HOMEBREW Digest #4179 Mon 24 February 2003

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  RE: Piraat Yeast ("Don")
  re: Guiness bottles ("robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com")
  Re: passivating stainless steel (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Re.Energy Sources (Dion Hollenbeck)
  WLP005 vs Too High a Mash Temp ("Lou King")
  re: Stability test ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Piraat yeast (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Whilpooling and Wort Transfer Question (Jeff Renner)
  RE: HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method (Ronald La Borde)
  RE: HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method (Jonathan ROyce)
  old grain (Ben Hanson)
  HERMS Redux (Kent Fletcher)
  Newbie needs help ("A M")
  Re; Stability Test (Dean Fikar)
  Recipe desired... (Steve and Linda Patterson)
  RTD calibration/correction (David Passaretti)
  Beer and politics ("Patrick Twohy")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:00:21 -0800 From: "Don" <don at steinfillers.com> Subject: RE: Piraat Yeast Jason Henning asks about what yeast to make a tripple like Piraat That yeast is actually banked at White labs (I think). While in Belgium in 2001 I was at the Van Steenberg brewery; brewers of Piraat and Gulden Draak. I asked for and was given a small vial of their yeast, as I also did at Orval, and a few others. Not to digress to much, but when traveling it doesn't hurt to take a few sterile vials. Anyhow, when I got home I sent all my vials to White labs to be banked and (hopefully) available later to all homebrewers. The Orval is now their "Bastogne" yeast. If asked, perhaps WL may release the Van Steenberg yeast. But to answer your question with what is available, I would recommend the White labs WLP550 or WLP570. I just did a tripple and use the 550 with good results. It just took a loonnng time to ferment. Don't forget, whenever doing a high gravity beer use extra yeast - like two vials or stepping it up with a starter and pump some air through your wort or use O2. Don Van Valkenburg Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:03:06 -0800 From: "robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com" <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com> Subject: re: Guiness bottles The widget contains CO2 that is released when you open a Guiness bottle, so there's no way to gain any type of benefit from a used widget. Here's an indepth article URL that talks about Guiness and their widgets: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,49020,00.html Robert - ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:37:23 -0500 > From: MJHarper at adelphia.net > Subject: Old grains and Guinness bottles? > > > ...Next question: > > A friend and I were downing a couple of Guinness the other day and the > question was posed "hey Matt, could you bottle a stout in these > bottles and get the benefits of the widget?" My response was "I > dunno.... Maybe." First I'd be concerned about sanitizing the things, > then I wonder, would it work? Anybody tried it? > > Thanks much! Return to table of contents
Date: 22 Feb 2003 07:05:30 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: passivating stainless steel There is one other reason for passivating stainless steel that no one has seemed to mention. If stainless steel is worked with plain steel tools, or with any sort of abrasive that has previously been used with steel, passivation is done to remove any embedded regular steel from the surface of the stainless. Having worked in my father's electroplating shop for many summers as a teen, I can tell you that we did passivation with straight nitric acid at room temperature. In the aerospace industry which we supplied, after passivation, stainless is baked in an oven for a prolonged period of time to relieve the hydrogen embrittlement which occurs at the surface during passivation. Since brewing equipment is not subjected to structural loading, this should not be a concern. About 7 years ago, I got an acid paste from some company up in the Los Angeles area that is a "mixed acid" and was recommended for clean up of weldments on stainless. No, it is nowhere as friendly as citric. I don't have any experience with citric, so I won't comment. And I no longer have the contact to get the acid paste. Try talking to welding suppliers, as I think that I got it through a welding supply. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen '85 4runner '86 4x4 PU Return to table of contents
Date: 22 Feb 2003 07:08:42 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing Localized heating is the reason why if you have a single probe for temperature control on a RIMS, it should go on the output side of the heater chamber. If you do not let the exiting wort get over the setpoint, then, although your mash may take a small amount of time to stabilize at the recirculating wort temperature, you will never overshoot the setpoint with the recirculating wort. I totally agree that too slow a flow can cause localized hot spots. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen '85 4runner '86 4x4 PU Return to table of contents
Date: 22 Feb 2003 07:18:48 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: Re.Energy Sources >> Patrick Hughes writes: PH> Hope I am not too far behind,on this one but I can never keep up PH> on my reading. Dion responded to Rick about using household LP gas PH> for his brewery and got me more confused. I put together my PH> brewery [over 4 years now and still not done] in my new house PH> excited about the prospect of using the propane that Iwould pipe PH> thru the house for cooking and drying clothes anyway. I talked to PH> my LP supplier and he told me that the gas they supplied to the PH> house was of low pressure about 9lbsand would not work with a King PH> Kooker type unit gecause they were designed for a much highr PH> incoming pressure. Well, incoming pressure has to do with how you plumbed the house. Sorry to have confused you, so I will explain differently on how I got it to work and can support 3 simultaneous Kamp Kookers going full bore. The gas comes out of the tank to a regulator which takes it down to 15psi, the normal pressure that the gas company where I live uses for "high pressure distribution" to buildings from the tank in situations where multiple buildings are fed from the same tank, or one building is a considerable distance from the tank. When the gas pipe reaches my workshop, I Tee off to my brewery directly from the 15psi line and that is what feeds my burners. A second leg of the high pressure incoming line feeds a local regulator which produces about 3-4 inches (yes, inches, very low) of pressure which is what is needed for household furnaces and appliances. If you are trying to drive a Kamp Kooker from the low pressure side of the regulator on your house, you should expect it to fail. If you are trying to drive any kind of burner with that low of a pressure, you will certainly not get the BTUs you are used to expecting from a "hand held" LP tank. If you plumb it correctly, it will work. If you try to just take "house pressure" it will fail. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:23:08 -0500 From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com> Subject: WLP005 vs Too High a Mash Temp As I mentioned on Tuesday, I did my first RIMS batch last Sunday. It is possible, just possible, that there was a calibration issue and my mash temp was too high. The RIMS was set to 152, and the temp read 152 throughout the process, but I have been having issues with my mash tun dial thermometer and it indicated a higher temp throughout the mash. The glass thermometer indicated about 153 during the one check I made so I didn't worry too much. HOWEVER, my fermentation is going more slowly than other recent batches, having dropped from OG of 1.053 to 1.035 in five days (normally I have a much steeper falloff in the first couple of days). I also looked back at my records, and there were two other times I used WLP005 (White Labs Brittish Ale) I let one ferment for three weeks (normally I ferment for two weeks), and the other for 16 days. Unfortunately, my fermentation tracking for the previous two sessions that I did use WLP005 was not as detailed as the tracking I do these days -- i.e., taking a reading every day and graphing of the result. I do remember a slow ferment on the first one (which I had attributed to an aeration issue -- the result was phenolic), but the second one seemed fine. OG/FG on the other batches was 1.052/1.017 (21 days, basically the same nut brown ale as this recipe) and 1.059/1.015 (16 days, IPA, came out fine). This batch's grain bill for 10 gallons of nut brown ale was 17# Brittish Pale Malt (2-row), 1# Chocolate Malt, 1# Crystal 55L Brittish, 1# Melanoidin. I did make a starter in my normal way -- pouring the WLP bottle into 24 oz sterile wort, and letting grow overnight (around 15 hours). Sterile wort was made with about 1/2 c of DME. The starter looked fine for the most part, the right color at least, but the slurry did look somewhat thin. 1. Does fermentation behave like this when mashed at too high a temp? 2. Have others had similar experience with WLP005? Maybe I should just stop making nut brown ale -- I don't even really like it that much... However, I really don't understand why the recipe would be the issue. Lou King http://www.lousbrews.com Ijamsville, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:27:29 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Stability test Patrick Hughes writes ... >Tried the stability test Steve A. and Dean F. spoke of. Put wort sample in >small jelly jar about .5" of air space. Opened 72 hours later smelled and >looked fine. Opened 12 hours after that smelled looked and tasted fine. Did >I conduct this test correctly? Sounds about right. The jar should be kept in a warm place (75-80F-ish) and you should look for visible turbidity and surface colonies. Sniff for off-aromas and taste for off-flavors. Shake and check for CO2 too. 84 hours without a problem is an excellent result, but just for grins keep the stuff around till you do see infection - then get to know the signs of the dominant house infection. >Have been not able to achieve a good cold break,with the nice large clumps >forming immediately after cooling Big clumps are a very hit & miss thing. Small changes in the pH or differences on proteolysis and malt nitrogen content can change the look of the break entirely. Don't worry about large clumps vs small. >Irish Moss ran thru C.F. chiller 60F. into fermenter. Perfect immediate >cold break. What did I do right? I've seen very variable results with IM. It certainly works at times but seems to have little effect at others. The IM itself and whatever clings to it does form a nice satisfying pool of gunk, but the open question is - did it make better beer ? >Is it OK to leave wort sit overnight to rack off cold break material >then pitch yeast. I thought I saw that Steve A. had said he did this? I sometimes will put new wort in the freezer overnight (doesn't freeze) when I want to make a very clean pils. This causes an amazing amount of cold break precipitation. Again it's emotionally satisfying to view the removable gunk, but it *may* be just as good to pitch as soon as the fermenter hits fermentation temp and then to rack to a secondary 12-24 hours later. This and the more complex CO2 trub flotation removal are performed in some lager breweries. -S Return to table of contents
Date: 22 Feb 2003 06:57:36 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: Piraat yeast >> Jason Henning writes: JH> I'm wanting to do a Belgian strong ale. One of my faves is JH> Piraat. Is there any reason to think that the brown ring in the JH> bottom of the bottle is anything but their normal fermenting JH> yeast? If my experience is any measuring stick, it is the normal yeast. I have successfully cultured yeast from van Steenberge Gulden Draak and it ferments true to form. My original culture is, in fact, now banked and sold commercially by one of the well known yeast suppliers. No, I can't tell you which supplier or which yeast. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:29:49 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Whilpooling and Wort Transfer Question "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> admits: >hops pellets ... plugged up the spigot. To >loosen them, I put a piece of tubing on the hose barb and blew back through >the spigot. It took quite a bit of force, held for many seconds before they >broke loose. When they did, I got a great burst of exhaled air to oxygenate >the wort. A better source of pressure is from a CO2 tank (if you have one). It's sterile and won't introduce oxygen if you are clearing a stuck mash. No burned lips, either. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:36:01 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method >From: mailto:ktgold at umich.edu > >Here're my electrically-challenged questions: >-Am I going to burn out the dimmer? Yup, a 500 watt dimmer feeding a 1040 watt element is too much of an overload. You could start a fire, burn out the dimmer, and ruin a brewing session. >-I have another torchiere...if I hook up two 500W >dimmers in series, do I >get 1000W capacity? Nope, it does not work that way. You can purchase from Grainger, a dimmer designed for over 1000 watts. It is not cheap, but would be your best bet. The HERMS idea is great! It probably eliminates all the problems with the heating chamber type of RIMS. No hot spots, even if the mash gets stuck. This, in my opinion is a major advance over RIMS, (lookout flames). In my system, the HERMS coil is just inserted into the HLT, and I use that heated liquor to transfer heat to the mash. I have a 4500 watt element installed in the HLT, with variable power control. I manually control the power without any thermostat, and find that it works well, things happen fairly slowly because I probably have 8-10 gallons in the HLT. Befor I begin to circulate, I have the HLT about 10 degrees higher than the desired mash temp. The mass of the HLT liquor allows a very smooth ramp up. If I rock the coil, things ramp up about 3x faster. I am considering a stirrer, but wonder about HSA. I still dream about this wild crazy system where I have a plastic tubing coil inserted into a microwave oven and use the microwave as the heating device. Cannot figure how to safely input and output the vinyl tubing without causing possible microwave radiation. Any ideas mucho appreciated. Ron ===== Ron Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:45:25 -0800 From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: RE: HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method Greg McLane surmised: "I'm guessing this would be some kind of asymmtotic (sp?) curve, giving me decreasing delta T's as the water gets hotter." Which is indeed the case, since heat transfer (convective and conductive) is a function of the temperature differential. Convective heat transfer: q=hA(T2-T1) where A = area, h = heat transfer coeff., T2 = fluid temp, T1=surface temp Conductive heat transfer: q=kA(T2-T1)/x where A = area, k = heat transfer coeff., T2= surface temp (1), T1 = surface temp There seem to be a lot of questions here and on r.c.b. regarding lengths of CFCs, HERMS coils, etc. If there's interest, perhaps I could put together a spreadsheet that would help out with those calcs. Let me know. HTH, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:45:41 -0500 From: Ben Hanson <bhanson at rica.net> Subject: old grain I think I can already answer this question, but am curious anyway. Has anybody used some old grains mixed into a recipe and been happy with the results? I bought LOTS of specialty grains at about a quarter a bag when the local homebrew shop decided to close its doors, and still have some----about three years later. I don't want to keep it any longer, but would use it anyway if I got enough positive reinforcement.... Thanks Ben Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:33:00 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: HERMS Redux Gary is making a HERMS heat exchanger out of an old coffee urn, and doing his damndest to shorten his brewing (and breathing) carreer: >Here're my electrically-challenged questions: >-Am I going to burn out the dimmer? (in a loud Rod Steiger "Heat of the Night" voice) OH YEAH! >Am I asking for > nice little electrical fire? BEGGING would be a better word... On the bright side, the heat and smoke from the fire MAY save you from electrocuting yourself! >-I have another torchiere...if I hook up two 500W >dimmers in series, do Iget 1000W capacity? Not on your (getting shorter by the minute) life. Ditch the 50 cent lamp dimmers! I'm not sure why you want to use one, anyway. Just let the thing rip, and control it with the Johnson Controls t-stat. >-When I hook this thing up to my Johnson Controls >temp controller (don't have the specs on it handy) am >I in any danger of burning out my controller? Probably not. You most likely have an A19 of some type, their good for up to 22 amps resistive, or about double what you're running. >Yes, yes, GFCI, yeah I know... OK, but DO something about it. Wouldn't want to have that engraved on your marker, would you? Kent Fletcher brewing in so Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:02:39 +0000 From: "A M" <onebigblah at hotmail.com> Subject: Newbie needs help Wow, I am new to the HDB and judging by the archives this looks like an incredible resource, I look forward to any feedback. I will be brewing my third beer ever in a week or so but I have a question about trub and hops, especially pellets. It seems to be an incredible pain in the butt trying to strain out the hop particles and trub from the wert boil when transferring to primary fermenter -- how important is it to remove this crap from the wert before the addition of yeast? I'm thinking about just fermenting with the dissolved hop pellets and not worrying about it. Regarding bottles, 1)screw top beer bottles: can these be capped just like bottles that require a bottle opener to remove the cap? Does the cap seal properly or are screw top bottle useless? 2)Bottles that lack a sufficient lip that a hand capper can grasp, do some breweries use this type of bottle on purpose just to drive people crazy? (because you never realize you can't cap them until they are already filled with your freshly primed beer) Bench cappers don't have trouble with these, I realize, but I only have the "emily capper". Thanks. Regarding spigots, I have purchased two of these so far, not from williams brewing though, but they have a picture: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000Store/images/E39.JPG they both leak, in the time I took me to bottle fill 5 gallons worth of beer I lost probably 2 pints to leakage. Is this typical? Can anyone recommend a spigot to fits a 1" diameter hole that won't leak? Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 08:23:21 -0800 From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at alumni.tcu.edu> Subject: Re; Stability Test Patrick asks: "Tried the stability test Steve A. and Dean F. spoke of. Put wort sample in small jelly jar about .5" of air space. Opened 72 hours later smelled and looked fine. Opened 12 hours after that smelled looked and tasted fine. Did I conduct this test correctly?" Sounds like you did it right. However, one important variable you didn't mention was the temperature you kept the sample at. It should be held at least around 80F, if not a little more. I have on occasion left an unsanitized hydrometer sample (pre-pitching) out in my brewery in the winter months at 50-60F and have come back days later only to find a clean-appearing sample. At 80F the unsanitized sample would get pretty rank in 20-30 hrs. or less. Cheers, Dean Fikar Fort Worth, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:28:10 -0600 From: Steve and Linda Patterson <yooper at ev1.net> Subject: Recipe desired... Just had my first (and second) Double Chocolate Ale by Youngs... does anyone have a clone recipie for it? I think I need a third!!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com> Subject: RTD calibration/correction I have HERMS system based on Sanke kegs. I recently swithced from a thermocouple to an RTD probe for my mash tun/PID controller. I thought that RTD probes were self-calibrating and would not require correction like a TC. Upon testing my probe I found that it is very accurate when compared to a lab thermometer at low temps, eg 70-80F, but off by about 6F at mash temps (150F). Is there something wrong with the probe or is this to be expected. Fortunately my PID has a probe correction value for easy adjustment. This explains the high FG on my last batch. Thanks for any input David Passaretti Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:09:18 -0800 From: "Patrick Twohy" <patrick at twohy.net> Subject: Beer and politics Berkeley, Calif.'s Mayor Tom Bates has taken credit for inventing brew pubs. The student newspaper had this the other day: "I was the person who created and founded the whole idea of brew pubs," Bates said. "It's an idea that has caught on across the country and around the world." http://www.dailycal.org/article.asp?id=10990 So now you know. - -- Patrick Twohy (1784, 274) Rennerian, apparent also known as Burlingame, CA Return to table of contents
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