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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Berliner Weisse (Spencer W Thomas)
  gene therapy for alcoholism (ensmingr)
  re: discolored immersion chiller (Matt)
  re: milk jugs ("D Perry")
  Re: When to stop sparging (John Schnupp)
  Copper and acids / Smoked Wheat And Rye Black beer (Tony Barnsley)
  Re: Propane Indoors (Todd Goodman)
  Re:  homebrew at the legislature ("Dennis Collins")
  Lock for refridgerator ("Jeff Huck")
  Re: propane indoors (Rob Dewhirst)
  When to Stop Sparging (Nathan Kanous)
  propane indoors ("Robin Griller")
  Cyser -priming (LJ Vitt)
  Third Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results ("H. Dowda")
  Iodophor stains ("Drew Avis")
  wheat haze woes (Steven S)


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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:48:09 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse 

It "is" the real thing.  

Actually Berliner Weisse ages and travels well, which is amazing
considering how "light" a beer it really is.

That said, I find Kindl Weisse, as good as it is, to be a pale shadow
of the other Berliner Weisse, Schultheiss.  Unfortunately, Schultheiss
is not available in this country. (I have tasted hand-carried samples
of both, side by side.)

=S
>>>>> "Steven" == Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> writes:


    Steven> How similar to the real thing is the imported Berliner
    Steven> Weisse (bottled)?



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:24:32 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: gene therapy for alcoholism

For those of you with an alcohol problem, which surely cannot be
many among the HBD readers, I saw the following item of interest
from the recent issue of JAMA:

Gene therapy to deliver extra copies of a dopamine receptor may
someday help alcoholics and drug addicts recover, report
scientists
from the Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory.

Previous Brookhaven research suggested that over time, alcohol
and
drug abuse destroy D2 dopamine receptors in the brain, essential
for
a normal pleasure response. To override this blunted response,
addicts increase their drinking and drug using. The Brookhaven
team
hypothesized that adding D2 receptors might therefore decrease
alcohol intake.

In the experiments, rats trained to drink large amounts of
alcohol
received injections into the brain of a deactivated virus that
ferried
copies of the gene for D2 to the nucleus accumbens, known as the
brain's pleasure center and an area associated with the
reinforcing
effects of alcohol.

Among the rats that initially preferred alcohol, those that
received the
D2 gene drank 64% less alcohol than rats that received only a
placebo virus with no genes. Even rats with an initially low
preference
for alcohol showed significant reductions in their preference for
and
intake of alcohol after treatment with the D2 gene.

"This is the first evidence that overproduction of D2 receptors
reduces
alcohol intake and suggests that high levels of D2 may be
protective
against alcohol abuse in humans," said lead researcher Panayotis
Thanos, PhD. "This gives us great hope that we can refine this
treatment for future clinical use."

However, the reduction in drinking preference and behavior was
transient, with both measures returning to baseline within 8
days. But
a second treatment with the D2 genes produced the same dramatic
effect. The researchers are working on a better virus vector that
will
have longer-lasting effects (J Neurochem. 2001;78:1094-1103).

- --
Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY




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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:25:22 -0400
From: Matt <shwalker at geocities.com>
Subject: re: discolored immersion chiller

 >Tom Williams said:
 >Perhaps one of the HBD metallurgists could comment on the process forming 
these
 >deposits on Tidmarsh's copper chiller.  I don't know what PBW is
 >(iodine? bleach?), but it sounds like the source of the corrosion deposits.

Well, I'm no metallurgist, but I tend to agree. I use PBW myself for 
cleaning my kettle and fermenters out. PBW is a mixture of silicate and 
phosphate compounds and surfacants (according to the MSDS). The resulting 
solution is fairly basic, thus there should be a good amount of hydroxide 
ions available to react with copper (pH of 1% SOLUTION: 11-12 according to 
the MSDS).

Copper can react with hydroxide to form copper(II) hydroxide, although this 
normally occurs when the copper is already dissolved as ions. The weak 
acidity of wort will cause some of the copper to be dissolved, but I'd not 
suspect this to me much.

Copper(II) hydroxide can break down to form copper(II) oxide, which is black.
         Cu(OH)2 --> CuO + H2O

So I'm not quite sure why the reaction is starting, the pieces to come to 
that ending are certainly present. I'd not recommend using PBW or other 
basic solutions on your copper.

Though I use PWB on my kettle, my chiller receives a different treatment. I 
clean my chiller by boiling it in a solution of water and vinegar and then 
rinse off, similar to what Todd Bissel recommended. However since I heat 
mine I can get away with a much lower concentration, about 2 cups of 
vinegar in 4 gallons of water. Copper dissolves easily in the presence of 
acids, and the weakly acidic vinegar solution takes a very thin layer of 
copper off the surface, leaving fresh, bright copper behind. As soon as it 
turns clean, it's time to take it out (This process would take a long time 
(months perhaps) to dissolve off any noticeable percentage of the copper 
pipe, but why leave it in longer than needed).


Cheers and good luck.

- -------------------------
Matt Kettler
shwalker at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5066



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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:02:42 -0700
From: "D Perry" <daperry75 at home.com>
Subject: re: milk jugs

"D Perry" <daperry75 at home.com>, from some undisclosed location (Dave, just
a quick and friendly reminder to folks posting on the HBD: it is helpful
for posters to put where they are geographically fixed, often in Rennerian
coordinates, to allow others who reply the courtesy of having some
additional bits of information that might help in answering your question)


I am from Canada, but BC, not Quebec.  Prince George BC, to be exact.  I
could give you long and lat cooridnates, but I didn't think them necessary.
Sorry I didn't include all this info.  I am only a second time poster.  Now
I know and knowing is half the battle (GI JOE).  Heh.  My attempt at humor.

I appreciate the responses I got I think I will stick with glass jugs.  I
might use a couple of those 1 liter flip lid bottles, or maybe a 2 litre
plastic pop bottle.  Any thoughts?  (Notice there are two spellings of
liter, all depends on the teacher)

Thanks, and don't take this post the wrong way, this is a friendly forum. :)

Dave Perry
Prince George, BC, Canada



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: When to stop sparging

I guess I just don't get it.  Seems there have been several posts about needing
to cool the wort sample before taking the SG.  Are there not temperature
correction factors?

OK, so it probably won't be exact, but let's be real here.  Is is really
possible to tell the difference in a beer that stopped sparging at 1.010 and
one that stopped at 1.012?

Take a sample.  Take a SG and temp measurement.  Use the temp correction
factor.  Done.




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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:25:37 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Copper and acids / Smoked Wheat And Rye Black beer

Matthew Kettler Said

> Copper dissolves easily in the presence of acids, and the weakly acidic
>  vinegar solution takes a very thin layer of copper off the surface,
> leaving fresh, bright copper behind.

Now I am not a metallurgist, nor do I play one on TV . . . but

Clean copper metal DOES NOT REACT WITH ANY ACID!! Although that's not
strictly true either, copper does not react with the hydrogen ions in the
acid as it lies below hydrogen in the reactivity series. Copper will react
with nitric acid but does so by reacting with the nitrate ion to yield some
salt and nitrogen dioxide (I think :> ). Interestingly although this is done
with conc. nitric usually the same reaction will take place with nitrate
ions in water, So if your brewing liquor is high in nitrates you will get
some copper leached into the solution, but it happens very slowly.

It's a different story with dirty oxidised copper though. Copper oxide is
soluble in acid even weak organic acids. So immersing a dirty (but
sanitised) coil in your beer will increase the level of copper ions in the
beer. Its much faster at warmer temperatures, and this is what we see in the
boiler, the dirty copper manifold / pickup comes out really clean.

Copper also doesn't really react with alkalines as it acts as a base anyway
(Which is why its salts react with acids), but then its a transition element
so does some really funny things. As it happens its also a funny transition
element having a full 3d electron shell and a half filled 4s electron shell,
All (most) other trannies have a full 4s and a partially full 3d

Having said all that, A weakly acidic solution will clean the deposits off
the copper surface ;-'>

And it was no Joke about the Black Smoked Wheat Rye Beer, I may even change
some of the Carafa III malt for some roasted rye malt, It depends if we can
get Carafa malt imported into the UK sometime this century!! I really want
the dark colour without the roastiness of Barley or Black Patent.

- --
Wassail!
The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Rennerian Coordinates ( I'm a man I don't admit that I'm Lost ;-'> )

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              Managed by home brewers for home brewers

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:12:11 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Propane Indoors

In HBD #3763 Dion Hollenbeck writes:
> I am very puzzled here.  While some people may do stupid things with
> propane indoors, and nearly kill themselves, there are a huge amount of
> homes out there that do not have natural gas, but heat and cook with
> propane.  Yes, propane is dangerous, but only if you screw up.  Otherwise
> the whole county I live in would not have any heat, or houses would be
> blowing up regularly.

The difference is that they have tanks that are always outside the house
(and usually away from the house some distance if large enough).

So far, most people are talking about the small, portable tanks which
are designed to vent propane if the pressure gets too high (like
possibly when bringing a full tank from outside inside).

> The burners in my brewery are propane fired, piped in at 15 psi from
> outside.  When I am done brewing the valve on the inside of the brewery is
> turned off, and the valve supplying that pipe from the outside of the
> building is also turned off.  The handles are removed and stored out of
> reach in the brewery.  There is nothing unsafe about propane handled
> correctly.  All connections should be tight and tested with soap solution.
> Or in the case of the piping in my walls, tested with air pressure at 30
> psi for weeks without loss.
> 
> Just my $0.02 for what it is worth.
> 
> dion

All good suggestions.  I wouldn't have any problems using propane piped
from outside the house.

Now, I wanted to point out a couple things that have been mentioned, but
I'd like to give my experience.

I brew on a commercial stove (a real commercial stove, no insulation,
has to be six inches away from all combustables including the wall).

Unlike many home projects, this was inspected by the building inspector
and fire department.  In fact, the fire departement required a fire
supression system which in turn required a stainless steel restaurant
hood and mushroom fan outside the wall (which all cost more than the
stove in the first place).  It also required a full inch gas line run
from the meter outside the house straight to the stove.

The building inspector was *very* concerned about CO generation.  Not so
much from the by products of a regular burn of the burners, but from
lack of "make-up" air (oxygen) which he said causes very poor combustion
and produces more CO.

He required a hard wired CO detector, hard wired heat detector and two
8" square vents punched through the wall.

I also have one of the usual CO detectors located near the stove with a
digital readout.

If I forget to turn the exhaust fan on and turn a single burner on full
(30,000btu burners) then I can see the CO levels climb rapidly on the
detector.  I also know that the hardwired CO detector works as well (it
causes all the fire alarms in the house to go off).  With the exhaust
fan on and the vents open, it drops to zero quite rapidly.

So, in my experience, even if you've made sure that you are storing the
gas used safely, please be very careful about ventilation, not just
removing combustion products, but bringing in make up air as well.

My $.02 for what it's worth as well,

Todd


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:50:55 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  homebrew at the legislature

Joe mentions that homebrewing in Mississippi is not legal.  I read that and
almost laughed out loud.  Not because I didn't believe it, but because
that's where my whole homebrewing experience got started!  Mississippi, from
county to county, has some of the most screwed up liquor laws that you have
ever seen.  Coming originally from California where you can get anything
from Budweiser to Everclear in the grocery store, and then moving to rural
Mississippi in the early 90's, I was simply amazed at the "control" that the
state puts on it's residents as to when and where we could buy and drink
alcohol.

A friend turned me on to homebrewing in 1992 while I was living in Iuka,
MS(pronounced eye-you-ka) in Tishomingo county and it never even occurred to
me to check and see if it was legal or not.  Tishomingo was a dry county, so
I at least knew that once the wort became beer that I was skirting the law,
but I had no idea that the process itself was forbidden.

My advice to the discouraged Mississippi resident is two-fold:

First, has he thought about moving to another state?  I did.

Second, he is fighting a HUGE uphill battle attacking this through the
"proper" political channels.  I admire his passion, but from my perspective
on Mississippi politics, any state with laws about alcohol as screwed up as
them has a whole other agenda (I'll lay odds that it's tax revenue) and
about 150 years of political growing up to do.  All this to say - keep on
brewin'!  Turn your friends on to homebrewing in MS, hold brew-outs, give a
ton of homebrew away, send a case of homebrew to the state legislature, in
other words - thumb your nose at the establishment!  Start a homebrew
revolt!

Or you could just move.

FWIW,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:50:33 -0600
From: "Jeff Huck" <jeff-huck at home.com>
Subject: Lock for refridgerator

Hi all,  I've decided to move my keg fridge in from the garage to keep =
it in the 70F range while a couple of ale's finish fermenting.  My wife =
is concerned about our 2.5 year old son, who loves to play in boxes, =
etc.  (I don't know what I'd do, either, if something happened to the =
beer in there :) ). =20

Currently, I have one of the stick-on plastic child proof latches on the =
door, but with a good tug even the 2 year old could get the door open =
and climb inside.  I went to the hardware store to get something more =
permanent, but all of the locking latches looked like they would be to =
shallow to reach all the way around the door to the side (approx. 3 =
inches).  The screws didn't look like they would hold very well either.

Does anyone have a working lock mechanism for a small fridge?  It is a =
small Kenmore, dorm-type fridge.

Thanks,
Jeff
Salt Lake City, Ut



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:30:54 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: propane indoors

At 12:54 AM 10/17/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>I am very puzzled here.  While some people may do stupid things with
>propane indoors, and nearly kill themselves, there are a huge amount of
>homes out there that do not have natural gas, but heat and cook with
>propane.  Yes, propane is dangerous, but only if you screw up.  Otherwise
>the whole county I live in would not have any heat, or houses would be
>blowing up regularly.
>

It's the 200K BTU burners running in small unventilated spaces that are the 
the problem, not propane, per se.  Most propane home appliances are vented 
(all flame fired water heaters are, as well as most furnaces) and the BTU 
rating of the typical propane stove top is usually in the 5-10K BTU range.

FWIW, there HAVE been cases where both NAT and LP users in home have nearly 
killed themselves.  Sealing up the cold house on Thanksgiving while running 
every burner on the stove, the furnace, etc., all at the same time.



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:16:16 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: When to Stop Sparging

Hi All,
I've read with interest the methods that people use for identifying when to 
stop sparging.  I've tried measuring the SG of the runoff.  You know 
what?  Seems like too much work for me.

Yeah, I know it's a hobby and we can get into these types of things.  Hell, 
Jeff Renner's got a refractometer.  What a toy!  I'll bet that Jeff would 
tell you that it's just an expensive toy, but he's invested money in it an 
he uses it (he may even make better beer because of it).  What on earth is 
this blabbermouth (me) getting at?

How do I sparge?  As many people make negative comments about Charlie P, 
I'll give him a plug.  First book I owned described a way of making beer 
from all-grain (clearly voodoo stuff for a beginner).  There was a table of 
"amounts" of mash and sparge water to use and such.  I use 1.25 quarts per 
pound of malt to mash and I sparge with 1/2 gallon per pound of malt.

Yup, it's crude.  Yup, it uses those ugly units of quarts and pounds as 
opposed to something simple like liters and kilograms.  Problem is, it's 
worked for me for 6+ years.  I think I make some decent beer at my 
house.  Stop by and I'd be more than willing to share a pint or two with you.

Just a thought for how someone that is less than enthused about using a 
hydrometer during mashing may approach this.  Sometimes simple works.

Everybody have a great day!
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:48:21 -0400
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: propane indoors

Hi all,

Dion makes the point for me in his post: his propane tank is OUTSIDE.
Propane tanks should not come indoors. If, as many people do you, you have
properly 'plumbed' propane with the tank outside, it should be no problem.
Taking propane tanks inside, on the other hand, .....

Robin



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cyser -priming

Stefan asked:

>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:38:32 -0500
>From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com>
>Subject: Post Question

>HBD, 

>I have started a batch of Cyser that has been sitting for two weeks now 
>and
>I plan on transferring to a secondary.  What is the time limit that I 
>should
>let the Cyser sit in the secondary?

Maximum time? I usually take at least a year to bottle a mead.
I go until I know it is very clear.  Put a lighted light bulb
beside the carboy.  You should be able to read the label on top 
of the bulb through the mead.  I rack it several times, with 1-6
month intervals between rackings.  I also try to avoid any finings.



>  It was made with 4 gallons of 
>fresh
>Cider and 4 lbs of honey and I used a Whitelabs Cider yeast that was 
>amazing
>( I would recommend to anyone, due to the activity and speed of 
>firing).
>The primary ferment was amazing and vigorous, like a snow storm.  I 
>also
>plan on bottling and would like suggestions on what level of sugar/malt 
>to
>prime 4 gallons with.  Any help or comments on Cysers would be 
>great.....


>Stefan Berggren
 

Priming:  I use frozen concentrated apple juice to prime cysers 
and ciders.  For 5 gallons, I use the whole can of concentrate.  
For 4 gallons, use 4/5 of the can.  Thaw the can, measure the 
volume of the contents and go from there. 
Cyser is the only mead I have primed.

 - Leo



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Third Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results

Visit

http://www.sagecat.com/psboresults.htm

for results.



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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:24:36 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Iodophor stains

Brewers: has anyone found an effective way to remove the tea-coloured stains
that iodophor leaves on a light-coloured counter top?  Last night I hit them
with some pure bleach, which only seems to have made them cleaner, brighter,
more noticable stains.  Luckily for me SWMBO believes they are from tea
bags, and not from my sloppy mixing during frantic moments of brewing
("Where the * at #! is that sterilizer?  Better mix up some more in this small
bowl...").

Cheers!
Drew Avis in Merrickville (yep, that's E. Ontario) - 9 hours 8 min, or 793.4
km from Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:10:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: wheat haze woes

I've been following some of the haze threads quite closely. Currently my
latest attempt at a batch of Raspberry Wheat sits in the
"clearing" carboy, and quite frankly, its murky. Red, sweet, sour & high
alcohol level but murky. I used 5lbs of torrified wheat, which i've used
in all my all-grain batches using wheat. Would it be logical to probably
do a protein rest of the wheat first? I'm using american 2-row as my base
grain, single step mash. I'm thinking of dumping in some gelatin in
tomorrow to see if it helps clear it any. I dont want crystal clear but it
would be nice to be able to get light thru it.



 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net

"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. 
And the tigers are getting hungry." Winston Churchill - 1937




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