HOMEBREW Digest #4659 Wed 24 November 2004

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  Re: Predicting IBUs: Immersion vs counterflow chillers (Fred Johnson)
  haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown ("Rob Moline")
  Distilling Barleywine ("Rob Moline")
  copper oxides (Randy Ricchi)
  Distillation, pH pHilospHy ("A.J deLange")
  RE: distilling (Bill Velek)
  Re: Temperature Correction (Hop Utilization) (val.dan.morey)
  Bittering, flavor and aroma ("Peed, John")
  2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series Winners ("info")
  More on late hop additions ("Mike Sharp")
  What's up with this!? ("Sean Harper")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:25:29 -0500 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> Subject: Re: Predicting IBUs: Immersion vs counterflow chillers I'm truly grateful for the work Dan Morey put into my question about hop utilization using immersion versus counterflow chillers. Dan says: > Combining Garetz elevation/temperature correction with the standard > atmosphere table and steam tables, I came up with the following > correction for temperature: > > Ct = 0.022 * e^(0.018 * T), where T is temperature in degrees F > > Effective utilization is: > > %Uc = %util * Ct I must ask if the equation Dan has used which corrects utilization as a function of temperature well accepted in the industry/community? It certainly surprised Dan (and me) to see that this equation predicts a significant contribution of bitterness from dry hopping. Finally, do we know how fast the wort was cooled by those pioneers who have produced the formulas we all use for calculating IBUs? Perhaps Dan has given us reason to make some adjustments to those formulas. How many of us brew one liter batches in a laboratory and crash cool the wort within a few minutes? Fred L Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:10:06 -0600 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown Tobias to the rescue... It is very difficult to determine ploidy in brewing strains. Only lab strains are haploid or diploid. Brewing strains are at least diploid most of them are polyploid or anoiploid (an abnormality involving a chromosome number that is not an exact multiple of the haploid number) Tobias > Anyone have a haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown of various commonly > available brewing yeast? I assume most single strain ale are haploid > and most single strain lager are tetrapoid but are there any diploid > strains floating around out there? I do a lot of re-pitching; it's more > a question about stability than anything. > > Thanks, > > Chad Stevens > QUAFF > San Diego "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 10/27/2004 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:30:13 -0600 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Distilling Barleywine Distilling Barleywine Unless you are running out of bottles, wait another year...or two..BW's take time, and what you can't appreciate now, may be golden later. This was certainly the case in my best BW. Gump My Christmas barley wine is not carbonating. It was brewed early January and kept in secondary in a fridge for 6 months at approx. 40 degrees and bottled in late June. Late July I opened a bottle to taste and it tasted great but was flat. I opened all bottles and added a sugar syrup and champagne yeast starter. In September it was still flat but tasted sweeter and there was a thin layer of dark crud at the bottom of the bottle. I was using some hootch printed overrun caps that could possibly be the culprit as I think the crud signifies that fermentaion took place. I think it is going to be too much effort to save this batch and rather than pouring it the drain I am contemplating distilling it using a pressure cooker, it is already 14% abv. Has anybody tried this? Any ideas on what results to expect? Could I possibly end up with a malt whiskey for Christmas? Alan Colton Swamp Water Brewery of Belize, Consejo Shores, Belize. "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 10/27/2004 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:25:29 -0500 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us> Subject: copper oxides I've often seen posts like the recent one about an immersion chiller coming out of the wort bright and shiny. The strange thing is, mine NEVER comes out bright and shiny. Right now my chiller is fairly dark and I've been thinking about a quick boil in some water with lemon juice to drop the ph. This has worked will with a small piece of copper pipe that I use on the inside of my boiler to fasten a stainless steel scrubby for filtering my hops. Apparently my wort ph is not low enough to dissolve the oxides, but still low enough to make decent beer. I don't have any astringency, and I generally get around 87% extraction rate. Does anyone know if the ph "threshold" for dissolving copper oxides is right in the range of typical wort ph? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:30:55 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Distillation, pH pHilospHy I have distilled barley wine (commercial, in the presence of it's maker, for the purpose of determining alcoholic strength, with the blessing of the BATF) and I must say the distillate stinks. But, as I said, I was doing it in order to obtain ALL the alcohol per the ASBC method. I immagine that if the object were potable spiritis the product would be improved by discarding the "heads" and "tails", just as a commercial distiller would do. Also a commercial distiller would use a column or multiple passes. This should help to eliminate the undesirable stuff. Done right what comes out of the condenser should be alcohol and water though traces of other organics might make it through even multiple passes or a column with lots of theoretical plates. These would probablybe diminished if the product were stored for a time in contact with charcoal (which is also commercial practice). Doing the math: 19 l (5 gal) of 10% ABV barley wine would yield at most 1.9L of alcohol after a lot of trouble and some risk of injury. I'd buy a couple of fifths of vodka and be done with it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * While there is little point in extensively debating the need for pH measurement in home brewing I would like to at least explain the position of some of the perhaps geekier ones among us (or maybe I am alone in this) that pH is as important a measurement as temperature. We are all quite fastidious about hitting our temperatures within a fraction of a degree. Why? Because if we do that we feel that we have one of variables which can have a major effect on the nature of the final product under control. We know that if we don't have repeatability with respect to mash temperature that our attempts to discern the effect of some other process parameter that we are experimenting with (say fermentation temperature) may be impeded because mash temperature may be as much or more responsible for a perceived difference in the beer than the variable whose effect we are attempting to assess (fermentation temperature in this example). If you brew two worts in two different sessions and hit the same temperature and pH at each step then you are assured that the two worts are closer than if you only have the temp data because one more parameter is under control. Note that many - but not all - professional brewers do this. They are, of course, more concerned with having Old Overshoe be the same from batch to batch than we are in having two batches come out the same but my point here is that the more variables we have under control the more free we are to experiment with confidence. There are, of course, lots of other process variables that commercial brewers will measure (malt specs, wort sugar spectrum, wort FAN, dissolved oxygen ....) to which the same reasoning applies but these all require lab time and, in many cases, really expensive equipment. The pH measurement, while it is more difficult to do than a temperature measurement and does require more elaborate equipment, is within reach of the home brewer inclined to make it. A.J. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:30:08 -0600 From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net> Subject: RE: distilling In HBD#4657, Kevin Haborak wrote, with regard to the proposal to distill an off tasting beer: "I definitely would not try to distill the beer using a pressure cooker. Take the safe route and freeze it. Skim the ice off the top as it freezes." First, I'm not sure that you are going to accomplish much besides taking a somewhat foul-tasting beer, and turning it into a somewhat foul-tasting strong-drink of some sort (brandy or whatever). Second, what are you implying that distilling an already fermented beer in a pressure cooker is unsafe? Assuming that he has an intact pressure relief valve and safety plug, what could possibly be unsafe about this; I realize that distilling temps can cause the distillation of heads and tails -- alcohols other than ethanol, which are toxic -- however, in a beer that has fermented already, I don't see how you are going to create any more heads or tails than already exist in the beer, although I will conceded that you might be concentrating one more than another. Still, I have a hard time believing that there is enough in beer to be accidentally concentrated to a level that is unsafe. Can you be more specific as to the danger that you perceive here? Thanks. Bill Velek Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:51:44 -0600 From: val.dan.morey at juno.com Subject: Re: Temperature Correction (Hop Utilization) Yesterday I posted an approximation for temperature correction. Fred, has asked if it is widely accepted in industry or hobby. I'd venture to say no. To answer how immersion cooling was different than counter flow cooling, one must account for temperature. I could not find a temperature correlation in my brief search; however I came across Garetz correction for elevation: TF = ((elevation/550) * 0.02) + 1, where elevation is measured in feet I believe the intent of the correction factor is to account for the variation in boiling temperature due to elevation. Boiling point various due to pressure, not elevation. If my memory is correct, it was NACA (now NASA) which performed several experiments and developed the standard atmosphere table. This table describes the idealized/average state of the atmosphere with relationship to elevation. One of the characteristics is pressure. Of course pressure will vary with weather conditions. Using the pressure from the standard atmosphere table, we can get the boiling point of water from the steam table. This becomes our idealized correction for boiling point verses altitude. For typical elevations, the relationship is basically linear: Tboil = 212 - 0.00185*h, h is elevation in feet and Tboil in degrees F In the Garetz method, TF appears in the denominator of the bitterness calculation and utilization in the numerator. I prefer to keep my correction factors as a multiplier to the utilization, so I took the reciprocal of TF (or 1/TF) and plotted it against the approximated temperature. Using curve fitting, the equation: Ct = 0.022*e^(0.018*T), where T is in degrees F was found to be a good fit. When applying this equation, most of the points are outside of the data set (unless you are in a laboratory you're not going to boil water at 80 F). So, the correction are extrapolated from the trend at higher temperatures. So caution is warranted. However, the curve does decay quickly. A change of less than 40F , which happens quickly is predicted to cut utilization in half. Since it decays quickly, I'd be comfortable that the errors are not significant for our calculation. It maybe controversial, but I believe the models do predict that dry hopping adds bitterness. My taste buds seem to agree. I just wanted to explain this a bit more before I got totally flamed. Cheers, Dan Morey Club BABBLE http://hbd.org/babble/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:06:04 -0500 From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com> Subject: Bittering, flavor and aroma I switched from an immersion chiller to a pumped convoluted counterflow chiller last year. I really didn't notice any increase in bitterness of my beers, although I may have noticed and corrected for it over a series of brews (I have more trouble duplicating bitterness from batch to batch than anything else). I would caution against over-correcting, though, and I would adjust the bittering hops, not the contact time or temperature of the aroma hops. For a long time I tried to get more delicate aroma and flavor by limiting the contact time or temperature of aroma hops. The more I dialed the contact time or temperature down, the more grapefruity the beer got (when using American hops). Finally, a professional brewer told me to steep my aroma hops for forty minutes with the pot covered to get the full benefit of aroma and flavor. Ignoring all I've read about DMS production, I tried it and, lo and behold, no more grapefruit beer. Counter to intuition, I got more delicate flavors and aromas by steeping longer and at higher temperatures. And counter to much of what I've read about DMS, I did not get any DMS production from letting the boil kettle sit covered for 40 minutes without any cooling. A vigorous boil with no cover on the kettle goes a long way toward DMS reduction. Experience tells me that you should not add aroma hops at reduced temperatures or for short times. Something that should be made abundantly clear to beginners is that "aroma" and "flavor" hop additions are misnomers - each will affect the other, and even dry hops can add to the apparent bitterness just due to the pungent nature of hop aromas and flavors. I would also agree with Stuart Grant and others that you shouldn't get a lot of additional bitterness from steeping hops because they aren't being thrashed around in the wort. But if you do find you're getting more bitterness than you want, dial the bittering hops back. John Peed Oak Ridge, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:07:50 -0500 From: "info" <info at antiochsudsuckers.com> Subject: 2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series Winners The 2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series has come to a close, congrats to all for making it a great year. All partici- pating competitions received a healthy number of entries, making the Mid-South competitions among some of the largest in the Eastern US. The winners are... 2004 Mid-South Homebrew Club of the Year - ----Rocket City Brewers---- 2004 Mid-South Homebrewer of the Year - ----John Tipton - Madison, AL---- Results are posted here: http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/midsouth/mshboy2004.htm Congratulations to everyone, the Antioch Sud Suckers Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:03:05 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: More on late hop additions Dan Morey's post agrees with my (completely unsupported) opinion on the matter, that the difference in utilization of late hop additions with respect to cooling method are negligible. I'm wondering, though, if the cold break remaining in the kettle with immersion chilling and the cold break ending in the fermenter with CFC chilling aren't at least partly responsible for the *perceived* differences in IBUs of the finished beer. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:53:05 -0500 From: "Sean Harper" <seanjharper at hotmail.com> Subject: What's up with this!? Greetings fellow Brewer's from Brewer Maine, I just racked into a secondary a mouth-watering spiced Imperial Stout slated for consumption this Christmas. My query is thus: usually when I rack into the secondary there is an amount of action in the beer (in the process of moving the beer the yeast starts up again resulting in some extra fermentation in the secondary). However this time there is no action at all.. I even put in some yeast nutrients as I was racking to push for a higher drop in the final gravity (this is a BIG beer). I have no action whatsoever, nothing...Not even a buble! Is this an issue? Did I not rinse the fermenter enough (meaning, is there an amount of sanitizer contaminating my precious brew)? What does this mean... Any response would be greatly appreciated, feel free to e-mail me directly. thanks again, Sean Harper Brewer, Me. Return to table of contents
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