HOMEBREW Digest #4088 Fri 08 November 2002

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  Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider (Michael Grice)
  Beer in Anchorage (Scott & =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ch=E9rie?= Stihler)
  Looking for a Christmas Ale Recipe! ("Don Scholl")
  RE: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? ("Houseman, David L")
  Philler Plating ("Dan Listermann")
  re: Too much wort aeration and too much yeast not good? ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Latest dried yeast equivalency (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Lager yeast types (Paul Shick)
  Re: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: "Green" tasting beer (Jeff Renner)
  re: yeast types ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: RE: iodophor and plastic/rubber - What happens? (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  kraeusening (mwagner)
  Dupont and Rochfort yeast from YCKC (wesolomon)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:57:41 -0600 From: Michael Grice <grice at binc.net> Subject: Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider >I started a batch of cider yesterday with a blend of store bought >ciders. I used straight juice and looked for ones that didnt list anything >other than apple juice or citric acid(vitamin C) on the ingredient >list. I pitched a few packets of Coopers ale yeast. Today, there is >no activity. Zero. I suspect there may have been Potassium sorbate or >some other preservative that wasnt listed. Is that legal? Is there a >way around this ie pitching massive amounts of yeast, or is all lost? I'd add yeast nutrient and aerate some more. If that doesn't help, try adding a more aggressive yeast. I've read that Lalvin EC 1118 is good for stuck fermtations, and also that it makes good cider (see http://hbd.org/brewery/library/CidYeast091595.html for more details). - --Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:11:51 -0900 From: Scott & =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ch=E9rie?= Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com> Subject: Beer in Anchorage Kevin Bailey wrote: >Subject: Beer in Anchorage? >I'll be spending a couple of days in Anchorage >next week and was wondering if there are any >can't miss brewpubs to experience while I'm there. Another brewpub worth checking out while in Anchorage is the Glacier Brewhouse. They are kind of expensive but the food and beers are excellent. Even if you don't decide to eat there you could always pick up a growler to go. I believe the growlers go for about $8.00. Glacier Brewhouse has be webpage at: http://www.glacierbrewhouse.com As Steve Wright has written Mooses Tooth also is very good. They have excellent pizza and beer. Their webpage is at: http://www.moosestooth.net. I've been to the Snow Goose yet but I hear they are also excellent. I'm afraid they don't have a webpage. However, I have a little information about them on my webpage at the following URL: http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Breweries/Anchorage/Slee pingLady.html If you are in Anchorage on Friday you might want to check out the brewery tour at the Midnight Sun Brewing Company. Their tours are given on Fridays at 6:00 p.m. They also have a wepage at: http://www.wildales.com. Also nearby in Eagle River is the first brewpub in Alaska the Regal Eagle. I've never been there so I can't say a whole lot about it. In Wasilla which is ~20 miles north of Anchorage is the Great Bear Brewing Company. I'm afraid I also have not been there but I have heard good things about them. They have a webpage at: http://www.greatbearbrewing.com I hope this helps and have fun in Anchorage. Cheers, Scott Stihler Fairbanks, Alaska Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 06:51:14 -0500 From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com> Subject: Looking for a Christmas Ale Recipe! Hello, does anyone have a recipe for a good Norwegian Christmas/Holiday Ale. My wife would like me to brew something for the coming holidays! Thank you in advance for your help! Don Scholl Muskegon, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: RE: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? Carmen, You had hot wort with hot break material in it. It was clear otherwise. All is normal. When you cooled this wort, cold break material formed. These were proteins that were dissolved at the hot temperature but came out of suspension when cooled. Again, all is normal. Over time, this will settle out for the most part as you observed. Again, all is normal. Just ferment and enjoy. The final resulting beer may in fact be more clear since you seemed to have done a good job forming and removing hot break material and causing a good cold break. David Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:21:44 -0500 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Philler Plating Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu> mentions that his Philler lost its plating in bleach. This can happen and the instructions warn against it. The plating on the Philler is not chrome, but rather nickel. This is due to some assembly considerations. The plating on the Philtap, Phil's Gasser and the Counterphil is chrome. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Free shipping for orders greater than $35 and East of the Mighty Miss. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:14:01 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Too much wort aeration and too much yeast not good? Guy writes ... >I've read opinions here and other places indicating >that pitching a lot of yeast and aerating the wort as >much as possible are both ways to improve beer >quality, but [...] Not "as much as possible", but damage from overpitching and overaeration in HB is rare. Underpitching and underaeration damage is common. Underpitching and underaeration can also lead to stuck or slow fermentations, poor attenuation, and autolysis with attendant flavor problems. The advice that ""Ideal oxygen levels are between eight to ten parts per million" is just a generalization. Many, perhaps most yeast work well in this range, but others clearly *require* much more O2. Some flocculent ale/stout yeasts require up to 40ppm of O2 according to the UK NCYC database. If your yeast is leaving diacetyl behind, attenuating poorly and slowly - it may well need more O2 than a single air saturation will give. Pitching rate - I just read a study where a particular yeast was overpitched by a factor of 10 to reduce fermentation time and the resulting beer flavor was still within the commercial (British ale) flavor spec. Don't generalize - but overpitching generally causes little or no flavor problem. I think a more correct statement is that low/under pitching or aeration stresses yeast and creates "stress flavors" that are part of some beerprofiles.. Underpitching and less O2 can cause .... more esters, more aldehydes (e.g. acetaldehyde), more fusels, poorer attenuation, lower fermentation rate, higher VDK (e.g. diacetyl) levels if the fermentation is sluggish. I think extra esters are the only generally desirable effect and only in certain styles. Esters are well known to increase in concentration as yeast growth is limited - so underaeration and limited pitching are methods appropriate to some ales. You should also consider yeast selection and fermentation temperature as basic factors in ester control. I don't think I've ever preferred beer made from a slow dawdling fermentation to a fast snappy one. I don't think the stress methods of low pitching and low aeration ever produce flavors appropriate to a lager. Higher gravity (>14P) worts provide plenty of challenges to yeast growth without adding O2 & low pitching to the list. At a brewery that uses the same yeast regularly, monitors viability and pitching rate and oxygenation - I think that pitching rate control and O2 control can be effectively used to produce more esters. To an HBer who has no clue about the viable cell pitching rate, the vitality or the O2 level and limited experience w/ the yeast - it's dicey. I think temp control and yeast selection are more controllable factors for ester production in HB. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:02:16 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Latest dried yeast equivalency reuben.g.burgoyne at accenture.com suggests yeast equivalencies. A good resource is Scott Murman's yeast page http://smurman.best.vwh.net/zymurgy/yeast.html. While there are no equivalents for dry yeasts, by cross referencing the reputed origins of the yeasts, you can come up with probable equivalents. however, as noted on the White Labs page, even if yeasts come from the same original source, there may be differences. Back to the subject of Ringwood yeast. Wyeast calls their W-1187 Ringwood, but I wonder if it is just a coincidence that NCYC-1187 has the same number. There are often hints as to the origin in Wyeast's numbers. W-2308 is Weihenstephan 308, for instance. NCYC 1187 is a very different yeast from the one that our local Pugsley brewpub uses, which is definitely Ringwood. NCYC 1187 doesn't form a top crop whatsoever while the true Ringwood does. As a matter of fact, NCYC-1187 it is well suited to cylindro-conical fermenters because is flocculates to the bottom very well. It also doesn't need any oxygenation after it starts, and doesn't produce diacetyl. Does W1187 produce a top crop of yeast? I've never used it. If it does, then it isn't NCYC-1187. If it doesn't, then I don't think it is Ringwood. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:17:33 -0600 From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu> Subject: RE: Lager yeast types Hi all, Randy Ricchi asks about the source for the assertion that all lager yeasts can be split into two categories. I think the first place that idea showed up was in George and Laurie Fix's Analysis of Brewing Techniques (about 1994?) As I recall, his distinction was more along the lines of the dryness of the finish (and, consequently, whether the yeast emphasized the malt or hop profile.) Personally, I'm not all that convinced that this is a worthwhile label to add to yeasts these days, although it may tell us something about their ancestry. Recently, I've been playing around with several Pilsner yeasts, all of which should have had pretty much the same pedigree in the not-so- distant past. The differences in flavor in split batches are pretty impressive. I'll post some summaries when I have something worth saying. In the meantime, our club (the SNOBs- Society of Northeast Ohio Brewers) just did a group brew at Buckeye Brewing Co., splitting 3 barrels of Pils wort among 5 yeasts (not all of them Pils-type yeasts.) We'll force ourselves to sample them all at our club meeting in January or February. So much "research" to do... Paul Shick Cleveland Hts, Ohio, where cider season is in high gear! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:02:17 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? Carmen Salvatore <carmen.salvatore at lmco.com> is puzzled in Utica, NY by his clear hot wort becoming cloudy upon cooling. Carm, that isn't hot break redissolving but rather cold break, a different thing altogether. These could be (and have been) the topic of far deeper discussion, but that isn't what you asked for. Suffice it to say that it's normal, and what's more, good, to have cold break form. It indicates your mash chemistry is good. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:12:19 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: "Green" tasting beer Self professed "girl brewer" Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com> is worried in Alaska: >How much can I expect the beer to "mature" in the bottle? It tasted >somewhat watery, and there was a very "green plant" sort of flavor to >it... a lot like the hops pellets smelled, only a bit stronger. >(Underneath that was a faint, espresso-y/stout-y flavor, and it >smelled great, so there's a good beer in there waiting to get out... >I just know it!) Beers aren't bad until they are old and bad. Yours is probably not even bad. Charlie Papazian's mantra "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" (RDWHAHB) applies, but since it's your first batch, you'll have to relax with an Alaskan Smoked Porter or some other commercial microbrew, I guess. It is amazing how beers can change with a little age. While many beers taste great at the bottling (or kegging) stage (and this is always a good sign), many others do not and yet mature into fine beers. Some carbonation will probably improve the "watery" aspect, and the "green plant" flavor is likely hops flavor. In general, this is considered out of place in a stout (but not in, say, a pale ale), and time will likely diminish this. The high fermentation temperature is not desirable, but it was not drastically high. Problem's from high temperatures tend to be fruity esters and harsh "fusel oils," which are higher alcohols that also cause headaches. Introducing O2 into the beer is definitely to be avoided, but its effects may take some time to show up, and what you describe doesn't sound like oxidation. Both of these concerns come under the category, IMBR? (is my beer ruined?), which is a very common beginner's worry, and for which the remedy is RDWHAHB. But your concern is indication of a desire to control the variables which make good beer, and this is good. You are on your way to producing fine beer. Have fun brewing this weekend, and let us know how the stout is in, say, a month. Jeff PS - great sig quotes. Three great ones, two by Harry S. Truman. I have only one and have used it for years, but it has stood me well. - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:57:03 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: yeast types Randy Ricchi .... >There was an article a few years ago in one of those magazines which said >that all lager yeasts are divided into two categories. I'm going to guess >the names of these categories since I couldn't find the article in question >to verify. I believe the two types were Carlsberg and Tuborg. The old (pre-1970) classification was to divide lager yeasts into S.uvarum and S.carlbergensis. In 1970 this was recognized as incorrect and these were merged under S.uvarum which was positioned as S.cerevisiae var. uvarum in 1990. Later work in 1992 thru 1998 has reclassified S.cerevisiae var.carlbergensis as S.pastorianus !! Boulton & Quain in BY&F state, "There is now good evidence that in terms of DNA relatedness,bottom fermenting yeast [uvarum & carlbergensis] are more correctly classified S.pastorianus". There have been genetic studies that show lager yeast clearly divide into carlbergensis and uvarum types - while ale yeasts have more diverse origins. There was also a study that examined American lager yeasts and showed that all originated from Tuborg or Carlsberg breweries around 150 years ago. >Assuming that is correct, I think it was said that the Carlsberg types >threw sulfur during fermentation and the Tuborg types did not. >They listed a few of the yeast brands available to homebrewers which >were Carlsberg types, but I think they only listed one which was a >Tuborg type. I've never heard this about sulfur (I assume we're talking H2S and SO2) vs lager types. >What I would like to know is which Wyeast, Brewtek, or White Labs yeasts >are Tuborg type lager yeast. Same here ! Wy2042 "Danish lager" is a good bet for S.carlbergensis. I've read non-authoritative sources that Wy2007 and wy2278 are carlbergensis and 2278 can certainly produce sulfur aroma. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:10:25 -0500 From: "Jones, Steve (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com> Subject: RE: RE: iodophor and plastic/rubber - What happens? Adam, I think the link you are looking for is http://www.bayareamashers.org/iodophor.htm Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian Member: AHA, AHA Board of Advisors, and AHA Liaison Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:03:56 -0300 From: mwagner <mwagner at alean.com.ar> Subject: kraeusening Hi Folks!! Searching for light for my brain...... Here from Argentina I'm trying to figure the way to calculate in general the required amount of speise I need to carbonate a given Beer. My procedure: After boiling the Wort I stock let say 10% of wort for further use at the bottling time. On the other hand, I get the chilled remaining 90% (from here I know O.G.) and after pitching with my prefeared Yeast I'll get the F.G. after a couple of days. With O.G. and F.G. I can get an idea of the percentage of fermentable sugars from my wort. Let say I sarted with 14 Plato and finished with 4 Plato This makes an attenuation (related to the amount of fermentable sugars) of (14 - 4)/14 X 100 = 71.4 % This figure means I had 71.4 % of fermentable sugars, the same amount I have in the speise I Kept for primming. Also I can figure with the tables of gas dilution and temperature the amount of remaining volumes of CO2 disolved in my beer after fermentation. Let say at the temp of my Kegg I have 1 volume and I now want to go till 2.7 volumes adding the speise at bottling time (second fermentation at bottle level, perhaps also adding a fresh Yeast). And now the BIG question for me. How much of speise to use to add this 1.7 volumes to my beer? Papazian gives in his book an easy way to calculate this, but is looks too easy for me. Why? It uses OG as the main variable. But I can have 2 diferents worts with the same OG but diferent fermentability due to different composition of the wort, different proportions of glucose, maltose, maltotriose and dextrins. Also I know 3.7 grams of glucose produce 1 vol CO2, but How many grams of maltose produce 1 vol of CO2? And the same for maltotriose and other fermentables I get in the wort. Sorry for all this lines and the errors you can find in my english (spanish is my mother language). I know Eric Warner explains the Kraeusening method in his Book "German Style Wheat Beers", but I can't get it here and due to Argentine economical situation is hard now for me to buy it from Amazon.com. Any help will be welcomed, also in private is OK for me. Best Regards, Mauricio Wagner Buenos Aires - Argentina FAX: +5411-4958-0315 e-mail: mwagner at alean.com.ar Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:09:00 -0500 From: wesolomon at comcast.net Subject: Dupont and Rochfort yeast from YCKC Has anyone used YCKC A76 (Dupont) or A 25 (Rocheforte) yeast. What are the optimal temperatures for fermentation? I am planning on testing them in a single wort this weekend. OG 1.060 75% Pilsner 10% Malted Wheat 2.5% Acid Malt 2.5% Victory 2.5% Melanoidan (can't get aromatic) 2.5% Caravienne 5% Light candy sugar I have used ommegang yeast from the bottle and the wyeast 3944 (both need to be warm and take a while to ferment) so I expect these to be warm fermenters also. I would appreciate suggestions for a dupont style saison. Thanks. Bill in CT Return to table of contents
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