---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RIMS ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Re RIMS and Stuck Mash (RobertJ)
  Reverse RIMS (Nathan Kanous)
  Glomular Bodies, Ray Daniels, fly ash. FWH, Joke (Dave Burley)
  RE: Aerating ("Kelly")
  Coors Winterfest (Eric Schoville)
  Re: Kinds of Brewers (Jeff Renner)
  NYC trip and recommendations ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Lager malts (was Budvar Malt, etc.) (Jim Cave)
  beer and nutrition (Alan McKay)
  beer pH/SS wort chiller ("St. Patrick's")
  Brew typing... (Pat Babcock)
  First All-grain Batch Suggetions ("Eric Bonney")
  German Beer ("Jack Schmidling")
  FWH Experiment ("Glen Pannicke")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:36:32 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: RIMS

I have been following the HERMS RIMS discussions, and here is my 2 pennies
worth.
I do not see the need to use oil when temperatures of 200F are discussed.
Water would be adequate.
I have been using quite successfully my old deep fat fryer filled with water
with a small stainless steel coil immersed in the water. I control the
heater with a simple on off thermostat. This has been successful for about
six brews so far. It is simple and cheap! The coil was secondhand from the
local junk store and the deep fat fryer was about to be thrown out by my
better half.

I reuse the coil later as a pre-cooler, by placing it in a cooler of iced
water,  to my immersion coil when cooling the wort. Life improved after I
fitted some quick disconnects, my only real expenditure on this bit.

I am now experimenting with the idea to sense the grain bed temperature and
use this to control the heater, so that I maintain a constant flow over the
grain.

Sandy Macmillan
Brewing in a DRY place


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 08:58:47 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re RIMS and Stuck Mash

Ron and Sharon <biohazrd at graceba.net> wrote

 .....
4.  When using a HERMS with the heat exchanger in the hot liquor tank, a
burner under the mash tun is essential for reaching mash-out.  Use the
HERMS to ramp up until the hot liquor is at sparge temp then turn on the
burner for the rest of the ramp, just a few minutes, and keep up the
flow rate if you are worried about scorching.

In our experience, with HLT at 180, raising mash to 165 is not a problem
and does not require heating of mash, although heat will speed the process.
Heat under mash will help hold mash temperature during the 45 to 60 min
sparge.

HLT temp is dropped quickly to 170 with the addition of about 1/2 - 1 gal
of tap water.


Bob


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 08:13:55 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Reverse RIMS

Hi All,
I was just reading Bill Frazier's post about controlled release dosage 
forms and reverse flow RIMS and something struck me.  The pump that I 
bought from Moving Brews (one of the March models) indicates that for 
proper function, it needs gravity to prime and "feed" the pump.  It 
specifically indicates in the included materials, not to use the pump to 
"suck" fluids up and out of a vessel as would be the case in a reverse 
RIMS.  I'm not a pump expert, and I suspect that once you created the 
siphon flow over the top of the mash vessel, the whole thing may become 
moot, but the "instructions" still stand.  You're not supposed to use the 
pumps to "draw" wort over and out of the vessel, but to push wort.  What 
say the engineers and pump experts?


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:23:06 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Glomular Bodies, Ray Daniels, fly ash. FWH, Joke

Brewsters:

Jethro and I both agree on the analysis of
slow starting and on most other things like
temperature and such, as we both earlier
indicated.

And if I was making up 100 grams of yeast
I would probably stir it also as Jethro does,
possibly even with with a mechanical mixer.
This will get good dispersion, just like you do
when you mix up bread dough. The thickness
of the slurry contributes to the mixing.

The situation for 5 or 12 grams of yeast is
 totally different in that the slurry is not thick
and will not mix out easily by mechanical
action in the amount of 100-110F water often
recommended. If you use a smaller amount
of water you can get the effect of cooling of
the water below the suggested re-hydration
temperature due to the stirrer and normal
cooling of the container. So use the cup of
water as recommended to keep the
temperature up during the rehydration phase of
10 minutes.

If you try Jethro's suggested techinque
of stirring first with the recommended amount
of water you can get "gloms" or "fisheyes"
 - as they are called in the paint trade-
of undistributed yeast. This can lead to
an even lower pitching rate which was my
point.  I know, because, unlike Jethro, I
have experienced this.  I also know that if
you let this yeast settle into the water as
individual pellets and then stir you will get
a smooth slurry and maximize your pitching
rate with the amount of yeast you use. 

- -----------------------------------------
I agree with Jethro that Ray Daniels is a
great addition to AHA if he can editorialize
as well as he can write great books. I
only hope his hands will not be tied,
so he can help  lead the AHA out of the
elitist wilderness through which it has been
wandering for many years. This has
crippled a potentially really great organization.
I also hope they also stop making the newbie
wait three months to get their first copy of
Zymurgy, as they did to me with no apology.
The experience with Fix's book doesn't
sound like much has changed.

Good Luck Ray and pay attention to your
customers!
- -------------------------------------
AJ says in  a weak moment of his excellent
dissertation "sodium carbonate ( fly ash)"
actually sodium carbonate is soda ash.
Fly ash is those black specks I used to get
on my car when I lived downwind from the
Columbia Southern Chemical plant one
summer, long ago.
- ------------------------------------
On the subject of FWH, never having done
one yet, I can see theoretically two areas
where the addition of hops before the boil
might be different than a normal addition
after the boil and in stages.

The work I have seen to present is that only
the IBU has been examined and found to be
increased. No work has been done on the
tannins which is where I suspect the major
difference lies. I suggest Louis spend some
of his time on this subject, examining tannin
content, as well as IBUs, in his FWH experiment.

Before the boil there are a lot of uncoagulated
albuminous proteins which denature on boiling
and are the primary cause of the boilovers as
they denature and floc to the surface in the form
of a stiff foam. 


If the hops are in before the boil, it is conceivable
that hop tannins will react with these proteins and
go out of solution with the boilup. The smoother
taste of FWH beers, even at a higher IBU could
be due to the loss of these tannins which may
not react with other LMW albuminous proteins 

and the like in boiled beer. Also, before the boilup
the pH is higher than after the boil, so this would
possibly increase the extraction of the tannins.

Secondly, it should come as no surprise that the
IBU's are higher for the longer time in the wort. The
isomerization of bittering acids is a slow step,
so the longer time will give better extraction and
more hop presence of the good bittering and
flavoring kind.
- -----------------------------------------------
One day, at a local buffet, a man suddenly called out, "My
 son's choking!  He swallowed a quarter!  Help!  Please,
 anyone!  Help!"
 

 A man from a nearby table stood up and announced that he
 was quite experienced at this sort of thing. He stepped over
 with almost no look of concern at all, wrapped his hands
 around the boy's gonads, and squeezed.  Out popped the
 quarter. The man then went back to his table as though
 nothing had happened.
 

 "Thank you!  Thank you!" the father, cried. "Are you a
 paramedic?"
 

 "No," replied the man. "I work for the Internal Revenue Service."
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Keep on Brewin'



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:44:18 -0600
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: Aerating 

Well, I believe a lot of people use pure some kind of aeration stone...and
some with pure O2....but, I just do it the old fashioned way.....I pick up
the carboy covering the hole with one hand....and shake the hell out of it.
Seems to work just fine for me.........

Welcome to the group and homebrewing!!!

Kelly
New Orleans, LA

A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention,
With the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.

- ------------------------------------------------
You said:

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:55:08 -0500
From: Jacob Bogie <JBogie at outpost.com>
Subject: Aerating

Good Day Brewers!

  BREWED MY FIRST BATCH!!!!

  I just wanted to ask a quick question to start....

  Through reading the archives I have found a lot of people aerate their
wort after pitching the yeast. What is the most common method of doing this?
I have a slotted spoon that I used to stir the wort as I pitched the
yeast...OK? Also the trip down to the basement from my kitchen probably
stirs it up a bit. Is aeration an ideal thing to do or is it all preference?

- ------------------------------------------------------------







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:13:54 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Coors Winterfest

Anyone tried Coors Winterfest this year?  I bought my first six pack
last night, and they surely have changed the recipe.  This beer is
definitely not a lager, IMO.  Anyone have the facts?  I am sorry to see
one of my favorite seasonal beers go to hell.

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:21:54 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Kinds of Brewers

Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> asked

>What kind of brewer are you?

I'm a chronic brewer.  About once every 4-6 weeks for 20 years now.  Less
often for a few years before that.  Not quite a chain brewer, though.
Couldn't drink that much.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:00:42 -0500 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: NYC trip and recommendations

Hi all:

I'm heading down to new York City this weekend and was hoping to get some
recommendations for drinking establishments.  I am especially looking to
drink on tap and also find a store to get some Hop Devil and Hop Pocket if I
can find them.

I'll also be hopefully heading to the Burp Castle as well.

Other ideas?

Thanks,

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY

PS. I need a recommendation for lunch on Sat and Sunday.  Places with good
tappings would be nice.  Any help is appreciated.  Private email is fine


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:48:37 -0800
From: Jim Cave <cave at psc.org>
Subject: Lager malts (was Budvar Malt, etc.)

	Lynn, (St Pats?) Jim Liddil and Jim Busch discussed this topic somewhat at 
length.  I'll just put my oar in the water.  Until recently, the german 
pilsner has been one of those unattainable quests of mine over the years. 
 The error that I made in reviewing these beers was that the signature of 
the beer was "Hop" flavour and aroma.  I now believe it is really the malt 
that makes the difference.  I think you can make a better pilsner with high 
quality european malts AND, say, high quality American crystal and Ultra 
hops than you can with high quality North American malts and high quality 
tettnangs, hallertau and Saaz hops from Europe.  At least I found that I 
finally attained that "roundness", "roof of the mouth" flavour in my 
pilsner when I finally used good quality malt (Chariot from Beeston). 
 Incedently I used a combination of Tettnangs and Ultra with the late 
hopping additions rather restrained.

	I would really like to try the finest European malts.  Unfortuneately they 
aren't available in Vancouver, and I won't get them at just "any price." 
 However, Chariot is used by some german brewers apparently.

				Jim Cave



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:40:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: beer and nutrition


Hi folks,

I know this has been addressed many times, but a search of the archives 
seems to bring up all sorts of stuff on proper yeast "nutrition", but 
not really much on beer in one's diet.

I just had an argument with a friend at lunch about beer and nutrition.
They of course maintained that beer is bad for you, and extremely fattening.
I of course maintained that beer is actually pretty good for you, and it's
generally the barfood which goes with it that's fattening.

Any good websites out there to help me with my argument?

thanks,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:44:56 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: beer pH/SS wort chiller

The Narziss information regarding beer pH and modern malts was summarized
in a Brauwelt article (February 1998).
This is same article in which he suggests doughing in at 60+C or so much
like Jim Busch noted.
There is a lot of other really nice information in that article about a
host of subjects.

The issue of beer pH is one that I became particularly focussed on for
other reasons about the same time.
I went around checking pH of wheat beers for a month or so because I felt,
in general,
American made hefeweizens were not as crisp tasting as German.  I carried a
pH meter into
brewpubs and beer bars.  I suggest being discrete if you do this and don't
forget temp and carbonation
influences on pH.  Results indicated that a) You can detect a 0.1 pH
difference in beer pH quite easily and
b)American made hefeweizens are, on the whole, a little higher in pH than
German.

The Narziss article came out shortly after this, as well as a fine article
in the New Brewer by David (not Michael) Lewis (January/February 1998)
specifically about beer pH and its relationship to wort ph and mash pH.
Perhaps the most interesting conclusion of Lewis article was that
controlling mash pH was not
 sufficient in controlling beer pH. In other words, you can hit all the
'right' mash pH's and your beer may still
come in at too high a pH.  It is important to monitor the mash pH and make
adjustments there if needed.

At the risk of being presumptuous (and wrong), I think this information has
been largely ignored
both in homebrewing and brewpub/microbrewing.

I have become a pretty strong proponent of adding acid to the wort or
before bottling if needed,
particularly for wheat beers.  Celis adds acid (can't remember if its
acetic or lactic) to Celis White.
Waterloo Brewing Company in Austin won gold at GABF this year in Belgian
beers with a sour
beer in which they added acid (acetic or lactic?).

It should be noted that adjusting wort pH applies equally to extract brews
and grain brews.

You can test for yourself the effect by simply spiking your beer in the
glass with a little vinegar (white)
or dilute lactic or phosphoric.

I would be willing to scan and make pdf versions of these articles but I'm
not sure about the legality of doing that.
Are back articles of New Brewer available on line?  Can someone please
advise that knows about copyright law?

Marc Sedam was wondering about efficiency of stainless steel immersion
chiller vs copper.
Stainless is not as efficient for reason he suspects--thermal conductivity.
This chiller is for those
who worry about copper and the potential of oxidation catalyzed by
CuI/CuII.  Also,  stainless
is prettier than copper after use.

Jim Liddil writes "sure hope they (stpats) made or make a contribution to
the hbd server fund. :-)

I have not but I will.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas		http://www.stpats.com
Brewers Supply		512-989-9727
1828 Fleischer Drive            512-989-8982   facsimile
Austin, Texas 78728








Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:25:23 -0800
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Brew typing...

Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> asked
>What kind of brewer are you?

I'm afraid I currently fall into the classification of burnout brewer.  I 
*USED* to be a foaming-at-the-mouth technobrewer, but simply can't find the 
time anymore. I do hope to become at least a chronic brewer again, but lots 
of things need to settle down beforehand. Sigh...

 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:57:42 -0500
From: "Eric Bonney" <ebonney at fuse.net>
Subject: First All-grain Batch Suggetions

Hi All,

    I have been sort of surfing this digest for about a week or so and
decided that I need some help.  It appears that Santa is going to be nice to
me this Christmas and bring me my last few items needed to complete my home
brew kitchen.  If so, I would like to make a couple of batches in January
and need some ideas on some good beers to start out with.  I have read the
January issue of BYO and was thinking of doing a Barley Wine for the new
year and then some kind of Ale for this year.

    If I decided to do a Barley Wine, how many pounds of grain can fit into
your typical 5 gallon Grott cooler?  I think I may have to modify the recipe
and use some extract in order to fit it all in the cooler.

    Also, I have a mead question.  I have a mead that has been in the third
fermenter now for about 4 or 5 weeks.  The air lock activity has dropped to
about 3 or 4 bubbles per minute and I was wondering if it is ok to attempt
to bottle yet?

    Well thanks for the help,

 -Eric A. Bonney
Prejudism is a learned trait, what are YOU teaching your children?!?!



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:29:49 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: German Beer

My wife just got back from three weeks in Germany and brought back some
interesting comments.

The first thing she wanted after getting home was a glass of good beer.  Nothing
she had over there could match the World's Greatest Beer.  But of course, that
is why it is called what it is called.

I have not been there for  years and I pined for a Loenbrau Dark as it was
before Miller started making it in Milwaukee.  While in Munich, she took great
pains to find the Loenbrau Haus and gave up.  Says it does not exist anymore and
Loenbrau Dark does not exist either.  This is hard to believe. Can anyone
confirm this?

She had fun at the HB Haus but said the beer was only mediocre.  I guess this is
no surprise.

She liked Wurzburger Hofbrau  Pilsner but could not find the brewery when she
was in Wurzburg.  Anyone know where it is? And what is the connection between
this and the Hofbrau Haus.

Knew I should have gone with. Never send a lady to do a man's job.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:46:10 -0500
From: "Glen Pannicke" <gpannicke at email.msn.com>
Subject: FWH Experiment 

In HBD #3187, Louis Bonham asks for comments on a proposed experiment to test
"whether one should calculate IBU utilization numbers from a FWH addition by
just assuming your full boil time, or whether the utilization goes up or down
materially from this number."  Seizing the opportunity to throw in my own 2
cents, I offer this...

Since your hypothesis challenges the rate/utilization of FWH contact time vs.
boil contact time, keep the total contact time of the hops with the wort
equivalent.  Only vary the contact time of the hops with the wort at the FWH
temperature and at the boiling temperatures.  If the rate/utilization is
equal, then you will see very little variability between the values obtained
from the ASBC test. If rate/utilization is different, then you should see a
correlation when the numbers are graphed.

Example Hopping Schedule:
(Which probably looks like crap after posting, but looks fine on my end)
============================================================================
Batch | FWH Temp | FWH Time | Ramp T|  Boil Time  | Total Time| Hop Addition
============================================================================
A     |   N/A    |   N/A    |   N/A |    60       |  60 min   | At boil
B     |   176F   |   0 min  |	x min	| 60 - x      |  60 min   | At ramp up
C     |   176F   |   5 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 5  |  60 min   | At 176
D     |   176F   |  10 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 10 |  60 min   | At 176
E     |   176F   |  15 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 15 |  60 min   | At 176
F     |   176F   |  20 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 20 |  60 min   | At 176
G     |   176F   |  25 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 25 |  60 min   | At 176
H     |   176F   |  30 min  |	x min	| 60 - x - 30 |  60 min   | At 176

This design takes into account that your method keeps the FWH hops in for the
boil.  Most FWH hopping schedules I've seen include pre-boil contact of around
an hour at lautering temps (approx 170 F).  Determine your estimated ramp up
time (time from 176 F to boil) during Batch B. Consider the ramp up time to be
a constant of the FWH schedule or measure it each time.  Subtract the ramp up
time and the constant 176 F FWH contact time from the 60 min total contact
time to give the boil time.

Use identical volumes, kettles and burners to keep the ramp up time and
evaporation rates consistent (or re-use the same equipment).  Closely monitor
and adjust the FWH and the boil temperatures so that they stay on target.  The
schedules I listed are only a suggestion.  You may want to test more or less.

As for the number of tests, I'd only do the experiment once, but I'd have the
ASBC tests run in triplicate and take the average.  I'd also can the
fermentation step as it is just another source of possible variability.  All
things considered equal, losses of hop bitterness to trub, yeast and other
"wonders" of fermentation should be a fairly constant between your
fermentation setup and methods - not your brewing methods.  At this point
you're looking mainly at the differences in extraction between the two
methods.  But products achived during FWH are believed to be different than
those created during boil extraction...  Your choice.  Grab a sample for
testing and then ferment them seperately for a qualitative test or combine
them, but don't waste good wort ;-)

Please note that there are a number of ways to do a mini experiment like this
on a homebrewer's scale and you'll probably get a barrage of suggestions here.
To do this properly you would really have to do multiple runs with different
contact times at different gravities to test rate and utilization.  But by
then you'd have enough data to establish a formula and no more $$ in your
pocket for making good homebrew :(

Personally for me, I wing it on the first batch with a rough estimate and then
adjust it on subsequent batches based upon the good old taste bud analysis.
I've just tried my first batch with FWH.  I  lautered the runnings onto 1/2 of
the total bittering hops and then removed the bag when I set it to boil (about
1 hour).  I added the second 1/2 of the bittering hops after the hot break
dropped (10 minute boil) and then boiled for an hour.  I was counting on the
rate & utilization to be equivalent.  If it's not, I'll adjust it accordingly
the next time around.

BTW, thanks.  Now I'll be reading arguments here about test methodologies for
weeks
to come.  I come here to escape my job, darn it! <grin>

Glen

================================
Millstone Alehouse
alehouse at homepage.com
http://alehouse.homepage.com
================================



Return to table of contents

---