---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Genetic modification / Munich malt extraction / Kraeusenless starters / early racking ("George de Piro")
  CO2 Bottles ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Aspirin Beer (Eric R Lande)
  yeast culturing/flocculant yeast from bottle ("Alan Meeker")
  CO2 fire extinguisher reuse ("Bruce Garner")
  FOR - Friend of Rodney (David Sweeney)
  Rims ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: Feelings on early racking? (Jeff Renner)
  Bottling day (Matthew Comstock)
  Luddites, GM and French Ag Marketing (Dave Burley)
  HERMS and hard piping ("Micah Millspaw")
  Racking and Oxygen ("Paul Smith")
  Too much head (MarvPozdol)
  Competition announcement (John Larsen)
  Old Peculier Recipe Clone sought ("Franklin.Tom")
  1999 was a very good year (Edward Seymour)
  tannins ("Paul Niebergall")
  Use of Irish Moss and Break Bite (MIKE BRANAM)
  Re.:  Feelings on early racking ("Sean Richens")
  Laglander Dry Malt Extract & Yeast Starters (JDPils)
  Lack of Krausan (Bob Wilcox)
  Robin, telling it like it is (AlannnnT)
  Dave Burley And His Cubby House Brewery ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Beer Haiku! And a friend returns... (Pat Babcock)
  reusing Co2 fire extinguishers ("Don Van Valkenburg")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:30:51 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: Genetic modification / Munich malt extraction / Kraeusenless starters / early racking

Hi all,

Glen Panicke writes:

"Say that I were to
genetically manipulate
 a strain of yeast to contain a plasmid which facilitates this AA
production, then I might
not have as much to worry about regarding my FAN levels.  My beer might be
better due
to the reduced diacetyl even though my wort has a low FAN content.  This new
strain might
make for better tasting beer.  It might enhance the fermentation rate and
improve my
yeast's quality of life ;-)"

Back to me:

It might also out-compete all yeasts in the wild and end up being the only
choice you have for brewing.  It would spell the death of Lambic!  While
that may be a bit of hyperbole, it is something that has not always been
considered when modifying plants and such.  Unlike the traditional process
of selective breeding that people have practiced for centuries, one can use
modern molecular genetics techniques to insert genes into an organism that
would not otherwise get there.  Multicellular organisms are complex things.
Altering one bit of their biochemistry can have unforeseen (and undesirable)
effects.

Even the seemingly innocent act of inserting a gene for insect resistance
into a potato plant can have grievous environmental consequences.  Will the
insects that normally eat that plant all die, or will some individuals that
are resistant to the plant toxin live to reproduce, creating a new breed of
resistant insect?  This isn't science fiction, it happens in the real world.
People tend to ignore the big picture for short term benefit.  Why not?  We
have relatively short lifespans.  Our mistakes will be somebody else's
problems...
- ------------------------
Enough ranting, on to beer:

Pete C. from Albany asks if it is normal to get poor extraction from Munich
malt (Weyermann, specifically).  No, it isn't.  The specs for coarse grind
extract for either light or dark Weyermann Munich malt are only a couple of
percent lower than their Pils malt.  One can expect a less attenuable (is
that a word?) wort when using large quantities of high-kilned malts, but
extract doesn't suffer too much.  As Jim Busch wrote, too high a mash
temperature will reduce extraction, but I have found that mashing in as high
as 152F will yield good results.
- ----------------------
Brian Dixon asks about Kraeusenless starters, wondering if it is OK.  This
has happened to me a couple of times, and I have no idea why (useful, huh?).
I used the yeast anyway, and the resulting beer was fine.  If I ever figure
out why this occurred I'll let everybody know.
- ---------------------
Brian also asks about early racking to remove the cold break.  I do not
advocate this for several reasons:  Firstly, it is extra work, and I am
basically a lazy person.  Secondly, the benefit of cold break removal is
quite arguable.  Many (I dare say most) commercial and homebrewers don't
remove cold break and make very good beer (or if it is bad, it is for other
reasons).  Thirdly, this added step can be potentially harmful to the beer.
If fermentation is already going, the extra aeration will not be desirable
(sure, the yeast will love it, but your primary fermentor is not the place
to be growing yeast).  You also risk contamination of the wort by adding an
extra transfer.

As a homebrewer, I occasionally removed cold break and never noticed a
benefit.  As a commercial brewer, I have not tried to remove cold break and
have not noticed any deleterious effects on beer flavor.  Ultimately, the
choice is yours.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:36:03 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: CO2 Bottles


Kurt wrote

20 lb C02 bottle.  How different
are the fittings?  Did you need anything special to adapt it?  Hydro
test sounds like a good idea.

I have used several CO2 bottles successfully. A machine shop is required to
tap a different thread into the extinguisher to take a standard CO2 valve.
Hydro test is also a must for your own safety and also your supplier may
well refuse to fill it until he sees the test result.
Costs will vary but mine were as follows

Hydro test to 3500 psig	US$ 15
Machining		US$ 15
New CO2 vale 		US$ 30

Sandy Macmillan
Brewing in a dry place



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:04:26 -0500
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Aspirin Beer

In HBD #3211 Brian Dixon says that "My last batch had what I describe as
a _very slight_ aspirin bitter note to it."  

Brian, you're a genius!  Now you can drink all you want and never have to
worry about a headache again.  Also, your beer may reduce your risk of a
heart attack.  And now you can drink beer when you are sick and it will
reduce your fever.  But don't drink it on an empty stomach or it might
eat your stomach lining.  :-)


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA
Brewery to be named when I finish it


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:28:23 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: yeast culturing/flocculant yeast from bottle

Jacob asked some questions about yeast culturing:

> My apartment is cool...around 64 degrees F year round so my starters
usually
> take 2-3 days to krausen, but the yeast slants? Can they incubate and
> reproduce in this temp?

Sure, in fact it is probably safe to say that growing your slants at cooler
temps is a better practice than growing them at temps that are too high.

> One other thing...When I "culture" or inoculate a plate to clean the
> strain...what is the best characteristics to look for in the new yeast
> colonies? Are there tell tale signs of a bad colony? I have a lot of
bottle
> conditioned yeast to clear out.

Colony morphology will vary from strain to strain but in general what you
really want to see is consistency across the plate. The colonies should all
show similar size, color, texture, shape, etc... guys who are "outliers"
are likely to be either mutants or contaminants and should be avoided!
- -----------------------------
  William Graham has some strange flocculent yeast cultured from a bottle:

>However, this stuff is the
> most flocculent stuff in existence - when I shake up the growler, all I
> get are plastic-y looking chunks floating around.
> So, seeing as this yeast is heavily flocculent, do any 'o you think
> this is merely a "priming" yeast, and one I should probably not brew
> with ( and expect good "English" qualities )?

Bill, I had the same experience with yeast cultured from a bottle of Otter
Creek last year. The conclusion I came to was that this was a wild yeast
contaminant. I'd be very careful in trying to use this yeast, if your going
to do it you might want to do so with a small test batch...

 -Alan




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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:51:17 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: CO2 fire extinguisher reuse

Kurt writes:

"I'm ashamed to say I never thought of this.  I have an old fire
extinguisher that' about the size of a 20 lb C02 bottle.  How different
are the fittings?  Did you need anything special to adapt it?  Hydro
test soujnds like a good idea."

Kurt,

When the fire extinguisher stuff have been taken off you have nothing but a
metal bottle with threads inside the top. You need to buy a valve assembly
and a regulator. When you take the cylinder to be refilled you leave the
regulator at home. A hydro test is cut and dry. It will be needed if the
last one stamped on the top is out of date. Because of the laws and the
safety issue for the people that fill the cylinder and carry it out to you
to pay, the CO2 supplier will not fill it otherwise. Most of the CO2
suppliers in Madison, WI can supply used cylinders, install new valves,
regulators and do hydro testing. I got my cylinder at a wholesaler of fire
fighting equipment and my valve, testing and gas at a welding supplier. The
regulator was from a homebrew shop. One of the reasons an extinguisher
cylinder may show up on the used market is that its hydro test is expired.

Bruce




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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:14:35 -0600 
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: FOR - Friend of Rodney

>>>Has anyone ever met Mr. Morris?
It would be an interesting discussion if he would care to visit us here on 
the HBD.

Please invite Rodney to join our discussion of the evolution of this "Rube 
Goldberg business of complicating something that is inherently simple", AKA 
RIMS,  if you know him or somebody who does.........<<<

Rodney lives here in College Station, Texas. I've met him lots of times at
beer tastings and such.  I'll see if I can't locate him and ask him to
join in the fray.

David Sweeney
Adaptive Technology Services
Texas A&M University
David at stulife2.tamu.edu <mailto:David at stulife2.tamu.edu> 


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:59:29 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Rims

This bounced so if it shows up twice, ignore it...

From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>

>Well, lets see if I can get the last word in on Jack. I doubt it, but
here goes.

Nice try but even if I was wrong I would have to acknowledge my mistake.

Jack says:

>>Your approach assumes that power never fails, surges don't happen and
electronic gadgets only die on que. The EZDictionary defines "sense"
as never assuming the above.

>Hmmm..the EZDICTIONARY (tm) is a trademark of Zymico, and you must
acknowledge that when using the term. ;^)

One does not need to be a lawyer to see that the Zymico trademark is not the
same as mine.
Note upper case use throughout.  You will also note that the trademark on the
MALTMILL is based on all upper case.  It sort of a jobs program for lawyers.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:11:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Feelings on early racking?

"Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com> asks

>I've often considered racking after about 8 to 24 hours into a primary
>ferment to take the wort off the bulk of the trub, but hesitate because I've
>read that the fatty acids in the trub are beneficial to the yeast.  It just
>seems 'good' that the primary would only be exposed to good clean yeast
>sediment once the growth period of the yeast is over, and I believe (if
>memory serves) that the fatty acids are only helpful up through the finish
>of the growth period.  Thoughts?  If I want to try a first racking that is
>to take place as soon as exposure to the trub (non-yeast sediment portion of
>it) is not helpful anymore, then when should it take place?  Is this a good
>idea, or a bad idea?  Why?

I've done this in the past for several reasons and was pleased with the
results.  This is part of what "dropping" beer is - a traditional British
practice in some breweries.  In dropping, the racking is done with vigorous
aeration, which some yeasts require, at high kraeusen.  It can also result
in elevated diacetyl, which is part of some house styles.  The other reson
for dropping is just what you suggest - removing the beer from the trub.
This results in very clean sedimented yeast for repitching.

I understand that this is also done in some German lager breweries after ~8
hours, although I think it may be before pitching.

I don't bother now for several reasons.  I don't care for diacetyl (it can
be done without aeration, though, and so this is not an inevitable result),
and I use top cropping ale yeasts, so I get clean yeast that way.  Besides,
since I recirculate through a hop bed while I'm immersion chilling, I get
very little trub carried over to the fermenter.

Sorry about your aspirin-like bitterness.  Wonder if it might be oxidation?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 06:44:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bottling day

Howdy,

Thought I'd tell you all a story.  I think it is too long to post so I
put it here:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Canyon/8431/story.html

Also, a tip for idiots like me who forget to take a gravity reading
before sealing up the fermenter.  It is not perfect, but it probably
will work if you do full-wort-boils.  I never get all the liquid
transferred into the fermenter, especially if I siphon it in.  I just
read the OG from this left over wort.  But it usually has a ton of
sludge in it.  I filtered the liquid through a paper towel set inside a
wire mesh kitchen strainer.  It gave me moderately clear wort and a
gravity reading.

Enjoy the story.  Laugh at my mistakes.

Matt


__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:13:22 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Luddites, GM and French Ag Marketing

Brewsters:

I didn't call anyone a Luddite. But, Robin,
if the shoe fits...

Maybe we should all live in the city so
we can take those inefficient buses
which convert polluting coal to
electricity at a certain efficiency and
then convert electricity to mechanical
motion at a further loss of energy or
maybe ride those stinky, polluting
diesel buses.

How could cows be hurt by a product they 
already produce?  Let's see the proof
and not rumor. None exists.

As far as your explanation about how
farmers will be poorer as a result of these
developments, explain to me why the
Brazilians are surreptitiously ( and
against the law) growing GM soybeans
using this latest technology. Is it to
lose money and go to jail?

How many Monarch Butterflies do
you know that pollinate corn?
Answer:  None.

I was perusing Wheeler and Protz'
"Brew your Own British Real Ale"
looking for brewing inspiration and
came across this on Page 76:

"The French, in characteristic style
started a smear campaign against British beer,
probably because it was seriously affecting
the wine industry.  In 1852, a certain M. Payer,
a French government chemist, publicly
declared that the British brewers were using
Strychnine as a hop substitute. The
French Strychnine manufacturers backed up
his  claim by confirming that they did indeed
export considerable quantities of strychnine
to the brewers of Burton-onTrent. Other French
scientists claimed that it is impossible to make
beers of such soundness and clarity  without
strychnine.( Does it sound like the French had
a technology gap in brewing? DRB).

This was eventually disproved, but
at coinsiderable damage to the reputation
of British beer both at home and abroad."

If you have ever tasted French beer, you may
now understand why it tastes like crap. They
reject any new developments out of hand, but
worst of all they try to destroy better products
which they can't make. AND the French
government supports them.

The Appellation Controllee is a classic
example of market control in which the
volume of wine entering the market is
controlled by a strict acreage limit and
to the benefit of a few powerful chateaus
who were in political control in the
1850s.  Only the developments in the 
US which ignored French "terrior" 
arguments proved we can make better
wines. Now French winemakers are
racing to catch up. But they didn't
for over a hundred years, because 
it was not to their benefit. The result:
crappy wines from France for most
wine drinkers. It is changing today
because of technology
improvements.

Things haven't changed much have they?
Mad cow disease, milk, soybeans, wine,
cheese... anything to maintain or capture a 
market position even if it means outright
lies, robbing the consumer of better and
cheaper  products and destroying
reputations. The French have been doing
it for centuries.

Today's Rumor ( er... News)  Media
helps them along immeasurably. 

The real danger here is that such
marketing tactics will set back beneficial
developments for decades if not longer.

Get some facts on a subject before
you make up your mind. Just because 
you don't know something, doesn't
mean it is not known. Do some research.
It won't hurt as much as you might fear.
Maybe it won't be as much fun as
criticising without facts, but you will be
able to make intelligent decisions
about your life. 

Did you know the word "gullible" is not
in the dictionary?


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


 .


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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:15:52 -0600
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at SILGANMFG.COM>
Subject: HERMS and hard piping

A while back I posted an offer for a ppt file about my HERMS. 
Many of the requestors asked for additional info about the rest
 of the system. (thanks to all for the positive feedback)
 I had some free time and complied a file about the hard
 piping for the whole setup. As before, just email your request 
and I will send it. This time the file size is much smaller and 
in html format. Also if you could not get the first HERMS ppt 
because of the large file size, it too is now in available html.


Micah Millspaw - brewer at large




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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:58:45 -0600
From: "Paul Smith" <pksmith_morin at msn.com>
Subject: Racking and Oxygen

Brian writes:

>>If I want to try a first racking that is
to take place as soon as exposure to the trub (non-yeast sediment portion of
it) is not helpful anymore, then when should it take place?  Is this a good
idea, or a bad idea?

Brian, in my opinion, I think you are right to lean towards getting your beer
off the flocculated portion early.  Yeast will utilize the fatty acids during
the respiration phase, but oxygen is your true key to "clean" growth, not
fatty acids (clean meaning that the respiration will not also involve the
production of off-compounds, as with a "fatty acid" respiration).

All that's happening with your flocculated yeast is that they are dying -
kicking up your pH, kicking out guts in a frenetic attempt to stay alive, and
thus kicking out off flavor.  Gruesome!

That being said, at the brewery where I worked we used to allow a three day
ferment, then we dumped the yeast (out the bottom of a unitank - we also
dumped on day 9).  Keep in mind that the pitching volume, oxygenation, and
yeast viability/vitality was such that at the end of three days fermentation
was pretty much over.  In other words, although the yeast is doing no good,
there is probably little harm in waiting a short period post-ferment.

Additionally, unless you have a completely closed fermentation/racking system,
you risk allowing in contaminants to a fertile environment if you rack too
early.  Allowing the beer to settle down to a lower gravity prior to racking
will mitigate against contamination during transfer, due to the higher
ethanol, the greater production of dissolved C02, and the lower pH.

Cheers,

Paul Smith





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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:44:27 EST
From: MarvPozdol at aol.com
Subject: Too much head 

IFrom  Marv Pozdol  
Cleveland, Ohio

I am not into the grain mashing etc that most of you are doing.  I am still 
using kits and do not intend to go into mashing in the near future. Lately, 
my American Amber and American Lite have too much of a head.   Lots of foam 
in glass and sometime the head "eases" out of the bottle.  What may cause 
this?

I find most posting interesting but well beyond my experience.

Thank you.  
Marv Pozdol at aol.com


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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 12:33:43 -0500
From: John Larsen <jlarsen at nxus.com>
Subject: Competition announcement

This is to announce the Big Bend Brew-Off 2000, an AHA-sanctioned
competition presented by the North Florida Brewers League of
Tallahassee, Florida.  We will be using the 1999 BJCP style guidelines.
Judging will take place on Saturday, January 22, 2000 at the Buckhead
Brewery and Grille in Tallahassee.  Entries will be accepted between
January 3, 2000 and January 14, 2000.

To obtain the official rules, including shipping address, fees, etc. and
to print out a copy of the entry form, go to our web site at
www.tfn.net/~northflo/bbo.html.  To obtain a copy of the 1999 BJCP style
guidelines, go to www.bjcp.org.  If you want to judge or steward,
contact me by e-mail and I'll have the judge director contact you to
provide pertinent details.

This is our 4th year running this event and it has turned into a nice
competition.  We expect to have 125-150 entries this year.

John Larsen
President, North Florida Brewers League
Organizer, Big Bend Brew-Off 2000



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:43:19 -0500 
From: "Franklin.Tom" <frankli1 at niehs.nih.gov>
Subject: Old Peculier Recipe Clone sought

Hi All,

I've searched the web and the HBD archives for an Old Peculier Clone, but I
haven't found a recipe with high reviews.  Anybody out there have a recipe
(using Treacle) they highly recommend?  

Many thanks in advance!

tom


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:40:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Edward Seymour <eseymour at yahoo.com>
Subject: 1999 was a very good year

Greetings all, Happy New Year. 
     Now that the "Millennium Bug" has passed and most
of us (including the HBD server) have been unscathed
by it's presents, I wanted to update all on my 1999
brewing accomplishments.  First off I started brewing
after receiving a graduation gift from my wife (thanks
honey) in April.  After my second batch, I wanted to
try my hand on all grain brewing.
     My first all grain was brewed in my new dedicated
brewery in time for Fathers day.  After some
disappointments (back in HBD #3063) I have made some
nice beer according to everyone who has consumed it
(Thanks to the members of the HBD).  One of the things
that I discovered was that my manifold was sitting on
the bottom of the mash turn.  Actually it was designed
to sit on the bottom but after dumping the grain into
the compost heap and a thorough cleaning I lost the
elbow that made it sit on the bottom. I was starting a
new batch when I noticed that it was missing. By
raising it up 1 inch has increased my efficiency
dramatically. I have tried a 3 step decoction, a two
hour sparge, and a batch sparge with efficiencies in
the mid seventies using the same grain bill as HBD
3063.   
     Something that I have done over the holidays is
to add a web page for my brewery.  It shows how I
built my all grain brewery for about $125.00 USD.  It
might give someone an idea of how to build one of
their own. It can be found at:
www.geocities.com/eseymour/brewery.html
     Thank you everyone for all of your help in
getting a rookie into all grain. Santa left me a nice
REAL nice present under the tree, a super deluxe
MALTMILL with gears, adjustment knobs, and a clear
plastic window to see the grains get crushed.  Thanks
Jack for making such a terrific product. I know that
this is more machine than I'll ever need, but the
homebrew shop was selling MALTMILL's like hot cakes
for Christmas, and this was the last one they had. Now
off I am to buy my grain in bulk.

Regards,
Ed Seymour
Head Brewer, lonely bottle washer.
Hamden CT.
I don't know how far that is from Beer Mecca (Jeff
Renner's house).


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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 14:59:17 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  tannins

Kurt Goodwin writes about leaching tannins in response to something that
I wrote about tannins:

>I've tasted the runoff when it gets below 1.010 (down to 1.002 on one
>disasterous day, in fact), and I'd have to say that it DOES taste like
>weak tea - and NOT like a small amount of malt extract disolved in
>water.  The former has a certain not-great taste (astringency) that
>resembles leaving tea leaves in a cup too long and is noticably
>different than the weak sweetness the latter provides. 

I cant argue with what you perceive with your taste buds.
If you want to believe that you can taste leached tannins
in dilute wort, that is completely fine with me.  What I do
object to, however;  is people who claim that a perceived
taste is PROOF that tannins are leached from grain if you
let the lauter runoff drop below 1.010, AND more importantly,
that this has a negative impact on the final quality of home brew. 

My original post was in response to Mr. Alexander who
gave some decent scientific information concerning tannins in beer.
However, he prefaced his position by offering purely anecdotal
evidence that tannins are a problem when sparging with a low gravity 
runoff.  The evidence is based solely on his ability to detect what is 
perceived as tannins just by tasting the dilute runoff.  Because of this,
we end up with the impression that it is common knowledge that
anyone who is foolish enough to let his lauter run below 1.010 will leach
tannins and that thus ruin his beer.  Do you see the flaw in
this type of thinking?  

The problem is that dilute wort looks and tastes very much like watery
sweet tea, regardless of the tannin content, specific gravity, or pH.
This makes it difficult to make a rational judgment.  I am willing to 
wager a very large amount of leftover millennium barley wine that if I were to 
hand most home brewers a cup of warm dilute wort and made some
brief mumblings about tannins and tea, they would start to perceive
tannins also.  Even if I made the solution from dried malt extract.
It is only human nature.  Home brewers desperately want to believe that
they can taste flavor components at the part per billion level and various
faults in beer due to bogey men like tannins and HSA.  This gives them
a sense of control, a superiority over their fellow (common) homebrewers
who do not have the fine taste or skill to perceive such things.

I dont believe anecdotes unless the effect has been repeated
enough times to actually become common knowledge.  With regard
leaching tannins in low gravity runoff, I just dont think that this
has been the case (or even begins to qualify as a common occurrence).
Also dont forget that the supposed leaching of tannins actually having
an impact on the final quality of the beer is even more questionable than
whether the tannins leaching or not.

In lieu of an anecdote being repeated enough times to be beyond
a reasonable doubt, scientific information can be useful.  So, where is
all the scientific evidence that lautering below 1.010 leaches
tannins that have a negative impact on beer?

happy brew millennium,

Paul (I got your tanneriods right here) Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"



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Date: 03 Jan 2000 17:24:16 -0500
From: MIKE BRANAM <Branam.Mike at bei.bls.com>
Subject: Use of Irish Moss and Break Bite


     I have been using Irish Moss in the beers I have been brewing. I have 
     been given some break bright by a local Brew Master. The question is 
     do you guys who use Irish Moss or Break bright filter or siphon off 
     the wort before it goes in the carboy or let the Irish moss go into 
     the carboy.  The reason I ask is I have been transferring the whole 
     thing  Irish moss and all to the carboy. I have not found anything 
     that says one way or the other. It just says to add it to the boil 15 
     minutes before completion. I would like to filter the wort to remove 
     any hop particles but do not want to remove the Irish moss if it is 
     suppose to stay in the wort.


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:19:01 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re.:  Feelings on early racking

Brian asks about using a 'starter tank' or racking during the 8-24 hour
period after chilling and presumably pitching.

I do this for some lagers, especially if the recipe is very simple.  It
works OK, but I do notice a slightly slower start.  In principle the cold
break benefit can be traded against better oxygenation.  I just thrash my
(very cold) dilution water, so I'm sure I could do better.  I'm always
afraid of racking off yeast, particularly with lagers, so I try to catch it
exactly as lag phase turns to early krausen.

My reasoning is that once CO2 production starts, the sediment is going to
be stirred up anyway, so it's too late.  

So my contribution is "yes, it works, but be sure to aerate to saturation."
 I don't aerate at the 8-12 hour racking.  Does anyone know if that would
be a good or a bad idea?

Sean



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:42:08 EST
From: JDPils at aol.com
Subject: Laglander Dry Malt Extract & Yeast Starters

 Brain,

I had this experience too with Laglander extract and threw away my yeast 
starters.  (I had a couple carboys to rack, so I had other yeast available).  
When I asked the owner of a local brew shop a couple years ago, he told me 
not to use Laglander for starters because he had the same problems.  I have 
been usuing M&F since and never had the same issue again.

I hope this helps,

Jim


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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:10:14 -0800
From: Bob Wilcox <bobw at sirius.com>
Subject: Lack of Krausan

Brian

I think the lack of Krausen is due to the Laaglanders dry malt. It has
less fermentables then most other dry malts. I found out when I used it
for priming a batch. Never did carbonate right. I got Ray Daniels book
as a gift and just look it up.

Laaglanders 44.4% Fermentability
Munton spray dried 59.5% Fermentability

I think the Laaglanders is the problem.

Bob Wilcox
Long Barn & Alameda Ca
bobw at sirius.com



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:12:12 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Robin, telling it like it is 

I
>  Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
>  Subject: re gm

Hey Robin,

Relax man, have a homebrew. Pollution and starvation make us all angry. 
That's why we talk about homebrewing here, to forget the world's problems and 
have some fun (geeky fun, but fun none the less).

Alan Talman  




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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:25:53 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Dave Burley And His Cubby House Brewery

Sorry about the subject matter, I'm sure Dave won't mind. I do remember Dave
telling us that in his new home he had an enormous area in which to brew.
Well Dave, I have to tell you I now have the mother of all garages and it's
all mine in which to brew. Along with my trusty Norton and BMW motorcycles
(I mention this for the benefit of A.J.) we are indeed a happy team.

To borrow a line from George DePiro, for those of you new to the HBD, I was
once a frequent poster here. But unlike George, I never actually wrote a
technical post worth anything. Not only couldn't, but wouldn't! Simply
refused! This drove Steve Alexander to distraction as he planned futuristic
breweries. Did he ever finish Mark III?

In short, what happened to me was that we packed up shop and departed the
city for a little town called Burradoo. Even Doc Pivo hadn't heard of this
one, and there isn't much the good Doc hasn't heard of. What I hadn't quite
noticed was that my neat little brew house had been quietly stacking up with
more and more equipment until in the end I couldn't even, well dare I
mention it, swing a cat! Not even a kitten! Dave Humes, please no unpleasant
emails. Jill has just bought Phoebe a Burmese cat. I'll send photos to prove
it remains intact.

I didn't realise how compact things had become until I was blessed with all
this new found space. I'm going to double my production output to 50 litre
batches. I'm going to ask Steve Alexander for technical advise but as usual
never listen. And I'm going to give Pat Babcock grey and thinning hair with
posts he always has to read before letting in, or not letting in!
But don't worry Steve, I'm still not going to write any technical posts.

There will be Burradoo Bochs and Mudgee Muds a flowing. And this time Jeff
Renner's will reach him. Sorry about the last one Jeff.

So if I get a bit lost with some of the technical matters, chemistry
matters, or even Eric Fouch's absurd sense of the world (the poor bugger
thinks Michigan Lake is the ocean!) and even if as I suspect  better
chemists than me are not necessarily any better brewers, then I can console
myself with the fact that the beer just keeps coming out great and it's more
fun than ever to make.

Doc Pivo I know would give me ten out of ten for attitude though I haven't
yet perfected the use of a burnt out clothes dryer, but I'm working on it
Doc.

Cheers and a Happy New Century
Phil Yates






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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:11:45 -0500
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Beer Haiku! And a friend returns...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Since Spencer apparently doesn't want to share his "find" with the world, 
I'll do it for him. I think all beer reviews should be as thus! (The verses 
regarding Pete's Wicked and Sam Adams are particularly poignant, 
methinks...)

http://www.beerphiladelphia.com/haiku.htm

And a hearty "Welcome back, mate!" to Phil & Jill Yates! Hope the seas have 
settled, and the new country place helps heal the heartaches.

 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 19:33:03 -0800
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <ferment at flash.net>
Subject: reusing Co2 fire extinguishers

Kurt Goodwin writes about reusing Co2 fire extinguishers.
They are indead the same type of cylinders used for other Co2 purposes, such
as fountain and beer dispensing.  Your local shop that does hydro testing
should be able to fix you up with both testing and new valve.

While having it tested I would recomend having them inspect the interior.
It would be doubtful that you would have a problem from a fire extinguisher.
But, I am told that some cylinders need the interior cleaned (a type of sand
blasting) if rusted.  I know of one homebrewer who had a contamination
source from a cylinder he accidently got beer into which formed mold.

Don Van Valkenburg
Stein Fillers Brewing and Winemaking supply
www.steinfillers.com








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