---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Siphoning: the last word (?) (Dave Rose)
  Re: Wy dyd my Wyeast wyther? (Douglas DeMers)
  Re: MS-DOS, Dry vs Wet yeasts (larryba)
  Green Bottles, One Last Time (Tom Strasser)
  mistake (florianb)
  hangovers (florianb)
  Homebrew Digest ("JEREMIAH J BUDZIK")
  Hello from a beginner ("MR. FANTASY")
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  chillproofing technique question (Don McDaniel)
  TV, Garlic and Cilantro (and Chiles) (TSAMSEL)
  blonde double bock (dave ballard)
  Wort Chillers (Steve Lamont)
  hook norton best bitter (Tony Babinec)
  Canning Wort ("William F. Pemberton")
  BEERREC.RFT ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  Miscellaneous (wbt)
  Chilling Videos
  beer for the woods
  orval,cloves,good beer,K (Russ Gelinas)
  Portland pubs? (Chris Shenton)
  The last word on syphons (?) (Dave Rose)
  Honey Priming, Rats (Norm Pyle)
  Re: weizen recipes (Chris Shenton)
  Potassium used as water hardener? (Al Richer)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #753 (November 01, 1991) (WHADDAAYAAT?)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1991 13:08 EST
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Siphoning: the last word (?)

	In HBD 757 (I think) Mike Ligas writes:

>I'd be quite surprised Dave if you use unplugged sterile pipettes to
>dispense your yeast. The fibrous plug found in the top of culturing pipettes
>is tightly packed and adsorbant enough to stop potential microbial 
>contamination carried by microscopic particles dispelled with each
>humid breath.

	Though I am reluctant to continue what is essentially a very boring
thread, I do not use plugged pipettes.  They are just open, sterile, glass
pipettes.  

>If you've ever done animal cell culture or bacterial culture using
>media much richer than liquid malt or malt/agar you'd know, from painful
>experience, that breath is not sterile.  

	It is true that I havent done cell culture work in some time, but
I don't think the result would be any different.  Cell culture work is tough
because the generation times of the cells are so long that fast growing
organisms can easily take over the culture; I don't think it has much to
do with the culture media.  The media we use in the lab is a good deal 
richer than liquid malt.  It's yeast extract, peptone, and glucose as a 
carbon source.  Granted I have not performed the experiment with fetal calf
serum or some other cell culture medium, but I doubt I would get a different
result.

	Anyway, we both agree (I think) on the important aspect of this issue:
That in wort the technique is safe.  Whether that's because breath is sterile
or because what critters it contains are present in very low titer or can't
grow in wort isn't really the issue.

	I'm also happy to note that the 'm' word is taking it's knocks out
there.  But I am also concerned that "your mileage may vary" is rapidly
taking it's place as annoying phraseology of the moment....
						Dave Rose
					CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 11:10 PST
From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers)
Subject: Re: Wy dyd my Wyeast wyther?

In Homebrew Digest #757 (November 07, 1991) Richard Stueven
(Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM) responds to a query in Homebrew Digest
#756 by Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>:
J>>Subject: Re: Wy dyd my Wyeast wyther?

J>>This is my first encounter with Wyeast, it hasn't gone well!
J>>My Wyeast has not started to show signs of fermentation yet, after
J>>about 55 hours as of this morning. [...]

J>>One thing in the instructions that I didn't do was aerate the wort
J>>after pitching. It didn't seem all that important.

R>Yow!  It's Very Important!  You can get good results without aerating
R>(although you didn't this time), but if you want your yeast to really
R>take off, aeration makes all the difference. [...]

I thought "someone else" would address the question, which I think was
missed by Richard.  That is, liquid yeast, even when properly
activated, does not supply sufficient quantities of active yeast for a
vigorous start to fermentation of a 5 gallon batch.  Certainly,
aeration _is_ important, but I think this is secondary to creating a
"sufficient" quantity of active starter.

J>>  [... from #756]    But, by this time, the package was filled with
J>>lots of gas -- like, I was half expecting it to splatter all over the
J>>room when I opened it up. (It didn't.) So I dribbled the yeast into my
J>>carboy.

Creating a "sufficient" quantity of active starter has been recommended
by other contributors in HBD;  in Miller's book, and it might even be
on the Wyeast package.  Otherwise, you'll experience long lag times.
Jacob, I'll bet by now your fermentation has taken off.

Here's what I do for building the starter solution:

About five days before I intend to brew, I pop the inner "bubble" inside
the Wyeast package, and set it aside on the counter in my kitchen.  A
couple of days later when the packet is swollen, I sanitize a 12 oz beer
bottle and fermentation lock and beer-bottle-size stopper.  I open my
jar of "canned starter wort" (a la Miller) and measure about 3/4 of a
beer bottle (_NOT_ with the sanitized one!) into a covered saucepan.  I
bring this wort to a boil and simmer for 20 minutes.  I do this because
I can my starter wort in quart jars and keep the opened jars
refrigerated.  Some people rehydrate dried malt extract instead of
using "canned starter";  I'm told that works just fine, too.

The covered saucepan goes into the freezer to cool down to ~80-90
degrees F.  I flame the mouth of the sanitized beer bottle (with a
propane torch, but only briefly!) and pour the cooled wort into the
bottle.  The swollen liquid yeast packet is swabbed with alcohol, and
the scissors run through the flame of the propane torch.  I shake the
packet and then snip off one of the upper corners.  The contents are
carefully poured into the sanitized beer bottle, and the fermentation
lock placed on the bottle.  The bottle is then agitated (to aerate) and
set aside.

In a day or so when active fermentation is observed, I sanitize a 22 oz
beer bottle;  boil/cool another ~3/4 of a 12 oz beer bottle's worth of
starter;  flame the mouth of the 22 oz beer bottle and pour the cooled
wort into the 22 oz bottle and agitate to aerate.  The 12 oz bottle of
already-fermenting starter is poured into the 22 oz beer bottle, and
the fermentation lock placed on the larger bottle.  A day or so later,
I've got a pint of vigorous starter, suitable for pitching.

Some people recommend making even greater quantities, like a quart
(another day to double from a pint) or even a half-gallon (doubled
again).  I once did a half-gallon starter, and the fermentation took
off like a shot!  Even with a low starting gravity 5 gallon batch in a
6.5 gallon carboy, I had significant blowoff through the blowoff tube!
For all practical purposes, fermentation was complete within 24 hours!
__
Douglas DeMers,      | (408-746-8546) | dougd at uts.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corporation   |                | {sun,uunet}!amdahl!dougd

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Date: Thu Nov 07 09:16:21 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: MS-DOS, Dry vs Wet yeasts

Kinney Baughman writes:

    Hey, Darryl, you radical!  You've gone from "Eunuchs" to Microsoft and
    MSDOS!!!  My how the mighty have fallen!  Is there any hope left for
    us all?  Where is the truth?  What is realty?

Gosh, a good old fashion unix bigot!  While all you guys toodle around on
the Packards and Edsle's of OS's, Microsoft is cleaning up making fords!
Can 10 million Windows users all be wrong? ;=)

Tee, hee.  Couldn't resist.

Regarding dry vs wet yeasts.  I notice that in the Zymurgy yeast issue
one manufacture of dry yeast got pretty darn high marks for yeast quality -
even better than *most* of the wet yeasts tested (not many).  That was
Whitbread Ale and Lager yeast.  I have been using the ale exclusively for
the last year with good results.  Certainly there has not been any defects
that could be obviously traced to the yeast variety.  Even recycling the
yeast several times produced excellent results.  Now that is cheap yeast!

My latest lager was jumped started with a packet of Whitbread Lager.  I was
pretty nervous since I have always used "Official Wet Lager Yeast" in the
past.  However, it appears to have turned out Ok.  It looks, tastes and
smells like a lager.

It is my opinion that unless one is a Very Refined Super Duper Brewer
that the whitbread yeast can take one pretty far down the road to perfect
beer.  It is cheap, it is Vigorus, it is clean and as Father Barleywine noted
the Ale will ferment in lager temps producing lager like beers.

My guess is that having a large amount of viable yeast prevents a whole rash
of other problems that get introduced when underpitching wet yeast. Yeah, I
know a starter is the right thing to do, but sometimes it just doesn't work
out correctly and one still gets the 48-72 hour lag period.  In my experience
that never happens with a packet of whitbread.

Cheers!



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 15:00:13 EST
From: strasser at raj3.tn.cornell.edu (Tom Strasser)
Subject: Green Bottles, One Last Time


> From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (The Hop Devil)
> Subject: Skunks sighted at 520 nanometers!, AHA competitions, metabolism of ethanol
> 
> Stroud wants to know about the specific 520nm light damage done to beer,
> Boy, did I have to dig around to find where I got that from!
> I would welcome references to something newer (it may have been
> posted recently but mail has been sporatic), but I got my info
> partly from Michael Tierney, a Ph.D. chemist and homebrewer, who
> wrote an article about the chemical reaction in Zymurgy vol 12, no 3
> 1989.  The information may be dated, and I would like to be current!
> If I can get enough info to interlibrary loan new articles please
> let me mail me. You mentioned 400-500nm, gee I was only out of range
> by 20 nanometers!  
	Just to clarify this a bit, it is really sub-500 nm light which
is of concern here.  The 400 nm limit was somewhat artificially placed
on this issue by the measurement range of my equipment.  Note that the
lower the wavelength is from 500 nm, the more efficient it will be in
lightstriking beer, with the most efficient damage taking place in the
UV.  As I've stated this damage may occur up to 520 nm, but is unlikely
to take place very efficiently here. 
	Another reason the 400-500 nm range was singled out by me was 
that it is the light which is most likely to effect even the most careful
homebrewer (or retailer) because incandescent lights have significant
intensity at these wavelengths (not to mention the more harmful
flourescent, sunlight sources).  Therefore, if you have the choice, I
recommend you keep your beer in brown bottles, especially for
competitions where you don't know for sure how they'll be stored.  And
yes, I do have green bottles which I use on occasion :-).

 
> From: Darrylri
> 
> Well, that *is* pretty nervous ;-).  I guess I've not made myself clear,
> and I'm sorry about that.  From the point of view of the brewer, it makes
> sense to protect their beer as well as is necessary with their methods.
> For homebrewers, this may not require the use of dark brown bottles, since
> they (often) know better.  For a commercial brewer bottle color may not
> matter at all since ignorant retailers (by far the majority) can hurt
> them regardless.
> 
> But, from the point of view of the taster/judge, bottle color makes no
> difference, since a clear bottle may contain perfectly fine beer, and the
> darkest brown bottle may contain skunk juice.  I take as my starting
> point that commercial beer will be skunky if I don't know how it was
> treated, and that homebrew will not (since there is a "real" person
> behind it who would do their best not to hurt it).  I also wanted to
> make the point, since I've heard about judges who automatically assume that
> beer in a green bottle is of lower quality than brown (and more than once),
> that that is an outrageous and unwarranted assumption.
	I wholeheartedly agree that bottle color should not prejudice a
judge on the merits of a beer in competition.  I definitely do my best
not to think about such thinks when judging, and to concentrate on what
I'm tasting.  I do think that as far as the normal homebrewer is
concerned, this statement is clouding the issue of bottle color.  What I
tried to show in my previous submission was that brown bottles are
definitely more resistant to the lightstruck flaw than green or
clear bottles.  This had not been previously proven, at least to me.  In
addition, however, I stated that brown bottles are not the answer to the
problem, as Dave's submission indicated:
> 
> From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
> 
> Hey now-  I just wanted to add my $.02 on light damage and skunkiness
> 
> Anyway, I check out the judges sheets after the contest and their only 
> real complaint was skunkiness.  Now, I had a bottle of the stuff on the 
> night of 11/1 and it was anything but skunky.  I cracked open a left-over
> bottle at the competition and sure enough it smelled/tasted like Pepe le
> Peu's bathwater!  All I can figure out is this-  when I dropped my 
> three bottles off at Greg Zaccardi's (who did a great job organizing
> by the way), we were standing around bs-ing for like 10 or 15 minutes and
> the bottled were in the sun.  The were brown Whitbred bottles, really thick.

What is important to keep track of here is that Dave's entries
would have definitely been worse if he had used green or clear bottles,
and that is true regardless of whether you believe the <500 nm or the
520 nm camps (I've already put my word in on that one).  I just felt it
was very important to stress this as the most important point of
this lightstruck discussion from a practical standpoint, and I didn't
want it to get lost in all this other discussion. 
> 
> From: darrylri
> > Gary Mason writes:
> > > Darryl - do you use this (type of) info in your Macintosh product-to-be?
> > 
> > It's a bit early yet to speak of product (that is to say, I'm not done yet,
> > and as has been pointed out on CompuServe, that makes me just another
> > vendor of vapor;  sigh), but I have incorporated Rager's algorithm (with
> > some minor modification) into my code base.  (He gets a mention in my
> > manual's bibliography.)
So Darryl (or whoever), while we're on the subject, what do you think of Rager's
vs. Burch's kettle hop utilization numbers?  From personal results, I'm in
Burch's corner on this one.  For those unfamiliar, these two
sources vary considerably in the 25 to 45 minute boiling time regime.
While these numbers are approximations which will vary from batch to
batch, we the homebrewers have to start with a number somewhere, and then
adjust our results accordingly.

and...
> > From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
> > 
> > And please, let's don't ever say "m_m__y" again.  It's a stupid word 
> > and besides, my Mom wouldn't even think of making beer!
Amen!

Tschuss,
Tom Strasser...strasser at raj5.tn.cornell.edu...strasser at crnlmsc3.bitnet


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 12:12:03 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: mistake

The wording in my previous message should have been:

	"Some German beers I consumed in Germany"

and,

	"Most German beers I consumed while in Germany"


Florian


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 12:09:27 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: hangovers

Yesterday,  MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA> said, in part,

>From my simple understanding of the phenomenon, the main culprit is dehydration
>with some credit going to vasodilation in the skull. Both alcohol and fusels
>along with some amines are the cause. The liver, that wonderful detoxification

Comments well-taken.  The trouble I have with this theory is that it
doesn't explain the correlation to types or brands of beer.  Below is
a list of beers that give me a headache:

	Nearly all brands of US beer.
	Some German beers consumed in Germany.
	Any and all bottled or fresh microbrewed beer.

Below is a list of beers that have never given me a headache regardless
of quantity consumed:

	My home-brewed beer.
	A certain beer brewed commercially right here in Oregon
		and costing very little per 1/2 case.
	Most German beers comsumed in Germany.

To me this continues to be the greatest mystery about beer and home
brewing in particular.  Someday, I hope someone will explain this to me.

Florian


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Date: 7 Nov 91 15:39:00 EST
From: "JEREMIAH J BUDZIK" <BUDZIK at vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Digest

Hi,
	A friend of mine recently informed me of the 'Homebrew Digest' and sent
me a copy.  I've found it quite interesting and would like to be put on the
distribution list if at all possible.  My address is 'budzik at vax001.kenyon.edu'

Thank you for your time.

			--J. Budzik


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1991 15:56 EST
From: "MR. FANTASY" <HOPKINSCH at urvax.urich.edu>
Subject: Hello from a beginner


Hello!  I just wanted to drop a quick Email to give my greetings and
thank you all for some wonderful reading.  I have only been reading this
digest for about 5 days and have found my interest peaked.  I have never
tried to brew before but the idea is appealing (which is why I read this...).

	I have seen those beginning kits that is basically a big bag that
one fills with water (I assume) and lets it ferment for awhile.  I think
they may require a bit more care than that but I not sure.  Nonetheless,
is this an easy place to start?  Do they work?  I think those sorts of
kits start around $30 and, as I'm a college student, I don't want to be
dropping $30 on something that won't work (hey, who would?).

	Any help appreciated.

Christopher
HOPKINSCH at URVAX.URICH.EDU

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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 16:03 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
 Subject: Homebrew Popularity & Cloviness
 
 > My observation is that the growth in interest in micro-brewed beers and 
 homebrewing is verystrong. Of course these are my observations here in 
 Beantown (and a few other areas I've traveled to, your mileage may vary..)
 
 I don't doubt your observation but considering that there is one (maybe two) 
 microbreweries in the entire Chicago Met area, it is obvious we are behind 
 the times here.
 
 >Jack I'm not sure what to make of this reply, I think you may have
 misunderstood. The cloviness comes from the YEAST  not the wheat malt...,
 
 Well, I do not have the original but I could have sworn that the clove was 
 connected to wheat.  I have made mistake before....
 
 
 >Red Star Ale, which you said you used to use until recently if I read this 
 right
 
 ,
 (which I stopped using long ago after a friend got the banana beer that 
 tasted more like bananas than bananas do..) is reputed to produce clove 
 flavors under certain fermentation conditions (I don't know what these are 
 supposed to be).
 
 Neither do I, those are not my words you are quoting.
 
 From: larryba at microsoft.com
 
 >  I don't necessarily think that you will detect oxidation in your 
 "mishandled" beer.  Why?
 
 >Because it is my belief that if you have
 active yeast in your beer, oxidation may not be an issue.  Beer that
 is primed and bottled has live yeast in it.  Live yeast is very
 reductive (?) and chews up the oxygen + reduces the oxidized
 components.  I have heard that damaged beer can be revived by adding
 fresh wort, yeast and letting it re-ferment. I think that is what
 happens for many home brews: they are harsh at first (green?) and
 then as they age they mellow out.  I think it is the yeast doing it's
 magic. Comment, Dave Rose, George Fix?
 
 This is great.  You start out by boinking me for being a boor then procede to 
 layout an excellent hypothesis which supports my momily that started the 
 whole discussion.  To wit, a little splashing, foam or air in the headspace 
 is not necessarily going to wreck home brew.
 
 >The point is that you may well be right that oxidation is not an
 issue for homebrews if the air infiltration is not grotesque and
 there is a secondary ferment in the bottle.
 
 Do I hear an echo?
 
 >  It probably depends upon the gestalt of your brewing setup. 
 
 Not sure how to transmit gestalt on a video tape but I think we finally have 
 a resolution to the issue.
 
 From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
 
 >Jack Schmidling (arf at ddsw1.mcs.com) writes:
 
 >                 TO BLOW OR NOT TO BLOW (OUT)
 >
 >I have been entranced with the idea of "blow out" primary fermentation and
 >had to give it a whirl.    The following are my observations on the
 >procedure.....(discoveries/observations using plastic tub deleted)...
 
 <Jack, most of us who use "blow-off" methodologies do so using a 5
 gallon carboy as the primary fermentation vessel.  The benefits are
 closed fermentation and removal of crap with reduced risk of infection.
 
 Not sure of your point.  I used one also in the experiment which you deleted 
 and seem to have misread.
 
 >You'd mentioned earlier (in rec.crafts.brewing) that you've been losing
 two out of ten batches to contamination.  It may be possible that your
 open fermentation and/or skim technique may be contributing to this.
 
 Certainly possible, but you guys just got me sold on changing yeast.   I take 
 great pains when skimming to maintain near sterile conditions so I highly 
 suspect an external influence and yeast fits the bill, for the present.
 
 >I used to use a 7.5 gallon plastic tub, and skim, and had similar
 problems, no matter how careful I was with sanitation.  I switched to
 a closed fermentation technique some years ago and haven't had an
 infection since.
 
 It is poor science to change more than one variable at a time and I am
 working on yeast now.  When/if I get a bad batch with the new yeast, I will 
 take the next step.
 
 I don't even want to think of the possibility of THIS batch going bad.  New 
 yeast, blow out in glass fermenter.
 
 From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
 Subject: Re: Brew Video
 
 >>Doesn't the AHA have a video on homebrewing for beginners, staring all your
 >>favorite (:-) stars, like Papazian, et al?
 >
 >It's called "Home Brew with Charlie Papazian", and it's available for
 >$29.95.  I'll send the complete text of the blurb along with ordering
 >instructions to all who inquire via email.
 >
 >I have no association with the producers or distributors of this
 >product other than as a fellow AHA member.
 
 >I should add that I have not seen the video...only the ad in _zymurgy_.
 
 >gak
 
 I will also be happy to email info on "BREW IT AT HOME" along with a special 
 offer to HBD readers.  Pssst.... it's half the price of Papazian's and much 
 more interesting.
 
       ....       COMMERCIAL DISCLAIMER      ......
 
 This is not being typed by Jack Schmidling, I am a neighbor who has no 
 financial interest in JSP but I DID SEE the video and it's GREAT.  I can't 
 wait to start my first batch.
 
 js
 

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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 21:03:41 -0700
From: dinsdale at chtm.eece.unm.edu (Don McDaniel)
Subject: chillproofing technique question

I've gotten to the point where I'm happy with the flavor of my brews and
I'm working on appearance; more specifically chillproofing.  I've had
consistent chill haze in most of my beers.  I plan to use Irish moss
in the boil for the next ale this weekend.  Question:

Irish moss is traditional in the brewing of ales.  What of its use in
lagers?

Another question:  I've got a Dortmunder export in the secondary right
now.  It's been there for about tem days and it's still very cloudy.
Should it refuse to clear, I am considering using gelatin finings.  My
concern is that gelatin is known to precipitate yeast.  Should I
anticipate any problem with having enough yeast to bottle condition 
after gelatin fining?

As a final aside, Miller says that oxidation during sparging can
contribute to chill haze and recommends finding a sparging method
that minimizes splashing.  I myself use a two-quart pitcher to
transfer sparge water into my lauter tun.  This does involve 
considerable splashing.  Any comments on the relative contribution
of sparge splashing to chill haze?  What about ideas for splash-free
sparging in a 5-gallon food bucket lauter tun?  I tend to think that
splashing at this point isn't too critical because 1) the water and
wort are at 168F or less and hence not as reactive as boiling wort,
and 2) any O2 dissolved into the wort at this point that hasn't
reacted may be driven off during the subsequent boil.

Any Ideas are appreciated.

Don McDaniel
Albuquerque


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Date:    Fri, 8 Nov 1991 8:17:01 -0500 (EST)
From: TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV
Subject: TV, Garlic and Cilantro (and Chiles)

Would some kind soul keep us informed of the play dates/times on the Discovery
Channel for the "BEER HUNTER"?
  Also, garlic and chiles do keep away pestiferous arthropodal fauna.
  And the lower stem of cilantro is more "root" flavored than the leaf. I use
it for Thai curry.
  (Cooking note: if you have been knocking back a few homebrewss and are
going to BBQ or make oriental food, use the dregs as a marinade base or 
add as fluid to the stirfry)
  Ted

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Date:  8 Nov 1991   8:04 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: blonde double bock


Hey now-  I finally ventured across the river from Piscataway to New
Brunswick to check out a place called The Old Bay.  They have amazing
New Orleans style food as well as Clements and Stoudts on tap.  We
chatted with the bartender and managed to get samples of a pilsner
and ale from Stoudts and a red ale from Clements (the best of the 
three).  He then brought over a glass and announced it was something 
new from Clements- a blonde double bock.  It was a beautiful gold color
with a really nice head, and lots of chill haze.  It tasted great! Real
nice hop/malt balance, leaning towards malt with a definite alcohol
twang (it's about 9% by volume).  For those of you around central NJ,
you gotta give it a try.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to make a blonde double bock?  I would
assume there's a ton pf pale malt to start with, due to the color and 
haze.  I would definitely like to give it a try.

Oh yeah, the line of the night had to be when the bartender asks: "You 
guys aren't by any chance homebrewers, are you?"  That got quite a chuckle...

later!
dab


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 06:23:56 PST
From: spl at dim.UCSD.EDU (Steve Lamont)
Subject: Wort Chillers

JackS sez:
> I received a flyer in the mail from The Home Brewery claiming that their 
> emersion chiller will chill 5 gallons to pitching temp in 15 min.  It looks 
> like about 7 turns of 1/4 copper tubing.  This seems utterly preposterous.  
> Can someone save me the trouble of proving it.

Works for me -- in fact, I'd say that 15 minutes is a trifle long.

> If you are so obsessed with beating me down by making my words "nonwords", I 
> suggest you at least improve on them.. Did you every "say" OWT?  There are 
> five syllables in it compared to three in momily.  Try a little harder.

Oh, give it a rest, will ya.

							spl
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl at dim.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Great is the Battle-God, great, and his Kingdom --
A field where a thousand corpses lie." - Stephen Crane, Do not weep, maiden...

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 9:08:30 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: hook norton best bitter

I found a copy of Roger Protz's "The Real Ale Drinker's Almanac" in a
Chicago bookstore.  It's definitely a nice-to-have if you enjoy
bitters and pale ales and want to brew them.  Here's what he says
about Hook Norton Best Bitter.

Original Gravity:  1036
Alcohol by Volume:  3.3%

Ingredients:  Maris Otter pale malt 94%
              flaked maize           6%
              caramel for coloring
              Fuggles, Goldings, and Challenger whole hops

Tasting notes:

Nose--pronounced hop resin aroma with grain and fruit developing
Palate--Light dry balance of grain and hop with delicate finish and
        some citric fruit notes
Comments--A distinctive pale bitter with some light fruit complexity.

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Date:     Fri Nov  8 10:16:41 1991
From: "William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject:  Canning Wort

Some people e-mailed me requesting more info on my canning procedure, so
I figured I'd post it to the digest.  Sorry I've taken so long to do
this.

The main thing I use the canning for is making priming solutions.  I
also sometimes use it to make pre-prepared starters.

To make a priming solution I added whatever amount (I usually use around
1 cup) of dry malt extract to 1 qt canning jars and then fill the jars
with hot water.  Put the lids on the jars and shake to mix up the
extract.  The extract doesn't need to be completely dissolved, the
canning will take care of things.

Put the jars and some water in the pressure cooker, close it up, and
start heating.  If you have the type with a weight that controls
pressure, leave it off until steam has been to escaping for about 10
minutes.

Put on the weight and monitor the pressure.  When it hits 15 lbs, start
your timer.  Depending on your stove, you may have to cut back on the
heat to keep the pressure from rising.

After 15 minutes, turn off the stove and let the cooker cool.  When it
is cool, take the jars out and put them somewhere to cool further.  Try
to avoid drafty places!

To prime with this stuff, just wipe the top of the jar with some
sterilant, open the jar, and pour!

That's about it, it really can't be much easier.  I realize that
pressure canning is a bit overboard, from what I understand you really
don't need to cook at 15 lbs for 15 minutes to kill the things that
might get into your beer (they die much easier).  BUT I don't think this
a real hassle and I relax better knowing that there ain't nothing going
to live in there.

Bill

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 15:07 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: BEERREC.RFT



     Date: 08-Nov-91      Time: 10:07 AM       Msg: EXT02204

          Hi folks,
          here are the recipes for food made with beer that I promised about 2
          weeks ago. Sorry it took so long, I had to take a trip to Kansas City.
          This was in a Gannett Westchester Co. NY newspaper. By the way, I had
          Boulevard Beer (a pale ale I think) in KC. It was nice with lots of
          hops (at least I think so; my palate is not yet truly educated.)


             A cold beer in a frosty mug is the perfect drink for a hot summer's
          day. But beer does not only have to be a quick thirst-quencher, it can
          (and should) be savored for its aroma, and because of its aroma, it
          can also successfully be used in cooking. Beer dishes such as the
          meatball and the vegetable recipe that follows taste particularly good
          in chillier weather. A warming bowl of spinach and beer soup with
          Cheddar cheese and a bit of sausage, accompanied by a thick slice of
          fresh whole grain bread, makes a meal. If you have the time, you could
          serve the garlic/zucchini fritters with the soup. They make excellent
          hors d'oeuvres or snacks as well. It is one of my prize recipes. Serve
          them freshly made when they are hot and crispy.
            Just as in cooking with wine: the better the beer, the better the
          dish. I have indicated some of the brands appropriate for a particular
          recipe. Each brand will impart its own unique flavor. Try some of the
          beers from the micro-breweries now springing up all over the country.

          Mother's meatballs with beer

          Preparation time: about 10 minutes
          Cooking time: about 20 minutes

          1 thick slice bread, crusts removed
          2 tablespoons milk or water
          1 pound lean ground beef, or meatloaf mixture of beef/veal/pork
          1 egg
          2 tablespoons minced onion
          1 teaspoon salt, or less
          Freshly ground black pepper
          1/4 teaspoon freshly grated nutmeg
          Butter or margarine for frying
          2 cups Heineken or similar beer, at room temperature

             Soak the bread in the milk or water and squeeze dry. Stir or knead
          into the meat together with the egg,onion and spices. Form into four
          balls. Heat the butter or margarine, and brown the meatballs on all
          sides. Pour in 1 cup of the beer. Bring to a boil, turn down the heat
          and cover the pan. Simmer for about 15 minutes. Check to see that it
          does not cook dry and add more beer when needed. Serve as is, or
          thicken the sauce with cornstarch, if desired.

          Cabbage saute with beer

          Preparation time: about 10 minutes
          Cooking time: 10 minutes

          3 tablespoons butter, margarine or oil
          4 cups shredded or finely cut green cabbage
          3 large carrots, peeled and coarsely grated
          1 tablespoon flour
          Salt and sugar to taste
          4 ounces Bass ale or similar beer

             Heat the butter, margarine, or oil and saute the cabbage and
          carrots for ffve minutes in the butter, stirring frequently. Sprinkle
          with flour, salt and a little sugar. Mix and stir in the beer. Cover
          and cook for 5 minutes over low heat.

          Peter's beer soup with spinach, cheese and sausage

          Preparation time: about 15-2 minutes

          Cooking time: 15 minutes

          1/2 pound breakfast sausage, not Italian sausage
          1-2 tablespoons vegetable oil
          1 pound fresh spinach, washed and coarsely chopped
          4 scallions, finely chopped
          l/4 cup flour
          2 cups skim milk
          1 cup or more full-bodied beer, such as Heineken, Grolsch, Molson
          8 ounces of grated Cheddar cheese
          Salt and freshly ground pepper to taste

             Cut the sausage into small slices or pieces and brown in a pan,
          large enough to hold the soup. Drain and set sausage aside. Heat the
          oil. Add the scallions and cook for 3 minutes, then add the chopped
          spinach. Cook and stir until the spinach is wilted. Add the sausage.
          Sprinkle the mixture with the flour. Slowly add--while stirring--the
          skim milk. If you need to hold the soup, prepare it up to this point.
          When ready to serve add the beer. Bring to a boil. Add the cheese.
          Cook until melted. Taste and season with salt and pepper. Serve
          immediately.

          Garlie zucchini fritters made with a beer batter

          Preparation time: 5 minutes, standing time about 20-30 minutes

          Cooking time: 3-5 minutes

          1 cup self-rising flour
          6-7 ounces of beer such as Budweiser
          2 or 3 small zucchini, approximately 3/4 cup when cut as directed
          1 large, or 2 smaller, cloves of garlic, minced
          2 heaping tablespoons minced fresh chives OR finely minced scallions
          with green parts
          1/4 teaspoon salt
          Freshly ground pepper
          Vegetable oil for frying

             Cut the zucchini into 6 strips lengthwise and cut them across into
          thin slivers. Combine the flour and beer into a smooth thick paste.
          Add the zucchini, chives or scallions, garlic, salt, lots of freshly
          ground pepper and combine. It will seem barely enough to cover the
          zucchini pieces. Let it stand to rise for about 20-30 minutes. After
          it stands, if the batter is too thick add a little more beer, if too
          thin add a little more flour. Heat some oil in a saucepan or deep
          fryer (or better yet a wok) to about 340 F. Scoop out a tablespoon of
          batter and push it off the spoon with the aid of another spoon and let
          it carefully drop into the hot oil. Turn to fry golden on both sides.
          Remove and drain on paper towels. Continue until all batter is used.
          Keep them hot in an oven set at 300 F. if necessary. They can also
          briefly be reheated in the microwave. They are best served
          immediately.

             Peter G. Rose is a free-lance writer who lives in South Salem.
          Inquiries may be sent to her in care of the Lifestyles Department,
          Gannett Suburban Newspapers, 1 Gannett Drive, White Plains, N.Y.
          10604.


          Lee Katman - Thirteen/WNET - New York, NY
          katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com



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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 10:18:48 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Miscellaneous

Subject: Chilling Videos

Jack Schmidling wrote:

>  I received a flyer in the mail from The Home Brewery claiming that their 
>  emersion chiller will chill 5 gallons to pitching temp in 15 min.  It looks 
>  like about 7 turns of 1/4 copper tubing.  This seems utterly preposterous.  
>  Can someone save me the trouble of proving it.

Heck, you wouldn't take our word for it anyway, Jack.  Just declare it a
momily and be done with it...

>  From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
>  
>  >Yes, The AHA does have a video.....
>  
>  "Brew It Yourself" is a far more interesting video and at half the price to 
>  netters.  

Jack, I promise you that anyone you haven't alienated by your repeated
plugging of your products has now been alienated by this.  Your ignorance
of many elements of the brewing process has already made itself evident in
your postings, yet now you claim that your video is more interesting than that
put together by Charlie Papazian?

I've never met either of you, but I've read both your work.  From his
editorials in Zymurgy to his book to second-hand accounts of his antics,
it's obvious that Papazian is one heck of an interesting person.  I suppose
"interesting" applies to your writing as well, though I'd be more inclined 
to use "bizarre."

I have just one question.  In your video, do you include a plug for the
AHA?


  
 
Subject: beer for the woods
 
R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas) wrote:

> Anyway, garlic homebrew should make a great bug repellant (working 
> from the inside out).  A good way to check would be to make a batch in the 
> spring, drink 5 or 6, sit naked in the woods in June, and count up your black 
> fly bites. [...] Any volunteers?  }:-)

Sounds like a job for Martin Lodahl to me, judging by his .signature. 8-)

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date:    Fri, 8 Nov 1991 10:28:04 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: orval,cloves,good beer,K

 How's that for a descriptive subject line?

 Someone mentioned having an Orval dated 1990/2, and it was skunky.  I've
had 2 Orvals dated 1990/2, and both were bad (phenolic, medicinal), but
not skunky.  They did have that tremendous thick foamy head, though.

 Re. cloves: I pick up clove flavor in *all* German beer. The one beer I made 
with Wyeast German Ale (#1007?) had that same clove taste.  I can't drink
real wheat beer because of the cloves. Anyone else as sensitive to it as me?

 To the gloater: Goudenband?  Had one last night.  Fuller's ESB?  Got 3 of 'em
left in my cellar.  SS Stout?  Had a SS Imperial Stout a couple of days ago.
And there's still more in my collection from Yankee Spirits, but it's almost 
time to go back.....

 Re. hangovers: I've also heard that restoring potassium helps cure a hangover.
Bananas seem to help, as does tomato juice (hair-of-dog vodka is optional).

Russ G.

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 10:50:08 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Portland pubs?

Yeah, another request for beer joints. (That's Portland OR, not Maine).

I checked Schuster/Jackson last night, and he says Portland and Seattle are
beer meccas in the US. Help me out -- what are your favorite haunts?

Thanks...

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 11:00 EST
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: The last word on syphons (?)

	In HBD 757 (I think) Mike Ligas writes:

>I'd be quite surprised Dave if you use unplugged sterile pipettes to
>dispense your yeast. The fibrous plug found in the top of culturing pipettes
>is tightly packed and adsorbant enough to stop potential microbial 
>contamination carried by microscopic particles dispelled with each
>humid breath.

	Though I am reluctant to continue what is essentially a very boring
thread, I do not use plugged pipettes.  They are just open, sterile, glass
pipettes.  

>If you've ever done animal cell culture or bacterial culture using
>media much richer than liquid malt or malt/agar you'd know, from painful
>experience, that breath is not sterile.  

	It is true that I havent done cell culture work in some time, but
I don't think the result would be any different.  Cell culture work is tough
because the generation times of the cells are so long that fast growing
organisms can easily take over the culture; I don't think it has much to
do with the culture media.  The media we use in the lab is a good deal 
richer than liquid malt.  It's yeast extract, peptone, and glucose as a 
carbon source.  Granted I have not performed the experiment with fetal calf
serum or some other cell culture medium, but I doubt I would get a different
result.

	Anyway, we both agree (I think) on the important aspect of this issue:
That in wort the technique is safe.  Whether that's because breath is sterile
or because what critters it contains are present in very low titer or can't
grow in wort isn't really the issue.

	I'm also happy to note that the 'm' word is taking it's knocks out
there.  But I am also concerned that "your mileage may vary" is rapidly
taking it's place as annoying phraseology of the moment....
						Dave Rose
					CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU



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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 08:40:04 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Honey Priming, Rats

To Mike McNally:

You wrote that you don't see the point in priming with honey, because the
small amount will make no taste difference.  I agree; this is the same
principle that says people can prime with corn sugar, even though they
wouldn't normally use it in their brew.  The reason I primed my last batch
with honey is this:  I had cleaned and sterilized all of my bottles before I
realized I had no corn sugar, no dry malt, nothing.  It was table sugar or
honey or wait until I could get to the HB store.  The honey, to my tongue,
had no taste effect; it just gave me carbonation, as I desired.

To Curt Freeman:

Touche...  Now, does anyone have any real information on blowoff?  Maybe
Zymurgy or one of the oft-quoted HB Bibles gives something more than "...it's
really a personal preference...".  I used a blowoff tube for my first few
batches.  Then I got a 7 gal. carboy and commenced to just putting the f-lock
on top at the start of fermentation.  With 5 gal. batches, so far, there's
never been enough krausen to reach the f-lock, and I can't taste a difference
(rats *ss or otherwise).  BTW, I'm not a big stout man (I'm sort of medium
sized :0), but your recipe is intriguing...

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 11:20:21 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: weizen recipes

On Thu, 7 Nov 91 10:21:17 PST, klein at imasun.lbl.gov (Gregory Klein) said:

Gregory> Does anyone out there have a good recipe for a wheat beer
Gregory> resembling one of the good Munich weizens.  I'd like to try
Gregory> brewing one but if it's going to turn out like some of the
Gregory> American varieties I've tried, (eg. Anchor, Sam Adams, Grant's)
Gregory> then I'd rather not bother.

I now do all-grain, but did a *real* simple weizen a month back which got
raves from a friend who lived in Munich for 3 years, from my homebrew
club, and was quite favorably received by one who is a certified judge.

I'll try to reproduce the recipe from memory as best I can.  First, I
consulted Eckard (not him, his book -- *great* resource) to see what
hopping levels are appropriate for Bavarian style Weizens -- they are
pretty low -- and then cranked IBU's to ounces for Hallertauer and
Tettnanger at three boil times.  I can't remember them, so you'll have to
do this yourself, or write me direct and I'll scrounge up the actual
amounts I used.

Weizen-1 (for 11 gallons)

13.2#	American Classic wheat beer extract syrup (60% wheat, 40% barley)
?? oz	Hallertauer leaf (~ 5% alpha) 60 minutes
?? oz	Tettnanger leaf (~ 5% alpha) 30 minutes
?? oz	Hallertauer leaf (~ 5% alpha) 15 minutes
750 ml	Wyeast wheat beer culture
12 gal	Water

Boil the whole batch for 60 minutes, adding hops as specified.
Force cool.
Save 1 gallon for priming in fridge.
Split yeast between two carboys, then siphon beer in.
It fermented about 10 days at 60-70F
Primed with 1/2 gallon of the saved wort in each of 2 kegs, siphoned the
beer in and let sit for 3 weeks at ~60F. 

Sorry, I didn't take OG or FG readings.

Not as good as the beer from Schneiderweisskeller (Munich), but it had
the right clove aroma, a very slight tartness, and good body. Perhaps a bit
dark for style, but that's hard to avoid using extract.

I kegged a clone of it last night which had 50% more malt and hops; I used
Father Barleywine's yeast cake trick. Ummmm... getting thirsty thinking
about it.

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 11:23:07 EST
From: richer at ionic.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Al Richer)
Subject: Potassium used as water hardener?


 A friend recently gave me a 500-tablet bottle of potassium supplements. I
was wondering if I could use this stuff as a water hardener, considering the
price was right...8*)

 The contents of the tablets are:

 Potassium: 99 mg.


 There are mentions of other goodies, like stearic acid, magnesium stearate
and silica, but heaven only knows what THAT stuff's in there for, as the
potassium is in the form of potassium gluconate.

						Opinions?

						 ajr

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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1991 14:30:22 EST
From: WHADDAAYAAT? <fskanes at kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #753 (November 01, 1991)

how do I sign off from this server?

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #759, 11/11/91
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