---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Crash of HBD system ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  Green Bottles & light ("Warren White")
  Transporting Beers, again. (Rod Prather)
  Elsassa Hops info. request ("Grant Stott")
  Glycol chillers (The Freemans)
  Aussie Malts ("john.lovett")
  Don't blame Bean Counters ("Donald D. Lake")
  Re: Mail Order Supplies (Joel Plutchak)
  chloramine (again) ("Russ&Nancy Tjepkema")
  Chilling, Dry Corriandering ("AYOTTE, ROGER C")
  Hacker-Pschorr Oktoberfest ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  HP Jornada Beer Software Wanted ("Schneider, Brett")
  censorship?! (Eli Daniel)
  CORIANDER -DRY HOPPING? ("Hill, Steve")
  Need Advice on York, PA Brewpubs ("Steve Schultz")
  dry-coriandering (John Penn)
  Suggestions? ("John Watts")
  Mailorder, Dry Spicing ("Grant Knechtel")
  Summertime Counterflow Chillers (Stephen Johnson)
  vienna malt vs. pale ale (Randy Ricchi)
  adelscott (djazzie)
  dry-coriandering (Brian Myers)


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:09:55 -0500 
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: Crash of HBD system

Well, we crashed again. This time it was due to automated mailers
having their own conversation between each other. From the time the
mail storm began until we broke the loop, over 19,000 messages were
exchanged between the two systems. Fortunately, it was an easy task
for us to delete and fix at our end (I have no idea about the
other persons end). We have corrected our automation to prevent 
similar activity in the future. We apologize for the amount of HBD 
and beer discussion withdrawl this may have caused anyone.

We now return you to your regular "fix".

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E-Mail: kfl at umr.edu              | 114 Computer Science Bldg. 
Fax: (573) 341-4216              | 1870 Miner Circle 
Voice: (573) 341-4841            | Rolla, MO 65409-0360
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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:36:43 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Green Bottles & light

A little lightbulb just went off in my head!
Call me Wylie Coyote.

Actually this is leading to a question...

I generally put my just-filled bottles in a wooden cabinet for about a week 
to carbonate, in this cabinet I usually have a 40 to 100 watt pearl 
lightbulb as a heat-source.

My problem being is that half of my batch have been bottled in green 
bottles, (it's a Tripel). I know that direct sunlight and even fluroescent 
lights can render beers light-struck and useless in a very short period of 
time.

What about normal light bulbs? I'm presuming that they do not give off UV 
rays, which supposedly do all the damage (just guessing here).

So could someone shed a little light on this for me, (ha! ha! real funny 
Warren).

Not worrying mind you, just a little curious/concerned.

Cheers! Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia

P.S. A Question:
Did you hear they have 2 new uses for sheep in New Zealand?

Answer:
Meat & Wool?

Yoicks! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)


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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:00:56 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Transporting Beers, again.

I want to offer one more data point to the concept that some beers are damaged 
by travel.  My data point is subjective so please forgive me for my lack of 
scientific method here.  

Anchor Steam Beer.  I love it.  I have had it on the west coast 
many times.  The beer is unique in flavor and character.  I live in the
midwest.  
I have had the beer on many occasions here and have yet to find one that 
retains the character of the beer sold on the west coast.  As a matter of fact, 
these transported products are quite non descript.  They seem to resemble a 
pale ale with hardly a hint of the flavors that I find so interesting.

Recently, in a local Micro Brew festival, I had the chance to taste Anchor 
Steam almost side by side with a very good homebrew clone.   The Anchor Steam 
was brought in by the distributor and should have been fresh.  Once again, 
the Anchor was non-descript but the home brew had all the flavors of Steam and 
was a very close reproduction.

Now either they are shipping a different beer east of the Rockies, which I
doubt,
or this beer doesn't travel well.   I know beer is damaged by light and heat 
but I have often wondered if vibration and shaking for long periods of time 
may be a factor in the degradation of certain more fragile beers.   

Any support for such a supposition.
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 05:12:32 +1000
From: "Grant Stott" <gstott at primus.com.au>
Subject: Elsassa Hops info. request

G'day all,
The Corio Bay Brewers have been sent some Esassa hops, grown in Tasmania. A
web search has produced only one hit suggesting that Elsassa are a low
yielding old French variety.
If anyone can provide additional info it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Grant Stott
Geelong Vic. Australia



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:23:27 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Glycol chillers

Mike,

I have answered Steven's survey as well.  I also feel he will have a
hard time coming up with reasonable replacements for the Maxi or
Chillzilla.  These are basically variations on commercial water recovery
systems on boilers.

I have been working on an idea which may have merit for both you as well
as myself as we try to brew here in the hot summer South.  It simply
consists of putting a glycol tank (probably 10 gallons as I have a 10
gallon cornie I can delegate to that task.) in my chest freezer and
applying the near 0 degree glycol to one side of a MaxiChiller via a
small pump.  I plan on using propylene glycol rather than ethylene
glycol as it is less detrimental to me and any of the local pets who
might come in contact with the inevitable small spills..  This would be
a case where an output thermometer would be needed on the counterflow
chiller to help regulate the flow of coolant rather than the flow of hot
wort.

By the same token an immersion chiller in my conical could be adapted to
regulate fermenting temps with the use of a temp control and a
thermocouple.  The natural convection present in fermenting wort would
help to spread the coolness around.

When it is up and running, I'll let you know.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:15:33 +1100
From: "john.lovett" <johnl at omni.net.au>
Subject: Aussie Malts

Some help from all you aussie brewers out there..
I've read conflicting reports about the degree of modification of Australian
malts commonly available to the homebrew market. On one hand, i'm told they
are fully modified and don't need a protein rest, on the other, i'm told
that they are mostly malted for the export market to asia and are
undermodified. I'm mainly talking two row Franklin here. Terry Foster "Pale
Ale, second ed.", believes a protein rest for well modified malts is
detrimental, causing leaching of tannins; Can anyone tell me what is the
best step mash regime for a Franklin malt?



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 08:24:41 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Don't blame Bean Counters

This so-called censorship issue is being blamed on corporate "bean
counters".  Nothing could be further from the truth.  In corporate
jargon, "bean counters" are the financial, accounting, CPA types who are
stereotyped as too busy counting the beans instead of making them.

The bean counters could care less about the bad language that Jim Liddel
spews in the the emails you receive.  They would be offended, however,
over the extraordinary amount of company time you waste reading your HBD
mail.

It's the HR(human resources)people who are the ones that are offended by
the language and force companies to create policies to avoid possibly
offending anyone.  Let's place the blame where it lies.  There is plenty
of other stuff to blame on the bean counters.

Don Lake




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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:20:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail Order Supplies

In HBD #3444, Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard asks:
>Does anybody know of stores that do mail order supplies for home brewing?
>I knew of a store called the Gourmet Brewer run by a guy named Dave
>Bartz.  Any ideas if they are still in business? Any other stores? TIA

   The Gourmet Brewer seems to have disappeared around a year
ago.
   I don't do a huge volume of online homebrew purchases, but like
and use the following based on distance, speed, knowledge of staff,
selection, and (lastly) price:

   The Grape and Granary (OH)  <http://www.grapeandgranary.com/>
   Brewer's Coop (IL)          <http://www.thebrewerscoop.com/>
   Northern Brewer (MN)        <http://www.northernbrewer.com/>
   Williams Brewing (CA)       <http://www.williamsbrewing.com/>

Williams is far from me, but tends to have those weird kegs parts
that are hard to find elsewhere.  For hops, it's hard to beat
Freshops <http://www.freshops.com/>.
   Hope that helps.  Standard disclaimers apply, i.e., I'm just
a satisfied customer.
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
East-central Illinois, USA



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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:30:25 -0400
From: "Russ&Nancy Tjepkema" <russtj at home.com>
Subject: chloramine (again)

My apologies upfront for bringing up this topic again, but I'm still unclear
about what is an effective brewing solution to chloramine treated water. My
community just converted to chloramine and before I brew my next batch I
wonder if there is a way to minimize it's impact on my beer's taste. So
bottom line --- should I worry about it? If so, what are you brewers doing
that works to get rid of it or minimize it - I previously filtered my water
with carbon filter. Thanks for the help in advance!

Russ Tjepkema
Virginia Beach. Va



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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:38:00 -0400 
From: "AYOTTE, ROGER C" <RCAYOT at solutia.com>
Subject: Chilling, Dry Corriandering

     Steve was wondering about a glycol powered chiller.  I would 
     suggest that after his counter-flow chiller, he add a 10' or so 
     length of copper coil immersed in ice.  I built a coil that I can 
     use as an immersion chiller, or as a "second stage" chiller.  This 
     should bring down the temperature of his wort to pitching, even for 
     a lager.  I must admit that this is pure theory right now as I 
     first used this coil to try to chill the water going to my 
     counter-flow chiller, but it didn't have enough "power" this 
     weekend I am going to try the second stage approach, I will keep 
     the HBD posted.
     
     As for "Dry Coriandering" I would suggest taking Dave Millers 
     advice and use ethanol or vodka to "extract" the flavors.  Soak the 
     coriander in the vodka for a week and then filter off the seeds.  
     Use the concentrate as a flavor extract, you can add as much as you 
     like, In fact this way allows you to adjust the coriander flavor to 
     your exact taste, because you can add some and the flavor should be 
     there immediately, taste, then adjust.  Or, if you have some very 
     fine pipettes, you can add the flavor to a small amount of brew, 
     adjust to taste, and then calculate how much you need for the whole 
     5 or 10 gallons!  
     
     Roger Ayotte


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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:58:54 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Hacker-Pschorr Oktoberfest

Thanks to all that responded to my inquiry about the label showing it to be
"Ale". Although I received no definitive answer, the general consensus was
that some states have archaic liquor laws that say if a beer is over a
certain alcohol percentage than it can't be labeled as beer. Considering
that Pennsylvania is the Quaker state with our own set of stupid laws, this
makes sense. Thanks to Wayne Aldrich who is living in Frankfurt for
confirming that Paulener did in fact buy Hacker-Pschorr recently.

No matter, it was good tasting beer.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:59:14 -0400 
From: "Schneider, Brett" <Brett_Schneider at bose.com>
Subject: HP Jornada Beer Software Wanted

Finally in hand is my new HP Jornada 540. Finally in hand is a need to play
catch up. Finally to you all are my needs:

I saw and read with delight many past postings about beer related software
available for Palm devices. But I did not save them or capture them for
current reference. I am looking for sources of software related to beer and
the BJCP I can load onto the new device and carry with me on my journies.
Are there sources out there for software and or CE compatible docs I can be
pointed to? Maybe John Varady was the leader? Direct replies appreciated.

Brett Schneider


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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:01:15 -0400 
From: Eli Daniel <edaniel at epesi.com>
Subject: censorship?!

Numerous people have expressed outrage at being asked to tone down the
content of their HBD posts for the benefit of "corporate bean counters".
Get a grip, folks.  Nobody's trying to censor you.

Like it or not, lots of us (myself included) receive the HBD at work.  Also
like it or not, lots of places (corporations and otherwise) filter their
incoming email.  Niether of these two things is going to change.  Given
that, all that's being asked to give a little consideration to the folks who
won't get their digests when the posts get raunchy.  Is it such a hardship
to just leave out the scatalogical content instead of demanding that your
fellow brewers should get different jobs or a new ISP? 

Eli Daniel
Somerville, MA


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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:07:52 -0400 
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: CORIANDER -DRY HOPPING?

hello -- tried this about 3 years ago with a spiced beer - worked great! -
however, unlike hops that only give aroma when used at this stage of the
game - coriander also lends flavor - still pretty good.

I took an ounce too for the dry-hopping - I grounded it lightly - basically
breaking it into  small pieces with a mortal and pestle.  and chucked it in
 - it floated for a couple of days and then sank to the bottom - I would
recommend sampling it everyday after it sinks to  determine the flavor
strength you want-- 

keep brewing
Steve


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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:30:32 GMT
From: "Steve Schultz" <steven_schultz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Need Advice on York, PA Brewpubs  

We are going to York, PA with friends and are looking for recommendations on 
brewpubs.  Please comment on these, or any others in the area:

Brick House Brewpub & Eatery 3320 E. Market St. York
Freedom Brewing 140 Roosevelt Ave. York
Whitetail Brewing Company 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. York
York Brewing Company 10 Roosevelt Ave. York

Thanks in advance,
Steve Schultz


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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 11:17:42 -0400
From: John Penn <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: dry-coriandering

Aaron asks about dry-coriandering...  I would suggest soaking the
coriander in a small amount of vodka for a few days.  Should have the
same effect as dry-hopping but with less worry about contamination.

Shane asks about the Gourmet Brewer...  I had asked about Dave Bartz
recently and I don't remember getting a definitive answer but it appears
that they are not around.

I finally tried Mash Hopping myself but now I read on the HBD--too
late--that you should use pellets.  My wife is still kind of miffed that
my recent bulk hops order from freshops.com is whole hops and is taking
up so much freezer space.  Got to find time to brew so I can make space
in the freezer!  I must say freshops was very prompt on my order but I
thought pellets were the norm.  I was kind of surprised that they only
seem to stock whole hops.  I think I prefer pellets myself and when I
use up the current 3# of whole hops I'll be looking for a bulk pellet
hop supplier myself.  There seems to be some hop flavor in my recent Rye
ESB but I've only had one sample so I can't say whether the mash hopping
with whole hops was successful or not.

I don't understand the fuss about "Aussie bandwidth" or trying to edit
the content of the HBD.  The page down key works fine for most of us and
its always interesting to get different perspectives from around the
world.

Anyone know what kind of hops are in "Hop Hazard" from River Horse
Brewery in Lambertville, NJ?  Interesting hop flavor.

Good to see Al K back on the HBD, I"m sure he's still quite busy with
those triplets.

John Penn
Eldersburg, MD





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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:08:46 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Suggestions?


My mother and stepfather are going to be in Prague for 2 weeks starting
Saturday.  Since I can't fit into their luggage, any suggestion on what
beer they can bring back would be appreciated.

Rgds
John Watts
watts at radiks.net



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:39:41 -0700
From: "Grant Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Mailorder, Dry Spicing

Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard asks in HBD 3444:

>Does anybody know of stores that do mail order supplies for home brewing?
>I knew of a store called the Gourmet Brewer run by a guy named Dave Bartz.
>Any ideas if they are still in business? Any other stores? TIA

My local homebrew shop Larrys Brewing Supply sells mail order.  Their 
catalog online:
http://www.larrysbrewing.com/online_cat/catalog_index.htm.  
Currently they do not take orders online but they do have an 800 
number 1-800-441-BREW.  I am not in any way affiliated except 
as a satisfied customer.  For items Larry's doesn't have I 've also 
used Williams Brewing, online at http://williamsbrewing.com.  
Neither am i affiliated with them.  I have had excellent service from both. 
Also note Northern Brewer at the top of the HBD page is generously 
sponsoring the next year of HBD DSL .

Aaron Robert Lyon  also asks:

>OK, so I brewed a holiday ale about two months ago and have it tucked
>away in the corner of my basement split into two 5 gal carboys.  I'm
>thinking about dry-coriandering one of the carboys with about 1 oz of
>cracked coriander seed and have two questions regarding this...

>1. Has anyone ever done dry additions with coriander before?  If so, how
>did they turn out?

>2. Are there any special precautions I should take before I add it (i.e.
>do I need to sanitize it somehow, etc)?

I have done this many times with coriander and other spices in my
own Yule Ales.  I think they turn out excellent but one never sees the
faults of one's own children, does one?  One oz. of coriander 
will be fairly strong, surely your holiday ale will be strongly
flavored enough to balance.  Do use freshly crushed whole 
coriander as the powdered supermarket stuff won't taste nearly as
good.

Usually i coarse crush spices in a mortar & pestle, put in a fine mesh 
nylon hop steeping bag and shove into the secondary carboy.  If i'm 
feeling nervous about the spice's history (could they be harboring
beer spoiling organisms?) i steam the bag and contents 20 minutes
or so in a vegetable steamer.  I do this in any case with the bag as it's
been reused many times and isn't sanitary. Another method is to boil
bag and all in minimal water for 10 - 20 minutes or so, then add spice 
"tea" and bag directly to the carboy.  

Hope this helps, and Prost!
 -LabRat
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, WA, USA



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 15:39:34 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Summertime Counterflow Chillers

Reading Mike's comments to Steve about running counterflow chillers in the
summertime prompts me to report on what I've done the past few batches
during some pretty hot weather here in Nashville. I came up with this idea
after talking with a few of our club members since our last big homebrew
club "brew-in" back in May for National Homebrew Day. Our city water is
pretty much near the surface and gets into the 70 degree F. range
throughout most of the summer. Initially, with my immersion chillers, I
found that a pre-chiller immersed in an ice bath helped, but took a lot of
ice, and a lot of time to get the temp down to pitching levels, and even
more difficult if not impossible to get a lager ready to go. So, I invested
in a counterflow unit, the MaxiChiller from Precision Brewing Systems.
First step was to knock the wort temp down with the immersion chiller alone
to 1) have some really hot water saved for clean-up, 2) bring the temp down
to one that allows for more agitation of the wort (HSA thread, anyone?), 3)
bring the temp down to one that wouldn't damage my 12 volt motor that keeps
me from depending so much on gravity. That worked OK with the pre-chiller
in tandem, but reduced the flow rate of the water because of the size of
the copper tubing I had for my pre-chiller. It still took a while, and I
wasn't satisfied with all the water I was using and trying to recycle by
watering plants around the yard.

Final solution was to get a $40 submersible pump (which I had bought anyway
to pump out my basement when we get those gully washer thunderstorms around
here in the spring that dump 5 inches of rain in one day!) that
recirculates the ice water through the counterflow chiller and back into
the recepticle (a 30 gal. plastic garbage can). It uses a paltry 5 to 10
gallons of water (just enough to cover the intake on the pump and 2 x 10#
bags of ice to chill 12 gallons of wort in about 10 minutes. At one point,
I had to shut the pump off because even with my wort flow wide open, the
temperature coming out was around 50 F! I then water my plants around the
yard with the leftover water. A couple of frozen milk jugs would probably
do just as well as the bags of ice. Works for me!

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 20:03:14 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: vienna malt vs. pale ale

A friend of mine just brewed a lager beer with british pale ale malt,
because he was hot to brew a lager and didn't have any pilsner malt on
hand. While this type of behavior horrifies me, it got me to wondering:
What, exactly, is the difference between vienna malt and british pale ale
malt?

British Pale Ale malt is typically 3 degrees lovibond, and the Weissheimer
Vienna malt that I have on hand is listed as the same. I believe some
vienna malts go a little higher, like 5 degrees or so, but in my case, with
the 3 degree vienna, would there be any flavor difference, and if so, why?



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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:38:17 -0400
From: djazzie at juno.com
Subject: adelscott

I was in France recently and this beer that was phenomenal, called
Adelscott!  One of the ingredients is whisky malt.  I really want to try
to make this beer.  If anyone knows what the name of the malt I should
use is, as well as any clone recipes they might have seen, please let me
know!  Flavor-wise, it's kind of like a smoke-beer, but  a little
sweeter.  Thanks for your help.

Daniel


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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:32:19 +1300 
From: Brian Myers <BrianM at AdvantageGroup.co.nz>
Subject: dry-coriandering

Aaron asks about dry-coriandering - I've done
this several times.  My suggestion is to make a
"spice tea" - it solves your sanitation issue, and
extracts more flavor.  My usual practice now is
to combine the "spice tea" with the priming sugar.
As Aaron suggests, use whole coriander seeds, NOT
pre-ground.  When you crush the coriander yourself
and smell it, you'll know why - that aroma just isn't
there with the pre-ground stuff.

regards,
Brian


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