HOMEBREW Digest #2949 Tue 09 February 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Hot and Cold freezing, nitrogen (Dave Burley)
  Bock again, copper not soluble in acid (Dave Burley)
  Kegging (William Frazier)
  Re: Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis (Scott Murman)
  Brew(ing) loving wife ("Kevin Imel")
  First Lager; Beer bullets ("Steve")
  homebrew cooking - beer stock (Scott Murman)
  Momilies and ice cubes (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer faucets ("Richard Hooper")
  re: Kegging ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Torrified Wheat (JYANDERS)
  Aluminum Soldering/Brazing (Bill Graham)
  Report on Ballantine IPA clone (Jeff Renner)
  Autolysis ("Stephen Alexander")
  using gelatin while dry hopping (Adam Holmes)
  Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer. (Rod Prather)
  Re: Maximum Alcohol ("Tim Green")
  Sake brewery one day brewing job experience (Mutsuo Hoshido)
  odor in beer? (Marc Hering)
  Scrapyard Jewels (Kirk Ramsay)
  Yeast Development ("Bridges, Scott")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:01:08 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Hot and Cold freezing, nitrogen Brewsters: Growing up in an old house without insulated pipes I found out where the momily "hot water freezes faster than cold" came from. It was always our hot water pipes which froze first, since we didn't use the hot water line as much as we did the cold water line. There is no good experiment which will demonstrate that hot water feezes faster than cold, since the hot water must pass thorugh the orignal temperature of the cold water. The cold water will already be below that by that time and will always freeze first. - --------------------------- NItrogen in the gas bubble is what causes Guiness to have a long lasting head. Nitrogen is not very soluble in beer ( about 1/10 as much as CO2 if memory serves) What causes a head to fall is the diffusion of the CO2 through the bubble wall, since it is soluble in the beer. When a Guiness head is formed, it is the CO2 which forms the foam first and then the mechanical action of the sparkler replaces some of the CO2 with nitrogen, which being less soluble does not diffuse out so fast. The head thus lasts longer if all the other things in the beer foam wall ( like proteins and hop/protein complexes) prevent the draining of the wall and weakening it so it bursts. - --------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:02:17 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Bock again, copper not soluble in acid Brewsters: After a long time, I finally got back on line, even though my computer worked fine shortly after I put in a new HD, I couldn't get online until recently. Finally got it fixed by running Scandisk for the third time, no report, no nothing, but it works. Don't ask me. Lots of wasted weeks of days and nights. Sorry I haven't been able to respond to your e-mails until now. Ryan McCammon worries about copper metal dissolving in his beer. Won't happen! . Copper metal ( being below hydrogen in the electrochemical series) is not soluble in common, non-oxidising ( hydrochloric, sulfuric, e.g.) acids, and certainly not in weak acids like lactic, acetic and the like. What is soluble in these acids is copper oxide, which results from the oxidation of copper. Wet copper in contact with air produces this. That ugly brown coating on copper is oxide of copper of various stoichiometries. If you want to make sure you don't get copper in your beer, first wash any copper part that will contact your wort or beer in a dilute solution of an acid like acetic acid ( white vinegar), rinse and then immediately immerse the copper part in the solution to prevent air contact. This explains why "coppers" could be used in Britain to boil the wort without dissolving, as long as they were kept clean and full. Copper was malleable, so could be formed into a kettle and it was an excellent conductor of heat and most importantly copper is not reactive with the wort ( compared to iron which is above hydrogen in the EC Series, for example). Another thing that they had going for them was the low surface area to volume ratio in the huge kettles which would produce a low copper concentration even if some oxide coating was on the walls. Interestingly, copper bowls are used to make nice stiff egg whites because the miniscule amount of copper atoms ( from the dissolved copper oxide) react with the albumin to crosslink protein chains and make a stiffer foam. Doesn't take much and it also doesn't work with a new, clean copper bowl. Lead is also below hydrogen in the EC series and is not soluble in acids(it was used to line sulfuric acid reactors!) , but the oxides are likewise soluble in acids and lead acetate was used as a wine sweetener in Roman times, since they did not understand the damage to their CNS, consuming such heavy metal salts would have. It is right to avoid metals in your beer, but don't be too anal about it, just understand that a quick acid wash with copper will reduce the amount of copper salts in the beer to near zero. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:23:28 +0000 From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Kegging I need some advice from long time keggers...I've been brewing about ten years, at least half that time all-grain. I always bottle my beer. I brew all kinds of beer and the problem discussed below pertains mostly to non dry-hopped, light colored beers. With the rare exception, there always is some off-flavor, usually small and only noticed by me. By this I mean the beer tastes a little different, after it is conditioned, than what I remember before adding priming sugar and filling. (Note: I use a bottling bucket. I pump the finished beer into the bucket using a peristaltic pump (ie. no air touches the beer as it is pumped from the carboy to the bucket). I overlay the beer and priming sugar solution with CO2 (I use enough CO2 so that a lit match will stop burning when lowered into the bucket). I fill by gravity and fill the headspace with CO2 prior to capping. Bottles are scrupulously clean and sanitized before filling --- In my previous life I was a pharmaceutical scientist and understand microbial contamination). Recently I purchased a keg (already had the CO2 set-up for my wine hobby) and made a batch of the Zymurgy SNPA Clone. Bottled about half and kegged the rest. The next day I sampled the beer from the keg. By far one of the best beers I've ever brewed. I did add 1/2 lb flaked barley in place of 1/2 lb pale malt and the head was as creamy as Guinness drawn in Athlone, Ireland. My son said he would be moving back home if this beer was going to be on tap. In about two weeks I sampled the bottled version. That old off-flavor was there. I could perceive it even though the beer was dry-hopped. Something happens in my bottling process and I take pains to keep O2 away from the beer. I purchased several more kegs and intend to get away from bottling. My questions are as follows; -I read where some use the keg for secondary fermentation. Does any subsequent settled yeast plug up the works or is it better to conduct secondary fermentation in a fresh carboy? -If using a keg for secondary fermentation, how do you dry-hop without having the hops plug up the works? -How do most keggers clean and sanitize the kegs? -How long will beer keep that nice fresh taste in a keg? Any other tips will be appreciated. TIA. Bill Frazier Johnson County, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:50:23 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis George De Piro wrote: > > A quick note about yeast autolysis: somebody a few issues back > (sorry, I can't remember the name of the poster) said that yeast > autolysis is not much of a threat to homebrew, even if it is kept in > the primary for a few weeks while you wait for a slow fermentation to > finish. > > This is far from the truth. It was I who made the statement, and you're missing the context, or I didn't make it clear. The original poster was considering racking a barleywine after 1 week in the primary because they'd read somewhere that 1 week was when beer should be racked, all all of their normal gravity ales were done by this point. I simply commented that if it's still fermenting, then leave it alone. Especially for very strong beers. I feel many brewers rack their big beers too early, leading to a higher finishing gravity. As to your main point; problems may develop from leaving the beer in the primary for extended periods, but then again, they may not <shrug>. There are too many variables involved to develop hard-n-fast rules. Personally, I always rack to a 2nd'ary eventually, but let experience be my guide, not dogma. -SM- Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:57:51 -0800 From: "Kevin Imel" <kimel at moscow.com> Subject: Brew(ing) loving wife As a long time (6 years) reader and infrequent poster, I thought I would relate the story of how I discovered that my bride to-be was going to put up with my brewing hobby. We both worked in the same dept on campus (she as a secretary and I as a research tech) and were somewhat aquainted but nothing seemed to be taking off until I put a note on the bulletin board asking for empty, non-twist-off brown beer bottles (I still bottled in those days but she bought me a kegging setup for my birthday a few years back). She promptly brought me two cases of de-labeled, cleaned brown bottles. To repay the favor I dropped off a six-pack of assorted ales and a bottle of mead. She thought I was flirting and next thing I knew I was invited to dinner at her house. Three months later I moved in (leaving my source of pure spring water behind too!) and the rest, as they say, is history. It took me a few batches to get the knack of treating the city water but it has been worth it. She loves the smells of brewing and helps with all aspects, even the clean-up. She especially likes to help with the meads. The other day she observed that 2 of my 4 kegs were empty and the 3rd was getting "light" and informed me it was time to brew. So, tomorrow (sunday) we will brew up her favorite, a brown ale. Also, we are getting ready to build a new house and she insists that there will be a dedicated brewing room in the basement; not to get the mess out of the kitchen but so I can get my 3-tier RIMS going! YIPPEEE!!!! Speaking of dedicated brewing rooms...anyone done this recently and have any lessons they want to share other than piping in the natural gas, LOTS of ventillation, CO monitors, etc? Cheers, and thanks for so many years of great learning about brewing! Kevin ___________________________________ Kevin Imel KF7CN - DN16lv Palouse Washington USA "The Only Way To Truely Fail Is To Fail To Try!" Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:13:43 -0500 From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net> Subject: First Lager; Beer bullets Greetings, All! Two weeks ago I brewed my first lager, a 1.080 Doppelbock. Not only that, but it was also my first decoction mash (single). What an experience!! Here's the recipe. Target OG 1.079 (using 80% efficiency); Calculated IBU 26; SRM 26. 8.5 gallon batch 11 lbs light munich malt 11 lbs dark german munich malt 1 lb dwc caramunich 1/2 lb biscuit malt 2 oz chocolate malt 1.5 oz norther brewer, 6.9 aa, 60 min 1.25 oz hersbrucker, 4.5 aa, knockout Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils Mashed 35 minutes at 133F; pulled thickest 2.5 gal of mash at 20 min, heat to boil (5 min), boiled 10 min, added back to main mash at the 35 minute mark. Hit 154F. Conversion took 2 more hours (??? - low enzyme content of munich??). Then I began the vorlauf & sparge process - extremely slow runoff. It took almost 3 hours to sparge a 9 gallon batch, but it went OK from then on, so maybe someday I'll try it again. Actual OG is 1.080 I pitched a 3 step starter, going from smack pack to 1/2 gallon and decanting the spent wort after the second step. It's been in the primary at 50F for 13 days now, and I'm still getting a bubble out of the airlock every 10 seconds, and there is still about 1/2 inch of krausen on the top. The specific gravity is 1.040. I had expected to be able to do the diacetyl rest and rack to secondary for lagering by now, but I'm not sure if it is ready. Should I try to rouse the yeast? Should I make another starter and pitch it? Or is everything normal and lager yeast normally takes this long to work. Can anyone enlighten me on this? Scott Abene wrote : >Are there any other brewers out there that are getting >positive responses from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, >so I just have to ask. Scott, you're not alone with your spouse and her opinion of brewing. My soulmate of 23 years likes most of my brews, and I do brew a few especially for her taste (yes, one is a raspberry wheat, but also amber maple ale, nut brown ale, and english pale ale). In fact, she's the one who got me started by buying a basic equipment kit and ingredients for my birthday 4 years ago. She's also taken the opportunity to give me many of my brewing gadgets as gifts over the years (PhilMill, KingKooker, glassware, etc). I traded the last 3 months of 98 without brewing (so I could catch up on my other projects around the house) for brewing as often as I want for the first 3 months of 99. Tomorrow (Sunday) I'm brewing my 5th and 6th batches of 99, and should have well over 100 gallons brewed by the end of March. Although she's not into Porters, Stouts, Strong Scotch ales, or doppelbocks, she loves my barleywines, tripels, and most others, and complains when she doesn't have enough variety to choose from (God bless her). Still, she doesn't care much for the aromas during the brewing process, and doesn't want to get involved in the process, so I manage the the brewery (oops, I mean the garage) on my own. Hoppy Brewing !! Steve Jones, brewing Kilgore Trout Stout & J Duck's IPA in Johnson City, TN http://home.att.net/~stjones1 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:21:29 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: homebrew cooking - beer stock I'm a big believer in pitching adequate yeast, and I practice what I preach. I use a 1-2 gallon starter batch for a 5 gal. brew. Usually this is simply made from LME with some hops, so it's not the tastiest drink. I hate throwing anything down the drain, so these starter batches make up the bulk of my "cooking beer". Even so, I'm usually faced with a gallon of beer that I don't have the motivation or time to bottle. What I've been looking for is a means to use large volumes of homebrew. Soups are an obvious choice, but few soups taste very good when made with 50-100% beer. What I've been experimenting with lately is making stocks from beer. Stocks are made from scraps, and form the backbone of most soups, gravies, sauces, etc. 1 chicken carcass, or ham bones, or <fill in the blank> - I freeze this until I'm ready. I chop up the chicken to allow access to the bone marrow. It's possible to use about any scrap, but I'd stay away from fatty meats like bear. It's also possible to make a vegan stock without any meat. 1 gal. homebrew - any flavor or variety chopped onion, celery, carrot, etc. bay leaf whole peppercorns Notice that salt is missing. You don't want to spice this strongly, or whatever you eventually make from the stock could be overwhelmed. The idea is just to extract the flavors from the ingredients via slow cooking. Using beer in this manner is somewhat counterproductive, as it will contribute a strong flavor, but omitting the beer would be even more counterproductive to the whole experiment;) Place all ingredients in (you guessed it) a stock pot, and cook uncovered over a very low heat for about 8 - 12 hours. I do mine on the weekend, just in case something goes wrong so I can be around. It usually reduces from 1 gal. to about 1 qt. If you simmer it covered, obviously, you'll get far less reduction, and also a different flavor. Store the stock in 1 qt. canning jars in the fridge. It will develop a layer of fat on the surface when chilled. Normally stocks should be used within 1 week, but since we're using beer instead of water, that could probably be extended. My efforts have developed into a strong tasting, complex stock. There are all manner of recipes you could try it in at this point. I've tried it in soups, to no great success, but have made a couple of very good sauces and gravies. Try starting with a basic brown sauce, and experiment from there. -SM- Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:16:06 -0800 From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> Subject: Momilies and ice cubes Seems like my definition of a "Momily" went over some heads. Momilies aint necessarily incorrect. The point is Mom said it and it must be right untill we get smart enough prove her wrong. If she was right, it's still a Momily. I simply pointed to the ice cube momily as my favorite example. I passed no judgement on it. I have always however, presumed that it was absurd but did not suggest that in my posting. The interesting comments that followed seem to have validated my intuition. Never thought about the evaporation but it must be trivial compared to the BTU's that have to be pulled out of the water to get it to freeze. Near boiling water, clearly is a red herring. Mom had no such thing in mind and it would be a bit nutty to heat up water to make ice cubes "faster". The time and energy to bring it to a boil make the whole idea an exercize in proving a point for the sake of proving it. js - -- Visit our WEB pages: http://user.mc.net/arf ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:29:33 +0200 From: "Richard Hooper" <richard at dundee.lia.net> Subject: Beer faucets On 25th January, Jay Spies posted: "Contemplating the impending purchase of a chest freezer and the attendant tap hardware, I remember stumbling across a faucet head assembly in William's Brewing (no affiliation . . .) called a "creamer faucet" that has an extra position on the handle that basically "whips" ambient room air into the faucet, thus theoretically giving the beer going into the glass that creamy Guinness-like head. I think it was "pull forward to dispense, push back to stop, push back real far to 'cream'" (insert bad imagery here)." If this has already been replied to, I apologise - I am a little late in reading HBDs lately. Here in South Africa, these type of faucets appear to be the industry norm. They are probably imported from Europe. My taps were bought from an agent for Micromatic products. I have also seen them advertised in a brochure from Braukunst, tel. 1 800-972-BRAU as a pilsner dispenser or some-such. They work very well, and allow one to put a head on a completely uncarbonated beer. Head retention, of course, depends on your beer composition. They also have a very handy little lever on the side of the tap which allows you to regulate beer flow, from a full stream down to a trickle. This is very useful when you have an over-carbonated beer. Hope this helps. Richard Hooper Dundee South Africa Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:35:00 From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net> Subject: re: Kegging Philip asks about kegging : > 1. What do you use to lubricate the o rings etc.. on the corny kegs? Keg Lube from Williams Brewing (800-759-6025). It's a very tacky silicone lube that works great. Item # D52, $3.90 for 1 oz. That's close to a life-time supply since a only a barest trace of the stuff on keg o-rings does the trick. Doesn't affect heading on the brew as one might expect. Don't use vasiline- per a posting by our illustrous janitor Pat awhile back, the stuff will eat the o-rings. > 3. Is there a source where new poppets (the things that the quick > disconnects connect to) can be had? (One of the poppet valves on one of > my kegs is chipped). Are the poppet threads the same on all corny kegs? Same place but they're too expensive for my tastes- $10.90 each for Cornelius ball locks. At that price, one's better off scavenging them from used kegs. BTW, you want "disconnect fittings", "poppets" are the small spring loaded valve affairs that fit inside the disconnect fittings. The fittings are not all the same- the Williams catalog lists 3 different ball and 2 pin lock types. For Cornelius kegs w/o disconnect fittings, use them as fermenters. To attach blowoff tubes and such: Use a 3/8" NPT female threaded copper or SS fitting- a 3/8 NPT female x 1/2" tubing works well. It's not a air-tight fit, but, with a gasket from 1/16" red rubber gasketing between the bottom of the fitting and the keg, it's tight enough. c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net web site: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/ Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:29:26 EST From: JYANDERS at aol.com Subject: Torrified Wheat Can anyone out there tell me what the ideal extraction rate is for torrified wheat? TIA, JMA Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:22:34 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Graham <weg at micro-net.net> Subject: Aluminum Soldering/Brazing Greetings O Masters of Fabrication: I made a boo-boo on my nice aluminum mash tun, drilling a hole about 1/2" from where I should have drilled it. Woops. Then I drilled a hole in the correct place, leaving a "figure -8" looking hole. I would like to patch this so it looks like a "figure-0" hole. I envision cutting out the proper size piece from some aluminum stock and soldering (brazing?) it into the hole. My questions are, O Patient Ones: What kind of solder (I imagine some silver solder)? What kind of flux? Will a propane torch work, or will I need one of them thar MAPP gas ones? Where can I purchase the solder and flux (if non-standard)? A web site would be wonderful here. Or - is there another answer to my solution (preparing myself for sarcasm, cynicism, and outright insults here). Thank You, O Wise and Wonderful Ones. Bill - soon to lose LOTS of beer bullets unless he can fix his mashtun "...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden violence." - Butros Butros-Ghali Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:01:58 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Report on Ballantine IPA clone Brewers Larry O'mahoney <LLOM at chevron.com> has reported to HBD on his attempt to clone Ballantine IPA (see archives). He solicited input on recipe development, which I contributed, on reproducing this legendary American beer. He sent me a 22 oz. bomber, which I've just tasted. It is terrific! I hope this will help encourage other brewers to try this. Here is my note to him: Larry I've just opened and tasted your clone attempt of Ballentine's IPA along with a two year old bottle of the commercial version (B). Here are informal observations (L) = Yours, (B) = commercial: Appearance: L - Pale gold, about like commercial lagers, good head formation and retention. B - Full/dark copper, perhaps some color from black malt plus dark caramel? Good head and retention. Nose: L - Pungent aroma! That elusive old fashioned sour "beery" aroma, DMS (not at all like creamed corn, though) and/or Cluster?, hops, big nose but not like typical commercial or micro or import IPA or other ales, very distinctive and old fashioned - Cluster and something else resinous - white American grapes like Niagara - prob. this from yeast. Very authentic to memory. Lots goping on here. B - Old, sweet caramel nose predominates (old?), light hops aroma. Very much less distinctive. Palate L - Med. body, mod. sweetness (corn?), mod. bitterness, alcohol, but mostly that pungent complex Cluster hop flavor and maybe DMS. Very distinctive. Don't give this to anyone who doesn't like Cluster! B - Fuller body, caramel, sweeter, softer, not bad but fairly simple. A very subtle touch of dark (black?) malt. Finish L - Aromas and flavors linger with a lingering, clinging harsh bitterness - too much sulfate? B - Finish follows palate, clean lingering sweetness balanced with clean, modest bitterness. Overall impressions: L - Big, complex, pungent, flavorful beer marred only by harshness in finish. Misses probable historic target of old Ballantine's probably by color and perhaps caramel maltiness present in today's Ballantine's, but probably authentic to some kinds of old American strong/stock ales. I wouldn't change a thing except to reduce the gypsum and perhaps add just a bit of black malt - not enough to taste, though (!), and maybe up the caramel malt. But I like the cleanness of the low caramel. A very fine beer. B - Surprisingly good for its age, but the real McCoy certainly aged. Probably some of the caramel notes come from age but not unpleasantly oxidized. Not a bad ale and certainly retains a bit of the old distinctiveness, but really only a shadow of its former self. Congratulations on a terrific success! I will post this to HBD. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:26:36 -0500 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Autolysis George De Piro writes about autolysis ... > A quick note about yeast autolysis: somebody a few issues back > [...] said that yeast autolysis is not much of a threat to homebrew, [...] I think you are referring to my comments from mid-1998 (time flies). > This is far from the truth. I have ruined more than enough batches by > keeping them in the primary for 2-3 weeks (even if there was residual > sugar to ferment). Certain yeast strains are more prone to autolysis > than others, but very few ale yeasts do well after 3 weeks in the > primary. Lager yeasts can be a bit more forgiving, at least in part > because of the cool temperature the beer ferments at. > > Yeast autolysis is recognized by a meaty, yeasty, rubbery, > aroma/flavor. In my experience, few judges actually recognize this > flaw for what it is [...] one thing is agreed upon: it is not pleasant! [ advise on removing/repitching yeast to sluggish/stopped fermentors followed] Autolysis is the breakdown, from the inside out, of the dead yeast cells. They 'spill their guts' when the normal protease enzymes used to constantly recycle proteins in the live yeast cell eventually breach the walls of the chamber in which they reside. Consider the flavors George associates with autolysis: "Meaty" - also sometimes referred to as 'brothy'. Meat flavor analysis associates these flavors with maillard and strecker products of the amino acids cystein, glutamine and methionine. Also various products of these and carbonyl groups and fatty acids. Note that fermentation removes virtually all of the glutamine from beer. I don't have figures on the cysteine and methionine content of wort, but the levels in finished beer are quite low and the levels in yeast are considerable. Commercially artificial meat broth is made from these amino acids, but also from yeast hydrosylate (read the package labels). The yeast hydrosylate is made by salting the yeast to extract water, then the yeast are steam heated. The result is 'cooked' in order to create the flavorful breakdown products for the meat flavor. The unpleasant flavors of nutritional yeast are related to the very high thiamine levels. The more pleasant flavors from glutamic acid and 5'-nucleosides. "Yeasty" - I'm a little less convinced that 'yeasty' flavors can be attributed to autolysate rather than just the presence of yeast, autolysed or not. "Rubbery" - this comes from Dave Miller's old book. Miller has taken to calling the aroma "sulfury" more recently and I think this is a better description. M&BS claims that SO2 from normal brewing and yeast breakdown are both due to an enzyme that released sulfur from cysteine. So there is good reason to think that all of these flavors are possible from autolysing yeast. In addition we should expect that all of the fatty acids of the yeast cell would be released. These will kill head as will the proteases eventually and of course oxidized fatty acids, assuming they oxidize, give a distinctive off-aroma that is repugnant and easily detected. I suspect this combined with the sulfury note gives rise to the "rubbery" aroma description. On the positive side consider that sparkling wines in particular, but also chardonnay and even some red wines PURPOSELY include yeast autolysis products. The "toasty, nutty, bready and perhaps yeasty" flavors attributed to fine champagne are a direct result of yeast autolysis. Such wines may be stored for 30 months on the yeast. So the story isn't entirely a negative one. - -- Back to beer. George says that he tastes autolysis in 3 weeks on ale yeasts ! I find this alarming - it is not what I experience. First - I am familiar with the aroma of autolysing yeast aroma - when I occasionally dump yeast down my basement sink (as opposed to the toilet - with a gas trap) and fail to follow with a wash. The decaying yeast aroma comes back up a grate a couple days later. Meaty, sulfury, and rancid oil descriptions all apply - 'dead mouse' hits close to home, tho more sulfury and less oily. Not something you'd seek in a beer. Sometimes that last half glass of beer from a keg contains an off aroma. I suspect that some of the fine yeast sediment has been exposed to CO2 rather than under beer and autolyses. To date I've detected a similar aroma in a yeast culture of mine exactly once. This yeast had growth problems and was subsequently stored under beer for a couple months. I've also seen sulfury notes from yeast cultures stored a long time. I've never tasted anything even vaguely similar in any beer of mine, except for some that were severely oxidized (leaky keg gaskets). These oxidized beers had oxidized oils, and trans-nonenol cardboard aromas, but not especially sulfury or meaty ones and no loss of head. A good friend of mine brews a rather astonishing stout. I once tasted a version of this stout that had been something like 6 months on yeast and not stored at low temps (we're talking Arizona garage floor temps - right Mark ?). The head and flavor were very good, and there was a flavor note that I would call 'nut-like' that might be attributed to the yeast. The yeast mass was a nice bright beige, not the brown-orange associated with decaying yeast. >From what I read autolysis is not an immediate consequence of yeast death, and a large number of factors play in it's course - temp, ions, pH and of course yeast variety and health. If I were sensing meaty sulfury notes and loss of head in a beer after 3 weeks on yeast, then I too would practice the methods George mentions. The reasons why I am not and George is might be our sensitivity to this type of flaw, or might be due to the relative state of the yeast mass, ions, etc we get at EOF. I know from private email some others well known HBDers often lets their beers sit on yeast for extra weeks as do I - from laziness, or lack of time. I doubt they'd do this (nor would I) if we perceived a definite flavor problem. I sometimes let mine sit 6-8 weeks from pitching - tho' always at cool (~55F) temps. I am not denying George's experience - just saying it isn't what I see under my brewing conditions, using my nose and tongue for observation. Anyone else care to comment on whether they do or do-not detect flavor problems from keeping beer on yeast beyond 3 weeks ? Do you use a secondary fermentor regularly George to help prevent this ? Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:27:09 -0700 (MST) From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU> Subject: using gelatin while dry hopping I have not tried using finings (gelatin or isinglass) before and I wanted to try using some gelatin in an IPA that's in the primary fermenter. From what I've seen by searching the HBD, one should dissolve a packet of unflavored Knox gelatin into some boiled water and then pour that into your secondary fermenter a day or two before bottling. However, I will be dryhopping this beer in the secondary for at least one week prior to bottling by sprinkling whole leaf hops into the secondary fermenter. Will my beer clear if I add the gelatin before the hops and then let the beer sit for a week? How do most people out there use gelatin while dry hopping? Any thoughts on using isinglass vs. gelatin? I understand isinglass must be used while controlling temperature and pH but some, such as Dave Miller, claim isinglass is fantastic vs. gelatin (though gelatin seems very easy to use). I'm not big on making my beer crystal clear but I am beginning to enter beers into competitions and want to find some easy ways to improve beer clarity. Thanks in advance, Adam Holmes Fort Collins, CO Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:43:20 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer. It's getting boring in here!!! For all you math whizzes I have a problem for you. It is a heat exchanger for a HERMS type system. I played with it and messed with it until I realized that I hated the stupid equation in college and still have a poor understanding of how it works. Can I get some help, it exceeds my math abilities and I thought you brewers might find it interresting. A 10 foot coil is submerged in a tank of 180 degree F. water. The coil is 1/2 inch ID with a 1/16 inch wall thickness (5/8 inch OD). Water is moving through the coil is at a volume of 6.8 gallons per minute(yep, 1/25hp pump). The total volume of water at start is 2.5 gallons and the starting temperature is 120 degrees F. Assume that the tank water remains constant at 180 F. and is in constant motion (non-static). Assume no heat losses in connecting lines. How long does it take to raise the water temperature 20 degrees and what is the temperature coil output side at the beginning and end of the rise. How long does it take if the starting temperature is 130 F. Repeat for a 15ft and 20 ft coil. My biggest problem is the fact that the OD and ID walls have different areas and setting the equality is causing me problems. I've only done this equation for flat surface areas like glass and walls and like I said, I hated it then. So you don't have to work as hard, here's two equations. If you know better, fine, I'm an idiot. Active Q=ke^(a X delta T) and Passive Q=(k a ((th - tc)time)/d Where: Q the heat conducted through the Material--- k is the thermal conductivity--- A is the area of the material--- th is the hot side temperature--- tc is the cold side temperature--- time is Uh DUH.... time---- d is the thickness of the material---- e is the natural log---- I have no idea what X stands for in the exponent k for copper is 400 J-m/(sec)(m^2)(Degrees C.) or 2476 BTU-in/(ft^2)(hr)(degree F.)-------- k for water is .6 J-m/(sec)(m^2)(Degrees C.) or 4.14 BTU-in/(ft^2)(hr)(degree F.)--------- Converted to square inches ( I hope this is right) k for copper is 17.187 BTU-in/(in^2)(min)(degreeF.) and the same value of k for water is .02875 BTU-in/(in^2)(min)(degreeF.) I'll even give you some data. The volume of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is .01636 cu. in. The ID area of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is .0981 sq ft The OD area of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is .1962 sq ft. There is 231 cu in in a gallon of water. If that's too easy, try wort at 1.052 SG. I have no idea what the k for that is. It would be nice to have this data in the archive. PLEEEEEEEZE!!!! Any takers. I have a rough idea of the outcome but frankly, I'm lost. You can send it to me and I'll tell you why I need it or you can post it to the HBD. Please copy me on HBD posts. Thanks. Rod Prather. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:44:15 -0500 From: "Tim Green" <timgreen at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Maximum Alcohol One more note of maximum alcohol levels in fermented beverages, Wyeast sells a yeast they call Eau de Vie (water of life) #3347. They sell it for starting stuck fermentations and the production of single-malt beverages. They claim the alcohol tolerance of the yeast is 21%. I currently have a mead in progress using this yeast. It has currently gone completely dry in flavor twice using up a total of 24# of honey. I fed again last night with another 5# of honey and it is happily bubbling away again. I am trying to make a sweet honey cordial style beverage and I have high hopes! Tim Green Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:05:14 +1000 From: hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp (Mutsuo Hoshido) Subject: Sake brewery one day brewing job experience It is now sake brewing season in Japan. Small sake brewers without modern air conditioners condust their sake brewing only during winter, from November to mid March. Some of the sake brewers are very kind to invite sake lovers to their plant tour including sake tasting. I could find a very small hand made sake brewer which let us give a chance to actually conduct a brewing job together with the president who is now also a brewmaster. It took almost 9 hours from 9:00 to 18:00 with lunch break. It costs only 3000yen including lunch and 1.8L sake souvenir, wich will be later sent to our home after bottling the result of our job. Matsuo sake brewing company Ltd. is the name of the plant. Mr.Mitomo Matsubara is the president and brewmaster. Address is 180 Fujiokaotsu Fujioka-shi Gunnm-ken Japan Phone +81-274-22-0022 Fax +81-274-24-0544 He has only three stuffs there. Around 18 klitters production amount. He let us spread steam cooked about 200kg rice on a big hemp cloth put on a big bamboo thin container to cool down directly by our hands. After that he let us cary the around 28deg C cooled rice into Koji growing room which is controlled about 40deg C,very hot. We pitch dry koji-kin or koji-fungi on the rice in the koji-fermenter. We also remove and cool down the already prepared very beautiful sake koji ,which were set previou day,on the other hemp cloth put on the other bamboo thin container. We experienced very strictly time controlled rice washing and soaking to give a acculate amount of water content in the rice. We also conducted fermenter stiring and watched the sample measuring process. After a day rather hard job, we could enjoy all kinds of sake he produced there. Our members were four homebrewers and two sake lovers. We could get a lot of very fruitful information for home brewing. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:40:55 -0500 From: Marc Hering <mhering at acd-pc.com> Subject: odor in beer? Greetings Homebrew gurus, I am having a bit of a wierd problem that noone I have asked can seem to figure out, my last batch was a strawberry ale (kind of a mishmash brew,,,mostly using up things I had left over) and while it tastes just fine, (hint of strawberry but not too overpowering) it has a really bad odor.I used Dextrine malt and 2 row barley. Light Drymalt Extract, Cascade and Saaz Hops. I threw 6 lbs of fresh strawberrys into my secondary fermenter (after heating them to 150 for about 10 min or so then letting them cool down) and I used about a cup and a half of dry malt extract instead of botteling sugar. I am still trying to learn and I will admit that there are things that I probably should know but don't. Can anyone point me in the right direction? or at least tell me what I did wrong? Thanks in advance!! Marc ******************************************* MURPHY's LAW ON THE WORLD "The sum of the intelligence of the planet is constant; the population is growing." ******************************************* Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:47:47 -0800 (PST) From: Kirk Ramsay <kramsa41 at yahoo.com> Subject: Scrapyard Jewels I have had the good fortune to have gained access to a GREAT scrapyard full of nice LARGE SS vessels. Some of these are large enough for me to stand in. I can get them for the price of scrap ($.75/lb). The problem I see is that I don't know the "history" (ie: Chemical use) of these. They are spotlessly clean, and have drains and fittings attached. I would say they were in a lab as opposed to an industrial area. My question is this, can these be rendered "safe" to use in the brewing process without knowing what they were used for. Thanks, Kirk _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:06:09 -0500 From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com> Subject: Yeast Development > >From: asmith at apollo.org (Andrew Smith) > >Now, homebrewers, brewpubs and microbreweries use these strains which are > >commercially available for their own brews. My question is: do many > >microbreweries select develop these yeasts so that they end up with what > is > >their own proprietary yeast? How do they do it? Have any homebrewers done > >this? I would guess that it's a very skilled area, but there's quite an > >appeal in a yeast that you've adapted yourself to give good results in > your > >own brewing equipment and with the types of beers that you brew. > > > >Any comments on this? > > Andrew, > > I am not aware of any micros or brew pubs who are "developing" their own > yeast. Which is not to say that none do, just that it isn't very > prevalent. All of the yeast that I have seen that is commercially > available (to homebrewers, at least) is obtained from one of those > traditional brewers to which the particular style is well known. I would > guess that it is not practical for small breweries to develop their own > strain due to cost considerations. Many just don't have the resources or > expertise. I'm sure that only the largest would find that the expense is > justified by the distinction of being the only brewery using strain XYZ. > The yeast used by numerous popular micros is known to be the same strain > obtained from one of the traditional breweries and sold by Wyeast or one > of the other yeast merchants. Some breweries consider this proprietary > information, but some are very open with it. > > From my understanding (questionable data alert....) yeast being a living > organism is not trademark-able. So, any one who gets a sample from said > brewery is able to reproduce it and sell it. Now I suppose that one would > get in trouble legally if you attempted to sell "Sierra Nevada's yeast", > named as such. So, what we see is "Chico" or American Ale yeast. You can > typically find pedigree type information that enables you to decide if the > yeast you want to buy is going to give characteristics similar to the > style or clone you want to make, and most often you the original source is > available, if not directly from the company selling the yeast. A number > of yeast databases are around that tell you all you need to know. IMHO, > there are enough different yeasts available cheaply that it is not worth > it to develop your own. That is unless you just want to do it for your > own enjoyment. > > I'm sure that there's a lot more to be said on the subject, but this is a > start. > > Scott > Brewing in Columbia, SC > Return to table of contents
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