---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: p-cooking (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Pressure Canning/Hops Source (Eric Schoville)
  Re: Chiller suggestions (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  RE: Immersion cooler coil in corny primary? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Fruit in the bottle - Experiment in Progress (Rod Prather)
  Early hop harvest / drying hops (Jeff Schroeder)
  Put a cork in it ("Tim Burkhart")
  Bouncing new baby brewery ("John Robinson")
  1st/2nd runnings ("Penn, John")
  RE: Cleaning inside of CF wort chillers (John Wilkinson)
  Parti Gyle Brewing and Adelscott (Dan Listermann)
  Best RIM's/HERM's ("scott")
  Honking Bobo's ("Rich, Charles")
  Strange film in carboys ("Alan McKay")
  Strange Blue (jgibbens)
  Adelscott (Ted McIrvine)
  laying up p-decotions ("Charles Rich")
  Question: Use of microwave for Decoction ? (darrell.leavitt)
  Fusarium oxysporum and hops? (Dan Cole)
  fermentability - was mash thickness ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re  50 qt pot (RobertJ)
  Re: Chiller suggestions (David Lamotte)
  Re:brewing on a scale? (Matthew Comstock)
  UV sanitation ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Re: No-sparge revisited (Jeff Renner)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:04:50 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: p-cooking

I have recently purchased a pressure canner and have used it a few times to
can some wort starters, and some distilled water.  It's fun to use, and
seems safe if one is aware of just what to look for, and monitor.  The first
surprise is how little heat is needed.  I always imagined that to p-cook one
would need a roaring torch.  Oh no, it turns out that the higher pressure
keeps the water from boiling away at normal atmospheric pressures, and to
maintain temp and pressure of 15 psi, not much additional heat is needed at
all.  I throttle the burner way back.

What is important to watch is the rocker pressure regulator.  This dude
rocks and steam gently vents out when the conditions are nominal.  The gauge
(Presto 22qt. canner) is real nice, because I know what is going on inside.
If one were to get foam, one would then see and hear a change in the rocking
and venting, the pressure would rise and the gauge would show increased
pressure.  Then you could remove the heat source, cool down and correct the
problem.

Of course, if you leave the area and stop monitoring (not advised by the
manufacturer), sure, now things could become dangerous.  So could you have
an automobile accident if you take a nap while driving, see what I mean.
Common sense should be applied to any situation, paranoia CAN be applied to
any situation.  My wife hates my analogies (probably because it makes the
point so well).

= = = = 
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>

>....The manufacturer of my pressure cooker
>( Fagor) says:

>"Do not cook such foods as apple sauce,
> cranberries,* pearl barley*, *oatmeal* or
>*other cereals*, split peas, noodles,
>macaroni, rhubarb or spaghetti.
>These foods tend to foam, froth and sputter
>and may block the pressure release valve."......

Well of course, they will tell you that.  They know what they are doing.  Do
you really think the lawyers on staff haven't advised them to (in legal
terms) 'use an overabundance of caution'?  The sale is important, but
whether you get to cook your cereals or not,  they do not give a hoot.

>I interpret this to include malt and adjuncts
>in the "pearl barley" or "other cereals"
>classification and to note this is *not*
>recommended by the manufacturer who
>I assume is an expert on this subject.

They are assuming worst case, not monitoring, no covered internal container,
idiots using the device, and other possible situations.

>Frankly, I do not see the need
>to p-cook the mash or hops. If you wish to
>enhance the efficiency of recovery of bittering
>components, hops could perhaps be cooked
>separately from the wort and be done safely,
>especially using the lidded inner vessel Charles
>recommends. I wonder what effect the 
>high temperature has on the hops' aroma?

Gee, is this the same Dave that tells us all to just try it yourself before
you knock it?  

:>)  keep on!!

happpy brewing, happy posting, happy reading

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:07:27 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Pressure Canning/Hops Source

Dave (not Davie) Burley has some serious concerns about
pressure cooking the wort or mash.  While these concerns are
definitely worthwhile, I can say from my experience that I
have not had a problem at all with pressure cooking my
mash.  I, at Charles (not Charlie) Rich's advice, use a 12
qt _lidded_ stockpot as an inner vessel for cooking my mash,
into which I put about 10 qts of decoction.  I have done
several batches of beers like this, and have _never_ noticed
any boilover from the inner vessel into the pressure
cooker.  

FWIW, the first beer that I used this process on, a Muencher
style Helles that is overhopped, is a good beer, but I can't
say that I notice the malt flavors (due to overhopping).  I
have two Oktoberfests lagering right now, one a pressure
cooked decoction, the other a traditional 3 decoction mash. 
I'll report back in a month or so with results.

- ------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone have any recommendations on where to buy
imported hops?  I typically buy hops five or six pounds at a
time, and the idea of paying $20/lb for imported from
Hoptech seems a little high.  Can anyone give me some
feedback?

Thanks!

Eric "Pressure Cookers Kick Ass" Schoville
Flower Mound, TX
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:05:14 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Chiller suggestions

Ted,

I think you will be better advised to start with a new piece of copper.
Getting the old one unwound and stuffed through a garden hose is not an
easy task.  I have made a counterflow using the Phils Phittings that
worked pretty well.  I used a new garden hose and about 35 feet of copper
tube.  The old immersion chiller can then serve as a "prechiller" in a
bucket of ice and water when the tap water gets really warm.

Sanitizing the thing is not that difficult.  While my brew day is still in
the mashing stage, I heat about 5 gallons of water to boiling and let it
run through the chiller.  I cap off the output tube with an alcohol soaked
aluminum foil square until I am ready to run wort through it.  When ready
to chill, I start the cooling water and wort flow until what I get out is
actually wort.  Once finished, I flush the thing with fresh water and then
siphon Iodophor solution through the chiller.  I store it with the
Iodophor inside. Looping the output hose back to the input side
accomplishes this easily.
The hose I use from the boiler to the chiller is the reinforced tubing
with the little threads inbeded in it.  Haven't had a problem so far with
this type of hose.  It is available from your local Home Despot or Lower
Store.

Cheers, Bill Freeman
Birmingham, AL

"Charles T. Major" wrote:

> Birmingham BrewMasters - http://home.earthlink.net/~rletteer/brew.htm
>
> Greetings, all!
>
> Given the long cooling times with my immersion chiller
> and 75F tap water, I'm contemplating moving to a
> counterflow wort chiller (probably using Philchill fittings
> and the copper coil from my immersion chiller).
>
> I'd like some suggestions on cleaning & sanitizing.
> (warning: inconsistent mix of US and metric measures to
> follow) I'm thinking of rigging up a 1-liter soda bottle
> with some 5/16" tubing through the cap to use to flush the
> chiller with a cleaning (1 tbs Electrasol dissolved in 1 L
> hot water) and then sanitizing solution (either Starsan or
> iodophor:
>
>                Wort chiller exit tube (3/8" Cu)
>                          | |
>                         || ||
>                         |   | 5/16" vinyl tubing
>                         |   |
>                       __|   |__
>                      |  |   |  | Bottle cap with 1/4" hole
>                      |__|   |__|
>                      |  |   |  |
>                     /   |   |   \
>                    /    |   |    \
>                   /     |   |     \
>                  /______|___|______\
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |       |   |       |
>                 |___________________|
>         1L Soda bottle with cleaning/sanitizing solution
>
> Squeeze bottle to push solution into chiller; release to
> drain.  Squeeze bottle and plug inlet of wort chiller to
> soak.  Remove plug to drain.  Repeatedly squeeze and
> release bottle to flush. A table in a recent HBD shows that
> 3/8" tubing holds 3/4 oz. per foot, so a 25-ft chiller
> should hold 18 oz., and thus a 1L bottle should have
> plenty of solution to fill and drain a 25-ft chiller (but a
> 50-ft chiller will need a 1.5L bottle).
>
> I've also read of some people who run anywhere from a couple
> of quarts to a gallon of hot wort through the chiller to
> sanitize before turning on the cooling water.  Any comments?
>
> What about storage: dry, or filled with sanitizer?
>
> I'd also like suggestions for the hose from kettle drain
> (EZMasher in my case) to chiller inlet.  I think that the
> vinyl tube I use now to fill my fermenter with cool wort
> won't stand the heat of near-boiling wort going into the
> chiller.
>
> Cheers,
> Ted Major
> Birmingham, Alabama
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:01:28 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Immersion cooler coil in corny primary?

From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>

>...I'm building something less bulky and hopefully more
>efficient: a long, small diameter copper immersion cooling coil inside an
>insulated corny keg primary fermenter.  Cooling water will be pumped from a
>ice water bath through the cooling coil.  Temp. control will be by cycling
>the pump on and off or by varying the pump speed.  

>Has anyone been done this before or have any thoughts on the approach?   
>TIA!...

Yes, somewhat.  I have used a submersible aquarium pump ($25) to circulate
ice water in a small plastic cooler through vinyl tubing into a larger
plastic cooler with the fermenter and water therein.

I used a siphon hose for the return water to the small cooler.  This part is
tricky, fill the entire tube up with water first, then block with your
thumbs and insert into each cooler to eliminate any air bubble, then the
return works great with no further problems.  The tubing needs to be large
enough to handle the volume (3/4 inch in my case) so that it can keep up
with the pump.

I used a homebrew thermostat controller.  It is an ordinary electronic house
AC/Heating wall unit that I removed the thermistor and remoted it through 3
foot of 2 conductor wire.  I inserted it halfway into a foot of small vinyl
tubing, folded the tubing at the center, then tie wrapped the tubing to make
an immersion probe.  I wired the thermostat on top of a small box containing
a 24 volt AC transformer and relay to turn the pump on and off.  I can
digitally set any temperature - works great.

Once last winter, it got too cold, so I removed the ice water and circulated
the water only.  The heat from the immersion pump motor was enough to keep
the fermenter warmed to temp.  I flipped the thermostat to the heat setting.

I haven't tried this but, I was thinking of using a bucket of water inside
the fridge with a circulating coil inside it and placing the pump in the
fermenter bath.  If this worked, it would eliminate the need to feed ice.

One side effect, on a nice night, we left the bedroom window open, and I
could faintly hear the pump cycling on and off, it improved my sleeping, a
nice sound, just like a slow rain makes for a good night!

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:55:42 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Fruit in the bottle - Experiment in Progress

Eric Caldwell Said about oranges


> I've been considering putting a slice of orange in some of
> the bottles and wondering if anyone had experience in using whole fruit
> slices during bottle conditioning.  I'm trying to figure out a) what I
> could expect it to do to the brew, b) what it would do to the orange,
> and c) would the orange stay preserved indefinately (important question
> since it's a barleywine and may be stashed for a period of many many
> moons).
>
That sounds like a really COOL idea, BUT:

>From my experience with wine, full preservation really doesn't take place
until you exceed about 18% alcohol.  Highly preserved wines like Ports and
Sherrys are either fermented or fortified to 18% to 21% alcohol.  Short term
presevation takes place at around 11 to 12% alcohol.  Low alcohol wines of
10% and below are designed to be drank young.  Being aware the hops have a
preservative effect themselves and that you are using a high alcohol
content, you may be OK if the alcohol is actually in the orange.  Just a
suggestion for experimentation, You could preserve the oranges in alcohol
before inserting them in the bottle.

Don't forget that the oranges will introduce more sugar into the beer so it
is possible/probable that you could restart fermentation from the sugar in
the orange unless you have exceeded the range of the yeast in the barley
wine.  You might consider a strip of orange peel instead.  Well, at least
it's not a chili pepper.




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:15:06 -0700
From: Jeff Schroeder <jms at rahul.net>
Subject: Early hop harvest / drying hops

I have seen several posts from people who are experiencing an early
harvest this year. This is my third season growing hops, and, while I
don't know if it's early (I don't remember when they were ready last
year), I did just harvest a bunch of Fuggles. They were definitely
ready; some were starting to turn brown. The Cascades are a little
behind, but they should be ready in a week or two. I live in San Jose,
CA, in case anybody is tracking this by geography.

One thing I did notice is that the plants have not grown as much as last
year: They did reach the top of the twine, but last year they grew over
the top and cascaded down again about half way. So, perhaps an early and
smaller harvest.

- ---

I just finished drying the Fuggles I picked. I started with about 200 g
of wet hops and they weighed about 50 g when I was done. Does this sound
right? They got very brittle when they were dry: A slight squeeze would
snap the petals off very easily. Somehow whole hops that you buy seem a
little softer. Did I overdry? Is that possible?

 - Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Schroeder
San Jose, CA
jms at rahul.net


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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 13:09:11 -0500
From: "Tim Burkhart" <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Put a cork in it

I recently took advantage of a number of Ommegang, Chimay, and Duvel .5l 
bottles I had stored up... went to the brewshop and bought wine corks and
wire cages... sanitized the corks, filled the bottles, corked em, wired em
up, and put em in the cellar.

Just yesterday I noticed all of the bottles had some amount of krausen in
the necks (from 1/4 to 1 inch of foam)... I realize now that I should have
set the bottles on their sides (ie. should have read HBD archives first).

My question is... should there be krausen activity in a corked bottle? I
have never noticed this activity in capped bottles... are the corks perhaps
not sealing enough? TIA.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:43:14 -0300
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalistech.com>
Subject: Bouncing new baby brewery

Hi all,

I'm getting settled into my new house.  Boxes boxes everywhere!  
Never owned a house before, so this should be fun.

The really fun part is that I actually get to setup my brewery all 
over again, only this time I can re-arrange water lines and such 
like.

I am on a septic system now though and I was wondering if anyone else 
out there had a septic tank.  If so, I'd be interested in any feed 
back people might have on the impact of various brewery chemicals 
(chlorinated TSP, Ecolox, PBW, and Iodophor to name a few I use) on 
the system.  The tank was pumped out a year ago, and is quite modern.

The second problem is a little more serious.  Clever lad that I am I 
decided to setup shop in the garage.  This wouldn't be a problem 
except that the septic outflow runs across the garage ceiling....I 
would like to setup a sink in the garage, but any waste water is 
going to need to be pumped up hill if it is to go into the septic 
system.

Another possibility would be to dig a large pit, run an outflow pipe 
from the sink to the pit and line the pit with lots of crushed 
gravel.  Since no actual sewage would be going into it, I can't see 
needing a whole new septic tank.  If I did that it would be about 150 
to 200' away from the well head, on ground that slopes away from the 
well.  Sound like a good idea?

I can cope for the short term, but in the longer term I want 
something more 'fixed'.  Any feedback would be appreciated.


- ---
John Robinson              "The most basic rule of survival in any situation is:
Technical Architect         Never look like food." - Park Ranger. 
NovaLIS Technologies       
robinson at novalistech.com    
                           


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:59:17 -0400 
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: 1st/2nd runnings

Paul asks about 1st and 2nd runnings for making a barleywine and then a
smaller beer,
  I tried to send him separate email but I think I lost it.  At any rate I
was going to suggest Ken Schwartz web page on batch sparging as a ballpark
starting point.
  If I remember right, one approximation is to assume 75% efficiency for a
single step infusion, and 0.5 qts per # of liquid left in the grain.
Assuming a 1.25qt/# mash then the 1st runnings before boiling would be
about...
   28pts/# * (# / 1.25qts) * (4qts/gallon) = 90 pts or 1.090 gravity for
first runnings.  Achieving about 0.75 qts of runnoff per # of grain.

Leaving 0.5 qts of 1.090 mash in the grains and then diluting with another
0.75 qts/# of sparge water yields a second running of...
   90 * (0.5 /1.25) = 36 pts or 1.036 gravity for second runnings.

This is only a rough estimate but you get the idea that if you want higher
1st runnings boil off more to concentrate your gravity or use a thicker
mash.  For second runnings you have the same options given the remaining
sugar.  I seem to remember Ken mentioning that he got more efficiency than
he expected from these simple calculations but its a starting point and you
can adjust your later double batches based on your own experience and
efficiencies.
   John Penn


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:05:33 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Cleaning inside of CF wort chillers

Mike Swintosky asked about cleaning the inside of a homemade wort chiller
(CF, I assume).  I cleaned mine by running hot water through it then siphoning
five gallons of hot TSP solution (5 Tbs/5gal) through it followed by another
flushing with hot water. I repeat this process after each use followed by
siphoning five gallons of iodophor solution through it.  Before the next use
I siphon five gallons of iodophor solution through again.  I find TSP in the
paint department of the hardware store.  It may not be available in every
state, however.  Five Star Products makes a cleaner that has a good reputation
that I would probably use if I couldn't get TSP.  I don't remember the name of
the Five Star Product (I hope that is the company name) but I think it can be
found in their ads (Brewing Techniques, maybe Zymurgy).

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:32:02 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Parti Gyle Brewing and Adelscott

Paul Valdivez (brewpab at iwon.com) askes about when to switch from one brew
to another during a parti gyle brew session.  The last time
 I
did this I made a steam beer followed by a stout.  I wanted to brew 10
gallons, but not the same brew.  I mashed all the common ingredients and
lautered monitoring the volume and gravity of the first batch - the steam

beer.  When the product of the gravity and the volume of the runnings
equaled the product and volume of the intended batch, I mixed in the
roasted barley and acid malt for the stout into the mash and ran it out 
for
boiling later.  Both batches were within a few gravity points of their
targets.

If you want 5 gallons of 60 gravity beer and 5 gallons of 40, the total
points required is 5*60+5*40 = 500 points  If your extraction is 
typically
30 points per pound per gallon, you will need 500 / 30 = 16.7 lbs of 
malt. 

You run the first beer until the product of the gravity times volume 
equals
300.  The second batch should have a product of 200.  You may have to add

water to the first batch and / or boil the second batch back to get the
intended volumes at the end.  Double your pleasure.  Double your fun!

Darryl Hickey (djhbrew at aol.com) asks about Adelshoffen Adelscott Biere Au

Malt Whisky.  In "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" Graham Wheeler 
gives
the following recipe for 5 gal US:

9.85 lbs. Peated Whisky Malt
2.2 lbs. Flaked Maize

Mash 30 min at 122'F and 60 min at 149'F ( I would do 90 min at 149'F
single infusion to minimize complications - it won't hurt you )

There are only boiling hops:  .5 oz. Styrian Golding and .4 oz. 
Hallertau. 

Boil 90 min.

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com         72723.1707 at compuserve.com





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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:09:06 -0700
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Best RIM's/HERM's

Wish I could help you, but you eventually have to make your own decision.
What's best for someone else....may not be for you.  Granted, the print
material on reinfusion mashing is not what it could be.....but there must be
hundreds of brewers with websites detailing what worked for them....many
with pictures/drawings/plans.

When I decided to all-grain, my starting theme was "ok, if I ever manage to
find three nice kegs."  Well, soon enough, I had them.  Like you, I tried
next to come up with a grand plan.  Mine was 2-tier, single pump.  Why?
Because I dislike the thought of 12 gallons of near boiling water over my
head.

Why HERM's style?  In my case, I liked the simplicity of it.  I could never
see myself going to a football game while brewing beer at the same time.  I
have hot water anyway, why not use it for other purposes.  Rim's users have
their priorities as well.

The point is get your plan, and go to it.  Why wait another 4 years to
decide.  If this is something you really want to do (have a custom home
brewery), it is really not that difficult to do (time consuming, yes, and
can be a little costly).  In my case, I used a little bit of knowledge from
many other brewers, who thankfully were a lot smarter than I.  Do I make
good beer?  So far, it is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my extracts!

If you're serious, check out other's near you who home brew.  Get your plan
together.  Make drawings of your plumbing, deciding where the flow goes.  I
knew basically what I wanted, but came up with many designs, and wore out my
erasure before coming up with what I wanted.

Then get started.  Tackle one project at a time.  Mine took several months
to complete.

  Who knows, you might have the best brewery plans right in your head.

Here's my system.  It works fine, but I am sure there are many better
systems:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/3768/Brewery.html

Scott and Elke
ICU nurse
Richland, Wa.

Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:29:37 +1000
From: "Gribbles IT Operations" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: All Round Best RIMS/HERMS etc. Request

G'day Gang,

Although I have scoured this group for 4 years and chased info all over the
place , I still cannot make up my mind on building the best all round
RIMS/HERMS system at home. One does this, another does that. Could someone
point me towards plans, or people who have built one with really good
functionality and is user friendly. I know, I know,  how deep is half a hole
etc, but I think you might know what I am getting at. Appreciate all
opinions.

Regards

Mark Ellis

Computer Services Assistant




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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:19:35 -0700 
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: Honking Bobo's

Maybe I'm just cranky, but In HBD #3101 didn't brewster davie make a pass at
me, and then in a typical dodge make up a non-issue to jump on??  Tsk.
David, that sort of behavior belongs in the Bent Dick Yoctobrewery, not
here!!

I won't waste space on this, it's the old "twist, backpedal,
argue-beyond-reason and finally piss off of the list another better quality
poster" (not myself) which litter the archives. I've hardly encouraged hop
cooking, the non-issue.

>I do have to underline my concern for Charles'
>recommendation of p-cooking mash and hops.
>... 
>People jump off cliffs with parachutes, and usually
>survive.  Does that make this activity safe?

Well, how do chemistry sets today compare with those of your youth?  Kinda
namby-pamby?  think kids're learning much science? -- about as relevent.  

>The manufacturer of my pressure cooker (Fagor) says:  "Do
>not cook such foods as ..., * pearl barley*, ... or *other cereals*
>These foods tend to foam, froth and sputter and may block the
>pressure release valve."

We call this, "book-stupid"; ever wasted HBD-space arguing about something
you've only read?  from deficient literature???  The manufacturer of my
pressure cooker, "All American", recommends using an inner vessel for these
goods.  Maybe your spanish manufacturer didn't want to deal with fine
points.  Get a better p-cooker.

>I wonder what effect the high temperature has on the hops' aroma?

Oh, I'll bet you don't really wonder.  You could read the archives, or turn
over a new leaf and tell us your *Actual Experience!!*

Anyway, I've got some better things to write about,
Charles "Wrassles with Pigs" Rich

PS: For HBD-newbies, pressure hopping yields bitterness only - absolutely no
flavor or aroma, that comes from later additions.  And now the obligatory
warning: pressure cooking really can be dangerous, you better know what
you're doing or Burley's gonna honk your Bobo!



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:23:36 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Strange film in carboys

Hi folks,

As many of you already know I recently moved to a new (to me) house.

I had a couple of carboys soaking on the back patio for 2 or 3 weeks with
water and bleach in them.  Nothing new here as I've in the past regularly
left carboys soaking like this for months with no problems.

When I empty these ones, though, there is a white film in places on the
insides.  I can't rinse it, but I can seem to scrub it (what little
scrubbing
you can accomplish on the inside of a carboy).

The only thing I can think of is my water softener.  This is the first place
I've ever been in that has a well and water softener.

Anyone know what it is, and more importanly how to get it out?  It
looks like maybe dried chlorine or something, but who knows?
Fortunately I noticed the problem before my good Pyrex(tm) carboy
had been soaking very long, as it would be a real shame to lose
that one!

thanks,
 -Alan

- --
- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/





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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:41:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: jgibbens at umr.edu
Subject: Strange Blue

Hello all.

Thanks for all of the replies about sealing mash tuns.

I have an old soda fountain converted to hold and chill one 5 gallon 
keg.  There is a light blue compound collecting on the bottom in the 
cooler. It has the consistency of laundry detergent.  Ok chemistry PhDs, 
any clue what it could be?  For the record, the sac anode is still in 
place, but may not be effective with the water bath drained.  The metals 
in the system are copper, stainles steel, and aluminum.

New subject.  Does anyone know how dangerous stainless steel weld slag 
and the slag from a torch cut are to beer?  The top of my fermenter is a 
corny keg welded to a 15 gallon keg.  The setup works great, but the welds 
and plasma torch cuts have been impossibe to clean on the interior.  What 
does the brewing industry do to prepare the welds on the inside of a 
fermenter?  

Joe Gibbens


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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 22:45:23 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Adelscott

Darryl Hickey (djhbrew at aol.com) asked about making Adelscott, which is a
peaty, light-bodied french beer with a starting gravity around 64.

I've sampled this one often at one of my local beer bars (Rennerian
Coordinate about 800 miles due East).  I'd use about 9 lbs of pils malt,
with a mixture of maize and dark candi sugar to bring the gravity
towards 64.  Maize and candi sugar are part of what gives the beer its
light body.  I'd use about 5 oz of the Hugh Baird smoked peat, or a
whole pound of the Baird lightly smoked peat (which has about 1/3 the
phenols.)  This is beer has more peat reek than any beer I've tasted,
including Skullsplitter.  I think I'd use lager yeast and 1/2 lb of the
dark candi sugar.

I'll resume lurking while the rest of you write about yeast not
respiring in wort, the uselessness of secondary fermentation, what a
great organization the AHA is, and the myths of HSA.  In this awful
weather, all my brews have been in secondary fermentation for some time
and I'm not going to brew until my kitchen is cool.

Cheers
Ted


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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:19:36 -0700
From: "Charles Rich" <riches at halcyon.com>
Subject: laying up p-decotions

Chad Clancey asked for input regarding putting up p-cooked decoctions for
later use.

> ... this thread made me wonder if one could 
>p-cook a bunch of jars of mash or runoff to be stored and added to later 
>batches.  This would save the decoction step for these batches yet
possibly 
>lend the desired character.  Has anyone considered or tried such a
technique? 
> If so, would it be better to p-cook and store only runoff or a thick
portion 
>of the mash?   Any ideas on how well the canned "decoction" might keep?

Beginning about the first week in April 1997 there was a lot of discussion
about decoctions and p-decoctions, with Charlie Scandrett contributing the
best stuff, IMHO,  I described canning decoct fractions on the 8th and
11th.  The whole month is good to review.

This last December (1998) I opened the last of the jars of thick mash I'd
saved from then, for seeing how they'd keep.  Well, it still tasted pretty
darned good!  I don't recall clearly the original taste, but this was still
big.  The top of the grain had dulled in color for the top 1/4" and the
rest looked fine.  I can't say I found a big difference in the taste of the
dull layer although it must have oxidised some.  After six months and after
one year there was no difference.  I've also had a jar of p-cooked starter
that still tasted fresh after 6-years.

I figured once that about 15% of the empty space in a half-filled jar of
canned water is air so there will be some oxygen present but there is also
a lot of antioxidant potential in the products which develop during the
p-cooking.  Steve Alexander and Charlie Scandrett explained it with depth
about the time above.  I arrived at 15% air in the "vacuum" by cracking the
lid carefully underwater and measuring the volume which was displaced.

Anyway, that's my story!

Charles Rich (Bothell,USA)

BTW: Steve Alexander was somewhat correct recently re: pressure hoppping. 
My numbers were closer to 1/4 of the hops I would have boiled, not 1/10th. 
Steve: I'd say that 1/2 of the expected amount would still be too much, but
I like how you arrived at the number.  People, report your experiences,
please!



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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 05:24:38 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Question: Use of microwave for Decoction ?

I am thinking about a Marzen/Oktoberfest....all grain and after reading a
bit have decided to try my second decoction.  I know I need to figure
out the temperatures and such, but wonder: could I use the microwave to
bring the temp up to a boil on the portion that I pull off of the mash?

I realize that it may be a bit late for this (October seems just around the
corner)....but , better late than never.

Any advice would be very appreciated.

 ..Darrell Leavitt
<Terminally INtermediate Home-brewer>


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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 06:01:14 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Fusarium oxysporum and hops?

I read in my paper a couple of days ago that 2 state agencies in Florida
have been authorized to test the fungus Fusarium oxysporum as a
bioherbicide against marijuana plants. Right now the testing is being
conducted in a quarantine lab, but if the tests are successful their plan
would be to spray areas with this fungus to wipe out illegal marijuana crops.

My question to the collective is whether the effects of this fungus on hops
(a distant cousin of marijuana) are known? I can see some homebrewers being
very surprised at the devastation of their backyard hop bines.

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA


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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:08:57 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: fermentability - was mash thickness

John Wilkinson writes of fermentability ...

>Would this fermentability be reflected in apparent attenuation?

I have only the results of this particular paper (reprinted in PoBS and
M&BS) but the term 'fermentability' is used in reference to both the REAL
and the APPARENT attenuation.  The two are almost linearly related tho.  I
think the above must refer to the apparent attenuation as you suggest.

>Also, yeast spec sheets show apparent attenuation numbers of from 67% to
75%.
>Why would apparent attenuation depend on the yeast?

Excellent question - but I don't know the answer.

Wyeast/Dave Logsdon prints ranges of apparent attenuation for his yeasts.  I
have no clue how he arrives at these numbers and would love to ask him.
Dave Logsdon is in good company though.  The British National Collection of
Yeast Cultures (NCYC) mostly brewing yeast collections allow you to search
using the following parameter:

>Attenuation
>Any
>1.006-1.008
>1.008-1.010
>1.010-1.012
>1.012-1.014
>1.014-1.016
>  - Specific Gravity after 6 Days.
>ie the degree to which fermentation occurs.
>- 1.016 denotes a product which is sweet at the end of fermentation with a
high S.G.
>- 1.006 denotes a product which is dry at the end of fermentation with a
low S.G.

These attenuation numbers appear to mean the attenuation available in a
'reasonable' period of time (6 days).

- --
Bryan Gros says ...

>>Someone posted:
>> if you manage to keep the yeast in the logarithmic growth
>>phase (not allowing it to switch to alcohol production)

Don't know who 'Someone' is (another damnable pseudonym no doubt)  but
he/she is very wrong.  Most fermentation (and so alcohol production) occurs
during the 'log' or 'growth' or 'exponential' phase.   The yeast ferment
sugars at a high rate during their growth phase as their primary energy
source.  When growth ceases during the 'stationary' phase the energy
requirements also drop drastically and the fermentation then just putts
along *very* slowly.  After the growth phase yeast do store some
carbohydrates internally as energy reserves as trehalose and (... can't
remember) but the total amount needed as an *absolute maximum* estimate is
about 0.0004 SG (0.4 points)  to give 7% stored carbs to the entire yeast
mass.

So why do yeast cease to grow.  Simple - they use up some growth factor and
then CAN'T reproduce.  The most common one in brewing is reportedly
O2/sterol/unsaturated fatty acids (all related to O2 availability), but FAN
is a problem in adjunct wort, and there is a list of about 25 or 30 known
growth factors (like biotin and pantothenic acid ...) that are all needed.
One any one of these runs out - growth and rapid fermentation ceases.

The yeast flocculate when several conditions are ALL met.  The must be in
stationary phase (which means some growth factor is missing.  Lager and most
ale yeasts are inhibited from floccing when certain sugars or carbs are
present.  (this does NOT mean that fermentation follows - some of the
flocculation inhibiting sugars are not fermentable).  A pH between 3.8 and
4.0 seems ideal - but pH 2.5 to 5.5 allows some flocculation to occur.
Lager yeast have an apparently absolute requirement for calcium ions in
order to floculate, while ale are unaffected by this alone.  Ale need
ethanol levels around 5% in order to completely floc - but the needed level
drops significantly if calcium ions are present even around 1mMol levels.
All of these conditions, and probably more are needed before flocculation
occurs.

After yeast leave the growth phase there are very significant changes to the
exterior cell walls.  The mannan levels change, the proteins change and
lager yeast grow hairlike extentions.  Stirring or circulating wort (as in a
big cylindroconical) is known to extend the growth phase - tho' the reasons
are not well explained.  A micrograph of a lager yeast cell after growth
phase looks more like a dustbunny than a grape - the change is dramatic.
Trying to resuspend already flocced old yeast is something like tying a
weight to your goldfish so it won't float to the top of the bowl.  It
attacks the symptom, not the cause of the problem.  Far better to shaker
during active fermentation than after flocculation.

 -S





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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 07:44:46 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re  50 qt pot

Paul Valdiviez wrote:

I found a great price on a 50qt stainless steel pot.  Is 50qt (12.5 gal.) big
enough for a 10 gal. boil.

Just barely if you"re an extract brewer wanting to finish with 10 gal in
the boiler.

If you use an immersion chiller and will leave both hot & cold break behind
you'll want to finish with 11 gal. You may also want to lleave a little
more to make up for loss when transferring

With the above in mind and being a grain it would be a little small if you
use it to collect wort from the mash tun.



Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:43:15 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Chiller suggestions

G'Day all, and particularly to Ted Major from Birmingham, Alabama who
enquired about Chiller options.

I too gave up on immersion chilling, but after only 1 or 2 brews.  All that
jiggling and wiggling was not for me.  I was considering converting to the
Phils phittings, but they were difficult to get and fairly expensive 
down under.

Instead, I took inspiration from the Zymurgy Chiller test which showed some
chillers made from a copper coil inside a piece of 100mm/4" pvc sewer
pipe.  I had a
(new) off cut lying around so a few dollars of end caps later and I was in
business.

I took my 15' length of 3/8" copper pipe and wound it into a tight spiral ~
3" in diameter.  Water flows in at the bottom to fill the PVC pipe and
exits at a fitting on the top.  Works fine with 25 litres( 6 gals ) wort
chilled in about 15 unattended minutes.

I used to clean it regularly by filling it with a vinegar solution and
rinsing, but now just run a few litres of boiling water through it during
the mash.  After use I run about 20 litres water through it by plumbing it
into the garden hose used for cleaning the boiler and mash tun.

For storage, I drain and hold some plastic wrap over the ends of the pipes
by using some old keg 'O' rings.

As Ted suspects, I found that vinyl hose does get soft and collapse.  I use
some reinforced food grade vinyl that I found at the local mega hardware
store.

Sing out if anyone would like any additional details.

David Lamotte
Brewing Down Under in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia.


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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:brewing on a scale?

Oh yeah, yeast mass.  Wish I'd cancelled that post.  

Matt Comstock wearing dunce cap in Cincinnati.

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:17:52 -0400
From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net>
Subject: UV sanitation

Hi All,

During a visit to American Brew Master in Raleigh, NC, I observed a uv
sterilization tube ($200) that sterilizes liquids passed through it.  I
recall that the hometown brewery in Ogden, UT used one of these to fill
their fermentation room - yes, a room - with wort?  Their brew was known
throughout the region as "skunky" and could be identified by smell within
any collection of glasses of various brews.  However, it seems that there
might be application to un-hopped wort sterilization of large volumes of
liquid.  Possibly a decent technique with brews containing only isomerized
hop extracts?

I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions/experiences using one of these units
for home brewing.

                                      Thanks,




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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:57:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: No-sparge revisited

"Scholz, Richard" <RScholz at refco.com> got better than usual no-sparge
efficience with

> a side
>pot of 1lb of cracked oats and 1lb  60L crystal was slowly raised to the
>boil with 2 gallons of water (less water and you make oatmeal).<snip>

and asks:

>Why did the cereal mash ( almost like a single decoction ) improve the
>efficiency significantly?

Well, first off, a minor nit - it wasn't really a cereal mash.  Since you
didn't have any enzymes (crystal malt has none), you didn't mash, you
steeped and then boiled.  If you had included some pale malt as is done in
a traditional cereal mash, it would have converted some of the starches at
the lower temperatures.  This might have increased the maltiness during the
boil, too.

>Was it the 30mins at 140F added to the mashing process?

This certainly couldn't have hurt.  This 60C/70C mash has been reported by
Fix to slightly increase efficiency.

>Was it the gelatinization of the starch in the oats?

Again, a minor contribution, but you only have one lb. of oats, so even
increasing their extract wouldn't add that much, I'd think.

>Was it just the longer mashing time ( usually 1hr )?

I'll bet another minor contribution.

>Any thoughts?

I think that you did several things, as you suggested, that all may have
added a few per cent, and together, they ended up with the increase you
observed.  Hope the beer turned out well, too.  Oats should be a nice
addition to an ESB.

BTW, I have noted that several beers in CAMRA's _Real Ale Almanac_ list
oats as an ingredient, sometimes as "pinhead oats."  I wondered what this
meant, until I was in Ireland last month, and saw what we call steel cut
oats sold as pinhead oats.  Mystery solved.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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---