---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  back issues of BT (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: Bending SS tubing (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: HBD server fund is overdrawn (John_E_Schnupp)
  Hose (not house) Flavor (phil sides jr)
  magnum hops ("Micah Millspaw")
  Kansas City and Toledo (Nathan Kanous)
  Prickly Pear Mead (Brad McMahon)
  minis and sodas (MVachow)
  Iron/steel exposure to beer (Israel Christie)
  Re: Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ? (Jeff Renner)
  re: Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ? (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Brewing first lager ("Trevor Good")
  Re; minis and sodas... (pbabcock)
  Prickly question, bending tubing (Dave Burley)
  RE: bucket o' holes ("Daniel, Elijah")
  hefeweizen recipe clone needed (J Daoust)
  Mash time ("Charles Beaver")
  Re. Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ? (Darryl Newbury)
  Yeast Pitching Rates (Biergiek)
  demise of brewing techniques/ change in the air for aha? ("Bayer, Mark A")
  AHA... (Jim Cave)
  Elderberry beer (Mark van Bommel)
  Salvator (Joe Gibbens)
  Server Fund ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Seattle brewing clubs (Bradley Sevetson)
  Elderberry beer (Petr Otahal)
  Cobalt blue beer bottles? ("Ed D'Anna")
  Bending 1/2" SS Tube..... (Jamie)
  Bucket of holes; Mini-Kegs; Bottling Mead & PLambic (Ted McIrvine)
  Looking for Framboise recipe (Jamie)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* The HBD now hosts eight digests related to this and a few other hobbies.
* Send an email note to majordomo at hbd.org with the word "lists" on one 
* line, and "help" on another (don't need the quotes) for a listing and
* instructions for use.


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:44:23 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: back issues of BT

I was looking at some back issues of BT the other evening,
gawd I'm going to miss it.

Does anyone have copies they would part with?  I need
all of volume 1 and issues 1 thru 4 of volume 2.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:44:37 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Bending SS tubing

Bill,

>    The question is- how can I bend 1/2" ss, .035 wall thickness to
>approx. 90 deg. with a 4 - 6" radius? It can be done: my keg conversion
>kit from SS in Seattle has a tube bent that way. I cant't do it by hand
>because it crimps. Can anyone reccommend a tool or somebody in the Denver
>metro area who can do this?

They make tubing benders.  The ones I'm talking about have two handles
that flex around a "hinge."  Check out ITEM 3755-3VGA at Harbor Freight
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/taf/DisplayItem.taf?ItemNumber=3755

They have sizes up to 1/2", anything larger and I think you're getting
into the hydraulic ram type benders due to the force required.  The hand
benders are usually low cost and you can find then at most decent
hardware stores or especially at plumbing supply places.

OTOH, a cheap way to do this it to cut a circular piece of wood and
fasten it to a flat board.  Lay the tubing next to the form and hold
it in place with a nail, then bend the tubing around the circular form
(this is the idea of the previously mentioned bender).

If you only need to make one bend using a homemade jig is ok, but if
you are tool freak and gadget guy like me then the investment in
a tubing bender is probably well worth it.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:44:43 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: HBD server fund is overdrawn

Jeff said:
>My check's in the mail.

I didn't realize how badly I needed my daily dose of HDB until the
medication was taken away.

Mine's on the way too.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 01:59:34 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Hose (not house) Flavor

I recently bought a couple of those yellow garden hoses labeled
"drinking water safe" at Home Depot.  I suppose the majority use for
these is to provide a water supply to a motor home/RV etc.  Likewise, I
expected these hoses to NOT impart that plastic, hose flavor normally
present in standard (read not drinking water safe) garden hoses.  Boy
was I wrong...  Now I realize that drinking water safe and food-grade
may not necessarily mean the same thing.  Anyone have any idea on how to
rid the hoses of the flavor other than running 10 bazillion gallons of
water through them?  Also, will the flavor eventually go away or do I
need to scrap those plans and seek food-grade hoses?  BTW I do have a
new filter setup that I could use behind the hoses.  Do you think a
whole-house size charcoal filter would scrub the hose flavor?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 06:36:05 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at SILGANMFG.COM>
Subject: magnum hops

Has anyone be using the Magnum variety of hops? They are another high 
alpha super hop type. In any event, I have recently completed my evaluation
 of these hops and found that they are prone to oxidation and stale 
flavour in packaged beer at about 6 months in stable conditions (no 
temperature or motion) and about 3 month at unstable conditions. In all 
the Magnum preformance is very similar to the old CFJ 90 hops. Very good 
out of the gate but not much in the long run.
This has been a hop public service announcement.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large 


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 07:27:11 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Kansas City and Toledo

Work takes me to Kansas City October 21 to the 27 and Toledo Nov 5 and 
6.  Where's the beer?
nathan in madison, wi


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 22:42:49 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Prickly Pear Mead


>1. Dumb question-- How do you prepare the little darlin's?  Peel >them or 
>just mash 'em up whole?

Put on some washing up gloves, stick them in a bucket of warm
water and rub them all over with a cloth to remove those
prickles, they're like fibreglass!
I cut them in half and scooped out the innards.


2. Better to put fruit puree in primary or secondary? 

I put them in the primary.

3. Best base honey to use? (I already have a lot of orange blossom
honey).

Like Charlie Pap says, use very light honey. I used lucerne and
Salvation Jane honeys.
I think you know lucerne as alfalfa, not sure.

Brad


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:48:46 -0500 
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: minis and sodas

	Soda kegs do indeed require another fridge.  For those who do not
have room for an extra fridge, mini kegs are an excellent alternative to
bottling--although I wonder what mini-keggers do with the other 14L of beer
from a 5 gallon batch that's not in the mini-keg.  Does one leave it in the
secondary fermentor, or mini-keg it, shoot a little CO2 on top and let it
sit at room temp or out on the porch, or does one mini-keg it all and put it
all in the fridge (this last alternative seems like an awful good way to
lobby for the extra fridge)?  For those who do have the room for that extra
fridge and who don't encounter grave spousal disapproval at the notion, the
cost quickly balances out.  Servicable fridges or chest freezers are to be
had for $100-200.  The comparative costs of mini-kegging and soda-kegging
would, in this instance, balance out after the second 80-100 gallons of beer
(from my comparison yesterday).  On the other hand, used fridges are heavy,
dangerous to move and potential service nightmares, and for many--who live
upstairs, who don't have pickup trucks or friends with trucks and hand
trucks, who tremble at the prospect of a warranty-less appliance with a
mysterious history, etc.--this factor may assume a kind of hassle cost that
balances out the eventual savings on soda kegging.   As for the replacement
of kegs. . . .I unwisely took for gospel the blurbs from several well-known
purveyors of homebrewing gear, which claim that mini-kegs generally have a
finite lifetime.  Clearly, it's in these retailers' may simply be trying to
sell more mini-kegs; the experience of homebrewers with the mini-kegs is a
much more valuable data point.  Finally, there's also the question of
marginal utility; that is, my 80-100 gallon comparison does not account for
the distinct possiblity that the brewer may never reach these production
totals because he has lost interest in the hobby or encountered some other
circumstances that force him to stop producing beer.  Not being certain that
homebrewing is something you will or can continue to pursue is another good
reason to invest in mini-kegging capacity.

Mike
NOLA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 09:52:50 -0400
From: Israel Christie <ichristie at vt.edu>
Subject: Iron/steel exposure to beer

Hi folks,
This is an excert fom a Dave Miller article:
http://166.90.130.27/library/backissues/issue1.4/miller.html

<snip>
Although copper was always the metal of
choice for brew kettles, iron was used for brew kettles and lauter tuns
back in the old days (1800s and earlier), and authorities as recent as
Jean de Clerck seriously discuss the use of this material. I myself have
seen mild steel rakes in a two-vessel German decoction brewhouse
built in the 1930s.After seeing those rakes, I decided not to replace my
old enamelware
brew kettle when it started to pit. As far as I could determine, use of
the pitted kettle did not cause a metallic taste or haze in my home
brews.
<snip>


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:26:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ?

Chuck "Charles E. Mryglot" <cmryglot at progress.com> asked

>I was just drinking a Paulaner Oktoberfest.  The upper right corner of the
>label has 'ALE' printed on it.    Anyone know what's up with this?

This is due to alcohol regulations in some states that require that beer
over a certain strength be labeled ale, irrespective of its brewing method.
This was based on the fact that ale was typically more alcoholic
historically in the US than lager ("beer").  I suspect that many (most?)
liquor regulations were written at the lifting of prohibition or perhaps
even before prohibition.  Some states require such beer to be labeled malt
liquor.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 14:04:41 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
Subject: re: Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ?

I'll bet you live in Texas, where the Powers-That-Be have (in Their
Infinite Wisdom) decided that all beer with an alcohol content over
some arbitrary percentage must be termed an Ale. 

Other states may have similiar rules about naming.
***********************************
Go ahead ... try the sauce. The sauce is good. The sauce 
will make you YOUNG again...


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:12:19 -0600
From: "Trevor Good" <t.good at printwest.com>
Subject: Brewing first lager

   Well its official I finally have a second fridge to lager in.
Unfortunatly I don't know what I'm doing. I have read that step mashing is
the preferred method for lagering and at what temperature do I mash at? Up
untill now I have been doing single infusion mashes in a Gott cooler. Also
at what temperature do I ferment at and for how long? Is there a different
grain that is for lagering right now I use Bioriginal pale malt.
   I really want to brew a Pilsner Urquell ( my local pub ran out last week
with delivery some time next week ) does anybody have a recipe they would
like to share.
   I know this is a fairly general inquiry so private e-mail is welcome.

Thanks in advance
Trevor Good
Saskatoon Saskatchewan



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:20:56 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Re; minis and sodas...


Mike MVachow at newman.k12.la.us writes of minis and sodas...
 
> 	Soda kegs do indeed require another fridge.  For those who do not

Au contrare, mon ami! Take a peek at the last-published Brewing
Techniques! A tiny draft system can be made for the soda kegs precluding
the need for another regrigerator. This could be an ice-and-water cooled -
doesn't have to be a 'fridge. 

> have room for an extra fridge, mini kegs are an excellent alternative to
> bottling--although I wonder what mini-keggers do with the other 14L of beer
> from a 5 gallon batch that's not in the mini-keg.  Does one leave it in the

You put it in 3.77 more minikegs, or you bottle it.

> had for $100-200.  The comparative costs of mini-kegging and soda-kegging
> would, in this instance, balance out after the second 80-100 gallons of beer
> (from my comparison yesterday).  

Sooner than that, I think. The little CO2 "chargers" they use are fairly
expensive, and, unless you're really good at getting it to seal in the
chamber (a singular challenge...) they don't last through an entire 5l keg

>On the other hand, used fridges are heavy,
> dangerous to move 

Only if you're the guy under it :-)

> As for the replacement
> of kegs. . . .I unwisely took for gospel the blurbs from several well-known
> purveyors of homebrewing gear, which claim that mini-kegs generally have a
> finite lifetime.  Clearly, it's in these retailers' may simply be trying to
> sell more mini-kegs; the experience of homebrewers with the mini-kegs is a
> much more valuable data point.  

Well, they are more limited thatn a soda keg, to be sure, but bot as
limited as, say, the way most breweries that still use them intend them to
be (put in the tap, invert, pop a hole in the bottom. EEEeeyyyyyaaaaahhh! 
Why?! Oh, the humanity...) Anyway, some of the "older-timers" may be
reminded of the "boinked keg" discussions a few years back (search the
archives around '94 through '96 for the word "boink"). If you naturally
condition in the keg, or the kegged beer wasn't yet done and takes off in
the mini, it's life (and ability to stand upright) is severely reduced.

Me? I learned from a close frined (Hi, Rich!) several years back that
changing the stopper on my CP bottle filler (to a #4, I think. Maybe it's
a 6), I can CP fill minis from soda kegs for easy transportaion to
parties. Hell! I have a butt-load of minis, and two Fass-Frischtaps for
this purpose, and one of my favorite Christmas presents to beer (my beer)
loving friends and family is a tap of their own so I can gift them with my
beer on occasion (the rare occasion when I actually HAVE some f my own
beer anymore...)

> Finally, there's also the question of
> marginal utility; that is, my 80-100 gallon comparison does not account for
> the distinct possiblity that the brewer may never reach these production
> totals because he has lost interest in the hobby or encountered some other
> circumstances that force him to stop producing beer.  Not being certain that
> homebrewing is something you will or can continue to pursue is another good
> reason to invest in mini-kegging capacity.

True, but such are hobbies. Some burn slow and hot like the sun for some
folk. Some burn like gunpowder in a teaspoon for others. If we had to
cost-justify this hobby in the US anymore, I'm afraid that a bunch of beer
brewing suppliers wouldn't just be having difficulty staying in business,
they'd all be long gone...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:42:02 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Prickly question, bending tubing

Brewsters:

Tom  of Maine has scored by getting a bunch of
Prickly Pear cactus pears. Being a Down Easter
and not normally having this fruit available,  wants
to know how to prepare them for a mead, 


I have never made a mead from these, but have
eaten these fruit on many occasions -  having lived
in the California desert and had a giant prickly pear
cactus in back of my house. I have also made
mead and wine and will try to combine these
experiences into a Denken Brau for you.

If you are going to handle them for cutting or
crushing, the time honored way is to stick a
fork in one and hold it over a gas flame to
burn off those little spines which will live in
your hands for weeks if you don't pay attention
to this. This is a little like burning pinfeathers off
a chicken. Only a quick pass through the  flames
is needed. If these are ripe enough, split it in half
and  scoop out the insides. This is the fastest way.
Otherwise, bring out your peeler or knife, as the skin
undoubtedly has some healthy tannins and a
vegetal taste - taste it - and would inferfere with
the delicate nature of the fruit and the pyment mead.   

Chop these fruit into grape sized pieces or smaller
to get good extraction.
 

As with any fruit, I would suggest you use some
pectic enzyme to prevent having a cloudy wine
and to improve your extraction from the fruit.
Pectic enzyme in the diluted honey should also
be used to remove any protein haze from there.
Add this before fermentation begins.

Also recommended is adding an 1/8 tsp of
sodium or, better, potassium metabisulfite
directly to the fruit fo each 5 gallons of wine
you will make. If less than that, make up
a solution of 1/4 tsp of metabisulfite and
divide it by 10. each 1/10 will be sufficient for a
gallon. The main purpose is to keep the fruit
from undergoing oxidative browning while you
prepare it and the fermentation gets started.
If the fruit is acidic enough it may also prevent
any acetification.  If you add an active wine
yeast starter ( do this a few days before) .
you should not be bothered by this. These
fruits are low in sugar, so I suggest you ignore
this contribution and add enough honey to make 

a 12% mead. This will be stable. Less ( say 10%)
is possible if you are going to drink it within a year.
The orange blossom is a good choice of honey.

As far as choice of yeast goes, I would suggest
a non-attenuative white wine yeast like Steinberg
or Montrachet or some of the funny numbers for
Saccharomyces Cerevisiae  wine yeasts from
other providers. Wyeast sells mead yeast which
I have never tried. Definitely stay away from
Saccharomyces Bayanus types as they will
go too dry.  Jethro should be able to give you
some excellent advice in this category.
Keep the temperature in the 70F range during
fermentation.

I would start this fermentation in an open vessel
( like a bucket or plastic container) and not a
carboy, as gettting the fruit in and out will be messy.
Choose one which is about 10 gallons or so for a
5 gallon batch, so you will have plenty of head room
and cover it with a plastic sheet held down by
daisy chained rubber bands After the active
fermentation starts, twice or more a day push
and stir the fruit down into the fermenting mass
 with a large plastic spoon - not metal and not
plain wood unless you boil it to sterilize it first.
This is done to get good extraction and prevent
possible acetification of the fruit on the surface.
When the fruit no longer rises substantially,
but while there is still some active fermentation
( usually about a week),  time to transfer the liquid
to the carboy. I suggest you strain the fruit out
by dipping it out with a plastic strainer and
allowing it to drain in a plastic collander which
is lined with nylon window screening or cheese
cloth. Press out the liquid as best you can.
If you have a small press, of course, use it.

Allow this to continue to ferment under airlock.
Rack it off the organic trub within a month, after
allowing the ferment to be chilled for a week
or so to help clarify it.  Another racking in a
month or so will continue to help in the
clarification and stabilize the mead.
Keep the mead cool during this period to
minimize any decomposition of the trub and
whenever you transfer the still wine from one
vessel to another be sure to dose the wine to
30-50 ppm of metabisulfuite using approximately
1/8 tsp per 5 gallons. This should make a
nice pink pyment. Adjust the acidity to 0.65-0.7%
tartaric acid, higher for the sweeter meads..

Can you say Pretty Pink Prickly Pear Pyment
three times after a few glasses of it?
- -----------------------------------
Bill Graham asks how he can bend stainless
tubing without crimping it. And takes credit
for being the source of the problem for 

the HBD being down and then asks for 

his "encouragement" back from Pat and Karl..

My comment? Go pound sand.
Oops, sorry but that's what you get for
knocking out the HBD, but it is also
the solution  to your  problem.

Anyway, the time honored solution to
prevent crimping a tube is to fill it with
sand before you bend it. The sand
will keep the tube from crimping. The
finer the sand, the better, in most cases.
Be sure to wrap it around some kind of 

form as you bend it.

If you still have troubles, try using 

the above with heat applied from  a 

welding torch.

Good luck on your new job and move.
- ----------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:25:15 -0400 
From: "Daniel, Elijah" <Elijah.Daniel at compaq.com>
Subject: RE: bucket o' holes

I'd second that one. [Insert standard disclaimer here.]  It's also really
easy to connect a phalse bottom to the spigot that's already on your
bottling bucket...

A small rubber stopper (the size that fits in a beer bottle) will fit
tightly inside the threaded part of the spigot inside the bucket.  The hole
in the stopper is just the right size for some 3/8" OD hard plastic tubing
(racking cane material) to fit into... then all that's left is to attach the
racking cane to the hose barb on the phalse bottom with a short piece of
soft vinyl tubing.  Total cost: about $1 (plus the phalse bottom, of
course).  And you can mash in the same bucket too... just cover it with
blankets for insulation.  Works really well.

 -Eli Daniel

> Alternately, you could save yourself a lot of time and a few
> drill bits by buying the Phil's Phalse Bottom.  Best $13 I ever
> spent on my mashing equipment (no affiliation, blah, blah,
> blah).  Serves the wonderful dual purpose of 1) saving time, and
> 2) saving a bucket.  By using the replaceable false bottom, your
> lautering bucket can be used for myriad purposes.  Keep it
> simple.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 08:49:09 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: hefeweizen recipe clone needed

I am looking for a clone of either or both pyramid ales or widmer
hefeweizen. I have all the ingredients, and was hoping somebody could
save me a half dozen or so test batches of experimentation. Thanks in
advance for the help,  Jerry Daoust
private e-mail is great



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:05:08 -0500
From: "Charles Beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net>
Subject: Mash time

Hi everyone,
My understanding of the duration of mashing is that after full
conversion, additional mashing is not needed. I recently looked at the
some of the winning recipes from the 1995 AHA competition and most used
a mash time of 30 - 60 minutes. I then looked at the winning recipes in
the 1999 competition and almost all indicated a mash time of 90 minutes.
What are the expected effects of protracted mashing. Will there be
simply a better yield or are other flavors produced that make of better
beer?
I used a 45 minute mash recently for an APA, and comparing it to SNPA,
there is a slightly more rounded, malty note to the SNPA. I mashed at
154 degrees. My beer had no off flavors and cleared quickly.

By the way it's great to have the Digest back!




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:15:29 +0000
From: darryl at sagedesign.com (Darryl Newbury)
Subject: Re. Paulaner Oktoberfest Ale ?

>chuckm  wrote: I was just drinking a Paulaner Oktoberfest.  The upper
>right corner of the
>label has 'ALE' printed on it.    Anyone know what's up with this?

Just a guess but, could describing Paulaner's as an "Ale" have something
to do with weird laws in your state? While visiting family in Texas last
year I came across beer labelled "Bock" which were about 4% alcohol and
were in fact ales. I was told that alcohol percentage defined the style in
that state.

But then coming from Ontario, Canada where our laws prohibit anybody but
the government through the LCBO and our megabreweries (Molsons and
Labatts) through "The Beer Store" chain from selling beer. So I guess I
shouldn't be complaining too much about your weird laws. By the way, our
LCBO is about to release Rogue's Dead Guy, what style of beer is it?

Cheers Darryl



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:10:32 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: Yeast Pitching Rates

I reread some of Fix's lastest book on pp. 68-69
regarding pitching rates (sorry Fouch, no info on
catching rates).  He recommends that 1.5 million
yeast cells per milliliter per degree P is what is
needed for cold fermenting lagers (half this for
ales).  So, for a 5 gallon 50 gravivity lager this
works out to be:

required yeast cells = 1.5*(10^6)*(5 /0.003875)*50
                       *0.25 = 2.4 X 10^11

He goes on to say that 1 ml of yeast solids contains
4.5X10^9 yeast cells:

required ml yeast solids = 2.4X10^11 / 4.5X10^9
= 5.38 ml

Then he indicates that the solids (yeast cake) at
the bottom of a fermented and completely flocculated
yeast starter contain 25% of yeast.

required ounces yeast solids = 5.38 ml X 0.003875
                             X 128 = 2.7 ounces

My primary fermenter is a 6.5 gallon bucket, which
has roughly a 12" diameter.  I have noticed that at
the end of primary fermentation there is about 1/2"
of solids at the bottom of the bucket, which equates
to the following ounces of yeast solids:

(0.5/12)*(3.14*0.25)*(1.0^2)  *  0.25  * 7.48 * 128
= 7.8 ounces yeast solids

so..... perhaps I can expect 7.8 ounces of yeast
solids per 5 gallons of fermented wort, therefore,
I need the following size starter for a 50 gravity
lager:

lager starter size, gallons = (5 / 7.8) * 2.7 =
1.73 gallons

Anyone making 2 gallon starters for their lagers and
1 gallon starters for their ales?  I received nothing
but yawns from the diejest regarding this topic.

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:09:34 -0700 
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: demise of brewing techniques/ change in the air for aha?

collective homebrew conscience_

i sent in my request for one last back issue yesterday to bt.  a void exists
in the homebrewing community, and the aha has an opportunity to capitalize
on it.

if zymurgy would start including the type of editorial content and technical
information that bt produced, i would probably join the aha, just to get the
information.  i would at least buy the mag.

this scenario would require a change in philosophy from the top down at the
aha.  "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" is a tantalizing invitation to
the hobby, but maybe "here's a lot of information you can use to brew the
best beer you can" is more relevant for a lot of us these days.  and we can
still relax, when the wort is in the fermentor.

now that the homebrewing community is undergoing a consolidation and
interest in the hobby is waning, who are the homebrewers that are still
brewing?  brewers who are sticking with it because we like reading articles
about bottle openers?  or brewers who are doing it to make good (and,
increasingly better) beer?

hmmm...

relax, don't worr......wait, scratch that.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo

ps - i didn't really mind the bottle opener article (i read it just before i
decided not to renew my aha membership)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:27:32 -0700
From: Jim Cave <cave at psc.org>
Subject: AHA...

	The AHA could go a long way to improving by improving Zymurgy.  With the 
unfortuneate demise of Brewing Techniques, the AHA could attract membership 
by bringing Zymurgy up to a standard similar to BT.  I'd be happy with 
newsprint in black and white.  But the quality of articles has to improve. 
 The special issue this year was more of the same old.  With the utmost 
respect to those who wrote articles, how many times can we re-hash mashing 
at the basic level?

					Jim Cave




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:41:50 +0200
From: Mark van Bommel <markbom at xs4all.nl>
Subject: Elderberry beer

A word of caution on elderberries: some people are allergic to
elderberries. It also 
contains a substance which can be lactating. There is an easy solution
though: boil 
the elderberry juice before putting it in your secondary. You shouldn't use
too much
either, it can produce a catlike aroma. 

I've no idea how much is too much though. I have never used elderberries,
but I tasted 
one brewed by a friend, which was not bad at all, maybe a bit to
overpowering on the 
elderberry, but OK. Lovely color too.
An ancient recipe I advised to "take a hogshead of first and strongest wort
and boil in 
the same one bushel of pick'd elderberries full ripe...". So get out your
calculator!
I know a 'dry bushel' is 32 quarts but how much a hogshead is.. 
Besides, this might be a bad recipe. 

Hal, do you know what the appropriate numbers are?

Cheers,
Mark van Bommel
markbom at xs4all.nl


Mark van Bommel
markbom at xs4all.nl

There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an
idiot.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:30:30 -0500
From: Joe Gibbens <jgibbens at umr.edu>
Subject: Salvator

Hello,

Can anyone give me details on how beers like Salvator (a Paulaner beer, 
I think)are produced?  I'm looking for information on mashing procedure, 
and ferment temps and times. 

Joe Gibbens


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:23:02 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Server Fund

In HBD #3137 Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> wrote:


>Brewers.
>
>I understand that this adventure put the fund in the hole to the tune of
>~$2500, but we now have a new, improved and hopefully secure server.  This
>is probably on Pat's Visa, although I don't know.   If anyone wants to
send
>a contribution (and now that you've had three weeks without HBD, you have
a
>pretty good idea of what it means to you), checks should be made out to
Pat
>Babcock since the HBD has no bank account and sent to HBD Server Fund, PO
>Box 871309, Canton, MI 48187-6309.  My check's in the mail.

So's mine.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:03:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: sevetson at pathbox.wustl.edu (Bradley Sevetson)
Subject: Seattle brewing clubs

Dear HBDers:

        Glad to see the digest is back, and not a moment too soon.  I'm 
moving out to Seattle in two weeks and would like any possible info on the 
local homebrew scene---clubs, local suppliers, etc.  I've greatly enjoyed 
being a member of the St. Louis Brews, and will be impressed if Seattle has 
a club to rival it.  
        I work in a molecular biology lab (well, I did before graduating, 
anyway), and we have accumulated an impressive variety of beer yeast strains 
in our -80 freezer.  If any of the clubs in Seattle are keeping yeast banks, 
let me know, and we can talk about strains you might want that I could bring 
along.

                                        Thanks,
                                                Brad Sevetson
                                                St. Louis, MO



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:23:24 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Elderberry beer

HI

Hal writes about elderberry beer.
>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:07:48 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Elderberry beer

Yes Elderberries are good in beer. We brewed
a wheat beer last year and it was good. I've
already harvested berries for this year and
have them in the freezer awaiting for a 10 gal.
day.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I have a couple of questions:
How much elderberries do you use for a 5 gal batch???
When do you add them to the beer, boil, primary, secondary???
How do you treat them, ie do you pasturise???
Have you (or anyone) ever used elder flowers for beer brewing purposes???

I have made a non-alcoholic champagne with elder flowers, which makes a
very refreshing summer drink, but I have only heard of people using the
berries for making wine (black currant and elderberry wine is superb).

Cheers 
Pete



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:58:56 -0400
From: "Ed D'Anna" <edanna at webt.com>
Subject: Cobalt blue beer bottles?

Greetings, fellow fermenters!

Can anyone tell me if they have ever seen 12 oz. cobalt blue beer bottles? I
think I may have seen them, either in an advertisement or even in a catalog,
but now that I want them, I can't seem to find them. I know I can find 16
ounce cobalt blue bottles with the swing-top, but this is not what I want,
as I want to use them to bottle a batch of ice wine I am making, and would
like to use smaller, corked bottles. Preferably snazzy blue bottles!

Thanks in advance,
Ed D'Anna
Niagara Falls, NY

I don't know where I am with respect to Jeff Renner, but I'm damn near in
Pete Calinski's back yard!



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 02:34:20 +0000
From: Jamie <wyldecat at slip.net>
Subject: Bending 1/2" SS Tube.....



Bill was asking about bending 1/2" Stainless Tube - 

Grainger, McMaster, and Swagelok sell tube benders for 1/2" tube.
I don't remember the cost, but it's essentially a BIG version of 
what you used on the 3/8 (longer handles for more leverage)

Also, if you have a solid canister or post that's the right diameter,
you can fake it if your careful.  (This method isn't always as neat
looking, and being another Stainless Junkie, I like it looking neat too
:)

Either way, it's going to be a bit of work, but you can ease the pain
by hitting the area you'r going to bend with a torch to soften the metal 
up a bit.  Don't let it get red hot, and let it cool down slowly.


Regards, and Hoppy Brewing!
Jamie



- -- 

<----    http://www.pub-sf.com    ---->
<----      wyldecat at slip.net      ---->


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 22:35:24 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Bucket of holes; Mini-Kegs; Bottling Mead & PLambic

MHO on some recent topics on HBD:

I've had fine experiences using the plastic bucket full of holes, which
sits inside a stainless pot with a spigot.  I can't beat the price (free
from my local deli) and the only limitation is the amount of grain that
fits.  If I use more than 16 pounds, I have to do a double mash.  

Mini-kegs were the worst investment in brewing equipment that I ever
made.  When I used them, I spent more on CO2 cartridges than I do on
electricity for my brewing refrigerator.  Soda kegs are durable and
don't leak like a sieve.

Donald Gillesipie was wondering about bottling his mead.  Many strong
meads are simply going to be bottled uncarbonated.  One is often bumping
up near the limits of fermentability anyway.  With a mead that is below
10-12% alcohol, I wouldn't change the yeast, but simply bottle with
enough priming (1/2 cup corn sugar) to make it "sparkling."   Meads
shouldn't have as much carbonation as American Lagers and Belgian Ales.

Finally, Steven Jones is wondering about bottling his lambic.  If there
is still a pellicule on a lambic, I recommend waiting for it to collapse
and vanish before transferring or bottling.  The pellicule seals out the
undesired nasties while letting the desired microbes do their work, and
its presence is a sign that fermentation isn't finished.  I'm sure many
readers of HBD remember a picture in Zymurgy about 4 years ago of an
explosive Kriek that jumped about 12 feet from the bottle.

Cheers
Ted in NYC
Rennerian Coordinate: about 600 miles due east of A2


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 03:57:11 +0000
From: Jamie <wyldecat at slip.net>
Subject: Looking for Framboise recipe


Hey all - 

I'm looking for some recipes for Framboise.  Other
than being under the Lambic catagory, I haven't been
able to dig up much in the way of formulation or recipes.
Any info would be much appreciated.

TIA!
Jamie

- -- 

<----    http://www.pub-sf.com    ---->
<----      wyldecat at slip.net      ---->


Return to table of contents

---