HOMEBREW Digest #4814 Sun 31 July 2005

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  FOY, 05 - Yeast stress response question for Chris Powell ("Rob Moline")
  Response-FOY-05: Mead/Wine - Oskaar ("Rob Moline")
  Response-FOY, 05-- Commercial starters ("Rob Moline")
  Further Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism ("Rob Moline")
  Rod and Dave's Coke ("Rob Moline")
  metabisulfite and modern  Coca Cola ("Dave Burley")
  Turbid vs. Decoction step mash (Chad Bohl)
  coke taste and smell (Chet Nunan)
  coke flavors (David Scheidt)
  Coke ("larry  maxwell")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:07:38 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: FOY, 05 - Yeast stress response question for Chris Powell A hearty welcome to Chris Powell on FOY! The descriprion of his earlier work reminds me of a question regarding yeast stress. Chris, I've briefly studied the literature on yeast stress response. It appears that important stress response genes, such as those for heat shock proteins, are under the control of upstream Stress Response Elements (SREs) and are co-ordinately regulated. Studies seem to indicate that this results in cross-protection against a given type of physiological stress following exposure to a different type of stress. So, for example, heat shock may lead to increased resistance to osmotic stress. The question is, can this phenomenon be exploited in brewing in prepariong yeast for highly stressfull fermentations? For instance, when pitching into a very high gravity ferment, such as a mead or barleywine (high osmotic stress), could the yeasts' performance be enhanced by a mild stress exposure during starter production or close to pitching? I stress (pun intended) that this would be a mild stress, just enough to start inducing the protective systems, but well below any level that would actually lower the yeasts' health/viability. Looking forward to your response, Alan Alan Meeker, PhD Assistant Professor of Pathology and Urology Department of Pathology Division of Genitourinary Pathology Bunting-Blaustein Cancer Research Building Room 153 1650 Orleans Street Baltimore, MD 21231-1000 Alan, You are exactly correct in your statement regarding STRE, and I'll attempt to answer your question specifically in due course. However, it's worth discussing the subject briefly to appreciate the complexity involved. S. cerevisiae cells generally respond to stress in several ways which can be categorized as 'specific' and 'general' responses. Often 'specific' responses can aid in prevention against other stresses, but this is not their primary purpose. For a 'general' response yeast possess three positive transcriptional control elements (at least which have been identified so far). These are Heat Shock Elements (HSE's), stress response elements (STRE's) and AP-1 responsive elements (ARE's). The reason I mention these elements is because the three types have overlapping but distinct functions. Of the three types, STRE has recently been the focus of most work due to the huge number of stresses which can cause activation of a STRE activated 'global stress response'. These range from temperature shock, osmotic shock, oxidative stress, starvation, nitrogen/glucose depletion, the list goes on. So far around 200 genes have been shown to be induced by stress purely through the STRE promoter sequence. The products of these genes obviously have a variety of functions, but many of them enable the cell to protect its organelles, membranes, produce specific proteins, lay down carbohydrate reserves and generally prepare for the bad times ahead. Importantly, once a stress factor is removed the cell must revert to its previous state in order to function efficiently. This again is more complicated than it sounds, as a cell must repair any damage sustained as well as removing the (now defunct) products of the stress response. I wanted to express the complexity of the stress response in yeast before answering your question. Theoretically it is possible to prepare yeast cells for a stressful environment by applying a mild shock. However, even though viability may not be affected, there is a strong chance that the vitality of cells may be impaired in some way. Starvation for example may cause upregulation of pathways which may procure some form of osmotic protectant on the yeast cell, but simultaneously will also lead to depleted glycogen in the yeast, which could be disastrous for fermentation. To simplify, there is no benefit in increasing the levels of specific shock protectants in place of something that would be of more use in fermentation. Another issue that is of importance is that the response of yeast to stress is commonly strain specific. Subjecting one strain to osmotic shock (for example) invariably does not produce exactly the same response in another strain, this can be seen in brewing yeast where one strain may ferment a high gravity wort (for example) particularly quickly, while another may not be able to cope at all. Consequently it is difficult to predict how a culture (or indeed cells within the culture) will respond to a particular stress. However, having said that many industries do employ mild stresses (most commonly heat) to prepare cells in some way. So to get back to the point, theoretically applying stress such as a mild heat shock, by raising temperature of the yeast to around 5 degrees C higher than 'normal' for a short period of time (1-2hours) may procure some benefits to the yeast, however, be warned - it could be a double edged sword ! Chris - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:20:45 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Response-FOY-05: Mead/Wine - Oskaar Subject: FOY-2005: Mead/Wine - Oskaar Questions for the panel: 1. Relating to mead/wine: I see that wine makers are adding their yeast inoculum through the manway in their fermenters to give the yeast a head start on any already present microbes/flora. Question: Does the introduction of the yeast into the fermenter as the juice is filling the tank add value to other roles as well such as aeration, and does it accelerate the growth dynamics of the yeast? Would this be beneficial for smaller scale production in the ten to twenty gallon range for us home mead/wine makers? Response: You are right about adding the yeast to the fermenter ASAP to give them a head start on the already present micro flora. This is especially true when it takes a long time to fill the fermenter. It is not uncommon for some wineries to take 10 to 48 hours to fill their fermenters. Some people have proposed to add the yeast at the crusher or even in the gondolas as the grapes are being harvested. It take most active dry wine yeast several hours to begin their growth phase. During this lag phase the wild micro flora are in their active growth phase. So the longer you wait to add your yeast to the must the more spoilage organisms you have. The yeast do benefit from the splashing and oxygen uptake. However, they benefit from the oxygen much more at about the 36th hour. Many of the spoilage organisms die off or at least reach their stationary phase at 2 - 5% alcohol. So the sooner the added yeast can get through their lag phase and start growing and producing alcohol the sooner they will overwhelm the spoilage organisms and minimize their production of aromas and flavors. Some of these spoilage organisms produce compounds that add to the complexities of the wine when they are present in trace quantities but can become off flavors and aromas and even toxic to the added yeast if the added yeast does not over whelm them soon enough. The sooner you get the added yeast through its lag phase and into its growth phase the safer you are. The added yeast produces 30+ times as much alcohol per yeast cell during its growth phase than it does during the stationary phase. You can keep it in its growth phase longer by proper rehydration (Go Ferm), nutrient addition and minimizing spoilage micro flora growth. This information does not necessarily translate directly to all 5 - 10 gallon operations. However the principle of getting the adding yeast into the must or mead ASAP holds true. With good equipment cleaning and sanitizing practices, honey and grape concentrate offer very little spoilage micro flora problems. However, with frozen juice and whole berries there is always the possibility of spoilage organism problems. Clayton Cone 2. Relating to mead/wine: I've been reading that yeasts like nitrogen from different sources during different phases in the early stages of fermentation. I've seen recommendations for using DAP at the end of the lag phase and Fermaid-K at the 1/3 sugar depletion phase. Does this play a bigger role than supplementing YANC and FAN already present in the must to ensure optimal fermentation dynamics? I generally work in ten to twenty gallon batches, what is the proper dosing of DAP to use when preparing the must for introduction of the yeast, and at the end of the lag phase? Response: I wish that there was a universal protocol for the addition of nutrients to all fermentations, but there isn't. There are too many caveats: 1. Wild yeast spoilage organisms are the main problem that must be addressed. They can consume many times their requirement of minerals and vitamins during the early hours of the fermentation leaving the must deficient for the added yeast when they get through their lag phase an into their growth phase. So it is not wise to add a well balanced nutrient such as Fermaid K at the beginning of fermentation when there is the potential for the presents of wild spoilage organisms such as you may find in fresh crushed apples for cider and whole berries, fresh or frozen juice. With good cleaning and sanitary practices, there is very little problems of spoilage yeast with honey and concentrates. So, it is safe to add the well balanced nutrient at the beginning of the fermentation when the yeast needs all the nutrients and will not have to share them with spoilage organisms. Then add DAP in increments during the growth phase and into the beginning of the stationary phase. Yeast like a fresh source of nitrogen during the growth phase and will reward you with minimum production of H2S and a healthy cell through out the entire fermentation. 2. How much nutrient to add is the next problem to be addressed. For all practical purposes, honey, apple juice, corn and cane syrup contain no nutrients for the yeast. So, 2 pounds of a well balanced nutrient such as Fermaid K and 2 pounds of Fermaid 2133 (autolysis yeast) and 4 pounds of DAP / 1000 gallons of must. Grape juice concentrate contain very little nutrients for the yeast. A lot of the nitrogen and minerals and vitamins have been removed during the preparation for evaporation. So for insurance, it is best to assume that there are little to no nutrients available for the yeast and follow the above recommendations. FAN or YAN in fresh grape juice can vary over a wide range depending on the grape varietal, vineyard practices and season from 40 PPM YAN to well over 500 PPM YAN. If you have the YAN analysis, these are our recommendations: http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/nutrient_strains.php If you do not have a YAN analysis you should add 2 - 4 lbs. of DAP over the first 1/3 of the fermentation and 1 - 2 lbs of Fermaid K after 1/3 of the sugar has been converted to alcohol. 3. Oxygen should be considered as a yeast nutrient, so make sure that the yeast gets enough O2 near the end of its growth phase. 4. Potassium is a nutrient requirement that should be taken into consideration in honey, corn and cane sugar and grape concentrate fermentation. 1/2 to 1 lb of potassium carbonate should take care of this requirement added with in the first 12 hours of the fermentation. Clayton Cone - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:27:31 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Response-FOY, 05-- Commercial starters Subject: Fortnight of Yeast - Commercial starters When pitchable quantities of "liquid" yeast are provided to a commercial microbrewery by a commerical yeast producer, in what stage of the life of the yeast is the yeast supplied? It is my understanding--please correct me where I am wrong--that commercial yeast producers typically propagate the yeast aerobically with constant infusion of medium at rates that maintain very low glucose concentrations in the culture--conditions that avoid induction of the Crabtree effect of high glucose. At some point in the propagation, the infusion of the medium is discontinued and the yeast are allowed to consume the remainder of the fermentables and to flocculate. Is this the stage in which the pitchable quantities of yeast are sold to commercial microbreweries? If not, tell us what the yeast producers provide to commercial breweries. Fred L Johnson Tobias: The method you described is probably used by some commercial yeast producer brewing for liquid brewing yeast and we use a similar approach for our dry yeast production. However at Siebel we produce the yeast upon request and use very well aerated step up propagations for that. For these batch propagations we use regular all malt brewers' wort which is supplemented with extra nutrients, like minerals and vitamins, to ensure optimum growth and high viability and vitality. When all the sugars are consumed in the last batch propagation a sample is taken for QC and the propagation vessel is cooled to allow the yeast to settle. The media/beer is then decanted to concentrate the yeast. Once all QC tests are finished and the yeast meets all our specifications it is shipped cooled to the customer. This whole process takes up to 2 weeks, which means that the customer will receive the yeast 5 to 6 days after the propagation is finished. That is how long it takes to complete QC and for shipping. - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:40:02 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Further Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism Further Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism Brewsters: I sent this last week or so, but realized this, like a number of other past submissions of mine were not making it on the HBD and I was not getting a bounce message. So a little out of date, but here is my question and comment for the group and those fine Gentlemen from Lallemand. I have modified my format for message approximately as that fabled Janitor, Pat Babcock, instructs and we will see if this does it. (Editorial note: It failed. I forced this on since his post is coming through as multipart MIME with html attachments. Folks, whenever pasting an URL, ensure your mailer hasn't converted it to an HTML tag - as appears to have been the case here.) Clayton Cone has explained that if have more than 0.2% glucose in our starters that we cannot expect any cell wall improvement even in the presence of oxygen, since the mechanism changes from a Pasteur Efftect to a Crabtree effect.. Presumably the addition of oxygen to our wort at the beginning of the fermentation will likewise make no sense. Does thismean we ned to wait until the end of the fermentation? And why do it at all?. Response: I am glad that you asked this question because I did not wish to imply that there would be no cell wall improvement even in the presence of oxygen at >0.2% sugar. When the wort has more than >0.2% sugar, the function of the O2 is to assist the yeast in producing lipids. The lipids in the cell wall act as a growth factor by keeping the cell wall fluid, allowing buds to form. The production of these lipids require trace amounts of oxygen to move the squalene to the lipid stage. With out O2 the mother cell cannot produce any lipids and must shares her lipids with her daughter cell. This can occur for about 3 - 4 cycles before the cell wall becomes leathery and will not allow a new bud to form. Active Dry Beer Yeast initially contain enough lipids in their cell wall for 3 - 4 growth cycles. This is enough to complete most beer fermentations. Recycled yeast usually do not contain enough lipids for 3 - 4 growth cycles. The lipids must be replenished with fresh additions of Oxygen. In low gravity brewing, oxygen at the beginning of the fermentation is usually adequate. It is when you get into hi gravity brewing that additional oxygen is helpful after 12 to 24 hours of fermentation. Dr. Mike Ingledew has found that aeration at about the 14th hours is optimum for high gravity brewing. We have found that aeration after 36 hours is optimum for wine fermentations. Clayton Cone So we need to develop method of stirring our starters which will keep the glucose concentration low, but allow yeast to grow more cell wall fatty acid contaiing substances. Since few of us have the metering and measuring equipment to do this in a strarightforward process control way, perhaps there is another way to do it. Response: One of the functions of a batch starter culture is to produce alcohol and a healthy cell mass free!free!free! of any contamination. Alcohol produced at this stage at the sacrifice of cell mass is welcome because it minimizes spoilage organisms. Mechanical stirring such as a magnetic stirrer with out an airlock is great. However, any attempt to add nutrients or sugar during the starter stage to keep a low level of sugar, lends itself to contamination. Clayton Cone 1) Clayton: Any idea about how fast sucrose would be inverted e.g. if we started with a 1% sucrose solution with appropriate nutrient levels in a strirred, oxygenated starter , is there any chance that the rate of inversion would be slower than the rate of consumption (I guess this would be yeast concentration dependent) , so we can keep the glucose ( does Crabtree also work for fructose?) concentration down and permit good cellwall development in an oxygenated starter? Response: The invertase enzyme produced by the yeast converts the sucrose to glucose much faster than the yeast can metabolize the glucose. I believe that the Crabtree Effect is nearly the same for fructose. Clayton Cone 2) How about the Overflow Metabolism effect? Response: I am not familiar with the Overflow Metabolism effect. Clayton Cone www.biotech.kth.se/courses/3A1308/Downloads/Overflowmetabolism.pdf Does this affect your explanation? Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:36:43 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Rod and Dave's Coke Rod and Dave's Coke Rod jokes about the coca....although I can't locate it, I know the WSJ had an article years ago regarding the fact that to defend the COCA-COLA trademark, Coke has relied on a US based lab, highly regulated (and armed) that imports coca leaf....after the leaf is treated and the active ingredients removed for use in the medical...ENT...field.....the coca leaf, now not much more than cellulose is shipped to the plants that engineer syrup for Coke....thus continuing the legend, accurately, that Coke is Coke....and supporting the "COCA-COLA" trademark. I'm sure Louis Bonham could add more...... But the greatest diff is surely the presence or absence of cane sugar vs. corn syrup. Obvious to me decades ago...get on a plane in LA, have a Coke...get off the plane in Sydney, have a Coke. Cheese and Chalk. Oz cane sugar wins..... Gump "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:13:06 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: metabisulfite and modern Coca Cola Brewsters: Andy asks if metabisulfite is as effective in beer making as in wine making. And the answer is - it all depends. In winemaking you can generally use the metabisulfite by itself as an antioxidant and microbe control in the wine, as wine is typically acidic and low pH. Beer does not always meet these requirements. At pH = 3.3 and below, metabisulfite is basically sulfurous acid and is at its peak activity. As the pH goes up, the activity of the meta quickly declines, such that about 3.7 or so it is essentially inactive as a simple sanitizing rinse. All those beer books which tell you to rinse with plain metabisulfite solutions as a sanitizing agent just like you did when making wine are wrong. In fact, in winemaking it is also wrong unless the meta solution comes into contact with the wine or some acid. The pH of a metabisulfite solution is above pH = 7 and the main reason metabisulfite crystals are relatively stable. One of the instability factors in home winemaking is when over-ripe grapes with a pH = 3.7 or higher are used. These wines will be unstable microbiologically and oxidatively. BTW You should renew your metabisulfite supply on an annual basis, as it does decompose, even as a crystal. To use metabisulfite as a vessel rinse with beer and wine, you should make sure the pH of the solution you are rinsing with is pH = 3.3 and below by adding acid to the meta solution. I use tartaric acid but other food safe acids are OK. - -------------------- Roger Burns comments about modern Coke flavor, changing taste buds with age and believes in Coke's stability of flavor over time. I doubt this sincerely, as Coke has to respond to the vagaries of the commercial marketplace (remember high fructose syrups and high priced sugar a few years ago) just like beer brewers and other producers do. You must remember Coke's "attempt" to match Pepsi in sweetness not too long ago. I suspect this was a marketing ploy to quietly introduce another sugar source and modify the recipe. It "failed" but the architect of this campaign at Coke was promoted to VP. Not too shabby of a failure. I doubt that Coke's taste is universal, planet-wide, just as I doubt that Dutch beers taste the same here as they do in the Netherlands. I can guarantee that the delicious full mouthed raw sugar taste that used to be a part of the Coke flavor is gone. I do know that wonderful taste of raw sugar, having tasted it in a South African sugar mill. If you think what you buy in the US as "raw sugar" even closely resembles real raw sugar you would be incorrect. I mean we do have health laws here or is it market control? Yes. Dutch beers are brewed differently for the export market. Stella Artois tastes differently in France than it does in Germany. I mean, even Guinness is brewed differently in the tropics than it is in Ireland and has been for decades. Rod Prather provides a recipe for "coke" and asks me to reveal the ingredients of the original Coca Cola recipe. Don't you remember all those stories about only two people knowing the recipe and the original formula being kept in a safe and all that? Well, if I could reveal them, I'd be in business making Coke. Imagine how complex your recipe would taste if all natural ingredients were used as a source of the oils instead of the chemical equivalents cooked up in a factory. And if the sugar you used was real raw un-recrystallized sugar and not pure sugar to which molasses had been added. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:52:37 -0500 From: Chad Bohl <spilikin at comcast.net> Subject: Turbid vs. Decoction step mash Greetings! I've just read an article in a Brewing Techniques mag (May-August 1997) by Jim Liddil titled, 'Practical Strategies for Brewing Lambic at Home.' There is a table on p.28 that states, "turbid mashing is similar to decoction, except that it involves removing and boiling liquid (rather than grain) portions of the mash," and "turbid mashing results in large amounts of unconverted starch in the finished wort." But it's my understanding that when turbid mashing, one would remove some portion of the turbid mash liquid to boil and set aside, and add water to bring the mash up to the next rest temperature. Finally, one add the total boiled turbid runnings back to the mash to bring it to saccharification. OK, on to my process... when step mashing, I've either added boiling water to the mash to raise the temp or remove some mash liquid, boil, and add that back to bring the mash to the next step. I never liked the former because I run out of mash tun space before I can get to saccharification, and subsequently, mashout. I like to use the latter but until now I believed this to be more of a decoction mash So my questions are as follows and I hope someone can enlighten me: 1) Am I correct in my description of the turbid mashing technique? 2) Am I performing a turbid (or mash or a decoction mash when I remove mash liquid, boil, and then immediately add back to bring to the next step, or would this be a sort of hybrid combination of the two? 3) If a decoction mash always involves removing mash liquor AND grains, why would you want to boil the grains? Wouldn't you leech unwanted tannins from the husks similar to sparging too hot? - Chad in Minneapolis, MN Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com> Subject: coke taste and smell It appears that the cane sugar vs. corn syrup in the bottling may be a major factor. In Mexico they use the cane, and it seems to make a difference. Here's an article on it: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041109/news_1b9mexcoke.html Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:06:58 -0400 From: David Scheidt <dscheidt at panix.com> Subject: coke flavors Roger Burns wrote: > > > My guess is that the chemicals used to make Coke here are the same as > used to make Coke elsewhere, but freshness from a delivery standpoint > might leave more volatile flavors intact. It's the reason why I drink > Coke from cans, versus plastic bottles. It tastes spicier to me. When > I can find Coke in glass, it's even better. I'd be surprised if the > recipe was different for the different bottlers, and bottling types, as > opposed to freshness or oxygen degradation. There's variation in Coca-Cola from different areas. The big difference, both geographically and temporally, is what's used to sweeten the stuff. In the US, it used to be cane sugar, and is now almost entirely high-fructose corn syrup. Different sugars taste different in and of themselves, but there are also changes in other ingredients as a result. As I understand it, the phosphoric acid needs different amounts of different sugars to have the right bitterness to sweetness ratio. And the different amounts of phosphoric acid change the solubility of carbon dioxide, which in addition to having effect on the numbers of bubbles and the mouthfeel, also changes how sweet stuff is perceived as. (Flat coke is unbearably sweet to me, while with bubbles, it's not too bad.) Coke's flavoring, other than sugar and phosphoric acid, are oils of citris fruits (Lemon, then lime, and then oranage, I think), oil of nutmeg, oil of cinnamon, and of course cola. David Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:15:37 -0400 From: "larry maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net> Subject: Coke Living here in Atlanta about a quarter of a mile from the Coca-Cola Headquarters buildings and in fact looking out my window at them now as I type, and knowing people who work there, and with their museum, "The World of Coca-Cola," being less than a mile from here, I'd like to say I have inside info on the formulation, but of course I do not. Sometimes, when I run past the facility, I can smell that distinctive Coke smell--highly concentrated--coming from a building that I have to believe is an R&D lab. They don't do any manufacturing there as far as I know. Although much is now publicly known about the ingredients in Coke, they make a big deal how it's still perhaps the world's most closely-guarded trade secret, and the official formulation is still locked away in a vault in the Sun Trust bank building here. Whatever. I suppose we can all Google info about Coke and learn a lot, but perhaps what Dave was getting at was that there still may be regional variations, depending on what's available at what price. For example, I suspect that while high-fructose corn syrup is what's used in the US and elsewhere in the world where corn products are economical, in parts of Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., they may use beet sugar. I really don't know, but that's certainly plausible. My guess is that the concentrated oil mixtures and super-secret what-not are shipped to regional facilities around the world from some centralized manufacturing facility, mixed with sugar, phosphoric acid and whatever other (locally sourced) bulk materials are used to make the syrup, and then the syrup is sent to the local bottling plants to be mixed with the carbonated water and bottled. There are so many varieties of Coke now, it's past confusing: Coke Classic (full sugar), Diet Coke and Coke Zero (both with aspartame sweetener), Coke with Nutra-Sweet (I don't recall the brand name, if any), Vanilla Coke, Cherry Coke, Coke with Lime .... There are probably more. I've lost track. Larry Atlanta, Georgia, USA Return to table of contents
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