HOMEBREW Digest #4413 Sat 29 November 2003


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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Titles at the table ("Brian Lundeen")
  Las Vegas Water; S.Cal HB Shops (John Palmer)
  Water ("A.J deLange")
  Upgrading All-Grain System ("Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG")
  Re: Water analysis suggestions to improve mash ("Dave Draper")
  Re: Water ("Andy and Tina Bailey")
  Re: Water analysis suggestions ("Britt Weiser")
  WLP830 German Lager Yeast (susan woodall)
  Regarding Thermometers and Temperature controllers (Ken Meyer)
  Loathing the water in Las Vegas ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: HB Shops in Anaheim CA? ("nephi polder")
  HBD Server Fund Benefit Auction! ("Pat Babcock")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:08:40 -0600 From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: Titles at the table David Houseman writes: > > Only the style/sub-style (and in the case > of special categories) should any ingredients be given to the > judge and never the name of the beer. Names of the beers > could give subtle and subconscious messages to the judges. Judges DON'T see the name of the beer?!! Well, I guess that explains why my "50 point Porter", "World's Best Wit", "First Place Pale Ale" and "BOS Barleywine" haven't been doing as well in competitions as I had expected them to. Sigh, I guess I'll have to resort to old-fashioned methods for winning comps. Like buying a $3000 brew system, and sticking with liquid yeasts. ;-) Cheers Brian, in Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:18:18 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Las Vegas Water; S.Cal HB Shops Andy asks about suggestions for his Las Vegas brewing water for mashing. Here is his water report data: Temp hardness 131 ppm sodium 84 ppm chloride 71.5 ppm sulfate 224 ppm calcium 74 ppm magnesium 28.6 ppm pH 7.9 Total dissalved solids 614 ppm total hardness 302 ppm But what is missing is the other half of the equation - the alkalinity or bicarbonate concentration. Without the alkalinity, there is not enough data to determine how the water will behave in the mash, and it is nearly impossible to calculate what salt additions to make to replicate another city's water. Of course, there is a caveat here: the pH is 7.9, so you can attempt an ionic balance to estimate what the bicarbonate concentration is, and you would probably be in the ballpark. Probably easier to take another look at the report or call the city public works department to find out. Be that as it may, if Andy likes to brew British ales, I would say he's there. There is no need to remove the temporary hardness, you can use that mineral content to your advantage. The sulfate concentration is good too. *** Keith asks where all the brewshops are in and around Anaheim. There is: Beach Cities Homebrew in Costa Mesa (beachcitieshomebrew.com) Brewers Rendezvous in Downey (bobbrews.com) O'Shea Brewing Co. in Laguna Niguel (osheabrewing.com) Steinfillers in Long Beach (steinfillers.com) Beer, Beer, & More Beer in Riverside (morebeer.com) More than you would think within a half hour drive, eh? Good Brewing, John John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:43:23 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Water The following water analysis Temp hardness 131 ppm sodium 84 ppm chloride 71.5 ppm sulfate 224 ppm calcium 74 ppm magnesium 28.6 ppm pH 7.9 Total dissalved solids 614 ppm total hardness 302 ppm doesn't tell us the most important brewing parameter which is the alkalinity but we can guess that it is about 268 from the other numbers. This would give a residual alkalinity of almost 200 which is the real problem with this water even for British beers (to which you are pretty much limited by the large sulfate content). Decarbonation by boiling should work and yes, you need to decant the water off the precipitate or in particular make sure the precipitate doesn't get into the mash tun, at least, as letting it in would be like adding chalk to your mash and totally defeat the decarbonation. Of lesser importance is that over time carbon dioxide from the atmosphere will dissolve in the water and cause some (but not all) of the precipitated chalk to go back into solution. It is not necessary to decant immediately. The redissolution takes some time. Adding phosphoric acid probably isn't the greatest idea as you can overshoot easily as you note (so be sure to use a pH meter and stop adding when the water reaches a pH around 7) and it will also strip out most of the calcium some of which you want to keep in there. You are so heavy in sulfate and chloride that you don't want to add either additional gypsum or calcium chloride. (Note that the boiling above will leave plenty of calcium and magnesium). Other mineral acids (hydrochloric or sulfuric) would probably be better bets but these will, obviously, increase sulfate or chloride depending on which you choose. If acid addition is to be considered perhaps lactic would be a good choice but it will flavor the beer. IMO the best source of acid is dark grains. Obviously dilution with an equal volume of RO water cuts all the numbers in half but it still leaves 100 ppm as CaCO3 residual alkalinity which is still a bit high. 3 parts RO water to 1 part tap water gets the RA down around 50 which is easier to deal with, still leaves plenty of calcium and gets the sulfate and chloride down to the point where you could supplement the calcium with gypsum or calcium chloride without getting too much of either of those anions. Using all RO and building up the mineral profile is clearly the best option in terms of the control and flexibility it lends. Dilution with RO water is probably the simplest. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:50:47 +0300 From: "Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG" Subject: Upgrading All-Grain System Fellow Homebrewers, I'm sitting over here in the desert wishing I was homebrewing. I've decided it's time to upgrade my 5 gallon labor intensive system when I return home this spring. I can't imagine brewing 10 gallons at a time. I just can't drink that much beer. I've been checking out brew kettles at SABCO, Northern Brewer, and More Beer. Presently, I boil in a 7.5 gallon SS bargain brand kettle without a valve which means using an immersion chiller and a sanitized Pyrex measuring cup and funnel to transfer to the carboy...time consuming and labor intensive. It's time for a kettle with a valve, a hop back, and a counterflow chiller. Tell me about ball valves and quick disconnects. I've seen mention of 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch ball valves with a barbed outlet. I've seen a choice between brass or plastic disconnects. I don't have a brew sculpture or designated brew bench...I assemble and disassemble between brews. Should I go with barbed outlets and use silicone hose between the kettle, hop back, and chiller, or should I use quick disconnects? Do I have to use a pump with hop backs? Are there any particular kettle, hop back, chiller combinations that work well together? Todd in Qatar Formerly Todd in Idaho (Todd in Turkey 2 years ago) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:53:15 -0700 From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name> Subject: Re: Water analysis suggestions to improve mash Dear Friends, In #4412 Andy in Las Vegas asks about treating his water of a given analysis and lists a few options for dealing with it. Andy, I always use your Option One (starting with RO water and adding salts to match the desired target) anymore, I just find it far simpler and faster to treat the "blank slate" of RO water to get what I'm after. I have the 5- gal water-cooler plastic bottles and our grocery has the RO machine right there next to the frozen aisle, so it's very convenient and it's worth the extra four bucks for the convenience IMO. Cheers, Dave in ABQ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico David at Draper dot Name Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html Don't pick your nose. ---Domenick Venezia Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:35:04 -0800 From: "Andy and Tina Bailey" <atmlobailey at cox.net> Subject: Re: Water Great response, and thanks for the insite. I will likely start using more RO water than the 50-50 I did last time. Also, where I labled "temporary hardness" should have said alkalinity (it IS labled as alkalynity in my most recent water analysis but I thought the terms were interchangeable) So at least the water isn't as bad as it could be. Perhaps I will just start using all RO water and building it up from there. Anyone know what is the going rate for an adequate RO system? Thanks for the response. Andy > doesn't tell us the most important brewing parameter which is the > alkalinity but we can guess that it is about 268 from the other > numbers. This would give a residual alkalinity of almost 200 which is > the real problem with this water even for British beers (to which you > are pretty much limited by the large sulfate content). Decarbonation by > boiling should work and yes, you need to decant the water off the > precipitate or in particular make sure the precipitate doesn't get into > the mash tun, at least, as letting it in would be like adding chalk to > your mash and totally defeat the decarbonation. Of lesser importance is > that over time carbon dioxide from the atmosphere will dissolve in the > water and cause some (but not all) of the precipitated chalk to go back > into solution. It is not necessary to decant immediately. The > redissolution takes some time. > stuff deleted from A.J.s original post to save space > Using all RO and building up the mineral profile is clearly the best > option in terms of the control and flexibility it lends. Dilution with > RO water is probably the simplest. > > A.J. > Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:49:51 -0600 From: "Britt Weiser" <weiser at net66.com> Subject: Re: Water analysis suggestions > Andy and Tina Bailey writes: > > I am looking for some recommendations to alter the mineral content of my > local water to make it more suitable for all grain brewing. I live inLas > Vegas and the most recent available water anaylsis follows: > > Temp hardness 131 ppm > sodium 84 ppm > chloride 71.5 ppm > sulfate 224 ppm > calcium 74 ppm > magnesium 28.6 ppm > pH 7.9 > Total dissalved solids 614 ppm > total hardness 302 ppm > > Other than the temp hardness, it doesn't look that bad. ( I prefer to brew > british beers ) > > I have considered the following: > > 1) use all RO water and add all of the minerals I to replicate target water > 2) dilute the tap water 50/50 with RO water and adjust the mineral content > 3) add calcium choride, boil the tap water to remove much of the temp > harndess. My question with this option is, do I really need to decant off > the precipitate, or is the precipitate harmless once it has been taken out > of solution? > 4) adjust the tap water with some of my 30% food grade phosphoric acid > (downside is that since this is so strong it can be very easy to add too > much) Andy, I think you're in great shape with the above water analysis. My water has 146 ppm bicarb with a pH of 9.2. As long as I make sure my calcium is at least 75-100 ppm, I haven't had any trouble with my mash getting to the desirable pH of 5.2-5.5. If your mash pH doesn't come down to the desired range, then I would recommend adding acid to get original water to a neutral pH (6.8), and then mash. Also, I would recommend adding acid to your sparge water to get it below pH of 6. I take my sparge water to pH of 5.8. I'm not sure, but the sulfate level may make it difficult to brew a soft, malty beer. You may want to experiment by diluting your water with RO water. If you're brewing malty beers, you may want to add 1 teaspoon of CaCl. By my calculations, this would add 43 ppm Ca and 89 ppm Cl. If you're brewing hoppy beers, you may want to add 1/2 - 1 teaspoon of gypsum. 1 t would add approx. 50 ppm Ca and 107 ppm SO4. Keep in mind brewing books say a Sulfate level greater than 450-500 ppm can give excess bitterness. Britt Weiser Champaign, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:59:46 -0800 From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com> Subject: WLP830 German Lager Yeast can anyone give me any advice or their perspective on WLP830 German Lager Yeast. What are this yeasts flavor characteristic and profile? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:38:51 -0600 From: Ken Meyer <keno5 at wi.rr.com> Subject: Regarding Thermometers and Temperature controllers For those with a handy streak who aren't afraid of a soldering iron I have found this link invaluable. http://hbd.org/mtippin/thermometer.html I have used the information from this web page to build my own thermometer several temperature controllers for a refrigerator and a chest freezer and also incorporated it in the temperature controller of my RIM system. Most of the parts can be obtained from Radio Shack and for folks like me who like building the equipment as much as brewing the beer this is a great way to go. Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:26:27 -0900 From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com> Subject: Loathing the water in Las Vegas Andy asks for options for brewing water adjustments for the water in Las Vegas. Andy is almost correct in stating that "Other than the temp hardness, it doesn't look that bad". The other thing that concerns me is the high magnesium and sodium content. Andy says he considered several options for water adjustment, but I have to recommend that dilution with RO water is probably the way to go for most brewing styles. The existing water does look OK for use as a "Burtonized" water. Andy considers using all RO water and adding minerals as needed. This is always an option, but not necessary in all cases. The 50/50 dilution is a pretty good suggestion for many brewing styles. The other suggestions that Andy proposes, boiling with decanting and acid addition, are possibilities for addressing the alkalinity problem. But, they don't address the other mineral excesses. The existing water has a slightly high residual alkalinity (RA) of 61. That makes it a little unsuited for pale beers. An acid addition takes care of that. My calculations show that it will take 2.5 tsp of 30% phosphoric to bring 5 gal of sparge water to pH 5.3. It only takes 0.17 tsp of that acid to neutralize the alkalinity in about 2.5 gal of mash water. One of those graduated medicine droppers is just the ticket for gauging acid additions. Diluting the existing water with 50% RO water does a world of good for this water. The diluted water has ion concentrations of: Ca = 37ppm, Mg = 14ppm, Na = 42ppm, Sulfate = 112ppm, Cl = 36ppm, and Bicarb = 79ppm. The RA drops to about 30. It will only take 1.25 tsp of the phosphoric to treat the 5 gal of sparge water to pH 5.3. A miniscule .06 tsp of the acid will neutralize 2.5 gal of mash water. With the low RA, I wouldn't bother with any mash water pH adjustments. The mash should take care of itself. I've only been to Las Vegas a few times. I'm surprised that I didn't notice the minerally nature of the water there. I guess I was drinking other stuff there ;-) Its my understanding that most of the city's water comes from the Colorado River. I would have expected a lower degree of mineralization for a surface water source, but I guess its a long river! I hope to be back in Las Vegas this summer for some Beer and Loathing. I'll be sure to taste the water then. Martin Brungard Tallahassee, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:27:51 -0800 From: "nephi polder" <nefipoda at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: HB Shops in Anaheim CA? Keith, You'll find a directory of homebrew shops at the Brew Your Own website (www.byo.com). The home page has a homebrew supply directory link for the whole country. I've found it is up to date for the LA area. You're in between three shops I know of, at about a half hour drive each. My favorite is Stein Fillers in Long Beach. Nephi Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:02:32 -0500 From: "Pat Babcock" <Pat.Babcock at hbd.org> Subject: HBD Server Fund Benefit Auction! Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Glenn Raudins generously donated two sets of his Classic Brewing and Distilling Series (back when it was only three books) to the HBD as a fund raiser. These sets sold for $85.00 each, and are no longer available as a set - they can only be purchased individually, or as part of the larger, 4-book set. Until NOW - and just in time for Christmas! These two sets of Glenn's spectacular, handsomely bound historical reprints are now available for you to bid upon on ebay. They make a great Christmas gift for yourself or your brewing friends, and I can personally attest that they look GREAT on any bookshelf! Each set contains: The Complete Practical Brewer, 1852, by M.L. Byrn The Complete Practical Distiller, 1875, by M.L. Byrn The Town and Country Brewery Book, circa 1830, by W. Brande The auction on these fine publications commences at 12:00am, Tuesday, 12/02/2003 and will run for a week, this to allow those who can only read at work a fair chance!. The following URLs will take you to their listings once the auction has commenced. <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2363191535> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2363190507> As an added bonus, the proceeds from these auctions go directly to support the HBD Server Fund - what a better Christmas gift? A gift for you or your brewing friend, and a donation to the HBD all at once? Ah! It just makes me giddy with the Holiday Spirit! - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
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