---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Boots Bitter (Desmond Mottram)
  huh? (Dick Dunn)
  HBD is cool (Desmond Mottram)
  Beer Ball Dispensers (Sean J. Caron)
  quick tip of the day (dave ballard)
  Re: Cleaning (John DeCarlo)
  Chillers and Winners (Tom Dimock)
  Re: AB tastelessness (Chris Shenton)
  Oatmeal Stout...thick stuff! (Dave Beedle)
  Foundrybrau (wbt)
  Quick comments (Daniel Roman)
  Anal Retentive Brewing (aka Fastidious Brewing) (MIKE LIGAS)
  Spice beer question, Chimay yeast reply, Belgian beer , Gushing (Andy Leith)
  How to reduce the noise level (Tom Barstow)
  Washing Beer Glasses ("Rad Equipment")
  Washing Beer Glasses                  Time:8:27 AM     Date:11/21/91
  shocking yeast with too much malt? (sherwood)
  arf (sherwood)
  Re: Boots bitter kits (Rick Larson)
  Pasteurization (or lack thereof), and how much bleach? (GERMANI)
  rust on a carboy (mcnally)
  Bay Area Brewoff (Bob Jones)
  Detergent is not Soap (larryba)
  Boiling Vessals / Conservation of electrons. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Steel vs. Aluminum (Arthur Delano)
  Fermenting In Soda Kegs (Robert A. Gorman)
  Jay Hersh (George Fix)
  address for Chicago Beer Society (Thomas Manteufel 5-4257)
  Alternative Gardening Supply in IL? (Jacob Galley)
  Call for Votes (bryan)
  Commercialism ("Tom Childers")
  Re: Homebrew Digest #764 (November 20, 1991) (Robert Orr)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 10:00:04 GMT
From: des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: Boots Bitter


> From: Sgt John S. Bergmann <iceberg at sctc.af.mil>
> Subject: Boots bitter kits
> 
> 
> Howdy,
>   One of my co-workers just returned from England and brought me two cans
> of Boots Bitter concentrated wort.  I've never heard any reviews, comments,
> flames, praises, etc. on this brand, so I was wondering if anyone has tried
> it.  It sez on the can it uses 'hop extract'.  Should I add some hops to
> the boil???  The instructions also say to use 2lbs sugar, I think I'm gonna
> use a couple #'s of honey instead.  Good Idea or Bad Medicine??  It also
> comes with a little foil pouch of dry 'genuine Brewers yeast'.  Any ideas?
> should I just trash it and use wyeast, or can this be used w/ a starter?
> 
>    Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
> 

Boots bitter kits, like all bitter kits in the UK, already have hop extract
added. You only need add more if it's not bitter enough for you. Mostly we 
don't bother. The yeast is usually OK but you may prefer to use one you 
know. I'd say give it a try as it is. It'll give you a prefectly reasonable
British bitter for little effort. If you tinker with it you won't know 
whether it's the kit or your changes that make it the way it is.

Boots kits are not the best available. Ask your friend to track down a 
homebrew retailer next time he's here and drool over the range available. 
I maintain the best is John Thompson, buts that's just MHO.

[stuff re DOS recipe DB deleted]
> 
>    Tango,
>    Johnny Bergmann, USAFE net dude.

Desmond Mottram

des at swindon.ingr.com
uunet!ingr!nijmeg!swindon!d_mottram

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Date: 21 Nov 91 03:26:50 MST (Thu)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: huh?

Who was it that had (prematurely) thanked arf/JS for toning down?  JaH was
right.

> I will try to be gentle responding to this utter rubbish.  I don't want to be 
> accused of being confrontational.

Like, cool, man...call it "utter rubbish" and then say you'll try to be
gentle.  How stupid do you think we are?  Wrong; guess again.

> 2.  SS contains chromium which has a melting temperature around 3500 F.  This 
> puts the melting point of the alloy significantly above that of carbon steel.

The melting point of an alloy is related to the melting points of its con-
stituents in complex ways.  If you don't believe this (and you've never
encountered the rare substance called "solder") go look up the word
"eutectic."

If you think you can predict the melting point of an alloy based on a minor
constituent, please tell me what you're smoking (and where I can buy some).

> 4.  Precisely because water boils at 212 F and turns into an expanding, 
> cooling gas, one can heat it in kettles without worrying about the kettles 
> melting.  This is true, even if the flame temp is far above the melting point 
> of the kettle.

This is true only within limits.  You shouldn't have to worry about melting
the bottom of a kettle unless you've got a bodacious flame, but you *CAN*
damage a kettle without much effort on a good home gas stove.  The control-
ling factor is the rate of heat transmission through the bottom of the kettle.

Well, as long as I'm at it...

>  While I am counter-flaming, I would like to point out that most reasonable 
>  people would find the following sort of comments far more offensive than 
>  anything I have ever said.
>  
>  >Occasionally (once per 10 batches), I run boiling water through
>   just to be anal. 
>  
>  Just what does such gutter talk have to do with beer making?  And why is it 
>  necessary and accepted without anyone else objecting?

What do you find objectionable?  Unlike your tendency to disbelieve any-
thing you haven't proven within your own quite limited abilities, I find a
certain tendency to possibly-excessive cleaning to be not only normal, but
reasonable.  Perhaps you don't understand the full context of "anal"?  It
refers to "anal-retentive"--not in the least "gutter talk" but rather a
phrase from psychology turned to pop-psych.  I don't care whether it's in
your vocabulary, but if it isn't, go educate yourself instead of sniping.
Your marginal literacy is not our problem.

[Aluminum vs SS]
> It has a much stronger tendancy to leave your brain cells intact.  Oops, 
> forgot to turn off flame.
>  
> Although there is a great deal of debate about the cause and effect of 
> aluminum found in the brains of Alzheimer victims, the implication is far too 
> freightening to even consider using an aluminum kettle for long term boiling.

Only if you're scientifically illiterate.  Start by repeating ten times,
"Correlation does not imply causality."  There is no implication such as
that with which you attempt to scare us.

If you'd keep up with more recent work, you'd probably have read that
although the correlation between Alzheimer's and aluminum in the brain is
sound science, causality (from Al to Alzheimer's) doesn't hold up.  Stated
simply, we don't know why the excess Al ends up in the brain, but it's not
the causative factor for Alzheimer's.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado
	...Simpler is better.

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 11:11:28 GMT
From: des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: HBD is cool

Incidentally, I've noticed some flak cluttering up HBD recently. Stick to 
brewing folks. The nice thing about HBD is it's devoted to a pleasurable 
pastime, it's subscribers are a friendly and informative bunch. Try mailing 
the offender direct, if you want to say things like the following, not HBD.

>  ...I will try to be gentle responding to this utter rubbish...
>  ...While I am counter-flaming...oops sorry...
>  > just to be anal. 
> ...WE'RE SICK OF IT ALREADY!!! ...
>  ...Just what does such gutter talk have to do with beer making?

Desmond Mottram
des at swindon.ingr.com
uunet!ingr!nijmeg!swindon!d_mottram

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 09:00:32 EST
From: Sean J. Caron <CARONS at TBOSCH.dnet.ge.com>
Subject: Beer Ball Dispensers



morning ladies & gents -

  i've heard through this forum and a few other places that used beer balls
  can be used for "keging". I've been asked to make a little something for
  a new years eve party, and really cannot see myself worrying about my
  bottle collection ~ 2 am. New Years Day. What modifications/equipment
  are necessary to "re-fill" a beer ball?

  to Micah Millspaw:

     two posts - two flames - good average, man.
     EASE UP. the last thing the HBD needs is another flame-meister.
     'nuff said.



                                                    sean

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Date: 21 Nov 1991   8:48 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: quick tip of the day


Hey now-  Just a quick tip for you carboy users:  You know how it takes like
a week to pour all of the water out of a full carboy due to all the 
glugging?  Take a racking tube and stick it all the way to the bottom.
When you start to pour, move the end to the newly formed air space.  The
air that's needed to push the water out will be sucked in through the tube
and avoids all glugging.  You'll get a nice smooth stream that empties
the carboy on seconds!  Pretty cool, huh?

If you've already thought of this, I apologize.  I'm kinda slow
sometimes.

For a demonstration of this technique, check out my video: "Carboy Cleaning
At Home"...  ;-) ;-) ;-)  (can you believe I said that?)


later!
dab
=======================================================================
dave ballard                    |  Reach out your hand if your cup be empty,
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com       |  If your cup be full may it be again


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Date: Thursday, 21 Nov 1991 09:10:19 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Cleaning

>From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>

>Russ sez:

>>The glasses were washed with generic (cheap) automatic
>>dishwashing detergent, after their previous use and then rinsed
>>with hot water just prior to their use in the competition
>>mentioned.

>AAAck. I never use soap on my beer glasses. I use B-brite. There
>are other cleaning agents that many/most bars use.  Soap is much
>more difficult to rinse clean without leaving a film.

Sorry, Jay, but I couldn't let this go by without comment.
*Soap* leaves a film.  *Detergent* does not.  People who clean
items that come into contact with beer use detergents, since soap
leaves a film and will cause off-flavors and destroy the head of
the beer.  Bars use detergents (at least the ones I used to work
at did) for this reason.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date:         Thu, 21 Nov 91 09:31:21 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Chillers and Winners

The response to my question as to whether users of counter-flow
chillers ferment on top of the cold break or not was about half
and half.  Some just leave it there, others let the wort settle
for some period of time (some chill it all the way down to near
freezing and then bring it back up to pitching temperature) and
then rack it off.  No strong opinions as to which is best. John
Lenz (a fellow Ithaca Brewers Union member) mentioned that he
uses a flow-thru chiller that is not technically a counter-flow
chiller - he puts the coil of copper into a bucket of cold
water.  This allows him to use heat to sanitize the copper coil.

Major congratulations to HBD denizens and IBU members Steve Russell
and Tom Strasser, whose festbier took 2nd place in the recent
AHA club-only competition.  Way to go, guys!  I was fortunate
enough to have tasted this beer, and it was indeed great stuff!

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 10:00:40 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: AB tastelessness

On Wed, 20 Nov 1991 13:00 PDT, Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov> said:

Bob> really DIDN'T have a brew house at AB. They are just bottling
Bob> carbonated water. You can do your own testing to verify this
Bob> hypothesis. Just blind taste their beer next to a cold glass of
Bob> carbonated water. I rest may case.

The carbonated water has more flavor, aroma, and mouthfeel. :-)

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 9:03:06 CST
From: dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Dave Beedle)
Subject: Oatmeal Stout...thick stuff!

     Good day all!   I brewed up my first oatmeal stout this past week end
using 18oz of Quaker Old Fasioned (rolled) oats.  The stuff was pretty thick
in the brew pot and pretty messy to deal with but I was really supprised when
I trasfered to a secondary.  About the last three inchs of brew in the
fermenter was too thick to siphon!  I ended up with about a gallon of trub/
yeast/stout going down the drain.  This is my first oatmeal stout so I ask, Is
this normal?  I didn't get a very good cold break and the trub didn't really
pack down like it usually does.  Would a better break help keep from putting
so much (hopefully) good brew down the drain?  I'm just hoping some of that
body caries through to the finished product!

TTFN

- --
  Dave Beedle                                     Office of Academic Computing
                                                     Illinois State University
  Internet:  dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                     136A Julian Hall
    Bitnet:  dbeedle at ilstu.bitnet                           Normal, Il   61761

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 10:07:40 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Foundrybrau

> From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
> Subject: STUFF
> 
>  From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
>  J. Schmidling:
>  >> mine sits on top of a 2500 deg , forced air melting furnace 
>  
>   > I don't know what you used to determine you temperature but it would not 
>  be possible to boil water or wort in a controlled manner at 2500  degrees F. 
>  The problem is (and its just a small problem) that carbon  steel melts at 
>  2500 degrees F. Stainless steel and aluminum have much  lower melting temps. 
>  
>  1.  I measure the flame temperature with a thermocouple pyrometer.  This 
>  instrument is to a foundry what a hydrometer is to a brewery.

Actually, a pyrometer is to a foundry what a thermometer is to a brewery;
a way to measure temperature.
  
>  2. SS contains chromium which has a melting temperature around 3500 F.  This 
>  puts the melting point of the alloy significantly above that of carbon steel.

Ah, but carbon steel contains carbon, which melts at 6700 F!  Seriously,
this reasoning has no relationship to actual melting phenomena.  Stainless
steel, in fact, melts at a temperature *lower* than pure iron or chromium.  
(For a household example, consider the melting point of salt, that of
ice; and then what happens when you put salt on ice.)

A typical "household" stainless steel melts in the range 2500-2600 F; a
1050 medium carbon steel begins melting at around 2600 F, and low carbon
steels will hold out a bit above that.  There's really not much
difference, in other words; maybe 100 degrees in favor of the carbon
steel.

What you both need to keep in mind is a little bit of heat transfer.  Your
flame may be hot enough to barely melt steel, but as heat transfer
isn't perfect, you'll find that the temperature of the pot's surface is 
several hundred degrees lower than the flame temperature.   In Jack's case,
I'd guess that his pot, depending on how thick-walled it is, never 
exceeeds 1000F at any point, and probably averages about 500F in the
center of the sidewall.

What's this got to do with brewing?  Well, "Know your equipment and know
yourself, and in a thousand brews you will never worry." - Sun Tzu Papazian

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker       AT&T Network Systems - Columbus            cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer      Network Wireless Systems       wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 09:53:12 EST
From: tix!roman at uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Quick comments

Jack:

1) "Anal" is a psychological term when used in this context and any text
   book on Freudian pschology will have this word you have a phobia
   about plastered all over the pages.  It is a very accurate slang
   description I think, about the way some people (including me) approach
   certain aspects of homebrewing.

2) Alzheimer's disease is hereditary and you could eat aluminum cans all you
   want or avoid aluminum it won't matter, if you have the gene, you get
   the disease.  CP suggests avoiding aluminum cookware because it has a
   tendancy to oxidize and could contribute flavors to the beer.
   Aluminum doesn't really oxidize easily unless exposed to chemicals
   such as chorine, but it certainly oxidizes MUCH easier than
   stainless.  If you are on a tight budget or don't know if you want
   plunge into homebrewing completely as a beginner, using an aluminum
   pot for awhile and later shelling out the big bucks for a stainless
   steel one is not all that terrible.  You'll still be able to make
   good, drinkable beer.


_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Roman           |     ///          Internet:  roman_d at timplex.com
Timeplex Inc.       | \\\///              GEnie:  D.ROMAN1
Woodcliff Lake, NJ  |  \XX/ Only AMIGA!      Homebrew is better brew.
=====================================================================

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 10:24 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Anal Retentive Brewing (aka Fastidious Brewing)

In HD765 arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

> While I am counter-flaming, I would like to point out that most reasonable 
> people would find the following sort of comments far more offensive than 
> anything I have ever said.
 
>> Occasionally (once per 10 batches), I run boiling water through
>> just to be anal. 
 
> Just what does such gutter talk have to do with beer making?  And why is it 
> necessary and accepted without anyone else objecting?

I'm hoping you were only joking Jack, but the reason why nobody finds the term
"anal" more offensive than anything you have ever said and the reason why it is
not "gutter talk" and is in fact related to beer making is because it is a
legitimate term for people who are overly fastidious. Here's the definition from
the Webster's New World Dictionary:

anal - designating or of such traits in the adult as orderliness, stinginess,
       obstinancy, etc., regarded as unconscious psychic residues of that stage.

Time to catch up on your Freud! :)

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 10:02:53 CST
From: andy at wups.wustl.edu (Andy Leith)
Subject: Spice beer question, Chimay yeast reply, Belgian beer , Gushing

Hello,
 I recently (4 weeks ago) made a batch of the Xmas ale that has
been posted on here several times. At present the taste of the ginger
is overpowering, will this mellow with time? There is also a soapy
taste at present, I have never had this problem before, and am wondering
if it will go away with time, and if this is common with spice beers. I
added 1/2 teaspoon of vanilla extract to the secondary to help meld the
flavours, but so far it doesn't seem to have worked.

With regards to the postings on culturing Chimay yeast, I have tried this on 
several occasions with Chimay red and have had good results every time 
although the time it takes for activity to start has varied from 2 days to 
2 weeks.

My wife recently returned from a trip to Holland and brought back several (9)
different varieties of Belgian and Dutch beer. One of these was Gulden Draak
by Bios, which I expected to be fairly sour as are their other beers, but 
which turned out to be a fabulous fruity barley wine type beer with strong
blackcurrant overtones, which I highly recommend to anybody who likes strong
 ales (although I've never seen it available in the midwest).

A quick reminder that the St. Louis Brews annual christmas competition is 
coming up (entry deadline is early December) for anyone interested. We will
also be giving the beer judge certification exam (Dec 14th).

I recently read an article in the European Brewery Convention monograph VI
(Helsinki 1980). In which a correlation was found between barley malt 
contaminated with Fusarium moulds and gushing. I was suprised that the
contaminated malt would cause gushing considering that the worts were 
boiled for 60 minutes. I have always assumed that gushing was the result of
infections obtained during the brewing process, but it appears that poor
quality grain can cause this problem regardless of the care that you take
with your brewing procedure. (The cure for this problem is to add
formaldehyde to the steeping water used to make the malt, which doesn't
sound like much of a cure!)

Andy Leith        andy at wups.wustl.edu

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 10:53:53 EST
From: Tom Barstow <barstow at apollo.hp.com>
Subject: How to reduce the noise level

I've hesitated to write this since it, too, adds to the noise 
in the HBD but I can't take it any longer.

I started reading the Digest about a year and a half ago, back
in the days when politeness and civility reigned and flaming 
was associated only with brewing.  In the last few months the 
S/N ratio has deteriorated badly due to the number and intensity 
of arguments and personal attacks that have appeared here.

Frankly, I don't blame JS for the deterioration -- I fault those 
people who have overreacted to him, repling not just to him but 
also to the Digest.  Just think how much less noise would have 
been in the Digest had his commercials been shrugged off!  
Suppose he advertised weekly -- the S/N ratio would *still* 
have been better than what it has been.  Let's ignore the junk
postings just as we do those that come through the U.S. Mail.

And as for the I've-got-to-reply-because-others-will-be-misled 
justification -- fine, correct the misinformation but, for God's 
sake, take some lessons from Miss Manners before you start typing.  
Pass on the information you have to the Digest and post your 
personal comments separately to the submitter WITHOUT INCLUDING
THE HBD IN YOUR EXPLOSION.

Let's get back to where reading the Digest was a great way to 
start the day.

Tom
- -------

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Date: 21 Nov 91 08:43:27 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Washing Beer Glasses

Subject:  Washing Beer Glasses                  Time:8:27 AM     Date:11/21/91
From JayH:

>Russ sez:

>>The glasses were washed with generic (cheap) automatic
>>dishwashing detergent, after their previous use and then
>>rinsed with hot water just prior to their use in the 
>>competition mentioned.

>AAAck. I never use soap on my beer glasses. I use B-brite. There are other
>cleaning agents that many/most bars use. Soap is much more difficult to >rinse
clean without leaving a film. The cleaners bars use (sorry don't know >any
brand names) are chosen because they do rinse clean. B-Brite also does, >which
is why I use it on my glassware.

I believe Miller (CHoHB) discusses the difference between hand dishwashing
detergent and automatic detergent.  The hand stuff is certainly a no-no (Tom
Ayres taught me this many years ago while I was washing up one night at his
place).  The automatic stuff acts more like B-Brite in that it uses oxygen or
some such to do its cleaning and often has some chlorine in it to assist.  As
long as you don't use ones like Cascade which have some additive which coats
the glass to prevent spotting the glassware should rinse out clean.  I have
never experienced the head loss associated with hand detergents when using the
automatic stuff.  A double rinse doesn't hurt either.

As far as the cardboard is concerned, I am still researching alternate
containers (the boxes I have now are so old that they aren't much good anyway).
 So far all suggestions have been for commercial dishwashing racks which won't
really work as they are open to the air.  Plastic boxes seem to offer the best
future, but I'm concerned about trading one smell for another.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:11:08 -0800
From: sherwood at adobe.com
Subject: shocking yeast with too much malt?

I suppose you COULD hurt the yeast with too much malt -- in large
enough concentrations it should be a preservative (a la sugar).  No
way would you do it in any reasonable setting, though.  When I have
used Wyeast I pitched directly from the package into 5 gallons of
wort, OG 1055, with hops, crystal malt, and other junk.  I ferment cold
(by ale standards) at 58 -- not the ideal for the yeast, but very good
for the taste.  Fermentation started a little slowly, but went fine.  Very
nice beers.  By the way, this was with both German and Irish yeasts (I do
not recall the numbers, but both were definitely ALE yeasts).
	Geoff Sherwood

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:35:46 -0800
From: sherwood at adobe.com
Subject: arf


Look, people.  Jack has toned things down quite a bit.  He made one ill-
advised posting (his promo piece) and got a lot of crap over it.  I was
not overly fond of it myself, but I vastly preferred it to all of the
bitching that followed.  If you don't like something, IGNORE IT.  Or if
you have to get it off your chest, use email.  Don't clutter up the digest,
because nobody really gives a damn if you are pissed over Jack's (or anyone
else's, for that matter) postings.

Yes, I realize I am doing the same thing, but I am at least pleading for some
sanity here.  Jay Hersh's diatribe over Jack's mentioning his videos in
passing prompted me to break my own rule here.  The diatribe was boring and
petty.

To Jack: trying to show that others are more obnoxious than you are doesn't
help your case.  Darren's comment about being anal was hardly vulgar.  He
was obviously using it in a clinical sense (as in anal retentive) meaning
that he didn't think it made any difference whether he ran the boiling water
though it, but he did it anyway.  You do post a lot of interesting information,
like the nitrosomine info today, and I hope you continue.  Your correction
on melting kettles was apt and well presented.

	Geoff Sherwood

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 11:21:55 -0600
From: melkor!rick at uunet.UU.NET (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Boots bitter kits


Ah, what memories.

My first homebrew was made using Boots extracts.  My Mom
when to England with a friend and came back with two kits.
I remember making a 2 gallon batch in my college dorm kitchen.
Beer was not allowed campus so went the RA asked my girlfriend
(now wife ;-) what are we making, he was suprised.  I used plastic
milk jugs, open fermentation, and bottled the ``beer'' in plastic
quart pop bottles.  I don't remember if the beer was good or
not (this was 1979!), but my roommate fell into a lake that
was a few miles away and I kept on brewing.  Looking back I am
suprised it was any good due to the lack of sanitation but boy
what fun!

I think Boots is a drug store and sells it's own brand of wort.

I would not use any corn sugar let alone 2 pounds.  You didn't
say how big the wort is (I thought the little cans were about 2.2
pounds maybe less) but I would use both cans, 2 pounds of light
dried malt extract, an ounce of Kent Golding hops bittering, 1/2
ounce aromatic, and 1 packet of Whitbread Ale Yeast.  Add enough
boiled and cooled water to get OG ~ 1.035.  I would doubt the extra
expense of Wyeast would improve the final product.  This beer
is to have fun with.  When it is ready have your co-worker over
for the bitter and one of your better brews.  Maybe [s]he will
start brewing also.

rick



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 12:42 EST
From: GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Pasteurization (or lack thereof), and how much bleach?

Greetings,
	Here's one more data point on pasteurization.  Several beer factories
have products labeled "cold filtered".  I know, at least for Miller, that this
means that they don't pasteurize the beer but the use these ultra-fine ceramic
filters.  This means that beyond the filters the lines must be kept sanitary. 
From what I can tell Miller actually has ceramic coated lines and a "clean
room" around the filler.  It doesn't sound worth it to me (there is so little
flavor in industrial beer anyway), but is seems to be a good marketing ploy.
	I'd rather just forget about industrial beer and wait for my Holiday
Ale (ginger and coriander seed this year).  While waiting, in fact, I think 
that I'll have a fresh brown ale or some of my latest cider.  Isn't this one 
of the most rewarding hobbies imaginable!  

	On to another subject.  Spencer W. Thomas says that "someone who 
should know" told him that 10 seconds of dilute (1 capful in 5 gal) bleach
sol'n will kill all.  Now, Miller (the book) says 10 min. with something 
like 2-4 oz of bleach in 5 gal. is necessary.  Of course, some people advocate 
not using any sanitizing stuff.  Not to open up this whole can of worms 
again, but does anyone really know what is needed in order to insure 
adequate sanitization?  (I know, this is probably not a well defined 
question).

Keep on fermenting,

	Joe 

P. S.  js, look up anal retentive personality in a psychology textbook--it's
       not really that offensive.

Bitnet: GERMANI at YALEVMS
Decnet: 44421::GERMANI


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire." 
						--David Rains Wallace

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 09:47:30 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: rust on a carboy


Get some Zud cleanser, or go to a "rock shop" (a store catering to rock
hunting hobbyists) and get some oxalic acid.  Mix some (not too much) 
with hot water and pour it in the carboy.  The rust will vanish.

An alternative is too cook up a bunch of spinach and pour it in with the
cooking water.  There's a miniscule chance this will work, because
spinach contains oxalic acid.

Now, I can't speak for what will happen to you if you don't sufficiently
rinse the stuff away.  In fact, it might render the carboy permanently
toxic.

By the way:  I'll bet the blueness is a natural discoloration of the
glass from exposure to solar radiation.  Certain types of glass thusly
discolor.  In fact, in Boston it's a great distinction to have a blue
glass window on a house, because it indicates the house's authentic
antiquity:  a shipment of glass from the continent in the 18th century
was apparently left exposed to sunlight for a long time, and turned blue.

(One might ask why window glass doesn't all turn blue.  I don't know.
Maybe this is all a myth.)

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 10:23 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Bay Area Brewoff


Dear Fellow Homebrewer:

     You are invited to participate in the 1992 Bay Area Brew-off 
homebrew competition. This years competition is hosted by The 
Draught Board homebrew club. The competition will be held at 
Lyons Brewery Depot in Dublin, Ca. on Jan 25, 1992. Entries will 
be received the week of Jan. 10-17 at Lyons Brewery. Entry dead-
line is Jan. 17, 1992. Mail or deliver your entries to Lyons 
Brewery Depot, 7294 San Ramon Road, Dublin, Ca. 94568. Entries 
consist of 2 - 12 oz. bottles. Entry fee is $5.00 per entry. One 
entry per category. Label each entry with category and sub cat-
egory if needed, your name, address, phone number and club affil-
iation.
	The catagories for this years competition will be as
follows:

	Dry Stout
	Porter
	Pale Ale - Sub Cat. are Classic Pale Ale, India Pale Ale,
                   American Pale Ale
	Amber Lager - Steam style
	Barley Wine
	Mead - Sub Cat. are Traditional, Melomel, Cyser, Metheglin
               (all still and sparkling)
	Holiday Beer - Spiced, herbed or other special beer 
		brewed for the Christmas holidays.

     This  is always a fun get together for homebrewers. I look 
forward to seeing you all there.

If you want additional details on the catagory definitions or have
general questions about the competition call Bob Jones
(510)743-9519 or email to BJONES at NOVA.LLNL.GOV



                                    See you at the competition,

                                    Bob Jones

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Date: Thu Nov 21 10:25:26 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Detergent is not Soap

in HBD 765 Jay Hersh claimed (indirectly) that dishwashing detergent
is soap.  I do not believe he is correct.  Detergent is
detergent, not soap.  Most dishwashing detergent (hand or machine) is
detergent + sodium carbonate.  In fact, machine stuff is primarily
sodium carbonate.  Washing Soda (sodium carbonate) is actually a very
good agent for cleaning glasses. It rinses off easily and cuts most
dirt items.  It also makes for very easy label removal from bottles.

The biggest problem with some automatic dishwashing detergent is
that they sometimes have a "rinse" agent in them.  That stuff is
suppose to be death to beer heads.  So avoid brands that claim to be
"spotless".

Soap (like hand washing soap or liquid ivory) is a different matter.
They are sodium or potasium salts of fatty acids (e.g. fat) and are
indeed very hard to rinse completely off of glass.

I have used Electrosol with excellent results for bottles and
glasses.  You can even call up their consumer hot line and get a
complete skinny on what is in the stuff.  Washing soda (blue box at
your supermarket) is dirt cheap. I used to use that for my kegs &
carboy, but now just use a squirt of Dawn liquid detergent.

Another note.  Because of the high temperatures and overkill in amounts
of detergent used, glasses will eventually etch.  That is bad since
the etching seems to "hold" some of the detergent (that awful dishwasher
smell).  Two things can be done: lower the hot water temp (mine is set
to 115f) and cut the amount of detergent used.  You might have to pre-
wash the dried on spagetti, but your glasses will live far longer and the
beer taste so much better...

        - Larry Barello


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Date: 21 Nov 91 14:39:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: Boiling Vessals / Conservation of electrons.

Jack S. may be correct about boiling water over a very hot source.  I used 
to win bets on camping trips by placing a styrafoam cup full of water over 
a hot bed of coals and showing that, so long as it had water in it, it 
would not burn or melt.  In fact, I boiled soup in paper cups once and won 
more bets.

About conservation of bytes.  This digest has gotton very long.  I love all 
the reading, but many people pay for every kilobyte and reading unnecessary 
material may be unfair to them.  May I make the following suggestions:

1.  Use as little copied material as possible when referring to another 
post.
2.  Keep signature lines and tag material to a minimum.  Unless the "From:" 
line is wrong, there is no need to relist your email address.  Unless you 
are inviting letters of phone calls, mail addresses and phone numbers 
aren't really necessary, either.  I like cute sayings, too, but I don't 
really like paying for them.

No offense intended.  This is just offered in the spirit of making the 
maximum use of expensive space.
- -- Dan


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 14:45:35 EST
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Steel vs. Aluminum


In HBD 765, KARL DESCH <KCDESCH at ucs.indiana.edu> says:
> >1.  This keg appears to be all aluminum.  If memory serves me correctly 
 Papazian suggests to avoid using aluminum as a boiling pot.  What about SS 
 makes it better than aluminum?
And arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) replies:
> Although there is a great deal of debate about the cause and effect of 
 aluminum found in the brains of Alzheimer victims, the implication is far too 
 freightening to even consider using an aluminum kettle for long term boiling.

I've got a much more pragmatic, less controversial answer.
The average K-Mart-quality steel pot is more sturdy than the average K-Mart-
quality aluminum pot.  I have no knowledge about high-end aluminum cookware
(i.e. Calophon), but although it seems sturdy, it costs $80 and up for a
twenty quart pot.  We have a sixteen quart aluminum stock pot we use for
general cooking, and a twenty quart steel stock pot for brewing, and the
aluminum is certainly showing its age.

Hope this provides some help.

AjD
ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 14:46:16 EST
From: semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET (Robert A. Gorman)
Subject: Fermenting In Soda Kegs


Fermenting In Stainless Steel Soda Kegs
=======================================


Cleaning and sterilizing of these has already been discussed. 
Through out this discussion assume that all pieces and parts
mentioned have been cleaned and sterilized.

You will need a proper size wrench to be used for removing the
connectors from the keg.  If you use pliers or an adjustable wrench
you will eventually wear out your connectors.  My kegs are 3 and
5 gallon Cornellius Spartan style with ball fittings (as seen on
the cover of Zymurgy).  For the 5 gallon I use a standard 7/8"
wrench and for the 3 gallon I use an 11/16" twelve point deep
socket (a wrench would work just as well).  These kegs have the
single detachable plastic handles and don't interfere with removal
of the connectors.  People with the full circumference rubber
handles my need to use sockets rather than wrenches to get at the
connectors.

Note: Before removing any connectors equalize the external and
internal pressure of the keg.  (ie: open the pressure release until
the gas stops hissing out).


Attaching A Blow-Off Tube
- -------------------------

Remove the gas connect from the keg with your wrench and then
remove the gas dip tube.  This leaves a threaded nub sticking up.
The outside diameter of the nub is about 3/8".  A piece of 3/8" ID
tubing can easily be squished over this nub and firmly attached
with a hose clamp.  The length of my blow-off tub is about 2 1/2
feet for a 5 gallon keg.

The liquid connector and dip tube can also be removed and replaced
with a blow-off tube in the same way.  I leave mine in place and
have had no problems with it clogging to date.  The only side
effect is that it can contain yeast deposits which cloud the first
cup of beer when it is racked.


Attaching An Air-Lock
- ---------------------

When your beer no longer needs a blow-off tube an air-lock can
easily be attached in its place.  For this I again use 3/8" ID
tubing, but with a length of about 2".  One end is affixed to the
gas connector nub as described above.  The air lock is then slipped
into the other end of this short piece of tubing and affixed with
a hose clamp.


Racking
- -------

When its time to rack your beer, from settled trub or yeast, you
will need to reinstall the gas connector.  Reassemble the connector
pieces as they where before you disassembled them.  Take your
wrench and snug down the connector.  There is no need for excessive
tightening as the rubber O ring holds a great seal.  You can tell
when a connector has been over tightened as the once round O ring
emerges with flattened edges.

If you are using a shortened liquid dip tube for racking then
install this into place if not already present.  I use a dip tube
shortened 1" for primary racking and one that is shortened 1/2"
for secondary racking.  One could also use a tube shortened by
1 1/2" if expecting large amounts of trub or yeast.

Place a second fully assembled keg next to the first.  Purge the
air from the second keg with CO2.  You will need two liquid
disconnects ("beer taps"), a piece of tubing to go between them,
and way to stop the flow of beer.  Connect one disconnect to the
first keg with the piece of tubing attached.  Apply pressure with
your CO2 tank and run off the beer/yeast/trub until the beer runs
clear.  I use between 5 and 10 PSI of CO2.

If you have a lot of trub or a lot yeast from a highly active
ferment you my find that the first pint is purely yeast/trub.  This
is why I recommend a shortened liquid dip tube.  If you are using
a shortened dip tube or are racking from a secondary
fermentation/settling tank then you will find that the first cup
or two will contain some suspended yeast.

Once you've got a clear flow of beer run some off into a cup to be
used for evaluating the beer and to do your hydrometer reading
with.  Then stop the flow of beer and connect the open end of the
tube to the other liquid disconnect.  This second liquid disconnect
is then connected to the second keg.  Restart the flow of beer and
open the pressure release on the second keg so the beer will flow
freely from one keg to the other.

Now sit down and enjoy that sample of beer while doing your
hydrometer reading.  When the beer is done racking CO2 will begin
to bubble up through the beer in the second keg.  If allowed to
continue this will get rather violent.  Turn off the pressure from
your CO2 tank and purge the remaining pressure from the first keg. 
Remove the disconnects and you're all done.

If you need to connect an air-lock then follow the procedures
mentioned above.  Otherwise you've got a keg of beer ready to be
carbonated and enjoyed.

There are multiple methods of carbonating beer in a soda keg.  I
won't discuss any of them here.  There are also multiple methods
of enjoying beer in a soda keg.  I'll leave these as an exercise
for the reader.


Alternate Methods
- -----------------

Another method of connecting blow-off tubes is described in the
"Brewers and their gadgets" special issue of Zymurgy.  In that
article the shell of the connector is screwed back onto the keg
without the insides.  A 1/2" ID blow-off tube is then placed over
the outside of the connector.  This achieves the same result but
the effective opening for blow off is reduced to 3/16".  Therefore
this article recommends removing both the gas and liquid connectors
to allow additional capacity for blow-off.


Other Notes
- -----------

I initially got into fermenting in stainless steel after mangling
my hand on a broken carboy.  If you are already into using soda
kegs for dispensing your beer then why not go all the way and
ferment your beer in them too?  Then you can sell of those old
carboys and rid yourself of there evil presence.


Yours in Fermentaion Foam,

- -- Bob Gorman                   bob at rsi.com           Watertown MA US --
- -- Relational Semantics, Inc    uunet!semantic!bob    +1 617 926 0979 --


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 14:34:26 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)


Subject: Jay Hersh (George Fix)

Jay, I hope you will do a post in HBD about your interesting plans
for the AHA conference in June. I have been trying to answer your
e-mail, but messages sent to
          hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
have bounced back.


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 13:11:21 CST
From: tomm at pet.med.ge.com (Thomas Manteufel 5-4257)
Subject: address for Chicago Beer Society

Would some kind soul who has an e-mail address for a member or officer
of the Chicago Beer Society please contact me.

Thank You,
Thomas Manteufel                         IOFB


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 15:24:15 CST
From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Alternative Gardening Supply in IL?

Hi hi. A few weeks ago someone mentioned a source for cheap
(inexpensive even?) malt somewhere in Illinois called Alternative
Garden Supply. Can you send me info on how to get in touch with them?
Has anybody patronized them before? How's the quality?

Right now, the Malt Shop in Wisconsin is my source for cheap malt.
They sell Briess extracts, 3.3 lbs for $6.50. My first batch using
Briess is still aging, so I can't say it's good stuff yet. If it is,
I'll post the address. (I don't have it with me right now.)

Thanks.

Here is the address to complain to:
             Jacob Galley, a full-time student with a part-time reality check
						     gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu

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Date: 21 Nov 91 13:23:25 PST (Thu)
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: Call for Votes

I am really tired of seeing all the flamage about Jack Schmidling insisting
on continuing to plug "BREW IT AT HOME". 

I don't know if Rob would act on such a vote, but I propose we put it to a
vote. 

The question is:

  If Jack mentions "BREW IT AT HOME" one more time, we ask Rob to discontinue
  his digest membership.

Send mail to me, just a YES, for throw him off, or NO, for let him continue.

I'll stop counting votes on December 4, summarize to the digest and forward
to Rob if the vote is yes. All mail messages will be available until January
1, 1992 in someone else want's to count them. PLEASE send all related mail
to me, NOT the digest.

			Thank's
				Bryan Olson
				bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 14:40:30 PST
From: "Tom Childers" <TCHILDER at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Commercialism


I've been a delighted subscriber to this digest for several months now, and
am finally getting some equipment together and going for my first batch this
weekend.  I can't wait to have some real questions and contributions for this
fine forum.
 
But I do have comments on the resurging flame war focused on Jack Schmidling.
 
 - Everyone except Jack seems to be using Internet for it's intended purpose:
  the dissemination of information without commercial intent.  I enjoy hearing
  about new Guinness packaging, competitions, sources of materials, etc. when
  the contributor clearly has nothing to gain financially from the posting.
 
 - Jack has referred to his videos far too often with commerial intent.
  I am a likely purchaser of such a product, but would never buy something
  produced by a person who so freely violates the spirit of this medium.
 
 - I'm to the point where I will simply bypass entries from Jack.  Someone
  who takes offense at words that are in the dictionary (medical terms,
  no less!) and has contributed one interesting idea in 30 posting can be
  safely ignored.  Why don't others do the same?  This is one annoyance that
  will go away if no-one pays any attention.
 
Can we return to the interesting stuff now, and relax our egos a bit?  Please?
There are hundreds of us reading this digest, not just the few knocking heads.
We are here because we love the art/science/craft/end products of brewing!
 
Tom Childers
tchilder at us.oracle.com


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:28:39 PST
From: roborr at polari (Robert Orr)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #764 (November 20, 1991)

Please remove my name from this mailing list.

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #766, 11/22/91
*************************************
-------

---