HOMEBREW Digest #3011 Thu 22 April 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Big Brew Chat (pbabcock)
  Nitrogen head (BrewInfo)
  RE: imploding kegs (John Wilkinson)
  caustic & CO2 (Bryan Gros)
  Invitation to Join Homebrew Club ("30hollywood")
  Plastic Conical (Troy Hager)
  astringency (BrewInfo)
  Gott mashing setup (Pete Diltz)
  re: Hop Oil & dead Sea Monkeys(tm) ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Storage of Iodophor solution ("C.D. Pritchard")
  The Latest BT : Is it just me? (and "Free Beer") (Alan McKay)
  Stout Dinners (hwarrick)
  Chimay yeast & banana esters... (John S Thompson)
  Bad science (James_E_Pearce)
  Sweet stouts (BrewInfo)
  Carbon Dioxide Purge (Tom Clark)
  forced CO2 contaminating? ("Brook Raymond")
  Re: Tim Webb's book (Kari Likovuori)
  RE: Hop Oil as a preservative? ("Nigel Porter")
  RE: Over carbonation = acidity? ("Nigel Porter")
  Hop substitutes (andrew.ryan-smith)
  RE: Hops Rhizomes available? ("Kelly")
  Re: Over carbonation = acidity? (Matthew Comstock)
  Re: Hop oil as a preservative ("Charles T. Major")
  Chat Room on IRC (msnet)
  sanitizing, CO2 (Bryan Gros)
  Try Stale Hops (Ted McIrvine)
  Re:  btu's on a 55 gallon drum / Brew Rat Chat (Big Brew) (Scott Abene)
  Recipes/Deep Thoughts (Eric.Fouch)

Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier! Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99. Details on the HBD Competition Calendar for June 1999 (http://hbd.org). 2000 MCAB qualifier! Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow" Back issues are available via: HTML from... http://hbd.org Anonymous ftp from... ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer. COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...) JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> Subject: Big Brew Chat Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Along with other chats being offered up, hbd.org/chat will be available for this event... See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:46:32 -0500 (CDT) From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com> Subject: Nitrogen head Dave writes: >Not quite right, Steve, or at least mis-leading to some extent. >To produce a Guiness type head it is necessary to provide >agitation to the beer in the presence of air or nitrogen gas >( via a sparkler plate, e.g.)such that you cause "breakout" >of the CO2 and yield bubbles which contain both CO2 and >nitrogen or air. The latter gases are less soluble in the beer >than CO2 and therefore, as long as the bubble wall is stable, >these gases will stay inside. This gives an extremely long >lasting foam. Things that provide a stable cell wall are >surfactants like water soluble proteins and other long chain >water soluble organic solids. With a pure CO2 bubble, even >with a stable bubble wall, diffusion of the soluble gas through >the wall leads to an early demise of the foam. I hope I'm not repeating myself -- this sounds very familiar. I'm not so sure this is right... if this were true, then wouldn't the bubbles simply shrink away? As I watch the head of a beer fade, it seems that each individual bubble is popping, not shrinking. Therefore, I don't see how the gas that is inside the bubble should make a difference in how long the bubbles last. Also, handpumped, cask-conditioned ales have no nitrogen associated with the dispense. In the north of England, where swan necks are common and sparklers are used, the ale comes out of the pump looking like cream and has a cascade just like Draught Guinness. When the cascade is over, a tight, creamy head is formed over a *relatively* uncarbonated pint of ale. No nitrogen was used in the dispense... in fact, the proper way to use one of these pumps is to put the glass up so the sparkler is at the bottom of the glass and is thus almost immediately submerged by the ale. So much for the notion that some atmospheric nitrogen had something to do with the head. By the way, the heads on these "Northern Pour" beers are very fine-bubbled and long-lasting. Personally, I feel that the creamy head in Guinness is due to the flaked barley and that the nitrogen is used simply as a propellant. I've posted many times before how 75/25% N2/CO2 at 40psi looks to the beer like 30psi of nitrogen (virtually insoluble) and 10psi of CO2, but is forced out of the faucet as if there were 40psi of CO2 behind the beer... Which reminds me, how is it that the nitrogen ever made it to the faucet? Consider this: 25% CO2 + 75% N2 -> =========\\ || || //=========== -> beer out || || ------||-||------- | || | | N2 || | | + || | | CO2 || | | || | |~~~~~~~~||~~~~~~| | || | | beer || | | + || | | dis- || | |solved || | | gasses || | | || | | || | ------------------ Now, since N2 is virtually insoluble in the beer, then the "dissolved gasses" in the beer are really virtually 100% CO2. I don't see how the N2 can make it to the faucet until the keg is empty. Right? Al. Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL korz at brewinfo.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:47:03 -0500 From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: RE: imploding kegs I thought I would comment about the imploding keg theory of George DePiro. I have frequently filled kegs with near boiling water, transfered the hot water with CO2 to another keg, and cooled the now empty, CO2 filled keg to be filled from a lagered keg of beer. Neither keg has ever shown any sign of stress. They have held the resulting low pressure although I can't say some air hasn't leaked in. I do know that the cooled, empty keg will draw in beer for a while from the keg full of beer before CO2 need be applied to the keg of beer. I will, in the future, make sure there is ample CO2 in the empty keg just in case some air might leak in. I doubt it could be enough to matter, though. As far as the full keg imploding, I don't think the water will shrink enough on cooling and there is not enough air/CO2 space to cause much of a problem on cooling. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:34:48 -0700 From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com> Subject: caustic & CO2 George deP wrote: >Never put caustic into a sealed tank that contains a >carbon dioxide (CO2) atmosphere. The caustic *will* >(not "can," but "will") react with the gaseous CO2 to >form solid sodium carbonate. "Big deal" you may say. >It is when you consider that solids take up much less >space than gasses. > >Yes, you can implode a rather expensive fermentor >with this trick; the vacuum relief valve won't allow >enough flow to prevent disaster. No, I have not >done this! I haven't done this either, but I've seen the results in a serving tank at a nameless brewpub. Quite impressive, unless you're the one paying to replace the tank. ******* To Al and Jeremy and whomever has experimented with O2 absorbing caps. Was there no difference because there was no evident oxidation in the bottles? Or did you try to oxidize some bottles and got equal oxidation with O2 and non-O2 caps? - Bryan Bryan Gros Oakland CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:54 -0400 From: "30hollywood" <30hollywood at email.msn.com> Subject: Invitation to Join Homebrew Club Are you a Long Island Homebrewer interested in joining a Homebrew Club? L.I.F.E. may be the club for you! We are a bunch of local homebrewers (Queens, Nassau) who meet monthly at a local brewpub to discuss and evaluate beer (and sometimes other beverages). Each month a speaker discusses a topic of interest and samples are evaluated. There are several BJCP judges in the club and homebrews are regularly evaluated. If this sounds interesting to you, contact ESammy 30hollywood at msn.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:38:26 -0700 From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us> Subject: Plastic Conical HBDers, I have recently gone to 10 gal. batches so would like to sell my 5.5 gal plastic fermenter for a very reasonable price. I have used it for over a year doing 5 gal. batches and it works great. I have taken extremely good care of it and never even thought of putting something in it that might scratch it. It is very easy to clean and allows you to harvest and reuse your yeast! Anyone interested email me privately. -Troy Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:40:12 -0500 (CDT) From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com> Subject: astringency Laurel writes: >astringent - sulfates - calcium sulfate I must disagree most strongly! Calcium sulphate (aka gypsum) is *NOT* astringent! Sulphates are not astringent! Others have posted that sulphates are bitter. They aren't bitter either. Very slightly salty... that's about it. Taste it for yourself. I have. To get a feel for astringency (clearly, based on dozens of scoresheets on my beers that I have gotten back from competitions, the most misunderstood and misdiagnosed fault in beer), peel a dozen grapes. Feed the peeled grapes to your SO and you eat the skins... all at once. *THAT'S* astringency! While it may be difficult to get enough polyphenols from grape skins to doctor a beer, you can go to a winemaking supply shop and buy some "grape tannin." I don't know how much you would need to add to a beer to get a reasonable level of astringency, but I'm sure you can figure it out by trial-and-error. Please, please, let's put this "sulphate == astringency" fallacy to rest, once and for all!!! While we're at it, let's also kill the other great fallacy: "dark grains == astringency." Ironically, dark grains lower pH and make it *MORE DIFFICULT* to extract the astringent polyphenols from the mash! Incidentally, polyphenols are called "tannins" in lay terms because they were (are) used to tan hides. Al. Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL korz at brewinfo.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:24:01 -0500 From: Pete Diltz <pdiltz at plutonium.net> Subject: Gott mashing setup I want to publicly thank Dave Mercer for his informative post re:Gott manifolds on March 12, and for patiently answering my questions. I have had a couple of near disasters with my 3/8" spiral copper manifold, (-no- flow at all); Dave's post came just in time. My construction was very similar, 1/2" rigid copper tubing, sweat fittings(friction fit, no solder), same shape and pattern. Last week it worked like a champ, lautering 24 lbs in a 10 gallon circular Gott, yielding 5 gallons each of 1.112 barleywine and 1.028 small beer. Thanks, Dave! Pete Diltz Trial & Error Brewery (Halfway between AlK and Jethro, more or less) Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:54:45 From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net> Subject: re: Hop Oil & dead Sea Monkeys(tm) Al (Al's such a good HBD contributor, no last name should be needed!) posted about HopTech East Kent Goldings Hop Oil not contributing any aroma to a IPA at recommended doasge. I recently bought some of the British Blend variety and just tried it in a glass of an APA. Had the same results Al did. A sniff of the open bottle's top tells me the reason it doesn't contribute much aroma. Even a steeped and cooled hop tea adds much more aroma than the stuff, is considerably cheaper and doesn't form what AL termed as dead Sea Monkeys(tm). I also tried the floral flavor late hop essence that's susposed to add hop flavor. Like the oil, I had to alot (haven't calculated with 4 drops in the 4 oz. of APA is, but, I'm sure it's more than the 50 ppb recommended). It also tasted like no hop I'd ever tasted before. Maybe that's what "floral" means? Rather than risk dead Sea Monkeys(tm) in my septic tank if I pour the stuff down the drain, I'm going to add them to the garlic potion I spray on fruit trees for combating/pissing off Japanese beetles. Since the stuff yields very little smell or taste, the best I can hope for is that the beetles are adverse to dead Sea Monkeys(tm). >I guess it's better than if it looked like *live* Sea Monkeys ;^). If the hop oil actually did that, the entertainment value might make the waste of money less painful. <ironic grin> c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net web site: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:01:03 From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net> Subject: Storage of Iodophor solution JPullum127 at aol.com posted: >how long will iodophor diluted to 12.5ppm and stored in an airtight bucket >stay potent? Don't know for sure about plastic buckets, but no longer than a week or two in a plastic 5 gal. cubetainer before it looses most of it's amber color. Tightly stoppered, the stuff lasts a very long time in a glass container. I store it between uses in a 5 gal. glass carboy and keep it topped up water and iodophor. In the last couple of years/12 or so brews. I've used about 1/3 of the 1 L bottle. BTW, the vapor will corrode a typical rubber stopper, so wrap the stopper in plastic liberated from a sandwich bag. c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net web site: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:11:22 -0400 From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com> Subject: The Latest BT : Is it just me? (and "Free Beer") Hmmm, Just got the latest BT today, took a quick buzz through it as I always do just to see what's in it this time around, and suddenly I'm at the end of it. And the worst part is I couldn't think of any article I really wanted to go back and read. (No offense to Louis and the HBD crowd). Have my tastes just changed, or was there not much in this month's issue? Is it getting thinner? All my old issues are packed up (moving Saturday) so I can't compare. cheers, -Alan p.s. Yes, this is a subjective question (hint for science types;-) p.p.s. cross-posted to HBD and r.c.b. p.p.p.s. free beer and BBQ for anyone who wants to help me move Email for details - -- "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer" - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:15:18 -0600 From: hwarrick <hwarrick at springnet1.com> Subject: Stout Dinners My wife and I went to a "Irish Rovers " show a few years back and during the dinner before the show they served corned beef like this-1 good corned beef , 1/2 cp. brown sugar patted across the top of the meat, 1 bottle of Guiness poured around the corned beef (not on ) so as to soak into the meat. Add potatoes and carrots latter if you wish. Usually it ends up as finger food coming out of the oven 4-5 hrs later at 375. GOOD FOOD Thanks Hal/Diana Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:25:10 -0500 (CDT) From: John S Thompson <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu> Subject: Chimay yeast & banana esters... After reading the number of interesting posts recently about Wyeast 1214/Chimay yeast and the associated banana esters, I thought I'd relay my experience. I cultured the Chimay yeast from a fairly fresh bottle. I used it to ferment a tripel. After fermentation, there was a very strong banana aroma/flavor, which was surprising to me given that I tried to reduce this aroma/flavor by fermenting pretty cool (like 62F). This aroma/taste was pretty overpowering and I ended up dumping most of the batch. Recently (about a year later) I went through my stock of old beer and found the last bottle. I chilled it and sampled it. The beer was completely different. It was crystal clear, had darkened (reddened) somewhat, and had no noticable banana aroma/taste whatsoever. It was past its prime, but was remarkably batter than the same beer was when it was a month old. Although the recipe was different, the Chimay notes that I like were there: the clove/spicy/plum. I guess the moral of this story is that the 1214/Chimay yeast needs a healthy aging period after bottling. Does anyone else have similar advice? John Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:31:35 +1000 From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au Subject: Bad science There has been some discussion on how some people view the HBD as being very scientific, to the point of being too scientific for some. Here's a counter view: the HBD hardly qualifies as science at all, and what science we do see is often bad science. Good science requires the testing of theories and speculation with experiments. Good science requires an open mind. Good science realizes that correlation does not imply a causal effect -- the difference between observational data and randomized experiments. Bad science attempts to discredit data to fit a theory. Bad science is the broad generalization of a specific result. An example of bad science: the ongoing "debate" between Al K and Dave Burley regarding a test for sugars. An example of good science: the experiment that is now being undertaken by the above mentioned. Regards James Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:32:18 -0500 (CDT) From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com> Subject: Sweet stouts Dave writes: >It appears that Mackeson is, at least >analytically, a sweet stout based on the above table. >I had always assumed that Murphy's ( less so than >Mackeson's) and Mackeson's were sweet stouts >based on my tastebuds. It has obviously been quite some time since you have tried (at least) Murphy's. If you were to set a pint of draught or canned Guinness, a pint of draught or canned Murphy's and a pint of Mackeson's in front of you, I'm 100% confident that you would group the Guinness and Murphy's to be similar and the Mackeson's to be *many* times more sweet. >Even with Guinness, supposedly THE example of >dry stout, the export stout in small bottles varies from the >kegged stout and the Caribbean version is different from >the Dublin version in the sweetness/bitterness ratio. I've posted several times to the HBD (once less than a year ago) that bottled Guinness is a completely different recipe (it's a 1.050 beer, versus 1.042) than the draught and canned version. In the Caribbean, they make a 1.070-ish version which is *very* sweet! These are three different beers, not just a different sweetness/bitterness ratio. What I still don't understand is why you would write more than 100 lines of text when you could have simply written: "Ooops... I was wrong." Just kidding, Dave... I did find the stout recipe guidelines very interesting. Is "Malt Stout" really "Dry Stout" or is it an entirely different style altogether? My books are only 25 miles away and I'm going to be sleeping in the same house with them tonight... the question is: which one of the 700+ boxes (90 boxes full of beer and 45 boxes of empties!) are they in? Al. Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL korz at brewinfo.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:16:54 -0400 From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com> Subject: Carbon Dioxide Purge FWIW- Today, I tried an experiment that worked rather nicely. Perhaps others might like to try it. I began with a very actively fermneting batch of red wine. By using an inverted bucket type air-lock and attaching a piece of surgical tubing to it (removed the bucket), the carbon dioxide being genratewd was diverted into a carboy. However, the carboy was fitted with a cap which has two stems or ports. A piece of tubing was inserted into one of these ports from the inner side and allowed to extend to the bottom of the carboy. The surgical tubing from the the fermenter is attached to the other port. The carboy was sanitized, then filled with clean water clear to the brim. Another piece of tubing is attached to the outside of the port which has the tube inside going to the bottom of the carboy. By lying the carboy on its side, the pressure required to force the water out can be reduced. A small hole cut into the exit tube at its highest point prevents siphoning. In about 3 hours, I had a carboy full of carbon dioxide and all of the water was now in a bucket. I can now use this carboy for racking off a batch of beer or wine or whatever. The same process should work while fermenting beer. By the time your beer is ready to rack the first time, your secondary fermentor will be nicely purged. I reckon the same could be done at bottling time. My primary fermenter is a plastic bucket with lid and grommet. Anyway, It works for me. Tom Clark Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:24:50 -0400 From: "Brook Raymond" <brook at worldnet.att.net> Subject: forced CO2 contaminating? I checked out Brewing Techniques web page and found and interesting article describing an brewing experiment (sorry can't remember the Title at the moment, but I'm sure many of you are aware of this study since the participants were from HBD). Anyway, I poked around with the data and found conclusive evidence that contaminated samples were caused by force carbonation. Perhaps this has already been discussed and I am re-iterating old news, I'm not sure. About half of the naturally carbonated samples were contaminated, but all of the forced carbonated samples were contaminated. I think this suggests that the CO2 cylinders might be contaminated. Perhaps a ultrafine filter is on order. Brook Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:10:08 +0000 (EEST) From: Kari Likovuori <likovuor at clinet.fi> Subject: Re: Tim Webb's book Al Korzonas writes: >Bill writes: >>To read more about these styles, check out Tim Webb's excellent book >>about the Beers of Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, put out by CAMRA, >>which is now available in the US. > >I have to disagree with your assessment of this book. I had it in hand >during my last trip to Belgium. There are several editions, but the >one I had at the time was only several months old. MANY of the cafes >listed were closed or had changed ownership (and now only sold Jupiler!) >or housed Middleeastern restaurants. Hours or operation were often >wrong and things like "tours first saturday of every month" were also >incorrect and outdated! If you do get the book, CALL AHEAD and get the >correct information. Belgian beer cafes are famous of their unpredictable opening times especially in summertime. Any guide will be outdated in six months and that is why I take A Selective Guide To Brussels Bars (and beyond) by Stephen D'Arcy to be the most up to date and reliable guide available. Tim Webb's book is the second best because it's informative brewery and beer notes (with an attitude). Third book that is a must during a vist in Belgium is Peter Crombecq's Bierjaaboek 1995-1996, although it is outdated it contains so much backlog information of beers and breweries from the last 10 years. And yes, the final word CALL AHEAD if you want to be sure. >Personally, I would rather trust Peter Crombecq's website: >http://www.dma.be/p/bier/beer.htm Also that page is outdated but has couple of years worth of updates to the printed Beerjaarboek. And of course every serious beer traveller has that database imported to their Psion 5 :-). You might also consider the book The Beers of Wallonia: Belgium's Best Kept Secret by John Woods & Keith Rigley. The best book about Wallonian breweries. If you happen to have any knowledge of finnish language, check out one of the best beer site of Belgian beer culture: The uncompromising beer buff's guide to Belgium (http://beer.tcm.hut.fi/Ankara/Belgia/) Cheers, -=Kari=- - -- mailto:Kari.Likovuori at clinet.fi http://beer.tcm.hut.fi/Likovuori/ .~~. ** The Finnish League of Independent Beer Societies (FINNLIBS) ** |--|] ** Finnish Homebrewers' Association ** |__| ** Finnish Society for Traditional Beers ** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:15:40 +0100 From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: RE: Hop Oil as a preservative? You could always use a very small amount of low alpha hops, which should produce barely discernible hop character. How about just making it without hops at all? If it could be done 500 years ago, I'm sure that it can be done now. Unless you are planning on storing the ale in less than ideal conditions for long periods, I cannot imagine any problems. I also believe that some of these old ales were quite sour affairs, so lack of hops may be an advantage. Other (old English type) herb additions could also help, instead of the hops. Nigel P.S. I'm no expert in old English ales, this is just info I have gleaned from some of my books. >Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:47:45 -0700 >From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> >Subject: Hop Oil as a preservative? > >Greetings and Salutations.. > >You know, getting behind on HBD has a sort of snowball effect.. you can >never seem to catch up.. :) > >My question is this.. I work a lot on recreating Pre-1600 beers and ales. >How can I get the benefit of Hops without the Flavor? (why??!?! you shout? >calm down, let me explain) In many cases prior to 1500 the English did not >use hops in ALE (beer was the term for when you added hops, and came from >the Dutch), and I wan to make a couple to see how they taste. I want to >avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the >preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? Like hop oil? in minor >amounts? other ideas? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:24:13 +0100 From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: RE: Over carbonation = acidity? I've read somewhere that CO2 dissolved in beer (or any liquid?) causes carbonic acid to be produced. This could explain your acidic taste. If it is produced when CO2 is dissolved in any liquid, would this be the primary taste that you get in soda water? Nigel >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:09:16 +1000 >From: "Colin Marshall" <byoah at argay.com.au> >Subject: Over carbonation = acidity? > >A kit brew that I did in August '97, with Wyeast #2278, ended very much >over gassed, probably as a result of being bottled too early. Although the >beer was drinkable, it tasted quite acidic - not vinegary. I drank it but >didn't really enjoy it. Recently, 6 stubbies (375 ml bottles) surfaced from >the back of a cupboard. The first one I drank (not surprisingly) had the >same faults. So I degassed them for an hour, recapped them and stuck 'em in >the fridge. Several days later I shared them with some mates, and the >unanimous appraisal was that they were the finest home brewed beers any of >the lads had ever tasted. The beer seemed to be soooooo smooooth, compared >to its previous character. My question (thank you for your patience) is >this: did the overabundance of CO2 in the beer cause the excessive acidity >we first tasted? Does this acid have a name? >Colin Marshall. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:54:31 +0100 From: andrew.ryan-smith at ind.alstom.com Subject: Hop substitutes Rod Prather mentions UK hop substitutes " . . . Those he mentioned are spruce, broom, rowan (?) and myrica. . . ." Spruce you already know about. Broom is an evergreen shrub (ie doesn't lose its "leaves" in winter), growing to about 5 or 6 feet high. It doesn't so much have leaves in the conventional sense as long spindly fairly solid "shoots" about 10 inches long. In spring (ie about now for us the middle of the UK) it has lots of little yellow flowers. Rowan is also called mountain ash (sorbus aucupuria), and grows into a small tree. From memory, the leaves are narrow and about an inch long, with say 5 or 6 sprouting off each side of a soft stem. It produces bunches of bright orange berries in autumn. Myrica I'm not sure about, but could be bog myrtle, something which I remember used to be added to beers, although I've not seen any. Something else that used to be added to English beers was alecost (also called costmary, or bible leaf), which, according to my herb book, grows wild in mid and east coast USA (a bit of a sweeping statement, I know) HTH Cheers Rhyno Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:44:36 -0500 From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> Subject: RE: Hops Rhizomes available? I got mine at: http://www.freshops.com/rhizinfo.html HTH, Kelly New Orleans, La... Original message------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:57:21 +0100 From: Mark Warrington <mark.s.warrington at usa.dupont.com> Subject: Hop Rhizomes available? Hi all, I moved in Nov. 98 and transplanted my three year old hop roots to my new abode and replanted them at that time. They don't seem to have survived the winter. Does anyone know who still has rhizomes available at this time of the year? Mark "Life is what happens.... ....While you're out making other plans" John Lennon Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:03:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Over carbonation = acidity? Greetings <Chemgeek alert> When CO2 dissolves in water at 25C it is partly hydrated by H2O to carbonic acid, H2CO3 (or (HO)2CO). For the equilibrium H2CO3 <-> CO2 + H2O, K = [CO2]/[H2CO3] = ca. 600. Which means CO2 would rather be CO2, than H2CO3. From a table in 'Chemistry of the Elements', Greenwood and Earnshaw, 1984, p. 54, the pKa of carbonic acid is 3.9, but corrected for the fact that only 0.4% of dissolved CO2 in in the form of carbonic acid, the conventional value is pKa = 6.5. For comparison, the pKa of acetic acid is, pKa = 4.75. Using the 'conventional' value of pKa = 6.5, carbonic acid is a weaker acid than acetic. However, at higher pressures of CO2 the equilibrium would be shifted toward H2CO3 and acidity would increase. Keggers must have a better knowledge of the effects of PCO2 on the flavor of beer, but fizzy beer always tastes different than flat beer to me. Matt in Cincinnati _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:47:32 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu> Subject: Re: Hop oil as a preservative Badger asks about attaining preservative qualities like those we get from hops, but without the hops. I talked with John Cater, owner of a microbrewery here in Birmingham, who said that rosemary had many of the same antibacterial qualities of hops. He has studied microbiology, I believe at UC Davis, though I don't know the source of his comment. The conversation was in the context of a 14th century English mead and metheglyn recipe that called for rosemary, among other herbs, and he noted that the rosemary would have provided some preservative qualities. Another preservative common in the Middle Ages was alcohol. Ales tended to be stronger than beers are today, and the alcohol helped keep bacterial infection at bay. That said, I've got to quibble with Badger's assertion that hops were unknown in England before the Dutch introduced them in beer. Hops are mentioned in England as early as the 10th century in Bald's Leechbook. Though they were not the brewing staple they are today, they were known in England and likely found their way into the occasional brew along with the various other herbs that formed the gruit. Additionally, beer is not a Dutch loan word, but rather a native Germanic one used interchangably with ale in some of the earliest Old English texts. The distinction between ale (hopless) and beer (hopped) is a late distinction, after the Dutch began importing weaker, hopped beer. At this point the English became opposed to hops in beer, not because of the hops themselves, but because of the weaker beer they allowed the Dutch to brew. Tidmarsh Major Birmingham, Alabama Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:40:48 -0700 From: msnet at pacbell.net Subject: Chat Room on IRC Hi All, I have a chat channel set up on the dalnet IRC network called #HomeBrew. My nickname on IRC is s2j. I also have a bot (scripted channel protector) which protects the channel from advertisers and spammers, his nick name is |Vampire|. I have offered the channel to help in Big Brew 99. IRC is accessible by all who have a connection to the net. You don't need a 32bit Java capable browser to access IRC but you do need a client application. The application I recommend for windows 3.X, 95, and 98 is called mIRC. (home page http://www.mirc.co.uk ) mIRC is shareware and free for download. Mac and Linux/UNIX users can also access IRC but I do not know about those systems and suggest you follow the links at the end of this post. Some links for help on IRC http://www.mirc.co.uk/ http://www.dalnet.com/ http://www.mircx.com/ I will help any one who needs it. Just send me mail and I will help as much as I can. Fritz Waltjen, AKA s2j Van Nuys California Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:13:22 -0700 From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com> Subject: sanitizing, CO2 Lord Badger writes: >... In many cases prior to 1500 the English did not >use hops in ALE (beer was the term for when you added hops, and came from >the Dutch), and I wan to make a couple to see how they taste. I want to >avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the >preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? Like hop oil? in minor >amounts? other ideas? How about iodophor? I mean, if you don't want your beer to spoil, then keep things clean and sanitized. I'm sure hops were recognized as a preservative back when people had no idea about bacteria and sanitization. Your beer won't spoil simply because there are no hops. ******* Colin Marshall asks: >A kit brew that I did in August '97, with Wyeast #2278, ended very much >over gassed, probably as a result of being bottled too early. Although the >beer was drinkable, it tasted quite acidic - not vinegary. >... My question (thank you for your patience) is >this: did the overabundance of CO2 in the beer cause the excessive acidity >we first tasted? Does this acid have a name? Yes, CO2 is acidic. Acutally, when it dissolves in water, it forms a weak acid called carbonic acid. Incidentally, this tartness is appropriate in some styles. Bavarian Weizen comes to mind. It often has a slight tartness from high carbonation levels. ******* Thanks to Rod Prather for sharing his contact with a Scottish beer historian regarding the lack of peat used to malt barley for beer in Scotland. For my tastes, I think that a subtle smokiness would complement the rich malt flavors of a wee heavy if it could be achieved. Unfortunately, I've never found the peat smoked malt to leave a subtle flavor. It is always harsh in the beers I've tried. Maybe others have had better luck. - Bryan Bryan Gros Oakland CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:17:05 -0700 From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Try Stale Hops I brew a lot of lambics and an ocassional Berliner-style Weisse. Many years ago I bought a couple of pounds of Saaz and Goldings whole hops and deliberately left them in a bag in a closet. Whenever I brew a lactic-style beer in which I want the preservative effects of hops without the aroma or flavor, I use stale hops; often as many as four ounces. These ales lager for a long time, and I've avoided getting the wrong bugs in my ales while having no hop taste or smell. Cheers Ted > From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> > Subject: Hop Oil as a preservative? > > My question is this.. I work a lot on recreating Pre-1600 beers and ales. > How can I get the benefit of Hops without the Flavor? <snip> I want to > avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the > preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? other ideas? > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Brander Roullett aka Badger > Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger > In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: btu's on a 55 gallon drum / Brew Rat Chat (Big Brew) Hiya, First of all why would any sane Homebrewer ever want to convert 55 gallon drums into a brewing system is beyond me. So here is what I do (Note I am not giving a formula but practical experience from what I have done): I usually Fill my HLT the night before and fill my Mash/Lauter Tun with the correct amount of water also. This helps the water reach at least room temp before I apply any heat. I begin heating my HLT and Mash Tun in the morning while I begin to get the grain bill together. I also use 170,000 BTU Brinkman burners; my poor little CampChef (38,000 BTU) burners just can not handle a full boil and really drag as far as getting up to temp is concerned. I really would not even attempt to boil wort in a 55 gallon drum with anything under a 120,000 BTU burner. The 38,000 BTU CampChef seems to really fart out around 18-22 gallons. By the time I get the 80-100 pounds of grain ground my strike water is usually right up to the temp I need. Someone mentioned making sure that the burner is on cement. That is a great point. You should also keep in mind that CampChef says that their burners are only rated to hold about 179 pounds. Keep that in mind and NEVER PUT A FULL 55 GALLON DRUM ON YOUR BURNER FOR SUPPORT. At 8.3 pounds a gallon (roughly) and the weight of the drum itself that is suicide. I am currently using cinder blocks as stands until I build the damn thing into a permenant home in my basement with natural gas and steam hood. As far as mash temps. I have had little or no trouble holding a steady mash temp as long as my grain bill is over 70 pounds. The more grain and surface area inside the drum that is filled the better the thermal mass I get (makes sense I guess). If anyone is interested I have scattered pics on my site of the 55 and its mash screen and stuffs: http://skotrat.dynip.com/skot/equipment May I ask what you guys are using as chillers? How do you achieve a quick chill time with a 40-50 gallon batch? Also, What are you fermenting in? ********************************************** Now, about the Brew Rat Chat being used for Big Brew. I have not heard back from Brian at the AOB as of yet. I would love to do it. I think that the Brew Rat Chat would be a fine place to have it and I would feel truly happy to host it there. The chat also allows you to post standard .GIF and .JPG images on the fly if they have been uploaded to the web. So it could be visual also. Hell If you have a WebCam I will even post a link to it if you would like. Looking forward to hearing Brian's comments on the matter and anyone elses for that matter. Guys like Brian are trying to make the AHA/AOB work and Big Brew is proof. Hell even I can't find anything to bitch about on this one. C'ya! -Scott "2 more days.... 2 more days..." === ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net> http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) "This Space Currently for Rent... Inquire within" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:32:00 -0400 From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com Subject: Recipes/Deep Thoughts HBD- With all the talk about recipes, Fred has strapped on his "Kiss The Male Prostitute" apron and headed for the kitchen. Looking at the Bent Dick CookBook, I see one of my favorite recipes for BBBB Soup: 1# Black Beans (try substituting pearled barley once) 1# Bacon 1 Bottle Beer 1 Ham Bone 12 oz V-8 (or Bloody Mary mix or Clamato Juice) Garlic, to taste Onion to taste Salt to taste Water Soak the beans overnight, or boil 'em for 30 minutes. Drain. Put the beans, the beer (dark, hearty style), the ham bone, the V-8, garlic, and onion into a slow cooker. Top up with water. Cook on high for 2-4 hours, reduce heat and simmer for 4-8 hours. Then fry up the bacon, crumble and add. Salt to taste. Yummy stuff! Last night I tried to brow-beat the wife into adding a beer to the pot roast. She only added half a beer (porter). It was so delicious, she said she'd add a whole beer next time. Good thing she didn't listen to me the first time! A personal note to George De Piro, Al Korzonas, Dave Burley, Dr. Pivo, AJ, Steve, Mr. Gump, the lurking xpurts Dr. P says are out there, tired of defending against textbooks: Don't go away. Don't go changing. Post your thoughts. Quote your texts. Name call if you feel the need. Hell, where's Sammy Mize and NOKOMAREE? It's all good! Well, MOST of it. Eric Fouch Bent Dick YoctoBrewery Kentwood, MI Return to table of contents
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