask a question that has been lurking amongst the cobwebs . . .

Contemplating the impending purchase of a chest freezer and the attendant
tap hardware, I remember stumbling across a faucet head assembly in
William's Brewing (no affiliation . . .) called a "creamer faucet" that has
an extra position on the handle that basically "whips" ambient room air into
the faucet, thus theoretically giving the beer going into the glass that
creamy Guinness-like head.  I think it was "pull forward to dispense, push
back to stop, push back real far to 'cream'" (insert bad imagery here).

Has anyone bought one of these things?  Do they work, or is it yet another
shining example of marketing hype?  I would think that it's sort of an
expensive version of the much-lauded HBD "pocket beer engine", but I could
be wrong.  I shudder at intentionally introducing that much oxygen into the
finished beer, but as far as oxidation goes, it seems like it wouldn't be in
your glass long enough to make a difference (at least not in my glass) . . .

Thoughts??

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:12:52 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Sanitizing Bottles

I'm skeptical about Charlie Papazian's advice about rinsing with hot
water which was repeated in HBD #2936.  Won't rinsing with hot water
impart impurities from the hot water heater?  (Greg Noonan suggests cold
rinses on p. 212 in "Brewing lager beer")

Ted McIrvine
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:49:00 -0500
From: Ian_Forbes at AICI.COM (Ian Forbes)
Subject: FWH and Thin Beer

Here are two questions for the collective.

First, I am planning on brewing this weekend and I wanted to
try my hand at First Wort Hopping.  After searching the
archives, I'm still not sure I have the answer to my question.
When FWHing, do you take the hops out of the wort before the
boil, or do you leave them in for the entire boil?  (easy
question huh?)

Next, I just had the first taste of my first all-grain, in the
bottle only a week but I couldn't wait, and OH- - -MY- - -GOD
was it awesome! -IMHO- (I have previously posted the recipe and
details regarding this particular brew at
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2920.html#2920-14).  The porter is
crystal clear, even when chilled, (never had that with an
extract beer) and the color, while very dark, when held up to a
light is brown with beautiful red tones.

On to the question...For the purposes of this discussion I will
give you two details (my guess at the important ones but check
out the complete details if you wish).  First detail is that
the mash was at about 154 f and lasted almost two hours.  The
second is that this was a semi botched no-sparge attempt.  The
first runnings were collected and then water added to finish at
post boil volume of 5 gallons. ( In my original post I believe
that I stated 1 1/2 to  2 gallons first runnings at SG 1.095.
I believe that 2 1/2 to  3 gallons would be more accurate).  I
failed to measure the OG.  FG was 1.011. And finally to the
question;  the only flaw that I noticed was that this porter
seemed to be on the thin side.  That is, it did not have a lot
of mouthfeel.  The flavor seems to be fine, i.e. not weak in
any way.  I just feel that the consistency is thin, like there
is not a lot _there_ (bad description, but it's hard to put
into words).  Does anyone have any observations/suggestions as
to what might have caused this?  If the description is too
vague, email me and I will try to do better.

As always, thanks for the help!

Ian
Hamden, CT


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:11:15 -0500
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Dry Yeast...

I said....
>>Dry Yeasts - there are places here and in Europe that provide
>>excellent quality dry yeast to commercial brewers and if a
>>homebrewer want to fork over $200 to $400 for it.

Rob Moline said...
>As a commercial brewer that has used the Lallemand product for many years,
>in two successful brewpubs, I will refute the 200-400 $ tag....
>Commercial brewers in the US currently pay much less than that for their
>dry yeast...........

I did not say they were paying that much, I merely said they have it
available at similar quality to that of slants. That the technology
of providing quality dry yeast seems to have come along way since
1990.

I too, in a commercial operation, used Lallemand - amoungst others.
Again
I have not brewed with any of those for many years and I assume alot
of the
issues with the dry yeasts of the past have been solved. At that time
it was
easier but the flavors where well less than those of quality pure
strains.
(totally baseless data point there - no hard facts to back it up -
just
the brewers and informal taste panel taste buds)

One thing wont change tho, a brewpub and a micro are very different in
respect
to products. Pubs have a captive crowd.  Micros must stand alone
amidst the
other micros on the shelf/tap.  The bottom line is flavor profile. And
as we all
know the yeast is a major contributor. (another baseless data
point??). In
general I still dont see and did not see many commercial packaging
breweries using dry yeast (no matter whose it was).

One way to stand out is to find a very unique yeast, that, not many -
if any,
of breweries in the area are using. Picking it is quite a difficult
process
and if your buying them at $100-$400 a pop, expensive. The dry yeast
lab I
was refering to is Alfred Jorgensons (spelling may be way off...).  At
the
time I looked into them they had several dozen extremely pure dry
yeast - again
you only get a small vial. You only buy it once. The
Lallemand/Whitbread dry yeasts
I had access to did not come with purity certificates nor where they
very stable
(stable = each batch of yeast produced the same flavor profile in the
final product
and you really did not want to repitch very many times before using a
new brick).

Dry yeast is very easy for the pubs, no lengthy build up, limits the
amount
of lab work, cheap in price and reasonable in flavor. Good/well funded
micros
 - have alot of hardware and manpower invested in yeast management. The
expense
incurred by investing inhouse yeast management over the long term is
cheaper than
continually buying dry yeast. (baseless to the point that when someone
sits
down and does the math - it will be come clear).  A micro will live or
die by
its yeast, a brewpub is a restaurant first - it will live or die by
its food/service.
(this is not a baseless fact - but alas I have no refs...) 

Having a world class dry yeast available may be one of the greatest
steps forward
in recent years. (yet another baseless datapoint). I know I will more
than likely
(one way or another) obtain Lallemands new dry yeasts - if in fact
this does make 
it to market.  I give Lallemand large congrats - if they can pull it
off.

Good Luck and Great Brewing
Joe Rolfe


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:26:30 -0500
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: Paddle

I got a new wodden paddle for mash stirring and such. My question is should
I coat the paddle or leave it bare wood. Any thoughts, comments, and coating
suggestions welcome. 

Just a few fittings to tighten till the new SS mash/lauter tun is ready.
***************************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs                 E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.             Voice: (612) 935-3367 *
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:43:40 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Un-supported opinions

When Gallileo expressed his opinion that the earth was round and that 
the earth rotated around the sun, he had few references to support his 
ideas.  He was severely chastised for suggesting a thought that was so 
contrary to the teachings of his day.  As a matter of fact, he was 
banned from teaching this theory for the rest of his life.  Although 
there were some before him who believed the same to be true, many of his 
ideas were born out of logic rather than regurgitating someone else's 
thoughts learned from a book.  I support the idea that suggestions 
should be supported with references whenever possible, but I would hate 
to see a good thought or suggestion suppressed simply because no 
reference was readilly available.

Tom Clark


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:53:09 -0800
From: Project One <project1 at pond.net>
Subject: low barleywine OG & new hops

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my
problem (Rod P, I tried replying twice, but it bounced back).  The two main
suggestions I got were a bad hydrometer (we checked, seems OK) or not
mixing well enough after we topped it off.  This looks to be the most
likely thing, because ya gotta trust physics, right??  If we put all that
stuff in, it didn't vanish (I hope).  Anyway, thanks again.

BTW, we used a hop called Magnum for this one that is a high alpha, very
smooth (supposedly) hop.  Our HB shop guy says that it's a new variety and
Sierra Nevada just made it their standard bittering hop.  Initial tests on
a couple of other batches look like this is gonna be a great hop.  I'd
recommend that you try them if you can find them.

		------------------->Denny Conn



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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:16:28 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: fusels...

     From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>

     {snip stuff on another topic... }

     >From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
     >Subject: A newbie question please...
     >Could someone tell me what Fusel alcohols are...why they are bad,
     what the
     >taste is like (so I can know how to detect), and how to prevent them?

          Fusels are produced in every fermentation....but you don't notice
     them in
     most beers, unless they are high gravity, where the effect of having
     more of
     everything makes them stand out...
          Respiratory Deficient Mutant yeasts are fond of making
     them......don't
     worry about them yet......I doubt that you need to....
          But, for what it is worth to me, don't worry about fusels unless
     you are
     brewing  at  a high gravity.....and then remember that they will
     dissipate in
     time....
          That is why a strong ale or barleywine worth it's mettle will
     taste 'sharp
     and angular' until at least 6 months of conditioning has occurred.
     That
     'sharp' taste is from fusels.......they go away with time......

     I've heard this before and certainly longer conditioning does have a
     mellowing affect on high gravity beers.  I am curious as to how this
     actually occcurs.  Anybody know or care to speculate?  Do the yeast
     consume the fusels?  Are other metabolic byproducts or enzymes
     reactive with them.  Are they oxidized?  In general, alcohols are
     natural solvents and fairly stable, or so I thought.  They are less
     volatile than ethanol but more volatile than water as indicated by the
     fact that they create problems by accumulating in continuous
     distillation columns that separate ethanol and water.  I assumed that
     if you had enough fusels in your beer to taste, that you were pretty
     much stuck with them.  But that is really just a wag which was neither
     theoretically nor empirically derived.

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX (the home, I'm told by partisan sources, of
     the next president of the U.S.)



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Date: 25 Jan 1999 14:53:12 -0500
From: Andrew Krein <Andrew.Krein at noaa.gov>
Subject: Recipes wanted


     I'm an extract brewer and I'd like to find recipes for barley wine and 
     imperial stout.  Could someone please forward me some info on where I 
     can find extract recipes for these?  Does anyone out there have a 
     successful recipe?
     
     Thanks
     
     Andy Krein


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:34:59 EST
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: threshold for newbies???

In hbd #2936 "Rod Prather" <rodpr at iquest.net> wrote:

> I suggest  that the Janitors insert a little blurb in the welcome
> letter explaining the level of expertise in the group and the fact
> that the letter is archived.  Something to the respect that all
> questions are welcome but that one should lurk for a while before
> offering advice on the HBD to get a feeling for the mood of the group.
> There is currently no advice like this in the welcome letter.

Thank God, it isn't.

What, if all these "experts" offered only perfect advise - what about the
simple questions, newbies in brewing have? Not all "experts" are willing to
share their experiences, not all are able to express it in a way the newbie
understands.

And what about those, who will give new ideas, new input in a non common
way! In my opinion that gives hbd a fresh flavour, stimulation, reason for new
discussions on newbie level as well as on expert level.

Don't want to bother you and to waste bandwidth, but: Keep the hbd open
without any thresholds, without means of deterrence, or you will lose the
variability of these valuable sorce sooner or later.

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:54:28 -0500
From: Lee Menegoni <Lee.Menegoni at digital.com>
Subject: Beer Engines 

A few years agosome folks I know  made a group purchase of beer engines
from the UK and got them for about $200 each.  One cool way to use them
is to dispense beer from growlers or gallon jugs.  Set up the engine,
place the source tube in the growler/jug  and pump the beer.  This way
you don't have to worry about oxidation or wasting a lot of beer.
Always a hit at meetings or parties.

Lee Menegoni



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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:54:06 EST
From: Bobpreed at aol.com
Subject: Use of Oxynator:  Is it necessary?

In order to add oxygen to the wort before primary fermentation occurs, I have 
been using the simple method of capping the carboy and shaking the heck out of
it for a few minutes.  For long lager brewing, would this method be
sufficient, 
or would using a tool like the Oxynator be necessary to supply the wort with
the 
necessary oxygen?  Has anyone used this product and, if so, where they happy 
with the results?

Thanks all. 


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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:53:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman at biomail.ucsd.edu>
Subject: boiling kettle false bottoms

Thanks to Doug Moyer for posting a great summary about screens for a
lauter tun or boiling kettle.  I have a somewhat related question.

For use in a converted-keg boiling kettle, I've been looking at the false
bottoms sold via www.pbsbeer.com and www.beeronline.com (no affiliation,
etc.) that fit very close to the bottom of the keg & use a siphon tube to
theoretically allow collection of almost all of the wort.

For those of you who use or have used a false bottom in your boiling
kettle to prevent trub & hops from clogging the drain, how well do they
work?

What are the details of your false bottom (commercial, home-made, etc.)?
Do you use whole or pellet hops?
Irish Moss?
Immersion or counterflow chiller?
Any problems with scorching under the false bottom?
Excessive caramelization of the wort?

I'll post a summary.

Thanks!

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu
San Diego, CA


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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 04:09:22 +0000
From: marnold at ez-net.com
Subject: Re: Gump Report

>"A Study of the oldest bible texts, written in Aramaic, 
suggest that Jesus turned water into beer, not wine, during 
the wedding feast in Canaan, the Global Beer Network 
newsletter has reported.

Far be it from me to question the credibility of such noted 
theological journals as the "Global Beer Network 
Newsletter," but I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. 
First of all, the New Testament was originally written in 
Greek, not Aramaic (there are brief portions of the Old 
Testament that are in Aramaic, the vast majority is Hebrew). 
Any Aramaic New Testament texts would be in translation and 
thus less reliable than the original.

BTW, the wedding, while in Canaan, more specifically was at 
Cana.

>"In later translations of the Bible, centuries after the 
fact, beer was replaced by wine"

This is just plain wrong. I'll save you the drawn out text 
study.

>GBN observes. "Wine was considered a drink for the happy 
few that could afford it...(even then) wine marketers were 
already succeeding in giving wine a more upscale image."

This is revisionist history. While I cannot comment on the 
availability of beer to the masses in ~30 A.D. Israel, I do 
know that wine was a common drink, not the sole property of 
the well-to-do by any means.

>According to GBN, noted beer author Michael Jackson also 
subscribes to the theory.

Perhaps Michael should stick to writing about beer . . .

>"Jesus was a hero of the common people," the GBN newsletter 
notes, "fighting the establishment. Why wouldn't he drink 
what everyone else was drinking, which was beer? When you 
think about it, it is very possible that the drink at the 
Last Supper was also Beer."

Ahh, what a slippery slope bad logic is! The concept of beer 
at the Last Supper is the product of fanciful imagination, 
not on any biblical basis. It makes a nice story, but that's 
about it.

Don't get me wrong--I like beer as much as the average 
person (perhaps even more!), but this is just silliness.

Just when I thought I could go on vacation . . .
Matt (the Rev.), posting in the Twin Cities, even farther 
away from Jeff Renner than
usual.



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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:43:31 PST
From: "Robert Phelan" <rephelan at excite.com>
Subject: Corny Relief Valve

Just a quick question to all, what is the ideal relief valve presure on a
corny keg?  I have several defective such valves and was wondering if they
could be used for closed fermenting or is the pressure at 2-3 lbs too high
for that?  Just a thought, not suggesting that anyone notch they their
seals.  


>From 21 miles east of
the continental divide,
Bread, Toast, Whatever,

Robert




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