HOMEBREW Digest #317 Wed 06 December 1989

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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Not worrying, just curious... (x2068) <jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
  stuck fermentation (again) and help with contaminated fermentation lock (Marty Albini)
  Cold temperature cloudiness (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  Some successes, a failure. (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #316 (December 05, 1989) (Ed Falk)
  dreaded chill haze (olson)
  Re:  Cold temperature cloudiness (boubez)
  Re:	cloudy at low temps (florianb)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 07:16:21 pst From: jrs21 - John Simpson (x2068) <jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu> Subject: Not worrying, just curious... I'm a novice brewer, just getting ready to bottle my second batch, and have a few questions. My first batch was pure extract, one 4 lb. can of MountMellick Hopped Brown Ale kit. It seemed to take an unusually long time (3 weeks) to ferment (single stage, glass carboy), but I didn't check the S.G. so it may have been done sooner. For the first week and a half after it was very malty and under hopped (a friend described it as "beer soda"). This is not a problem, I like malt. The second week and a half was even better, light malt character with a good hop flavor. Unfortunately, it now tastes like brown seltzer water :-(. No malt, no hops, nothing. I understand continued slow fermentation, but why did the hops disappear too? How can I avoid this in the future? (Grains, malto-dextrin, etc?) I used the dry ale yeast contained in the kit. If I can find a way to keep it from going bland on me I'll be using the same extract with some light malt added as the basis for a Gingered Ale, because (in it's early life) this brew had a nice, spicy flavor of it's own. My second batch was a bit more adventurous, Papazian's Elbro Nerkt (sp?) with a few minor substitutions -- all Cascade hops and Chocolate malt instead of Black Patent. Anyone know the story behind Elbro? I used a kitchen strainer to hold the grain as I steeped it and the hops as I boiled them, but it let quite a bit through. Is there a practical way to filter the wort as it's going into the carboy, or should I switch to two stage fermentation? Also, I used Wyeast (#1338 European) and after the foam fell I was left with a 1 inch thick cap of yeast/foam. It will not settle. I even shook it gently to break it up and it came back. Any suggestions? Also, is there any way to add body after the ferment in complete? Does anyone have a table of the characters of different types of hops? Has anyone else noticed that used Bud/Bud Light bottles tend to have more/grungier crud in them than other brands? What kind of luck have people had with Papazian's Stout recipes? Esp. Toad Spit Stout and the one (name?) that's supposed to be like Sheaf's. People in the midwest should check out: The Winemaker's Shop Open: Mon., Wed., Fri, & Sat. (Nina Hawranick) 3377 N. High Street Columbus, Ohio 43202 (614) 263-1744 They also do mail order. Great advice, reasonable prices, _fresh_ supplies, owners willing to taste beginner's homebrew and talk for an hour or so in the afternoon. May not be around much longer, too many Bud men in this town. Disclaimer: I'm just a satisfied customer. Thanks for your patience, advice and suggestions, John ************************************************************************** "The church is near, but the roads are icy... ...the tavern is far, but I will walk carefully." - a Ukrainian proverb jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu (until Dec. 15) simpson$j%dayton.bitnet at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu (receiving only) ************************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 7:44:11 PST From: Marty Albini <martya at hpsdl39> Subject: stuck fermentation (again) and help with contaminated fermentation lock I seem to be having very bad luck with Edme ale yeast. A few weeks ago I had a fermentation get stuck, and had to repitch to get it going again. Well, it's happened again, only this time repitching didn't even work. The beer is a stout, OG 1.068, and it has only gotten down to about 1.039 after a week. There are about ten pounds of John Bull light extract in the five gallons, so I expect it to wind up in the low twenties, if not lower. The funny thing is, this ferment started out faster and more vigorous than I've ever seen (a bubble a second after a couple hours) and the krausen (~2" worth) fell after one day. My only guess so far is that the temperature in the closet I brew in may have dropped into the low 60s at night, and this seems to knock the yeast out at least semi-permanently. Does anyone know if Edme normally behaves this way? Is there a threshold termperature at which it konks out? Could it be some thing else (pH, nuetrino density, the political climate)? I should probably add that throughout this process, I was relaxed, did not worry, and consumed several homebrews. > From: Ilaine - 'the maniac with the string' <estokes at lucy.wellesley.edu> > Subject: bubbles and vapor locks > > I am brewing my first batch of mead, and it seems to have developed > an obnoxios habit in the last week. There is a sort of suds at the top which > I am told is normal, I was also told I left plenty of space at the top of the > carboy. Nonetheless, the bubbles have been creeping all the way up and into the > lock. I was told if this happens I should change the water. So far no problem, > but I have had to do this every day for a few days now. I don't want to have > to open the thing too often, I have popped the reachable bubbles when I > cleaned the lock, but they are growing back quicker and quicker. I have a suggestion that might help (it works for me, anyway). Remove the fermentation lock, clean it, and refill with vodka. Now, even if it gets contaminated with krausen, nothing will grow in it, and it's guaranteed to be food-grade! 8<:^) There's also no problem if it gets sucked back into the fermenter, as there would be with a bleach solution or sulphite. - -- ________________________________________________Marty Albini___________ "To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks." phone : (619) 592-4177 UUCP : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya Internet : martya%hp-sdd at hp-sde.sde.hp.com (or at nosc.mil, at ucsd.edu) CSNET : martya%hp-sdd at hplabs.csnet US mail : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 09:08:58 MST From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts at Los Alamos National Laboratory) Subject: Cold temperature cloudiness > > I always use one large clear glass bottle so I can see if the beer is > clearing, and sure enough after 6-7 days it became nice and clear, about > the color of Bass. So I put a couple in the fridge to try. > > When I went to take them out in a few hours they were very cloudy, so I > assumed I shook them up somehow and replaced them in the fridge with some > clear ones that I put in very carefully. A few hours later I was shocked > to see these cloudy too. > > If fact, every time I cool any of these beers they become cloudy. Now all > the chemistry buffs are thinking - ah, a percipitate! That's probably what > it is, but what is it and why does it come out of solution at cold temp's? > Or is the yeast somehow getting stirred up by two hours of sitting in at 45 > degrees (not what I consider worth waking up for)? Most importantly how do > I avoid this problem in the future? The beer tastes pretty good, but > a little yeasty still. > > > Tim Harris > > I believe this is what is known as "protein haze" or "chill haze", an often-observed phenomenon when the proteins haven't been completely precipitated out after the boil. Known causes incude not boiling the batch long enough for the proteins to "cook" (usually 30 - 45 minutes). You can tell when this has happenend by watching the wort during the boil. After a while you will notice a flocculance in the wort which is the cooked protein. This is called the "hot break". Another, similar cause can be an insufficient "cold break". The flocculated proteins precipitate out better if the wort is cooled rapidly after the boil than if it is allowed to slowly cool over a period of hours. Suggestions: 1. Boil for a full hour. 2. Cool the wort with a wort chiller 3. Add 1/2 tsp Irish Moss during the last 1/2 hour of the boil, if you like. It helps precipitate proteins. 4. Don't worry about it: the chill haze doesn't affect the flavor of your beer. - --Doug ================================================================ Douglas Roberts | Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything Box 1663, MS F-602 | except temptation. Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545 | ... (505)667-4569 |Oscar Wilde dzzr at lanl.gov | ================================================================ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 10:54:50 MST From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts at Los Alamos National Laboratory) Subject: Some successes, a failure. Just thought I'd update you all on the last three batches I've made. One was a moderate success, one a fully-fledged resounding success, and a contaminated batch that had to be tossed. The moderate success was the batch made with 6# light unhopped syrup, 1# honey, and the whole hops mailed from Czechoslovakia by relatives of a Czeck friend of mine. Unfortunately, the hops were not fresh and had lost most of their charactor. I ended up boiling 1 oz of cascade pellets and adding the filtered extract to the secondary. The result was a slightly cloudy (because of the late hop addition), drinkable lighter beer that goes well with food. The resounding success was my modified version of Papazain's mash Silver Dollar Porter recipe that I posted a month or so ago. Not to sound unduly modest or anything, but this is the best beer I've ever made, and the best porter I've ever tasted. There is some detectable level of pride of craftsmanship in my evaluation, but DAMN THAT'S GOOD BEER! The failure was a mash batch that somehow got contaminated in the secondary. It became cloudy and developed a bad off flavor & odor. I had to toss it. Tonight, I'm going to make a Holiday Ale from the following recipe: 7 1/2# Klages 1 1/2# Crystal (90) 1/4# Chocolate 1/4# Black Patent 1/2# dextrin power (I don't have any Cara pils at the moment) 1 tsp each of cardomon, cinnamon, and ginger powders Grated rind of four oranges 1 1/2 oz Chinook - Boil 1 oz Willamette - Finishing 14 Grams of dry Whitbread yeast which I'll rehydrate first. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 11:06:09 PST From: falk at Sun.COM (Ed Falk) Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #316 (December 05, 1989) > I always use one large clear glass bottle so I can see if the beer is > clearing, and sure enough after 6-7 days it became nice and clear, about > the color of Bass. So I put a couple in the fridge to try. > > When I went to take them out in a few hours they were very cloudy, so I > assumed I shook them up somehow and replaced them in the fridge with some > clear ones that I put in very carefully. A few hours later I was shocked > to see these cloudy too. > It's called "chill haze". It's caused (I think) by insufficient boiling of the wort. It's proteins precipitating out of solution. If you leave it in the refrigerator for a few weeks it will clear again. I know because our first batch had it pretty bad. I think our second batch is ok and our third batch just got bottled so I don't know yet. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 15:08:57 EST From: olson at antares.cs.Virginia.EDU Subject: dreaded chill haze Tim Harris writes: >If fact, every time I cool any of these beers they become cloudy. Now all >the chemistry buffs are thinking - ah, a percipitate! That's probably what >it is, but what is it and why does it come out of solution at cold temp's? >Or is the yeast somehow getting stirred up by two hours of sitting in at 45 >degrees (not what I consider worth waking up for)? Most importantly how do >I avoid this problem in the future? The beer tastes pretty good, but >a little yeasty still. Tim, you are suffering from the Dreaded Chill Haze. There is some discussion in The Complete Joy of Home Brewing, to my recollection going like this: the wort contains a variety of things besides sugars and starches, notably tannin (from the grain husks) and proteins. At low temps the tannin bonds weakly to the protein and comes out of solution, creating a haze. (don't shoot me, chemists! I'm just a dumb brewer!) Now my understanding is that this has no effect on the flavor at all, unless you have a LOT of tannin. TCJoHB's unhelpful advice is "If the haze bothers you, try drinking from an opaque mug". But I like to see the color of my brew; presumably you do that by controlling either the protein or the tannin. To do the former, I believe you have to mash -- right, experts? Or maybe be more careful about excluding trub after the boil. To control tannin, you should at least be careful not to boil any grain -- put it into the wort cold, and strain it out when the wort finally reaches a boil. There's nothing us extract brewers can do about the tannins in the extract, though. Finally, you can do what I do: cheat! A couple of hours (12?) before bottling, stir in a tablespoon of Polyclar, which is basically pulverized plastic. This adsorbs tannins and sinks to the bottom. Works great for me, and also gives me that warm glow that comes from being politically incorrect... :-) - --Tom Olson (olson at virginia.edu) By the way, would some kind soul send me the current price and address for subscribing to Zymurgy? The back of my TCJoHB says $17, bet that's wrong... Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 16:06:53 EST From: boubez at bass.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Cold temperature cloudiness Quoting Papazian's book: "Chill haze is a result of a combining reaction between proteins and tannins. At room temperature it is soluble and remains invisible. At cooler temperatures it is no longer soluble and precipitate as a haze." He goes on to say that if it bothers you, drink from an opaque container :-). More seriously, you can control it by using Papain (an enzyme extracted from papaya skins), Polyclar, a plastic powder, or activated silica gel. I'm sure any homebrew shop will have something to help. Good luck. toufic Toufic Boubez boubez at caip.rutgers.edu Return to table of contents
Date: 05 Dec 89 17:43:59 PST (Tue) From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com Subject: Re: cloudy at low temps In Digest #316 Tim Harris inquires about cloudiness which sets in at frige temps. I understand that this is called "chill haze" and is due to the presence of unprecipitated proteins in the beer. Additives such as Irish moss during the last five minutes of boil, or polyclar or gelatin at bottling or during transfer to the secondary can help to clear up the problem. I've found that certain ingredients cause a chill haze that is nearly impossible to get rid of. For example, the Steinbart's syrup extracts, crystal malt (on occasion), wheat malt, and certain brands of extract syrup all have caused bodacious chill hazes for me at times. Case in point is a recent pilsner I made using 1/2 # of 40 L crystal (to be ornery) during the mash (the rest two-row). I have decided long ago that clear beer is an artificial requirement invented by wierdos during and after World War II, who mainly were interested in trying to culture a market who they believed to be composed mainly of women. They some how had the idea that women like lighter, clearer beer. Where they came up with that is beyond me, and it was probably an insult anyway to catagorize women like that. I don't care if my beer is clear any more than if cream, gravy, hamburgers, wood, books, or this computer are clear. What does clear do anyway? I think in this hobby, self satisfaction is all I'm after. If I dont get any awards for cloudy beer, it won't break my heart. Incidentally, I have made pale ales that were as clear as a crystal, but they didn't taste any better. Cheers! Florian Bell [On my way home to drink some cloudy beer.] Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #317, 12/06/89 ************************************* -------
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