---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Pitch Temp for Lagers ("Jeff Lewis")
  defining terms ("Alan McKay")
  Newbie Extraction (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Lager Yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Re: flaked oats (Jeff Renner)
  Oats, and oat effect on sparging ("John Stegenga")
  Combination mash tun (Mjbrewit)
  Decoction question, plus some bragging on my new kettle... ("Dave Howell")
  Canadian Yeast Culturing? ("Mark Ellis")
  A Digest of Quality (David Lamotte)
  Water (Keith Busby)
  Copper v Stainless (Headduck)
  Cleaning counter flow chiller?? (Ralph Link)
  Chilling out (Aaron Perry)
  oh yeah! (Aaron Perry)
  German Ale Yeast 1007 (Petr Otahal)
  Zymurgy, AHA and its New Board ("FatCat")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 02:01:40 -0400
From: "Jeff Lewis" <jlewis92 at alumni.princeton.edu>
Subject: Pitch Temp for Lagers

Wayne wrote:

"Hello, I'm a long time reader first time poster.
I have had mixed success with all grain brewing for
about a year. I usually brew ales (kolsch or hefeweizen).
I have attempted several lagers with mixed results,
mostly poor. My question is about starters, I always make
up a yeast starter about 2 days before I brew.
Since lager yeast likes cooler bottom fermenting temperatures
should I pitch my starter at lager temps i.e. 50 deg or so?
Thanks in advance for any responses."

I've heard advice to pitch at warmer temps and then lower once it gets
going.  In anticipation of someone suggesting this, may I throw in a
question here too?  My question on this is that to the same degree that
you've allowed the yeast to "get going" at these warmer temps, haven't you
caused/encouraged the very fermentation by-products that the lower temp is
supposed to eliminate/reduce?

JL



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:49:29 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: defining terms

Actually "wanker" is a term which is perfectly common in Canada.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:01:39 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Newbie Extraction

Steve Alexander ( Steve-Alexander at worldnet.att.net) writes:

<  newbie all grainer + poor extraction = sparge problems.>

It has been my experiance that  "newbe all grainer + poor crush = poor
extraction."

Newbies try to follow the old Corona mill advice of "Just barely crush the
malt."  While that is good advice for burr mills such as the Corona where
it is very difficult to control husk damage, such advice, if followed with
a good roller mill, leaves a lot of endosperm unexposed to strike water. 
This can be checked by squeezing the cones left from the ends of corns
after the mash.  If they pop starch, you did not get what you paid for.

My advice is to use a roller mill that has been adjusted to the point that
all but the most underdeveloped corns are no longer whole.  If your mill
can't be adjusted or is too much of a pain to bother adjusting, run the
grist through twice or so.  All our mills can be adjusted with a flick of
the wrist after a crank or two to inspect the grist.

Dan Listermann 

Check out our new E-tail site at www.listermann.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:08:25 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lager Yeast

Wayne Aldrich <Aldrich4 at surf1.de>, who evidently lives in Germany, so 
it's no wonder he doesn't usually brew lagers (would I even brew?), 
writes
>
>I have attempted several lagers with mixed results,
>mostly poor. My question is about starters, I always make
>up a yeast starter about 2 days before I brew. 
>Since lager yeast likes cooler bottom fermenting temperatures
>should I pitch my starter at lager temps i.e. 50 deg or so?

This has been discussed quite a bit here in the past and I have been 
convinced that it is indeed best to pitch at the lager fermenting 
temperature.  There are recommendations elsewhere to start warm and 
drop it, and this will result in shorter lag times, but I think that 
it's best to pitch LOTS of yeast.  Yeast from a gallon starter is not 
too much, and repitching is best.  I like to use a fluid ounce (25-30 
ml) of thick, pasty yeast per gallon of wort.  Perhaps there is a 
friendly local lager brewery that can provide you with some surplus 
yeast.  If you pitch enough, you will get quick ferments and good, 
clean results.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:19:29 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: flaked oats

"Paul Mahoney" <pmmaho at earthlink.net> asks about the difference 
between old fashioned rolled oats and quick oats and flaked oats. 
They are interchangeable for brewing purposes, and I can't imagine 
why Miller writes:

>"Note that the recipe specifies flaked oats made specifically for
>brewing. Do not substitute rolled oats (oatmeal)if you expect to sparge in
>a reasonable amount of time."

I think this is silly.  I don't think there is any difference.  They 
are all unmalted oats that have been wetted and then rolled between 
heated rollers, which gelatinizes the starches and dries the oats. 
Quick oats are made of broken "grits" and rolled thinner, so they 
cook (absorb water, actually, as they are already cooked) more 
quickly.  I have used quick and thick rolled oats in reasonably high 
amounts with no lautering problems.  The grocery store oats are lots 
cheaper.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:02:12 -0400
From: "John Stegenga" <john at stegenga.net>
Subject: Oats, and oat effect on sparging

In HBD 3458, Paul Mahoney asks about oats.

I have used Quick Oats right into the mash, and I've also prepared them
(with double the water) as per directions on the package.  Both way's seem
to work just fine, but I still do a little 'cereal mash' just because.

As to the effect of oats on a sparge with CPVC manifold, I have a 48qt
rectangular Coleman with drilled hard copper manifold and I've not had a
stuck sparge.  The only time I even think about rice hulls is when I do my
WIT, which is almost 60% 'hull-less' grains (wheat and oats).  When I brew
that beer I put 2 measured dry cups of rice hulls in.


John C. Stegenga, Jr., Woodstock, GA.

Visit my website: http://www.stegenga.net
Need to search the web? http://www.stegenga.net/searchpage.htm
Want your own STEGENGA.NET website? Ask Me How!



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 20:05:29 EDT
From: Mjbrewit at aol.com
Subject: Combination mash tun

After homebrewing for over a dozen years now ten of which have been all 
grain, I can't imagine lautering and mashing different vessels.   At one time 
I did (phils phalse bottom), but never again.  It's simply an extra step to 
transfer the grain.  With a nonbeer drinking wife and two small children 
demanding my time, efficiency is a necessity or I can't brew.   I simply cut 
the top off an old sanke keg, enough so it fits right on the stove.  It holds 
up to 30 lbs of grain (with mash water) which is plenty for ten gallon 
batches or mega five gallon brews.  Its wide so the grain does not pile too 
high (no stuck mashes).  I use a false bottom from Sabco ($35) that sits 1.5 
inches from the bottom of the keg where it begins to taper.   You can also 
purchase an outlet from them for a side drain valve, but I chose to outlet it 
underneath along the bottom of the keg out to the side (brass fittings from 
Menards).  I use foil wrap bubble insulation (Menards) as a jacket.  I duct 
taped velcro straps to it for easy removal, when firing up the stove.  I use 
an old 8 gallon enamel lid for the top and put two towels over that.  You can 
easily do step infusion, or decoction, whatever you want.  The mash temp 
stays within 2 degrees over the course of an hour, but I can add heat if 
necessary.  Very simple design that works like a charm.  Transfering the 
mash?....thats too much like work.  My next step is to hook up a motorized 
stirrer.  Anyone need more details let me know.  


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:43:18 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net>
Subject: Decoction question, plus some bragging on my new kettle...

Howdy,


Well, Saturday dawned, but not bright and clear, in Phoenix.  One of those
other thirty days a year we don't have perfect sunshine (it's raining), but
great for brewing.  Of course, it's finally COOL enough to brew.

So, I fired up the NeuBrewerei (tm) [as opposed to the AltBrewerei, which
literally kicked the bucket], with the new Sabco Turkey Fryer as boil/mash
kettle.  Wow, what a nice thing to own!  I highly recommend it for infusion
and decoctions (I sparge in a Zapap bucket arrangement).

The brew was a Czech/German pilsner.  I did a single decoction (the thick
part), then maintained the rest with occasional blasts of propane heat.

A question for those who 'spurment (Pivos, et. al):  has anyone done single
vs. double decoctions?  This was a first of any kind of decoction for me
(always done step-infusion).  If it works out well, then I'll keep doing it
(will go to doubles when I can afford another kettle for a HLT, and free up
my current sparge heater/decoction masher).  Which of the two (three for PU)
decoctions actually adds the most character and flavor to the finished
product?  Should I do one preferentially over another?

To finish the brew session:
1.4 oz of 6.5% AA Hallertauer Mittlefrau FWH'ed, this will be a Christmas
party brew, no sense in scaring anyone with hops!  I got a bit over 83%
efficiency doing the decoction and using the new mash kettle.  This beats my
old record by six whole percentage points!  I also got a whole lot more wort
than I anticipated (I used to lose a bit in boiling between two containers,
and racking off the wort from the boil, etc.  I also decided I will never
use whole hops without a muslin or nylon bag again (what a mess to clean
out!).

A MUCH shorter boil than I was accustomed to (greater amout of sugar, better
boiler covered more of the propane burner, could crank it up), 45 min (0.6
oz of finish/aroma hops), counterflowed into carboy at 63 deg F.  I think
I'll ask for a fountian pump for the chiller this Christmas... maybe I can
get that down to 35 deg F or so (with icewater in the chiller system).

It's sitting in the chest freezer (at 40 deg F), waiting for stuff to
settle, then we'll rack it and pitch Wyeast Bohemian Pils tomorrow.  The
starter is bubbling away nicely in the pantry, so we'll turn up the freeze
temp to 54 tomoroow.

I have pretty high hopes for this brew!


Dave Howell
Somewhere in the Valley of the Sun, very far from the center of the brewing
universe.


Costello: You know I'm a catcher too.
Abbott: So they tell me.
Costello: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's
pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts
the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw
the guy out at first. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.

Costello: I don't even know what I'm talking about!




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:04:22 +1000
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark at glacierdesign.net>
Subject: Canadian Yeast Culturing?

G'day Brewers,

OK yeast ranchers out there, can someone tell me if they have had experience
reculturing yeast from the two Canadian brews, and if so, then what was you
opinion of their quality.

Blanche de Chambly
Trois Pistoles

Thanks a million!

Mark E. in Southern Oi Oi Oi land



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:11:48 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: A Digest of Quality

A quick note of thanks to all the contributors of Saturday's digest - It 
was a work of uniformly high quality.

I had just come inside from a long and arduous brewday (should have started
earlier and must get that new mashtun built), and was entertained and
informed by a quick read of the digest before bed.

So to Phil, Doc, fridgeguy and even Stephen Alexander (and all you other
guys that I have missed) thanks for making my day.

By the way Phil, I have also worked in places like that and strangely
enough it was just north of Townsville !

David.


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:56:37 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Water

I have now made four or five batches using the hard untreated water from my
well at the new res. I have generally used just a couple of drops of lactic
to adjust the ph of the mash and added a couple of drops of same to the
sparge water. The beers have by and large been quite good but I think I am
noticing a lack of body (despite the use of carapils in most of the
recipes)  and reduced hop bitterness. The efficiency has been quite good,
between 75 and 80%. Does this make any chemical sense? The addition of the
acid to the sparge water seems to cause much higher precipitation of salts.
I have not had the water analysed. I know some brewers in southern
Wisconsin (hi, Nathan) do not use the local water.

Keith Busby


Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:17:50 EDT
From: Headduck at aol.com
Subject: Copper v Stainless

In a message dated 10/20/00 11:19:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< I just got a roll of about 50 feet of stainless steel .5 in I.D. tubing. I 
was
 thinking about making a new chiller. Dose anyone have an idea as to the heat
 transfer of stainless compared to copper? My thinking is that copper is more
 efficient..... but stainless should outlast it. Also, at .5 in it may work
 out. The other fix I'm in is how to tighten the coil. It's too big to fit in
 the keg as is.....but it is pretty hard to bend. Mabey I'll pull it tight
 around a form?
 
 Any Ideas or info would be much appreciated
 
 thanks,
 AP  >>

>From The Fundementals of Heat Transfer by Incropera and Dewitt, Copper has a 
thermal conductivity of 401 Watts/ meter*K and Stainless steel varies from 
14.2 to 15.1 Watts/ meter *K, these properties are at 300 degree K and 
decrease as temperature rises for copper and increase as temperature rises 
for the stainless (but not much).  What this means is that stainless, while 
great for other uses in the brewhouse, is a lousy conductor of heat and 
therefore not the material you are looking for for a chiller.

Joe Yoder
brewer and engineer



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:22:20 -0500
From: Ralph Link <rlink at escape.ca>
Subject: Cleaning counter flow chiller??

Our last two batches of all grain have developed an infection. We put 
considerable effort into cleaning, sanitizing, and just general 
housekeeping. We wash all our tanks with chlorine based cleaner and spot 
clean with a powerful idophor solution. We suspect, however that we are not 
getting the 50 feet of 3/8" copper chiller as clean as we could. Can anyone 
out there recommend a method and product that will ensure the chiller is 
ready to use. Personal E-mail would be appreciated.
Thanks people



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:39:03 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: Chilling out

HI all.

A couple of days ago I posted a question about using some S.S. tubing as a
chiller.....I forgot to mention I was planning an immersion
chiller....however, a counterflow isn't out of the question. 

my main reasons for shying from the counter flow are:
1. My converted keg boiling kettle has a siphon/pickup tube dead center, not
great for whirlpools! 
2. I  would rather not transfer my cool wort to get it off all of that cold
break you counterflowers' must get in the primary! 

I always use at least some whole hops, chill and drain . the hops act as a
filter along with the S.S. screen---little trub in the primary, no racking
necessary. I'm a lazy man, what can I say? If any one can talk me out of my
current thinking plese go ahead!! A CF would be a hell of a lot easier to
build (the S.S. is already coiled, It's a bugger to re coil it!) (I can use
bugger 'cause in OZ they don't filter their mail content.....Graham...fix me a
cot I'm movin' in!! Scary that they might be the last sensible place around!!)

Thanks for all the responses, they have definitely started the gears turning!

AP


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:43:30 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: oh yeah!

Sorry,

I just saw Ralph's subject line in the "current queue" list and I remembered
the biggest reason for not diggin CF's. Is it really worth the extra cleaning
and sanitizing only to have to rack off a big trub blanket?!

AP
- -- 
"Just think, I turned to a cult for mindless happiness,
when I had beer all along..."
Homer J. Simpson


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:06:13 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: German Ale Yeast 1007

Hi

I have a small question about Wyeast 1007 German Ale.
On the Wyeast website the temperature specs say that this yeast ferments
down to 55F (13C), has anyone fermented with this yeast at such a low
temperature.

The reason I ask is that I have just recently lost the means to ferment at
my usual 65-68F (19-20C). So I am looking for a yeast that will ferment in
the room under my house which is a fairly constant 57-59F (14-15C).

Thanks
Pete



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:26:49 -0400
From: "FatCat" <fatcat at homebrew.com>
Subject: Zymurgy, AHA and its New Board

I enjoy the new Zymurgy.  The Bock article was sophomoric and
 had too much wasted space for the information provided.  It 
seems better than it recently was.

AHA.  Hummm...  Ever tried to find out anything on the AHA site?
This day I tried to find a list of the club-only brews.  The 
discussion of trhe subject was last updated in March 2000, 
at the end of this years competitions.  Is there a list of 
styles for this year?  I also wanted information on starting a
club.  Great info telling you the advantages of a club, how to 
go non-profit, how to be appropriately touchy-feely 
adayadayada...but nowhere could I find a simple list saying 
"do this dummy, send us your $X, and we will give you..."

I remember a year or so ago, it seems some then 'outsider' but
 now newly elected members of the AHA Board were demanding 
detailed info on AHA 'personal data' like salaries, suggesting
malfeasance etc.  Let's see what is forthcoming.  I wonder if 
their skin will be as thick as the Board's was when they were 
firing the barbs (heeheehee), we've seen how some react to minor
criticism

__________________________________________________
Do You Homebrew?!
Get your free  at homebrew.com email account!
http://mail.homebrew.com/


Return to table of contents

---