HOMEBREW Digest #3346 Thu 08 June 2000

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  brewing software (J Daoust)
  database for brewing journals (ensmingr)
  re: mash temp. (J Daoust)
  Hot side aeration ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Yeast Starter ("Aaron Sepanski")
  lactic acid in mashes, it's up to you. ("Dr. Pivo")
  New York City Homebrewers Picnic (Phil Clarke)
  Jeff Renner's mild? (Bill.X.Wible)
  Hop n Gator ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Pride of Ringwood ("Dave Edwards")
  a doctor of /what?/ ("Alan Meeker")
  Mort O'Sullivan ("Stephen Alexander")
  more HSA ("Alan Meeker")
  CACA vs Genny clone (Paul Shick)
  Re: Lactic? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Beechwood Chip Usage at A-B (Jeff Renner)
  crystal unfermentables ("Alan Meeker")
  mash pH ("Alan Meeker")
  HSA challenge (Paul Shick)
  RE: Absolute Best Advice (Jonathan Peakall)
  more favorites (Aaron Perry)
  Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels ("NATHAN T Moore")
  Phos sources ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Saturated hard water ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Specific Gravity to Plato ("Aaron Sepanski")
  More confusion (AJ)
  Jeff's Question (AJ)
  genny cream ale and maris otter ("Czerpak, Pete")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:41:31 -0700 From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com> Subject: brewing software Dan, check out promash, it is a great homebrewing or commercial software program. You can download a demo for free. I think its www.promash.com Jerry D Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:17 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: database for brewing journals Greetings homebrewers, I am looking for a database of brewing journals to find full reference data (author, date, title, journal, volume, page numbers) of a number of brewing articles -- ideally, something analogous to MedLine for brewers. In particular, I'd like full citations (and abstracts, if possible) for the following articles: G. A. Howard et al., 1957, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 63, 237. L. R. Bishop et al., 1974, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 80, 68. S. Sakuma et al., 1991, Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists 49, 162. H. Voss and A. Piendl, 1976, Brewers Digest, 51, 55. F. R. Sharpe and I. H. L. Ormrod, 1991, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 97, 3 M.L. Viriot et al., 1980, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 86, 21. Searching on Google, Yahoo, Alta Vista, etc. has not been successful. Can anyone help? TIA. Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY just call me email: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:44:54 -0700 From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com> Subject: re: mash temp. Jeff calton asked; If it is generally agreed that mashing and sparging in the same bucket to reduce hot side aeration will improve ones beer, is this perceived benefit worth what seems to me to be a tradeoff of trying to hit ones mash temperature by adding hot or cold water to the mash tun? If I switch to a combination mash/lauter tune made from a Rubbermaid cooler how easy is it to hit and maintain a target mash temp without being able to simply apply heat to the bottom of the container? The easy answer, go to a herms or rims type system, and you can make maintaining your temp as easy as setting a dial. I use a rubbermaid with a herms, and have had great success. Good luck, Jerry Daoust Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:58:58 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Hot side aeration Before I made any bets, I'd try it myself. There is a famous article published about three and a half years ago if I am correct by a prof. from the Siebel Institute. He performed a similar experiment. His was slightly more involved. He measured oxygen pick-up throughout the process. From grain to glass, he found hot side aeration to have a profoundly smaller impact than expected. There were small differences in oxidative products, granted. Most important, the net effect was almost an imperceptible flavor change. The take home message he gave was that brewers should be much more concerned about oxidation further down the process, post fermentation. This will produce staling off-flavor and decrease shelf life invariably. This was surprising to me at first, but then I learned of a Brewery in England that deliberately aerates hot wort. I do not want to say with brewery, because I am not 100% sure off hand, but it is a famous maker. They run a percolator during the boil, the result being a beer that is aerated continuously throughout the boil all the way through knock out. I am friends with a master beer judge who frequents England. I asked regarding oxidative off flavors, and he assured me that there were none at threshold. My guess would be a little more conservative. It would seem reasonable to me to try and prevent it, but not to kill yourself in worry about all air, look at RIMS. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 0:34:49 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Yeast Starter Yeast Starter will replicate throughout. Yeast will bud all the way through fermentation. Often times people equate aeration with division. This isn't entirely wrong. Aeration in a wort drives lipid synthesis, which is necessary for cell membrane materials. Even a non aerated wort with reproduce, but the yeast is extremely stressed. So a starter with give growing yeast two aerations and get your cell count up. You will always get about ten divisions or doublings. I have seen this many times in the lab. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:51:21 +0200 From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se> Subject: lactic acid in mashes, it's up to you. Phil and Jill Yates wonders why I lump lactic acid usage in mashing together with other modern methods of producing less tasty products.... actually I'm wondering just how curious Jill is about all that.(?) There is a long and short answer to that. Using lactic acid to lower mash pH sacrifices "dextrins" for "alcohol". I lie quite a bit when I talk about stuff, in order to keep it simple. I like to call the stuff you get out of the malt when mashing "maltose" (fermentable) and "dextrins" (non fermentable). There's actually a bunch of other crud* (*technical term for "belonging to the category of both fermentable/non-fermentable) within both of those categories, but it's as good enough place as any to start. so let's pretend it's that simple. As I'm sure you remember from Brewing 1A and Thursday evenings at Regan's, at about pH 5.2 you will get maximal ammount of maltose, which will become alcohol. Let the pH drift up and you will get more dextrins and less alcohol. What difference will this make in the long run? I'm not even going to go into the vicinity of talking about whether dextrins cause "mouth feel" or "body".....that one's been fairly thoroughly thrashed. Let's just say they do cause SOMETHING taste-wise. Dextrins have a flavour that I would describe as "either enhancing malty flavours, or themselves being perceived as "malty"", and "either enhancing sweet flavours, or themselves being percieved as sweet". Pretty diffuse, huh? Alcohol has flavour too. Some describe it as belonging in the "sweet" range, but I'll leave that. What I do find is that alcohol enhances feusal flavours (which may just be a hand in hand production thing and crossing a threshold, since feusals ARE alcohol, with longer tails than our favourite), enhances aldehyde flavours (they're on the same metabolic train track and the same explanation could apply), and what I can't figure, but seems to apply, is they seem to mask estery flavours. Now let's leave my incredibly subjective taste evaluations, and observations from pumping my "Maltose/Dextrin ratio" up and down, and get to something I know about, and that get's us back to Czech breweries (What else?) If we float back a couple of decades, the standard Czech mash was sitting at about 5.5-5.6. That was a lovely "maltose/dextrin" ratio to may tastes. In the 90's there has been some changes made, and I was shocked to sit at one of my favourite pubs a few years back, and be able to taste a new "Thin emptiness" in the middle ground of a beer I knew quite well, and to feel the slight tang of lactic acid, where other flavours should have been..... Yep, my beloved Czecho has gone over to the lactic acid trick, gaining maximum ammount of alcohol, per invested grain. Now EVERY brewery I know that has converted to lactic acid additions, has subsequently had to reduce their hopping rates. With less dextrins to support the malt and sweet tones, the hopping becomes out of balance, and must be reduced to match the less complex flavour in the bass. Esters have inexplicably followed the same path, and you will no longer have a Staropramen "flirt with your tongue with a taste of wild strawberry, as it floats from the malty/butterscotch bass, to the florality of the Saaz", or a Holesovice "presenting a distinct tone of honey-dew melon layed on top of the thickness of body that spreads all the way to the sides of the tongue".....(I only write that nonsense when I'm well and truly tanked... just ask Richard Pass... I believe I was at his dinner table when I belched out "The true colour of a stout is one which you can watch a solar eclipse through... and miss it.") So how much maltose and how much dextrin do you want? Well the choice is yours. I don't mind 67/33. A commercial brewery would like 80/20. In other words if I brew a "full bodied beer" (remembering the other "crud", one does have to get to a certain OG for a chunky flavour) let's say I pull it out at 1048. I don't mind if it finishes at 1016. I'll tolerate it if it finishes at 1012. If it finishes at 1008, I've got one of those things that I'm sitting on my backside with a silly grin on my face, before I've sated enough taste buds to find out what I really think. You touched on the Gypsum thing, and maybe I have just grown to accept that flavour in English Ales (best example I've recently tasted is "Green King IPA" where the ENTIRE ground between the subtle caramel flavour and the thin hop bitteress is covered by the clean dry taste of gypsum)... On the other hand, while I truly do enjoy the taste of Sauer kraut and other lactic fermented vegatables; yoghourt, kefir, and other lactic fermented milk products, I don't like that flavour at all in beers. I believe you said you had a mash pH of 5.6? If I could get that with my favourite grain combination (now this is where Jill should stop reading) I'd carress myself in all manner of expression of joy. My favo comes in at pre-zactly 5.2, which means I have to play all manner of tricks to squeeze up the dextrin content so it doesn't become a "head spinner"... If I just wanted the buzz, I could shoot some Foster's or go searching your paddock for some "goldies"..... in fact I am quite beginning to suspect that the bottle of skunk oil is simply a way of diverting folks from your favourite harvesting area. 'natch the choice is yours, in how you want to make your "best beer", but lactic balancing the pH will "thin" the flavour. Dr. Pivo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:46:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Clarke <dogglebe at yahoo.com> Subject: New York City Homebrewers Picnic Just a reminder that the NYCHG's picnic is this Sunday at Croton Point Park from noon to five o'clock. Those wishing to attend. but haven't notified me, please do so by Friday. Hope to see you there. Phil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:11:32 -0400 From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Jeff Renner's mild? >"Patrick Michael Flahie" <flahiepa at pilot.msu.edu> wrote: >It's still in my queue of things to brew -- along with Jeff Renner's mild >recipe posted in May. I knew there was something I liked about that Jeff Renner guy. Pre-prohibition lager, now mild ale. Jeff, any chance for a repost of that mild recipe? (Or send it to my email?) Mild is one my favorite styles to brew. I'm always looking for new mild recipes. Thanks. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:19:11 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Hop n Gator Just remember--you asked for it! How They Did It: I recently had lunch with a former brewer from Pittsburg Brewing Co. He remembers it well--with a huge grimace on his face. They contracted with the inventor of Gatorade for the syrups. It was like $50 a gallon in 1970's dollars. They bought it by the 55-gallon drum... When ever they made it, it stunk up the whole neighborhood. Apparently it had a wider area of olafactory distribution than brewing beer did. So how did they do it? 6-Row malt and brewers grits (60/40%) as the base to about 1.056. Fermented down to 1.012. It was then filtered and the gatorade was added in-line along with CO2 at that point. This sweetend it up to about 1.048!!! Hops? There were no hops in this beer at all. There were 2 or 3 IBUs to the beer but that came from the yeast. The beer was then put in the filling tank where they had to keep bubbling CO2 up from the bottom to keep the Gatorade/sugar in solution. This meant they had to vent excess CO2 out the top, thus creating a huge stench. It was bottled, canned or kegged then pasturized the same day. How We Could Do It: Hop and Gator Recipe??? Batch size: 5.0 Brewer: Not Me Style: Experimental Date Gravity Plato Brewing: 05/24/78 1.056 13.8 Racking: 1.012 3.0 Bottling: 1.048 12 ????? Alcohol: 4.0% (w/w) Alcohol: 5.0% (v/v) Ingredients: Cereal Mash-- 6 Row 1.25 pounds 1.006 S.G. 0.3 SRM 60 min mash Corn grits 3.6 pounds 1.019 S.G. 0.7 SRM 60 min mash Main Mash-- 6 Row 4.2 pounds 1.024 S.G. 0.9 SRM 60 min mash Gatorade Mix-- Corn Sugar 3.3 lbs 1.030 S.G. 0.1 SRM Citric Acid 1.7 ounce (lq) Grapefruit Extract 4.1 ounce (lq) Lemon Extract 0.4 ounce (lq) 4.16 oz of Kelcolaid (A foam aid) in 4oz water Cereal Mashing comments Cereal Mash: If you are prone to adding Gypsum to water, please do so at your regular amounts. PBC tried to hit 60 ppm Ca. Split the gypsum addition between cereal and main mashes. Dough-in at 120F raise to 158F in 15 min and rest 15 min. Raise to boiling in 20 min. (Meanwhile dough in main mash) Boil cereal mash 20 min and add to previously started Main Mash. Mash water amount: 7.0 qts Strike temperature: 120 ?Fahrenheit Cereal Mashing schedule minutes ?Fahrenheit 1 120 15 158 30 158 50 212 70 212 40 113 70 113 75 155 90 155 112 157 117 157 Main Mashing comments Main Mash Dough in with 112F water 30 min before adding cereal mash to hit 112F. Add Cereal Mash and fire to hit155.5F for 15 min. Mashoff to 167F 5 min. Boil 1 hr whirlpool 1/2 hour Mashing schedule minutes ?Fahrenheit 0 112 30 112 55 155 70 155 87 167 93 167 Hop Schedule: None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I repeat there are No Hops in Hop and Gator Wyeast #2035 American Lager 2.0 liter starter or larger!!! This yeast or Ayinger which is my favorite. Who knows what yeast they are using now... If you can get it, use their yeast. This might be the only time you can use any kind of yeast you want. Well, don't use a belgian yeast, but anything remotely close to neutral will do just fine. Fermentation Ferment no higher than 69F 7-10 days , lager at 53.5F 7 days, Filter? rest 3 days (This is what PBC did, doesn't mean you have to. Do what is best for your yeast selection.) Kelcolaid is a foaming agent. Beer still has to have a head on it, ya know!! At end of Lagering add 1.25 tsp potassium sorbate to beer. Beer must be forced carbonated after the addition of the Gator Juice. Gator Juice Recipe Ingredients: Citric Acid 1.7 liquid ounces Isomerase (Corn Syrup) 3.3 lbs (if you believe the numbers) Grapefruit Extract 4.1 ounce Lemon Extract 0.4 ounce 4.16 oz of Kelcolaid in 1 quart water Mix water amount: 0.5 gal Mixing Comments: 1 add acid to 0.6 qts h20 2 add isomerase (corn Syrup) 3 add grapefruit 4 add lemon 5 add kelcolaid (Foam producer) 6 add to 4.5 gallons of beer 7 pasturize or add 1.25 tsp potassium sorbate 8 carbonate 9 drink or water the flowerbed--whichever seems more appropriate at the time...Phil Alternative Method: Use the Dry Gatorade mix that sweetens with Nutrasweet. Mix it in to taste, I have no idea on amounts. This would still let you bottle condition with corn sugar priming. If it got sweet enough with just the gatorade, which I dont think it would, you would still need to add corn sugar (Karo syrup) to it to get to the original sweetness. 1.048 FINAL GRAVITY!!! That is rediculously high!!!!! But that is what the numbers come out too! People used to take this stuff and add a shot of whisky to it to make a mixed drink! For a short while it out sold Iron City Lager!!! Big hair and disco must have made us really stupid!!! Phil Wilcox Poison Frog Home Brewer Warden-Prison City Brewers In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium... If you come to the AHA Conference, I promise I won't bring any with me! ;<) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:13:44 +0930 From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au> Subject: Pride of Ringwood G'day, Bill Wible wrote this about his hop additions for a Fosters clone: | .5 oz Pride of Ringwood 6.8% 60 min | .5 oz Pride of RIngwood 6.8% 30 min My question is where the hell does he buy his hops? You don't get PoR here in SA at less than 9% AAU, and most are about 10 or 11 %. Maybe it's just something to do with the way that most of the hops in Oz and NZ have much higher acid than their northern relatives. Also Aussie Rules, apart from being a truly AUSTALIAN game, is the REAL MANS game. For a start Aussie rules lads DO NOT wear padding, and still belt the crap out of each other, But it's more than that, it involves brains, skill, finness and levels of fitness that Rugby players can only dream about. All that they do is put PADDING ON , and stand in a line and try to hit each other so as to stop the opposition from running into their territory. Just having a lend of you blokes anyhow, all three codes are pretty good, after all I have to admit, I stayed up into the wee hours of the morning watching the mighty wallabies anihilate anything in their path. Cheers, Dave. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:25:14 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: a doctor of /what?/ Steve wrote to doc Pivo: " I have noticed that in your field physicians are not required to personally contract every disease they treat," Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc?? Shudder. -Alan Meeker Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:40:38 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Mort O'Sullivan Jeff Renner's post reminded me ... >From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com> >Subject: RE: crystal malt: call for discussion Does anyone know how to get in touch with Mort ? Last I heard he was in N.Y. somewhere. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:43 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: more HSA While the HSA thread continues to unravel here I thought I'd bring up something I haven't seen mentioned yet, namely the increased rate of reaction between atmospheric oxygen and wort as the temperature increases. Several people have pointed out (correctly) that during the boil the solubility of oxygen is, for all practical purposes, zero. This fact has been used by some in support of the idea that there is therefore no potential for HSA to occur /during/ the boil since there will be no dissolved oxygen present in solution. What I wonder is whether or not HSA might still be possible at the liquid/gas interface. The old rule of thumb that chemical reaction rates roughly double for every 10 degC increase in temperature imply that oxidation rates could increase about 100-fold or more at boiling temps compared to room temp. During the boil the only place the wort has the potential to be exposed to gaseous oxygen is at the surface. Could this be a problem? I don't know but since I have taken to conducting open boils outside I have wondered about this. There is certainly plenty of opportunity for lots of wort surface area exposure to air with a 60-90 minute roiling boil in windy conditions. Any thoughts from the hard-core chemistry crew out there? -Alan Meeker Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:56:26 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu> Subject: CACA vs Genny clone Hello all, A quick follow up to Patrick Flahie's comments about using a Classic American Cream Ale (CACA) recipe as a starting point toward a Genny Cream Ale clone: Genny is far from "classic" in that it's much lower in bitterness and somewhat lower in gravity than a CACA (or at least my version of one. Others might prefer a lighter version.) Genny seems to be the model for a modern cream ale, coming in at about 20 IBU and 1.046 or so OG. Scott Abene has posted a number of attempts at a Genny-like cream ale on his www.brewrats.org site. He's apparently quite happy with the latest version, posted about a year ago. Paul Shick Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:10:30 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Lactic? Thanks to AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> for a good, clear summary of the reaction which occurs: >when hard, alkaline water is >boiled and in particular when it's been supplemented with CaCl2 (which >he does) during or after the boiling process. However, his misgivings: >At the risk of answering the wrong question were appropriate. I didn't make my question clear enough. I would like to know the reaction which occurs and what (if anything) happens to the Ca++ when lactic acid is added to the same water to lower its pH, as an alternative to boiling and decanting it prior to using it for mashing and sparging. Is this a good alternative to boiling and decanting of liming? >Jeff mentions that he doesn't like adding a calcium salt because the >desired extra calcium comes paired with an undesired anion. Use lime! This is what the Ann Arbor water treatment plant does, and why the micro that gave us the lactic acid discovered it didn't need it. Of course, the water treatment plant doesn't do this for the convenience of brewers, but rather to soften the water. It leaves enough Ca++ for brewing, 37 ppm, but just barely. Jeffe -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:40:57 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Beechwood Chip Usage at A-B Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> asks > >Wait a minute. Are you saying that if they didn't use the chips, the >yeast would settle EVEN FASTER, and there would be EVEN MORE >acetaldehyde?!?! No, the chips make the beer clear more quickly, because each yeast cell (or flocculated clump) has far less distance to fall before settling on a surface than it would if it had to settle all the way to the bottom. There may also be some actual attraction of the yeast to the chips. >Wow. All this time I've been blaming the beechwood for helping the >yeast to floc faster, and thus contributing to the acetaldehyde. If >you're right (and I have no reason to doubt Michalak's statement), >then I've had it exactly backwards. There's lots more surface area of yeast exposed to metabolize the acetaldehyde than if it all settled to the bottom. However, I don't remember Steve mentioning this and I'm not sure if the acetaldehyde is reduced by contact with the yeast or not. They were very circumspect about acetaldehyde, maybe even sensitive to the subject. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:13:57 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: crystal unfermentables Charley wrote asking about the flavorings in crystal malts.. >Seems that the non-fermentable sugars then are complex molecules of long >length, similar to the dextrins we've known about for some time. But dextrin >has no flavor (read that somewhere and tasted some "dextrin powder" one >time). Yet carmelized sugurs in Crystal malt has a lot of flavor. Wonderful >flavors in fact. And I've always wondered how they get through to the final >product if they ARE fermentable. Seems like fermentation would significantly >alter or eliminate those flavors. For the malt sugars, there are two broad types of chemical reactions (both of which are complex) occuring to produce those wonderful flavors we get in crystal malts. First there is carmelization, which occurs when sugars are heated producing a complex mixture of products ranging from low MW to larger polymers. Second there are the Maillard reactions in which ammonium ions or amine groups (e.g. - from amino acids) add to sugar carbonyls forming "Amadori products" which then undergo a complex and poorly characterized series of reactions leading again to yet another complex mixture of products. The modifications that take place result in many compounds that aren't utilizable by the yeasts. In both cases the result is darkening of color and a spectrum of aromas and tastes. Both of these reactions are taking place during the production of crystal malts and in decoctions and the kettle boil as well. >The point here is what? I think I created the crystal malt flavor and color >without the crystal malt. I was trying to replicate the Traquir recipe and >process from the reading I had done in several publications (Michael >Jackson's book was one of them). >Is this creating the same flavor compounds as kilning the stewed malt to make >crystal? Yes, you are creating some of the same compounds but probably not the same exact spectrum and proportions of them. There are MANY variables involved which will impact the resultant character of a given sample of crystal malt, which is of course why they taste different from one another when you sample them. >Is it possible to create our own "crystal malt extract" by this process? >Could it be stored and used in future brews? Would it cost more than its >worth? An interesting idea, give it a try! -Alan Meeker Lazy Eight Brewery - "Where the possibilities are infinite." Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:17:53 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: mash pH Nathan: >Isn't a pH meter just measuring the conductivity of >the solution? I've suspected the water source myself for a couple of years. >I've tried difference sources and always come out with about the same >pH on what is sold as distilled water. I came across on source selling >"distilled water" that says "prepared by ozonation." I didn't bother Not exactly, the pH electrode must selectively measure only protons (or hydronium ions if you prefer). The water's conductivity will depend on all the ionic species present. What AJ is getting at is whether or not there are sufficient concentrations of contaminating ions in the water to explain the anomalous pH reading. Such contaminants could come from improper purification or handling, or from the storage containers. Depending on the system being used this problem isn't unherard of unfortunately. > .....point of >the experiment...{will 150 ppm Ca++ adjust a pale malt mash to normal pH}. >It was really a silly experiment since so many sources say Ca ++ at 50 to >150ppm >will bring about an properly adjusted mash pH. (unless the water is highly >carbonate) I don't think it's that silly. In fact, one of the things that caught my eye when I read Fix's new book were statements to the effect that standard mashes using pale malt might not come to optimum pH without further adjustments. This deserves looking into further... -Alan Meeker Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:22:57 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu> Subject: HSA challenge Hello all, Steve Alexander posts a very detailed challenge concerning an experiment to determine whether or not the HSA boogyman can be detected. I think Steve's procedure outline is a great starting point for such a trial. Further, I really like his suggestion of using a Bock or a Marzen (although I might prefer a Vienna, myself.) Both styles have enough (somewhat) dark malts to be susceptible to HSA (if it exists,) but shouldn't overpower tasters with tons of esters or bitterness. I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned, in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects. I would even be willing to perform the experiment myself, on the condition that we agree in advance to eliminate the betting aspect that Steve and Dr. Pivo have injected into the discussion. My feeling is that we're all on the same side here: we all want to know what's important in making good beer and what factors can be ignored. Of course we'll have disagreements and arguments about various aspects of the craft, but I hope that we can keep these from turning into personal attacks. So, in short, I'm volunteering to be the "competent lager brewer" Steve asks for (I can trot out my modest credentials if needed,) _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both personal and monetary. If nothing else, this might give me a nice excuse to brew 20 gallons of a nice lager to share with others -- always a fun thing. Paul Shick Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 07:42:02 -0700 From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org> Subject: RE: Absolute Best Advice In mild response to Patrick. I think you misunderstood my point to the good Doctor. I was saying that just because someone hasn't tried something personally doesn't mean you should dismiss their ideas. The roto till thing was Doc's simile. I was commenting on investigating even an idiot's advice if it sounds like it could be true. And because I like to encourage the Doc and Phil to post, as it adds a little flavor to my morning HBD. It really wasn't meant as a "roto till is horrible and you should never ever use one" post. That said, while I won't say (and never did) there is no soil type or area one shouldn't till annually, I will say there are probably few. I personally have gardened in very clay soil, and after two years never needed to till. I currently garden in what is known of as "pygmy soil", a very unusual clay and acid soil that is so crappy that a pine tree 15 feet tall can be over 100 years old. I doubt there is any soil nastier. The fact that Ag folks and "Master Gardeners" in your area don't agree doesn't faze me a bit. Old methods can die hard. No offense, but I bet you haven't tried a non till program, whereas I have both tilled and non tilled. You say you doubt I have gardened any where but my neck of the woods because my methods aren't the ones you use. Not so, Patrick. There are only two subjects on earth I feel qualified to have an opinion about, sailing and gardening, and that's because I've done both my whole life, and done both for a living at various times. Anyway Patrick, have fun gardening your way. The focus of my original post really wasn't roto tilling! I wasn't trying to crow my "Gardening Expertise"! It had nothing to do with "The Absolute Best Advice"! I bet your garden does great, and I wish you a good season. And if you would ever like to stop tilling (just too much work, as well as unnecessary and not good for your soil) drop me a line and I'll tell ya the lazy man way. >>In mild response to Johnathon Peakall and his Gardening Expertise. >>It is obvious that you have not gardened in my neck of the woods, or maybe even in any but your own. To risk another 'blanket' or even assenine 'absolute' statement. All the gardeners around here must rototill or make bricks. Master gardeners, Ag. extension advisors, and the like all rototill. Reportedly, and in my experience, the earthworms survive and the mulches (yes we 'do' organic) get down into our clay and caliche soil all the way into the root zone. One of the few things I still say with absolute authority and unchallenged certainty at this stage of my life is "Never say never and hardly ever say always". We can't all be right about every thing all the time. Have a great day, loosen your bowtie, and 'Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew." Patrick be kickin' back now.<< Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:57:14 -0400 From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> Subject: more favorites I was interested in the strong response to the Foster's recipe. I can't help but want to stir up such a response here in the U.S. I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of beer. I thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any insight? Brewery specifics? TIA A.P. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:24:59 -0600 From: "NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US> Subject: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels There is a legend that somewhere out there exists coopers that take used wine barrels staves, shave them down, and make smaller barrels (10 gallons and less) out of them. At a few locations on the web I have seen reference to a company called Micro Barrels in California, but I cant seem to get an answer when I try to call them (I have been trying for several weeks now). Does anyone know about this company and if they are still doing business (and if they are, how to contact them)? Or, does anyone know of any other coopers doing this? There is a 2.5 gallon oak keg that is claimed to be mad from reconditioned french oak barrels on e-bay (search for "french oak barrel". I contacted the seller and they have 100 or so of these that they purchased and it sounds like there will be several going up for auction, however, the quality of these is questionable, they said the staves have not been shaved (meaning you will have an affect from whatever was in there before, if they actually know what they are talking about) and they would not reply to my question about toasting, they just told me to buy one and find out. If anyone buy one, please let me know what you get. Thanks for any help Nate Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:45:46 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Phos sources If you are looking for Phosphoric acid sources, contact your local chemical companies. In the Milwaukee are there are two major chemical companies, Ace, and Hydrite. I'm certain since these companies aren't national that other exist. You may get some questions asking what you are using it for, but if you explain your use they should sell it to you. I even use it (among other things) to sanitize counter tops at home. It is very safe with responsible handling and non-toxic. We use it at work to acid wash our yeast. It is an ingredient in just about every major soda, to provide tartness. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:53:30 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Saturated hard water I stand corrected. I inappropriately used to term saturation. What I meant to imply was that in a solution high in calcium, adding more will not be beneficial. Dave was exactly right. I'm sorry if I made anyone confused. Some times I write these things in a hurry. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:9:52 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Specific Gravity to Plato When converting SG to Plato, divide by four, essentially. Really, subtract 1.000, then divide by four, then multiply by one thousand. Like this... 1.048 SG, in Plato equals... 1.048-1.000=.048 .048/4=.012 .012*1000= 12 12 degrees Plato. So when a Pilsner say it is 12 Plato, it means the starting gravity was 1.048, which is a Pilsner that is right on for the OG. If it ferments down to 1.012, then it is called a perfect Pilsner. If anyone is interested in a table concerning these measurements which will make eliminate the math necessary for conversion, check out "The Brewmasters' Bible." It's on page 354. It is really for the home Brewmasters, which makes it a good source. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:10:20 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: More confusion Two people wrote to me privately about a goof in the post on the Plato scale. I misread the ASBC tables in coming up with the example numbers, realized that I'd done it but only corrected in one place instead of the three. Thus 12P corresponds to 1.048 specific gravity (and this is the ratio of the weight of wort at 20C to the weight of an equal volume of water at 20C). For the second time in as many days I apologize for any conusion caused. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:32:20 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Jeff's Question Now that I know what Jeff's question really is I can take another whack at it. In yesterday's answer to the wrong question we looked at how water pH is reduced through a mechanism which involves the precipitation of calcium carbonate. Where mash pH is lowered through the agency of direct acid addition there is no conversion of bicarbonate to carbonate and, thus, no coalescing of carbonate and Ca++ to fall out of solution. Quite the other way, in fact, bicarbonate is converted to carbonic. If any chalk precipitate had begun to form, it would redissolve. Thus rather than a reduction in calcium ion concentration there is no change or a slight increase. Whether this is a better way to compensate for high bicarbonate is arguable. With acid the alkalinity is simply neutralized which means that much of it is converted to carbonic. This carbonic will be driven off in the kettle eventually but if the original bicarbonate level were very high there would be some residual even after adjustmemt of mash pH to a comfortable value. Some authors (DeClerk, in particular) find bicarbonatae treated in this way to be objectioanble in taste. Boiling or lime treatement actually remove much of the bicarbonate so that at mash pH very little remains. When acid is used, there is an anion to consider (lactic in this case). These ions nearly always have a flavor impact so unless the job can be done with very small quantities this is sometimes a concern. Sometimes it works for you. If you would like to sharpen the hops presence in an ale and at the same time round the fullness, alkalinity reduction can be done very nicely with hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. Tart beers, such as wits, Weisse's and even Weizen's benefit from a twinge of lactic in them. In other situations the presence of the anion may be inappropriate. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:01:38 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: genny cream ale and maris otter Somebody recently asked for Genny Cream ale recipes. Even growing up in NY I had never tasted one until about 2 years ago. Thus began a Xmas tradition that amounted to having one Genny Cream ale annually during a work lunch hour with a friend who professes having grown up on it. Too bad the local neighborhood bar that we went to just closed a few months ago. have to find a close by place for next years outting. Anyways, if you search the digest on the may 11, 2000 issue you will find a recipe for Genny Cream Ale. Not mine, but FYI. Its a 15 gallon batch, Wyeast 2035 yeast, Liberty hops, and mostly lager malt, maize, and munich/vienna for body. Good luck!! Thanks for all the maris Otter info a few weeks ago. I did infact purchase a sack of Muntons marris Otter. I contacted muntons in the UK and they reply that their MO is not floor malted due to cost issues. I also recently got some Hugh baird (also not floor malted) and intend to test the two for discernable differences. No triangle testing though ;) i also plan to get some Beestons to try out since many have replied that it is their favorite and fairly available as floor malted. thanks for the great resource, Pete czerpak albany, NY Return to table of contents
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