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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Re: Equipment does matter ("Dave") (Beer Drinker)
  Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler (Mark Kempisty)
  Boston Homebrew Competition reminder ("John B. Doherty")
  parti-gyle technique (Rama Roberts)
  Re: Beer competitions ("Asher Reed")
  Bigs Dogs and Pony Ass Brewing (Wil)
  Best of Philly 2003 ("Joe Uknalis")
  re: response to competiton ethics ("Chris M")
  Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler (Kent Fletcher)
  energy sources?? (aa8jzdial)
  Smoked wheat beers? ("kent tegels")
  Aroma hopping ("Rudolf Krondorfer")
  Competition Rules (Hayes Antony)
  Re: First few all grain batches (Thomas Rohner)
  Basic kegging questions (Brian Trotter)
  RE: BU:GU  " Designing Great Beers ("Dan Gross")
  "Stock" Comps... (Bev Blackwood II)
  Yeast Behavior (darrell.leavitt)
  Whining (Randy Ricchi)
  Wow! (Paul Kensler)
  Re: two things/or three (Jeff Renner)
  RE: First few all grain batches ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake (Jeff Renner)
  Michael Hartsock high FG, Shoes bitterness to gravity? WY3787 and ("Czerpak, Pete")
  1812 Era Ale Recipe (Bob Hall)
  MCAB-V ("Houseman, David L")
  Bottle carbonation monitoring trick (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  BU:GU (MOREY Dan)
  Re: equipment (Jeff Renner)
  evolutionary niches ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Skotrats Thought for the Day ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake (Gunnar Emilsson)
  Separate lauter tun vs. combi-tun (George de Piro)


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:42:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Beer Drinker <srm775 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Equipment does matter ("Dave")

Dave,

I don't believe that you neither disproved nor
disqualified Bill Wibbles comments, but rather
reinforced his assertions with your own flawed
arguments. For example: 

"Also, most properties of the better equipment that
brewers use don't have an effect on the quality of the
beer, but, rather, on the ease of making the beer."

That statement is almost entirely false. While yes,
better, bigger equipment does ease the brewing
process, it also produces better beer. If I were to
strain my wort through a colander (which is what I,
and most beginners, used to do), as opposed to a mash
tun with an EZ-masher or False Bottom, then obviously
the colander method wouldn't have as high extraction
rates, nor would it produce as clear of a wort as the
mash tun . In addition, you're also mixing in air and
other potential contaminates.

Also, let's take the chef example. I you give one chef
a creme brulee dish and all the modern convinences,
including a chef's torch, and the other chef a dirty
soup bowl, some matches and a can of hairspray, which
dessert are you going to eat, Creme brulee or Creme
bru-AquaNet? As we all know, cooking and brewing isn't
just about taste, but also about presentation. 

Finally, I think you're giving the yeast too much
credit. While I believe the yeast is the most
important ingrediant, it only eats what we provide it.
And, I believe that "90% of bad beers" are bad for
other reasons than the yeast. Afterall, if you "have
to turn over control to the yeast to do much of the
work," and it is only "biological organism to compound
all of the mistakes made during the brew session,"
then everyone would just be buying great yeast and
brewing with table sugar and there would be no
discussion of all-grain brews.

As far as the experience goes, I don't think that it's
unreasonable to want different tiers of experience for
competitions. Afterall, you don't see a 300 lbs boxer
fighting a feather weight. Why should you have a
brewer with 30 years of experience competing with a
brewer with 3 months of experience.

happy brewing



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:46:06 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler

Timothy asks about using PVC in his mash tun...

White PVC while suitable for drinking water has a maximum temperature
rating around 125 F.  I remember reading that some brewer took a small
PVC part and hot water from his cafeteria's coffee machine.  The part
softened very quickly and stunk!  You need to use CPVC which is a light
beige in color.  Its good to around 170 or 180 F.

If you go to http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mkempisty/ and the Cooler
Conversion link at the top, you will see the CPVC bulkhead fitting and
the copper manifold I made for a 5 gallon Gott.  For gluing the parts
together I used clear CPVC cleaner and solvents.  I didn't want to have
any of the dyes left around.  I have also changed the tubing coupler to
a hose barb.  The coupler was just not secure enough.

I just use a vinyl tube to go from the mash tun to the kettle.

Hope this helps!

- --
Take care,
Mark

P.S.  Normally the URL is www.kempisty.net but its not forwarding for
some reason I'll have to look into later.




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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:17:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boston Homebrew Competition reminder

Dear Fellow Beer Enthusiasts,

     Just a reminder to you all - The Boston Wort Processors 9th Annual Boston
Homebrew Competition is fast approaching!  BHC9 is one of the first MCAB VI
qualifying events of the year, and is also a 2002 New England Homebrewer of the
Year event!  Friday February 21st is the entry deadline - That's only ten days
for you to ship your entries to our ship-to site:

        Modern Homebrew Emporium
        c/o BHC9 Receiving
        2304 Mass. Ave
        Cambridge, MA 02140
        617-498-0400

If you are local to New England, we have ~18 additional entry drop-off sites in
five of the six New England states (sorry, Maine) and one in New York state
which are listed on our website at http://www.wort.org/bhc.html

The competition will be held on Saturday March 8th at the Watch City Brewing
Company in Waltham, MA, just west of Boston.  All BJCP Styles will be judged,
including Cider and Mead.  Best of Show and Brewmaster's Choice Awards will be
chosen from among the 24 beer category winners.  The lucky entrant who
wins the Brewmaster's Choice will get to assist in brewing a brewpub sized
batch of their beer at Watch City!!!

If you are interested in judging or stewarding at our event, please Email our
BHC9 Judge Coordinator, Francois Espourteille, at  francois53 at attbi.com

Please email me at dohertybrewing at yahoo.com with any questions you might have.
Spread the word and we look forward to judging your entries!!

Cheers and Happy Brewing!

John B. Doherty
Head Organizer for the 2003 Boston Homebrew Competition (BHC9)
dohertybrewing at yahoo.com
978-670-6987 (w)
508-923-6376 (h)
Surf to http://www.wort.org/bhc.html for all competition details!!



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: parti-gyle technique

gregman wrote:
OK On Saturday I did the whole parti-gyle thing an it went good real good, 
in fact I got the first beer at 4 gallons to be 1.084 and the second beer at 
8 gallons 1.027. with 14 lbs of grain!!!!!!!!

The technique is intriguing, but something about the whole "second runnings" 
thing scares me, and suggests the small beer it produces will be substandard.
I've only had one small beer, Anchor Steam's, which I think is the second 
runnings from their barleywine? It was horrible, IMO.

Anyone have something positive to say about parti-gyle? I'd be glad to be 
corrected...

- --rama



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:34:09 +0000
From: "Asher Reed" <clvwpn5 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Beer competitions

Ahh crap Bill -- first I find out dry yeast is a joke and now have to spend 
more on liquid yeast to make a decent beer -- now I find out I have to spend 
another $4000 on equipment to make a drinkable beer.  This hobby is getting 
mighty expensive -- I might have to give it up and make baking cookies my 
hobby -- but wait... I bet I'll need to spend $10000 on a professional grade 
oven... Crap, you just can win.



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:36:08 GMT
From: Wil at thebeermanstore.com
Subject: Bigs Dogs and Pony Ass Brewing

>buy your $4,000 systems... but I feel that you are
>either lazy or compenstating like the guy with a new
>vette.
>
>mike
Now wait a min...
Who ran into the $4,000 brewing system, breaking the pump, with the
vette in the garage and then blamed it on the man of the house ;-)

Here's my system, can I come out and play at the comps, I swear I will
not use dry yeast!!!...
http://catalog.com/happydog/ponyass.html

Bill, I hate to say this BUT, after watching Michelle Jackson once
again open his mouth and get into MORE hot water, I wondered out load,
Why on Gods green earth doesn't SOMEBODY tell him to keep his mouth
shut?
Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084

www.thebeermanstore.com
Wil at thebeermanstore.com

God bless America!


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:34:27 -0500
From: "Joe Uknalis" <birman at netaxs.com>
Subject: Best of Philly 2003

The Homebrewers of Philadelphia and Suburbs announce their 20th annual
competition- Best of Philadelphia & Suburbs 2003  (HOPS-BOPS).  Competition
will be held at the Nodding Head Brewery & Restaurant
http://www.noddinghead.com/ on April 19.  Entries due by April 12.  The fee
is $6 for the first entry and $5 for each additional entry accompanying the
first. HOPS members get $1 off ($5 first entry, $4 each additional entry).
Checks must be made payable to HOPS.

Mail in location!
Home Sweet Homebrew
2008 Sansom Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103
Phone: (215) 569-9469
Contact: George or Nancy
Mail in location!

Stay tuned to our website for details!

http://www.hopsclub.org/



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:09:02 +1100
From: "Chris M" <chrismac_aus at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: response to competiton ethics

This is in response to a post that Steve Alexander put on HBD 4168 that 
started with -

" I was asked to forward/post this message to HBD.   I think it's self 
explanatory. " etc etc

This is a great reposnse from a HBer, maybe a few ppl should reflect on 
this. If you dont get the basics right then it doesnt matter you you are 
doing, golf, nails or brewing.

The quality of posts from certain members is absolute garbage and i have 
never seen so much garbage posted to this site in the last 15 months, it 
turning me of subscribing, everyone seems to be missing the point and it is 
sad.

If my local LHBS sprouted this sort of muck they would have been out of 
business long ago, the ppl posting rubish are giving HBD.ORG a bad name/rep 
and i'm about ready to turn off HBD.ORG with all whinging whining nerdy 
postings to the site.

This place has gone down hill big time.

Chris.




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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:30:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler

Timothy asked about:

"Ok, now after this discussion of $4k systems - I have
a $10 system 
question - 
I'm about to take the dive into all grain. I have
built a manifold out 
of PVC 
for my rectangular Rubbermaid cooler, using 1/2"
tubing throughout(snip)"

Tim, I really don't think you should use PVC for a
wort collection manifold.  PVC at mash temps will
likely collapse (sooner or later), as the maximum
rated temperature is 140 deg F.  Even if it doesn't
collapse, it will likely off-gas into your wort, which
ain't gonna do much for flavor.  do yourself a favor
and use 1/2" copper pipe.  Less than $10 worth will
make a manifold you can use forever.

"After taking out the existing drain plug, the hole
through the cooler 
is just 
large enough (with about 1/32 of an inch leeway) for
the tubing. What 
can I use 
to seal the hole?"

You can either come up with a bulkhead fitting, which
will use threaded parts to compress a washer or O-ring
to seal, or seal it up with food grade silicone and
let it cure for several days.

"I was thinking of using a number of rubber gaskets 
between 
the final T fitting and the hole, but that might not
be tight enough."

Absend a mechanical means such as a bulkhead fitting,
it *won't* be tight enough.

"I worry 
about using plumbers putty where it will contact the
extract."

Plumber's putty is used to keep water and dirt out of
small spaces, such as where a faucet meets a sink, for
cleanliness.  It is *not* used to make weatertight
connections, that is the job of seals, O-rings,
packing and washers, always in conjunction with a
mechanical connection.

"Another question is what to use to seal the joints
outside the cooler"

Again, ditch the PVC

"Lastly, I have a PVC ball valve (again, it says
suitable for potable 
water) 
with 1/2" threading - anyone have any suggestions on
the best way to go 
from 
there to my boiling pot? I was thinking of getting a
1/2" to 3/4" 
threaded 
fitting and adding a plastic spigot (bottling bucket
type) (snip)"

Use copper pipe, connect it (through a bulkhead
fitting or sealed with silicone) to a ball valve
outside of the tun.  Use a pipe to tubing adapter to
connect soft tubing to the ball valve and dircet the
wort into your kettle.

Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:37:07 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: energy sources??




I realize the convenience of lp for getting a big rolling boil quickly.
The drawbacks are (for me) the 16 mile round trip to refill and also the 
occasional, "whoops, I got half way thru the boil and now we out o' gas". What 
about plumbing my big cooker into my 500 pound house lp system? There is an 
external regulator on the tank and the house line pressure I believe is in the 
3-4 inches of water area. Cheaper? Dangerous? Pressure regualtors needed, etc?

 I have thought about adding a shroud around my kettle to force more heat 
around the 15 gallon kettle edge rather then having it fly away into the garage 
air. The inefficiency though is keeping the garage warm in winter.
 
How about using lp to get the big kettle boiling quickly and switching over to 
a heating element after it is rolling? I have a single 4500 watt suspended by a 
white pvc tube assembly for my hlt. Will the 4500 watter keep it rolling and 
will the white pvc take the 212 degree water ok??

One more. How does our funky homebrew system compare in btu, furlongs per 
fortnight, megapizels per khz, for each gallon of beer, to the big boys energy 
useage??

73's
rick dial
aa8jz 
on the frozen shores of Lake Michigan


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:28:36 -0600
From: "kent tegels" <ktegels at msn.com>
Subject:  Smoked wheat beers?

I'm still hunting for something to do with the American Wheat Yeast that
I have around. In searching around, I ran over a discussion of Gratzer
Bier. This was described as a pale, heavily-hopped smoked wheat beer of
7-8 degrees Plato. It sounds interesting. Does anybody have any insight
on this or better yet, a recipe for a smoked wheat?

Thanks!
Kent
[633.3, 267.8] Apparent Rennerian

"I think it's over there behind that Roddenberry Bush"
 - Ficus


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:00:10 +0100
From: "Rudolf Krondorfer" <rudolf.krondorfer at sensonor.no>
Subject: Aroma hopping

Hi everybody!

I have a question about aroma hopping. By going from an immersion
chiller to a counter-flow chiller i cut down brewing time by at least an
hour. This was very nice, but other problems seem to have emerged. I
previously used to get a nice strong aroma in my brews, but not anymore
after turning to the counterflow chiller.

Has anyone else noticed this problem? What can be done to solve it? I
miss the aroma but I don't want to move back to the immersion
chiller........

Any suggestions will be appreciated. 

Cheers,
Rudolf Krondorfer
Norway

rudolf.krondorfer at sensonor.no
 


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:04:21 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Competition Rules

While we are on the topic, I picked up a trend in our local competitions.
The guys who were doing well tended to be those who bought a slurry from a
local micro and pitched that, rather than those who grew yeast up
themselves.

Our club committee discussed the issue and we now have a rule that states
that your yeast must be at least one fermentation removed from a
professional set up. The thinking is that yeast management is the trickiest
part of brewing, and pitching a very large healthy slurry that you picked up
at the brewery that day is too large a short cut.

Is this sort of rule applied elsewhere?
After the discussion around here, I am feeling a little bit like a whiner
for having introduced it.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg


Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:40:40 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: First few all grain batches

Hi Mike
How was your hot and cold break? With the hydrometer you measure
the dissolved solids, not just sugars.
How do you aerate your wort? Is your ferment at the right temp?
Is your Brown still bubbling? If not, prime and bottle it.

Cheers Thomas


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:24:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Trotter <sandinmysuds at yahoo.com>
Subject: Basic kegging questions

I'm sure this has been covered before in this forum,
but a search of the archives for "kegging" and
"carbonation" yields a gazillion hits.  I consider
myself a beginner, with eight batches behind me, to
give you an idea of my experience.  I'm starting to
collect the equipment for kegging and have read every
article I can find on the topic and think I'm good to
go with a few questions which should be simple for the
all-grain pro's here:

1.  Carbonation.  Some articles recommend force
carbonation and others recommend priming with sugar as
in bottling first.  Is there an advantage to one or
the other?  Also, I've seen the chart in books and on
the web where the entering arguments are "desired
carbonation" and "beer volume", yielding the pressure
to set the regulator to.  I've always just primed with
corn sugar (bottling) and everything came out great. 
Where does the "desired carbonation" level come from
and how do I adjust this if I prime the beer prior to
attaching the tank?

2.  Keg volume.  I'm really enjoying this new hobby
and I'm brewing beer faster than I drink it, thus I
give away a lot of my beer.  I would like to bottle
about 1/3 of the batch for my buds and keg the rest. 
Is there any problem with kegging say, 3 gallons in
the corny keg or is the forced carb setup designed for
the keg to be full in the beginning?

Thanks in advance and any off-post replies are welcome
as well...

Aloha,
Brian



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:01:06 -0500
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: RE: BU:GU  " Designing Great Beers

Shoes asks about the BU:GU ratio concept.

My understanding of this is that it is a simple way to classify beers
according to their hop bitterness versus original gravity.  As Ray Daniel's
book describes, one can divide the IBU number for a beer by the last whole
numbers of the original gravity to get this ratio.  For instance if my ESB
has a calculated bitterness of 40 IBU and an OG of 1.050 I would calculate
the BU:GU ration by dividing 40 by 50.  This gives me a BU:GU ratio of .80.
Checking this number gives me a snapshot comparison of different beers and
beer styles.  If I was going to brew an IPA I would expect to see a BU:GU
ratio of at least 1 or higher since that style should be plenty hoppy.
Anything below that would indicate that I was way off the mark.
It's fun to do this calculation with commercial beers when the BU and GU
numbers are available.
I agree with you that "Designing Great Beers" is an outstanding book, I find
myself going back to it time and again before I brew.

Dan Gross
Olney, MD



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:43:46 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: "Stock" Comps...

> Fine go ahead. Start your own homebrew comp. Only allow rookie extract
> homebrewers and yourself to enter.
> &
> Maybe there should be some Stock Brewing Competitions.

We had a homebrew shop here in Houston that did exactly that.  It was 
an extract competition, it lasted exactly 2 years.  I think the 
category of "first time entrant" (which we added to the Dixie Cup after 
seeing it at the AHA's) gives the new brewer a chance to get good 
feedback against brewers of like skill.

However, as an FYI...  The Foam Rangers took 4 medals at the recent 
MCAB. (1 Gold, 2 Silvers and a Bronze, I think)  The MCAB is modeled 
after the Masters, where you have to have already won to even get in to 
the competition.  To the best of my knowledge, all 4 winning Ranger 
entries were brewed on "regular" brewing equipment. (No RIMS, HERMS, 
etc.)  The real kicker?  The MCAB Gold medal in English Pale Ale?  A 
partial mash extract beer from a brewer that really doesn't enter 
competitions much because he's "too inexperienced."

Anybody can win.  The English Pale Ale that went to MCAB didn't win at 
some dinky competition, but the largest single site event last year, 
the Dixie Cup, with 967 entries, the majority of which come from the so 
called "pros" with systems that keep getting slammed.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
Brewsletter Editor
The Foam Rangers
http://www.foamrangers.com



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:37:10 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Yeast Behavior

Have any of you guys used the WLP006 Bedford British Ale yeast?  I ask in 
that it seems to behave rather differently than many others that I've used.

On the 10th I brewed a batch (7lb Maris otter, 1 lb aromatic, 3 lb maize) 
and pitched a vial directly (w/o a starter).  The lag time was significant 
( about 24 hrs)... then what initially appeared at the top of the wort 
appeared to  look like cornmeal...in clumps...
and the fermentation was for the first day VERY slow,...
then the next morning (keeping the temp at around 70F) it finally had 
regular / steady bubbles,...and the cornmeal clumps are now continuous 
across the top, but just under is a beautiful white layer, nearly 1/4" 
thick, of very small, and white bubbles...

The smell coming out of the fermenter is lovely,...and I am no longer 
concerned with this aberrant behavior (is there a model of normality for 
yeast? or, are they like us?)

Anyway, I have never seen such a head of thick yellowish stuff, under 
which is the small white layer...  (the white layer, by the way, reminds 
me of the fine white head that my lagers often exhibit,..but without the 
cinnamon-looking stuff )

For what it is worth...

I know that the gravity was higher than it should have been with just the 
one vial,..my efficiency was way up (78% as opposed to my usual 70-71%)so 
the target of 1.053 was exceeded by 6 points...

The yeast was fresh (dated best before 2/03), and placed on the kitchen/ 
brewery counter the night before use..

If it had gone 1 more day w/o activity then I would have pitched a re-
hydrated Safale, which I had at the ready...

Anyone use this yeast before?  I plan on re-using with a higher gravity 
porter/ brown ale...

Lastly, if anyone wants to experiment with an out of category brown ale  
that I recently made (MLK Brown Ale), let me know and I'll send the 
recipe....it is VERY good...to me..(Saison yeast...yum!...)

I have been experimenting with maize, and I find it a-maize-ing...ie the 
flavors that it contributes to several differnet styles..


Happy Brewing! ...with in-expensive as well as expensive 
equipment...experimentation and innovation is, to me, the key to our 
collective health, ...and sanity.

 ..Darrell

 [544.9 miles, 68.9~]Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:21:00 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Whining

Wednesday. 46 Kb HBD, and about 90% of it was on the same, tired
useless, thread.



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 05:21:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wow!

The past couple of weeks MUST be a new record low
signal:noise ratio on the HBD.  Impressive.

Clinitest, Botulism - move aside, we've got a new
winner!!



Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:58:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: two things/or three

  "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote some 
really good stuff about yeast relationships.  Thanks, Steve.  This 
won't help us make better beer, but just as some brewers are also 
equipment geeks, I am a history geek.  It makes brewing beer more fun.

>the hybridization [producing lager yeast]
>must have been a quite recent event."

Wheat is considered a hybrid that was shaped (though not consciously 
directed) by humans, and only a few thousand years ago.  Lagers are 
thought to have arisen in Bavaria in the late middle ages by my 
reading.  Does your reading suggest that lager yeast hybridization is 
as recent as this?  I would guess perhaps so, since there wasn't any 
other place for it to arise before this.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:20:00 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: First few all grain batches

Mike asks about his high final gravity of 1.020.  First of all that isn't
necessarily too high, especially in the case of a Wee Heavy.  Yes, perhaps
the Brown ale could be drier, but then what Brown ale was it?  Things to
look at/consider:  (1) Recipe.  What was the grain bill?  Lot's of crystal
or dextrin malt?  (2) Mash temp.  Well, you seem to be ok at 150 for a lower
amount of dextrins but then this was with the Wee Heavy so the higher OG may
still yield 1.022.  But this brings us to (3) Thermometer calibration.  Make
sure it's measuring correctly.  Perhaps you weren't at the mash temperatures
you thought you were. (4) Water chemistry certainly affects enzyme activity;
check this out. (5) Yeast attenuation ability.  Some yeasts just don't
attenuate as much as others.  Look at the specs for your yeast.  With 75%
attenuation, other factors being controlled, would indicate lower FGs.  (5)
Calibrate the hydrometer; how sure are you of the readings --- have you done
a calibration of your hydrometer?   

Just some things to look into.  With only two batches of all grain, it
sounds like Mikes's doing well so far.  I found it takes a while to learn
your system so you can then create your own recipes (or modify others) to
get the results you want.

Dave Houseman



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:17:44 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake

  William Menzl <menzl at concentric.net> writes from Midland, Michigan:

>I have a CAP currently going and was wondering about doing the
>diacetyl rest and repitching a fresh batch on the yeast cake.
>I have seen many different opinions about when to do the diacetyl
>rest, either leave it on the cake and take it up to 60 deg F, or
>transfer to a secondary and then rest at 60 deg F.  Anyone have
>a specific recommendation?  I usually transfer, then rest, but
>I have been wondering if that is the best.  Does any
>recommendation change if I want to pitch another CAP on the
>yeast cake?  I am using White Labs Czech Budejovice yeast and
>would like to experience what fermentation would be like for a
>lager yeast when I have a large cake (I suspect I under pitched
>this last batch.)

You want to have plenty of active yeast present to consume the 
diacetyl.  To me that means before you rack, and while you still have 
some fermentation going on.  Some yeasts don't need this rest at all, 
though I suspect this one would benefit by it.

You might not want to pitch all of the yeast in your next batch. 
Generally an ounce (25-30 ml) of thick, pasty yeast sedimented solids 
per gallon is considered right for a lager.

Jeff


- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:28:52 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: Michael Hartsock high FG, Shoes bitterness to gravity? WY3787 and

Michael Hartsock asks about his high FG batches.

I had this problem for a long time.  Batches would never get below 1.016 to
1.020.  High OG batches had trouble getting below 1.030.  Eventually, I
checked the calibration on my thermometer and found that it was registering
about 8degF too low.  Meaning my "150F" mashes were really closer to 158F.
Once I got a new thermometer, the problem went away and my normal ales reach
1.010 to 1.012 and my high OG beers are close to 1.020.  I had virtually
eliminated other variables since I was pitching on prior yeast cakes and
knew that I had enough yeast.

Check your thermometer.  Then check your yeast amount by repitching rather
than using a starter.  Then check your aeration.

"Shoes" asks about the BU:GU ratio in Daniels book.  This is a pretty good
thing I occasionally consider when evaluating overall impression of brewed
beers.  The way it works......  imagine a pale ale with 1.050 OG with about
35 IBUs.  This would amount to 50 gravity units and 35 IBUs or a BU:GU ratio
of 35:50 or 0.7:1.  Now imagine Old Crustacean barleywine from Rogue with an
OG of about 1.100 and 125 IBU and a BU:GU of 125:100 or 1.25:1.  Now imagine
a hefe with 1.045 OG and 12 IBU or a BU:GU of 12:45  or 0.26:1.  This is how
its calculated for brews.  How you interpret it is partially taste bud
dependent but I think the guidelines presented by Daniels are close to my
impressions as well althoguh I tend to hop heavily.

Anybody have experience with Wyeast 3787 producing initial (both end of
primary and end of secondary fermentation) tastes and smells of cloves which
then dissapate with later aging even when fermented at about 70 to 72F?  I
was surprized to find these initially, but glad when they started to age
out.  FWIW, this concerns my first attempt at a dubbel.

About the competition thing......  I enter solely for stylistic feedback
(which I generally get good impressions of although some styles are more
poorly judged than others IMHO).  I do not brew on a $4K system - I still
brew in the kitchen using a 5 gallon pot, 10 gallon Gott, immersion chiller,
and finally have changed to pure O2 aeration.  I even win a few ribbons when
I purposely brew to style rather than brewing to what I like to taste which
can be "extreme beers".  I do like to see how I place compared to certain
people that I know that brew consistently well and stylisticly so.  MOst of
them do not have $4K systems and actually have similar systems to what I
use.  If people are "good brewers", the biggest thing to do well in
competition is to do your darndest to brew to style and then make your batch
slightly more exciting to distinguish it from "just another highly hopped
IPA" or "just another roasty irish stout".

Thanks,
pete czerpak
albany, NY 


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:32:33 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: 1812 Era Ale Recipe

Wow, the current raving about equipment and competitions has me longing for 
the good old days of aluminum vs. stainless and hot-side aeration! At least 
it doesn't take long to read the list in the morning.

I've been looking for a recipe that would simulate a typical American ale 
brewed around the time of the War of 1812. A recipe from any geographical 
location in the US would be fine .... something that was possibly brewed on 
the frontier of the Northwest Territory would be excellent. I've found bits 
and pieces of ingredients, but still haven't come up with the complete 
package and need help from the historians of the group.

Thought it might be fun to serve a little authentic ale at a reenactment 
later this summer. Many thanks in advance.

Bob Hall
Napoleon, OH



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:35:25 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: MCAB-V

Perhaps I missed the post somewhere, but for those that haven't already seen
the winners list from the MCAB-V, check it out at
http://burp.org/mcab5/winner03.asp.  I want to also thank Bill, Tom, Andy,
Steve, Phil and all the members of BURP who put on a great event.  I was
lucky enough to be able to attend and privileged enough to judge the BOS
round with a great team of experienced judges.  All of these were quite good
and the getting down to the last five, which were all excellent, was
difficult.  But John's Isebock was truly amazing.  It was as if you put your
head in a sack of Munich malt.  Quite difficult to get that level of
balanced flavor and aroma with so many melanodins without oxidation.  And
don't think that this was just another "big beers win" situation; it really
was just the best beer on that day in that competition.  Hats off to John,
the BURP club and all those who made it to Washington in the snow.  This is
what brewing is all about.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:39:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Bottle carbonation monitoring trick

Brewers

A common complaint read here, especially from beginners, is that it 
is hard to know when bottled beer is properly carbonated.  You hate 
to open a bottle only to find it is still flat.  Eric Warner shows a 
gas gauge (manometer) clamped to the top of a wheat beer bottle in a 
German brewery in his German Wheat Beer book, but few of us have such 
a device.

I hardly ever bottle, but a few weeks ago I was using a Carbonator 
Cap to carbonate some beer from a keg in a one liter PET bottle to 
take to a party.  As the bottle got hard from the CO2, I thought, 
Duh!  Why not just fill a small PET cola bottle at the time of 
bottling?  Then you could monitor how hard the bottle gets as CO2 is 
produced.

I wish I had remembered to do this when I bottled last week.  :-(

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:04:53 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Re:  BU:GU

Shoe asks:

Can someone please tell me how to utilize Ray Daniel's BU: GU ratio in
"Designing Great Beers." 

Shoe, I agree it is a great book!  Using the ratio is simple.  First convert
the original gravity to gravity units (GU).

GU = 1000 * (1 - O.K..)

example

50 = 1000 * (1 - 1.050)

Next multiply the BU:GU ratio time the GU value to get target bitterness in
IBUs:

BU = GU * (BU:GU)

continuing the example, if BU:GU = 0.70 then:

35 = 50 * 0.70

Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:24:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: equipment

  Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch> writes from Switzerland:

>I once tried a beer brewed on a wood fired copper washing tub.
>These two guys make exceptional beers with their very primitive
>setup.(try to keep a mash rest temp. with a wooden fire is a
>challenge, i've seen it)

Mike O'Brien (of pico-Brewing Systems) dresses up in 1776 Colonial 
garb and brews at festivals with a primitive system.  He did this at 
the NHC 2000 in Livonia (Detroit), Michigan.  There were photos of 
this on the web somewhere - can anyone come up with a link?

He mashes in a half wooden whiskey barrel with a hole in the center 
of the bottom and a long wooden stick (probably a tool handle) as a 
plug.  It's tapered on the end.  He lays spruce boughs across the 
bottom as a false bottom (straw can be used, too).  He heats the 
water in a black iron "witch's" cauldron over an open wood fire, in 
which he also boils the wort.

When the mash is over, he lifts up the plug and drains into a bucket, 
then recirculates until he gets clear wort.  He can adjust the flow 
by cocking the plug sideways.  Then he fills the bucket and pours it 
into the cauldron to boil.  He hops as usual.

He does make a concession to modernity by using culture ale yeast, 
and he ferments in carboys and kegs in Cornies.

The ale he makes from this is as good as any.  The spruce flavor is 
quite subtle, especially after a few weeks (or a few beers).  You 
can't really tell just what it is, it's just an added complexity.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:16:46 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: evolutionary niches

The recent bit about yeast and fruit and developement
of enzymatic systems made me start thinking.
(look out, a little thinking can be a dangerous thing)
With a bit of searching I found out a bit about fruit and 
the source of the simple fruit sugars, glucose and fructose.
>From ctstateu.edu I got:
>>The way fruits ripen is that there is commonly a ripening signal...
>a burst of ethylene production. Ethylene is a simple hydrocarbon
>gas (H2C=CH2) that ripening fruits make and shed into the atmosphere.
>Sometimes a wound will cause rapid ethylene production...thus picking
>a fruit will sometimes signal it to ripen...as will an infection of
bacteria
>or fungi on the fruit. This ethylene signal causes developmental
>changes that result in fruit ripening.

>New enzymes are made because of the ethylene signal.
>These include hydrolases to help break down chemicals inside the
> fruits,amylases to accelerate hydrolysis of starch into sugar,
> pectinases to catalyze degradation of pectin (the glue between cells),
>and so on. Ethylene apparently "turns on" the genes that are then 
>transcribed and translated to make these enzymes. The enzymes then
>catalyze reactions to alter the characteristics of the fruit.

>The action of the enzymes cause the ripening responses...
>The degradation of starch by amylase produces sugar.

Steve's comment "but the only
source of maltose and maltotriose I'm aware of are from starch
degradation " is satisfied.

The scenerio of wind-fall unripe fruit leaving open a niche for yeast to
develop complex enzyme systems that can ferment a large number
of higher carbohydrates is almost a certainty. I bet Saacharomyces
diastaticus would be one good example.
  I have even heard that Lambic brewers add unmalted wheat as a
source of carbohydrates for the wild yeast fermentation. If I look at
the history of brewing I get the impression that originally all beers
came from wild yeast fermentations and these assorted yeast could
ferment all the carbohydrates available. I suspect it was the hand of
man that selected "brewing strains" that did not ferment so fully.

NL


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:35:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Skotrats Thought for the Day

If those who have taken the time to buy or make shiny stainless almost pro
quality Home Brewing Equipment should not be able to enter Home Brewing
Competitions...

Then surely Overly Opinionated Home Brew Store owners should not be able to
enter into Home Brewing discussions or forums...

I mean all the Opinionated Home Brew Store Owners want to do is sell and make
money of us Home Brewers right?

Seems to be another conflict of interest... 

I am of course using said Home Brewer Store Owner logic on this one but what is
good for the goose is good for the gander right?

After all... 

We are just Home Brewers seeking better beer, better recognition and of course
SHINY THINGS!

Just my thoughts... 

C'ya!

 -Scott



=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:59:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Gunnar Emilsson <cdmfed_emilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake

In HBD #4169, William Menzl asks about performing a
diacetyl rest and repitching on the yeast cake from a
CAP fermented with WLP 802 Czech Budojovice lager
yeast.  I just finished brewing 5 consecutive lagers
using this yeast, beginning in early December and
diacetyl in any of the batches, so I would not think a
diacetyl rest is necessary.  If in doubt, take a
sample and taste it!

Regarding William's desire to experience fermentation
using a lager yeast cake with this particular yeast, I
can report the following.  The first brew I made was a
Vienna Lager, S.G. 1.045, using all Vienna malt.  I
pitched a half gallon starter of WLP 802.  I observed
a dense, 1-inch firm foam in my 6.5 gallon glass
carboy fermentor.  Looked like the krasuen in the
giant oak open fermentors at Plzensky Prazdroj in
Pilsen!  After two weeks, I transferred to a
secondary, and pitched a S.G. 1.055 CAP in the
primary.  The krausen from this 5-gallon batch rose
about halfway to the 6.5 gallon carboy opening.  The
third batch pitched in this fermentor, a 1.052
Bohemian pilsner, required a blowoff tube, and I lost
about a pint.  The fourth batch, a 1.060 Czech dunkel
aka U Fleku, blew out a half-gallon of foam.  For my
final batch, I split the yeast cake and used half of
it in a 6.5 gallon plastic bucket fermentor containing
a 1.096 Baltic Porter, and the remainder to finish off
a knockoff of Steve Jone's Old Hunter's Ale, which had
been in the tertiary for several months after a
primary fermentation using Wyeast 1084.  The old ale
has had visible renewed activity for the past few
weeks now, even in my 50 degree F. basement.  The
Baltic porter krasuen spewed to the lid of the 6.5
gallon bucket.I'd also like to note that while I
aerated the first batch, I did nothing more than allow
the chilled wort (50-60 deg. F.) to "freefall" from
the bottling bucket spigot into the glass carboy or
primary plastic fermentor.  In my experience, large
quantities of yeast are more important than aeration
to ensure against a stuck fermentation.  

Gunnar Emilsson
Helena, Montana



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:44:44 -0500
From: George de Piro <george at EvansAle.com>
Subject: Separate lauter tun vs. combi-tun

Hi all,

Kevin asks why I stated that a separate lauter tun is more desirable than a
combi-tun (combination mash/lauter tun).

The main reason is wort quality:  you can get much clearer wort if you are
using separate vessels.  When you mash in the lauter tun (like most brewpub
brewers and some homebrewers), you can end up with a lot of husk material
under the screens because of the agitation during mash mixing.  This stuff
will cloud the wort as the runoff proceeds, even if you have recirculated
until good clarity prior to the runoff.

This occurs because the husk material is not glued to the bottom of the
lauter tun, and turbulence kicks it up.  Turbulence is caused by temperature
differences, flow rate differences, and density differences that occur as
the runoff procedes.

Separate mash and lauter tuns are a must for breweries trying to maximize
production.  The mash is moved to the lauter tun and a new mash is started
immediately.  If one designs their procedures so that no vessel is occupied
for more than 2 hours, a brewer can produce 12 batches each day.  That
cannot be done with a combi-tun, because mashing, recirculating and run-off
will exceed the two hour limit.

Have fun!

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown:  Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in
the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002)!



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