HOMEBREW Digest #3986 Thu 11 July 2002

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  Upcoming trips and local watering holes. ("Milone, Gilbert")
  Re: Tampa brewpubs ("Chad Gould")
  Fermenting under pressure - The New Brewer (Ray Daniels)
  Beer Builds Strong Bones (Rick)
  RE: Tampa Fl Brews ("Craig Williams")
  Building a Copper Chiller ("Drew Avis")
  Re: Visiting Belgium (Joe Preiser)
  Re: Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter clone recipe? (Denny Conn)
  Dortmund Water, Decoction, & Mash pH? ("Michael J. Roman")
  RE: Lou Bonham on the AHA (Paul Shick)
  Re: Making a weight percent solution - Plato ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Astringency problems with rice hulls? (Paul Shick)
  retrograded starch (Marc Sedam)
  Re: retrograded starch (Alan McKay)
  Re: batch sparging and stirring grain (Kevin Crouch)
  re: Tampa Fla. brews ("Mark Tumarkin")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:59:39 -0400 From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu> Subject: Upcoming trips and local watering holes. Bill Wrote--- On Sunday the 21st of July I will be traveling to Groton CT. from State College PA on business. I will only be there for one day. (Well closer to about 18 hours. I arrive Sunday install our software at Pfizer on Monday and leave Monday afternoon.) This gives me about 2 meals in the area and I am looking for suggestions. If someone from the area could point me to the tastier local spots (brew pubs with take out preferred) I would appreciate it. Hi Bill, Bill, hmmm lets see around Groton there aren't really any brewpubs. There are several dive bars, and places of the like. If you want to make a bit of a drive from groton up to Willimantic, take 95 south(yes south) to 32 north, to 395 north, back to 32 north, there is an excellent brew pub called the Willimantic Brewing Company. It is housed in the old post office. http://www.willibrew.com/ is David's webpage. Rumor has it he changed the menu a week ago. I would highly recommend his IPA although all of his beers are great. The Mohegan Sun Casino also brew's their own beer and has it on tap in several bars throughout the casino. Let's see there is a night club down in New Haven which Brews beer, although I have never tried any http://www.barnightclub.com/ . That's about it around here. -Gil Milone Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:27:16 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Tampa brewpubs > Hello, > We'll be heading down to Indian Rocks beach in the Tampa Fla. area on the > 19th of this month. We'll be meeting up with some relatives from England. > I'd like to show off some good American micro-brews to our English cousins > if there are any to be had in the Tampa area. Are there any brew pubs around > Tampa? Two major ones that I'm aware of: Tampa Bay Brewing Company in Ybor City (http://www.tampabaybrewingcompany.com/ - good cuisine, continental, cask beer) and Hoppers Brooker Creek (No webpage, location here -- http://www.beerexpedition.com/fl/b_02142.shtml -- pub cuisine, and they *have* won some golds for their brews). There's also a local chain called Hops (http://www.hopsonline.com/flash/open.asp), which is at several locations around the Tampa Bay Area area -- the beer is not as unique as the other two mentioned though. The best microbrew not associated with a brewpub, in this area, is Dunedin Brewery. Every Friday and Saturday evening they open up the bar portion of the brewery... they have several varieties of tasty brew, plus a couple of guests (the last time I was there, which was a while back unfortunately, they had Delirium Tremens as their guest brew) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:27:38 -0500 From: Ray Daniels <raydan at ameritech.net> Subject: Fermenting under pressure - The New Brewer I'm following-up on Dave Houseman's mention of the pressure fermentation article in The New Brewer. This piece, by Matthew Swihart of Full Sail Brewing Co, ran in the March-April 2002 (Vol. 19, No. 2) issue, beginning on page 50. If you want a copy for your files, contact Boulder via the toll-free number below and slap down the $$ to get one. In the meantime, here are my notes from the piece. The study covered 12 fermentations: 6 under pressure and 6 not. The pressure fermenters were pumped up to 15 psi after being filled with wort and maintained at that level throughout the fermentation. Each fermenter consisted of three kettles full of wort thus overcoming at least some concerns about inherent variability in the brewing process. The article makes no notes regarding possible changes in hop or malt lots during the course of these brews. Unfortunately pressure was not the only variable during fermentation. The pressure fermentations were conducted at three different temperatures: two ferments each at 68, 64 and 62 deg F. Two of the six pressure ferments were also purposely underpitched to see what effect that would have. By contrast, all of the regular ferments were conducted at 68 deg F with normal pitch levels. Finished beers were assessed by laboratory testing and taste panel evaluation. Triangular discrimination testing determined that on average tasters could not tell the difference between a pressure and regular ferment in a statistically significant number of cases. This despite the differences in fermentation temperature, pressure and in some cases quantity of pitched yeast. As Dave Houseman indicates, laboratory testing did show increases in BUs and diacetyl in the pressure fermentations, but these data bear further examination. In the BU results, the two underpitched beers showed an average increase of 3 BUs and the author states that the properly pitched pressure fermentations "did not show a consistent increase in bitterness"---although the range appears to have been from +2 to +7 BUs v. the control brews so the average increase would seem to be about the same as for the underpitched beers. Since most tasters cannot discriminate a bitterness difference of less than 5 BUs, this issue may be of little concern. In any case, the difference is easily explained by the loss of bitterness components with the krausen that is blown off by Full Sail's regular fermentation method (we show a nice photo of a blow-off barrel surrounded by foam on page 51). Similar results can be seen by homebrewers not practicing pressure fermentation if they switch from a blow-off fermentation (5 gal in a 5 gal fermenter) to a fully contained fermentation (5 gal in 7 gal fermenter). (I believe that Al Korzonas may have published some work on this a half-dozen or more years ago.) The diacetyl results showed that the underpitched beers gave a 23 ppb increase while the normally-pitched beers gave a 13 ppb increase. Here the effects of underpitching are evident. The 13 ppb increase in diacetyl in the other pressure ferments a) may be fully explained by the lower fermentation temps, b) could most likely be reduced by a slightly longer contact time with the yeast, and c) are probably not discernable by most tasters in any case. (50 ppb is the flavor threshold for diacetyl.) Given the variation inherent in ingredients, brewing process and routine fermentation temperatures for the average homebrewer, I think it is exceedingly unlikely that you would discern any consistent bias in your results under pressure fermentation versus non-pressure. A more important point for homebrewers is the potentially noticeable change in bitterness brought on when you blow-off krausen during fermentation versus containing it inside the fermenter. Ray Daniels Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer Director, Brewers Publications ray at aob.org 773-665-1300 Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual magazines. For more information, see www.beertown.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 05:32:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> Subject: Beer Builds Strong Bones I don't think I saw this posted but felt it would be of interest. Like we need another reason to drink beer: Study: Beer Builds Strong Bones Scientists have kept the secret to strong bones bottled up for years. Now, a new study has raised the bar on the list of nutrients that could have benefits. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wcvb/20020704/lo/1247127_1.html Rick Seibt Mentor, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:10:18 -0400 From: "Craig Williams" <dcwilli at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Tampa Fl Brews I recently moved from Tampa. If you want to try some great beer go to the Tampa Bay Brewing Co. It's a brewpub in Ybor City. Great food & Breat Beer. The owners also own a local Home Brew Supply store. Craig Williams Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:08:37 -0400 From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: Building a Copper Chiller HBDers: thought I'd post a short report on the Hull/Ottawa and Periphery Zymurgists (HOPZ) (at least that's what I call us - we're still working on a name) second event: a communal CFC building party. It was fabulous - despite the rain we had some good homebrew, and made some decent chillers, learning as we went. The chiller design was based on HOPZ member and beer gadget guru Patrick Brochu's Chilly Willy (see: http://pcbroch.homeip.net/chiller.html for details - very helpful if you're thinking of building something like this yourself). For a laugh, check out the photos of the event, hosted in Alan McKay's back yard: http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/Ottawa-Brewers, and click on the Chilly Willy link. Cheers! Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave Man, I guess I'm a coward. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:01 -0500 From: Joe Preiser <jpreiser at attbi.com> Subject: Re: Visiting Belgium Here are a few places I'd recommend when in Brussels. They are all within walking distance (sometimes it's a good walk) from the Grand Place. Beer Circus (89 Rue de l'Enseignement) Highly recommended bar Poechenellekelder Pub (5 Rue du Chene) Across from the Mannekin Pis statue Spinnekopke (1 Place du Jardin) Great food/beer La Becasse (near 11 Rue de Tabora) Timmerman's lambic in stone pitchers Mort Subite (7 Rue Montagnes aux Herbes Potageres) near the shopping plaza off the Grand Place serves Mort Subite lambics among others There's also the Cantillon museum/brewery if you want to check out a traditional lambic brewery. I don't know what you get to see on days other than their semi-annual open brewing day, but it's still worth the trip if you like the style. Joe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:31:56 -0800 From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com> Subject: Re: Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter clone recipe? Good timiong, Jeff. I was just at the Rogue Public House for lunch yesterday, and had a pint of Younger's (and Brutal Bitter, and Smoke, and..). The 35 IBU Younger's didn't seem hoppy at all, but hey, I'm a PNW kinda guy. I would guess that crystal 40 would get you into thew ballpark colorwise. The beer has a pretty good body, so don't go too short on the crystal. The nose didn't seem overwhelmingly hoppy, so keep late additions moderate. I would definitely say the Willamette for bittering and a bit of flavor and finish with the EKGs. See if you can get a fresh bottle of Shakespeare and culture up the Pacman from it. Hope this helps some. --------------->Denny Jeff Renner asked: A non-brewing friend who is interested in learning brewing likes Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter. I tried it again and agree - very nice beer. I'd like to clone it. Some web searching reveals consensus that Rogue stout and porter contain the Pacman strain, and the Rogue web site http://www.rogue.com/beers.htm gives these details: "YSB is amber in color with a mild hoppy finish. Brewed with a blend of 2-row Harrington and Crystal malts, Willamette and East Kent Golding hops. YSB is available in a 12-ounce 6-pack, and on draft. Measurements: 12 Degrees Plato, IBU 35, Apparent attenuation 75, Lovibond 17." Only in the Pacific NW would 35 IBU be called mildly hoppy! This is pretty useful info, but does anyone have any further ideas, like what color crystal malts and how much? How are the hops used? Elsewhere on the site they tell what their base malt is and suggest that they use Beeston crystal, and also seem to say that the hops are domestic, although for my money, the term EKG means from East Kent. Thanks. Jeff PS - some further info, first from the Rogue site: "Our original Rogue Ale, Younger's Special Bitter (affectionately nicknamed YSB) is a classic English Special Bitter named after Bill Younger of the infamous Horse Brass Pub in Portland, Oregon. The Malt Advocate described Younger's Special Bitter as "rich and flavorful. A triad of caramel maltiness, fruitiness (apricots?), and hop bitterness in aroma and flavor. A fuller malt foundation than some other pale ales, with some background spiciness. Dry, hoppy finish." In the SouthWest Brewing News, Feb/March 1994 issue, George Fix wrote "A strong case could be made for Rogue Ale being included among the top 5 ales brewed in the US." It was named not for the Scottish brewery Younger's but was "Named in tribute to Don Younger, whose Horse Brass Pub in Portland, OR, was the first retailer to carry Rogue Ales. " Found this review by noted English beer writer Roger Protz: "Amber colored with a dense collar of foam. Great wafts of spicy hops-good old Kent Goldings!-and nutty crystal malt on the aroma. Raisin fruit in the mouth is balanced by peppery hops. Big, complex aftertaste with sweet malt, sherry-like fruit and bitter hops, all funneling together into a gentle, dry, rolling finish." Found this in the 1996 archives of Celebrator Beer News: "It's a new name and look for Rogue Ales' flagship beer, Rogue Ale. The beer, a classic English-style special bitter, was originally designed by Rogue Brewmaster John Maier and the late Bill Younger. Bill was the brother of Don Younger, who has owned the Horse Brass Pub in Portland, OR since 1976. HB was the first retailer to carry Rogue Ales, and Bill Younger passed away the day the original Rogue Ale was to debut at the Horse Brass. It has remained the house beer ever since. The beer will be called Younger's Special Bitter." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:00 -0500 From: "Michael J. Roman" <resipsa at execpc.com> Subject: Dortmund Water, Decoction, & Mash pH? I plan on brewing an all-grain Dortmunder Export this weekend using a decoction mash, and will be matching my water to the high sufate and carbonate water of the Dortmund region. Given the highly modified Czech pils malts I will be using and the carbonate level in the water, I expect the mash pH will be way off from the optimal 5.0-5.5 pH during the mash. My question is how or if I should treat the mash to drop the pH. Do I add even more gypsum or CaCl to the mash, Do I add lactic acid to the mash and sparge? Or is this mismatch of high carbonate water and pale malts what defines the taste of a Dortmunder Export? If I do not adjust the pH of the mash, do I alter my mashing schedule in some way? So does anybody have any experience brewing authentic Dortmunder Export style beers? M. Roman Wausau, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:52:31 -0500 From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu> Subject: RE: Lou Bonham on the AHA Hi all, I just wanted to second the comments that Lou Bonham posted last week on the progress made by the AHA over the last five years. The positive attitude of the AOB people was very much in evidence during the preparations for this year's MCAB, here in Cleveland. The AOB arranged for MCABers to have the lower AOB rate at the lovely Renaissance Hotel, arranged for us to have rooms in the hotel for judging and hospitality, and provided refrigerated storage for the beers for the final round of the MCAB competition. All of this was done very graciously and professionally by the AOB staff, in support of a conference that had its start as a revolt against the AHA a few years back. In particular, we MCABers owe a debt to Nancy Johnson and Paul Gatza for their help with MCAB. Earlier in that week, the AHA/AOB folks helped a consortium of local homebrew clubs, notably the Akrons SAAZ and Cleveland SNOBs, put on a great evening of beer talks from Michael Jackson and Charlie Papazian at Great Lakes Brewing Company, attended by about 220 brewers and beer enthusiasts. This event could not have happened without help from a national organization like the AHA. In short, I strongly agree with Lou's statements about the "new AHA," and I encourage everyone to give the organization a second chance. Paul Shick Cleveland Hts, Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:36:21 -0400 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: Re: Making a weight percent solution - Plato Fred was trying to help Pete by writing: "These statements are incorrect." It was my understanding that Pete was planning on adding 13.6 g of sucrose to 100 mL of water, resulting in a 12P solution. It looks like the quote you cited was a typo on his part, but further on down Pete wrote: >So to repeat my process, corrected for errors and using ethanol, to make an >initial solution of OG=1.0483 (Plato=12), I will make a solution of 13.6 gm >of table sugar in 100 gm of DH2O. which _is_ correct. I think what he's trying to do is use an easily measure-able volume of water. Maybe his scale doesn't go high enough to weigh 100 g of water+sugar I'd also be concerned about water being associated with the sugar. Drying it at 110C prior to weighing it out might be a good idea. However, since it's easy for me to sit here on my butt and pretend to know what I'm talking about, I'll just shut up and give Pete the credit he deserves for coming up with such a good idea and following through with it. P.S. Can I borrow your solutions when you're done? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:39:01 -0500 From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu> Subject: Astringency problems with rice hulls? Hi all, I've been having some problems with my mash bed setting up in my last two brews, my first experiences with mash hopping. It seems that the mash hops are clogging up the filter bed to some extent. The flow is fast enough for running off into the kettle, but it's a bit too slow for me to run the burner and raise temperatures while recirculating. However, early tasting of the resulting bitters shows a lot of very smooth hop flavor, so I want to continue the process (at least until I run out of pellet hops.) My best fix, as far as I can see, is to use rice hulls in the mash to keep the flow going nicely. My initial guesstimate is about 1 lb of rice hulls mixed into about 20 lbs of grain, for a typical 10-11 gallon batch. I'm a little worried about increasing the amount of husk in the grist by this much, though. Have any of you tried-and-true rice hull users had any noticable increase in astringency when you started using them? Any problems with haze (from higher tannin or polyphenol levels) ? Do you take extra pains to keep the mash pH low, or the sparge water cool (< 170F)? Any feedback from experienced hullers (or shameless speculators) is appreciated. Paul Shick Cleveland Hts, Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:59:17 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: retrograded starch Alan is right, of course, regarding the fact that corn doesn't have to be pre-mashed. Rice, though, I thought had a gelatinization temperature higher than anything it would see in the mash. Damn memory... Corn will gelatinize between 65-70C, depending on what kind of corn you have. Most "regular" corn is between 65-68C. Why does this matter? Because the mash often sees 65-70C temperatures in everyday brewing. I have no doubt that you can be perfectly fine making CAPs this way. However... I like a very attenuated CAP. What I'm looking for is a reasonably dry, hoppy lager. I find that temperature rests below 65C suit that best. This isn't to say that the corn wouldn't gelatinize over time at 62C, but that it happens slower. I do think that there's a certain "something", likely carmelization, that comes out of the cereal mash. As for the little retrograded corn pieces...I was unclear. They happened after the mash had cooled down and I was scooping it out into the garbage. That meant that the corn had not all been digested (despite my normal mashing) and was still floating around. One reason I came up with was the possibility that I didn't gelatinize all of the starch granules due to my predominantly low temperature mash. My $0.02. For ease of use, corn flakes (yes...a box of corn flakes) or flaked corn work just fine. The corn flakes even add some minerals to the mix. Cheers! Marc - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:16:21 -0400 From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net> Subject: Re: retrograded starch Marc Sedam writes : > Alan is right, of course, regarding the fact that corn > doesn't have to be pre-mashed. Rice, though, I thought had > a gelatinization temperature higher than anything it would > see in the mash. Damn memory... I think we may have misunderstood each other to some extent. By "premash" I understood boiling the adjunct ahead of time with an amount of malt (usually about 10% by weight as I understand). I still give my adjunct a very good boil before mashing it, but without any malt in it. This gelatinizes the starches and away we go! > My $0.02. For ease of use, corn flakes (yes...a box of corn > flakes) or flaked corn work just fine. The corn flakes even > add some minerals to the mix. Yes-indeed! You can't beat the flakes for ease of use. And puffed rice or puffed corn ( I never was brave enough to try Sugar Corn Pops, but the stuff from the health food store which contains only corn is awesome ) work just as well. Loblaws here in Ontario has really cheap 500g bags of store-brand puffed rice that save a lot of time and don't cost much. cheers, -Alan - -- http://www.bodensatz.com/ The Beer Site (tm) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: batch sparging and stirring grain Charles Stewart Writes... "For my past few brews, I've tried batch sparging as a way to end up with two brews. It's worked great!" Charles, and anyobody out there wants to have a bit more fun with their beers, I do this as well and have really enjoyed the results. My method differs only in that I never fully drain the the mash/lauter tun, or stir the mash. All I do is keep tabs on the gravity of the runoff and the wort and kill it when I've got the right volume and gravity for beer #1. This is usually formulated to hit right about when the runoff drops to about 1.040 or so. Then I'll stop the sparge for a bit and let the grain mash a while longer before starting runoff of beer#2. This method has a number of benefits. First, since the sparge time is lowered for beer#1, there is less risk of temperature and pH fluctuation of the grain bed while sparging, which helps you get the beer you set off to make. Also, thanks to a suggestion from one of our peers that I put to the test in my brewery, I am now convinced that the malt character in brews that are derived from the "first runnings", so to speak, is noticeably fuller and cleaner than in beers that are allowed to runoff down to lower gravities. Of course, this type of "parti-gyle" brewing is easy if you have two kettles and two burners, but it is still possible with 1 kettle if you aren't married, working, or have any other social agendas. I'd also like to thank Jim Cave for highlighting the importance of maintaining a "density gradient". Starch conversion follows the logic of equilibrium; In order to promote the yield of products, one must continually remove them to keep the reaction moving in the right direction. In other words, the rate of starch conversion will slow as the sugar products build up in the mash. Ken Schwartz wrote" in regard to sparging "Intuitively it seems gentle stirring would be better than not but I don't have evidence to support or refute this." My experience is that all stirring a grain bed will get you is turbid,oxidized wort. In addition to the potential ill-effects of hot-side aeration, maintaining the integrity of your grainbed is essential to producing clear wort. Don't stir the mash, maintain a slow, steady flow rate, and don't agitate the grain bed during runoff any other way (like moving it). I've found that even throttling the flow rate a bit too much can affect turbidity. There's a good post in the archives that deals with wort turbidity...http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3236.html if anyone wants to know why this is worth looking into. Kevin Crouch Vancouver, WA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:50:35 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: Tampa Fla. brews Mark Kellums writes: "We'll be heading down to Indian Rocks beach in the Tampa Fla. area on the 19th of this month. We'll be meeting up with some relatives from England. I'd like to show off some good American micro-brews to our English cousins if there are any to be had in the Tampa area. Are there any brew pubs around Tampa?" Absolutely, you'll have several choices for good brew pubs. in the Ybor City area of Tampa Tampa Bay Brewing Co. 1812 N. 15th St., 813-247-1422 PALM HARBOR Brooker Creek Grille & Taproom 36221 E. Lake Road, 813-786-2966 Dunedin Brewery 937 Douglas Avenue, Dunedin, FL 34698 (727) 736-0606 a bit further south SARASOTA Sarasota Brewing Company 6607 Gateway Ave., 813-925-2337 All three have good beer, and all the brewmasters are very homebrewer friendly. I believe that Indian Rocks is on the coast just North of Tampa so Brooker Creek & Dunedin should both be pretty close. Ybor City is an old part of Tampa, gone touristy, TBBC has very good beer & food. Hope you have a great trip. Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
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