[Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
Linda Conroy
rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com
Wed Mar 1 14:37:01 EST 2006
Greetings. I use both purchased cultures and I make my own. I keep a culture called Piima, which I use to culture cream for butter making. Then I use the cultured buttermilk as a culture. You can also purchase cultured buttermilk, which as I understand it is cultured with a mesophillic culture.
I only use cultures and rennet for hard cheese ie Cheddar, Gouda etc.-nothing else. Farm fresh milk does not need all that other stuff added.
When I lived on a goat farm-we made a very nice farmstead cheese. We used the whey from the last batch of cheese to culture the next batch, this was always yummy and flavorful. We used 1 quart of whey to each gallon of milk. One thing to note is that with farm fresh milk the bacteria present will vary depending on what the animal is eating, where they are in their lactation cycle etc. If you have this information you can use it to make decisions about what type of cheese to make etc.
Happy Cheese Making. >
Linda
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: raw milk (Barbara Cornelius)
> 2. Re: raw milk (Barbara Cornelius)
> 3. Re: Using raw milk (Jack Schmidling)
> 4. Re: Using raw milk (Barbara Cornelius)
> 5. Re: Using raw milk (Doug Snyder)
> 6. Re: Using raw milk (Jack Schmidling)
> 7. Re: raw milk (Albert Ortiz)
> 8. Re: raw milk (Jack Schmidling)
> 9. Re: Using raw milk (Jack Schmidling)
> 10. Re: Using raw milk (Doug Snyder)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:37:06 -0600
> From: Barbara Cornelius <bac at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <8909da890a0a.890a0a8909da at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Linda - thanks for your reply. I'm looking forward to giving this a try!
>
> On Peter Fankhuser's site, he mentions the following in relation to
> using raw milk:
> "1: Filter the milk to remove straw, hair etc. 2: Use a fresh, active
> starter and use a little more than usual. 3: Add 1 gram og potassium or
> sodium nitrate per gallon of milk 4: Be extra careful about the hygiene
> when making the cheese."
>
> Now, I get the milk already filtered, so I'd skip #1. #4 is obvious.
>
> But, what do you think of guidelines #2 and 3? Apparently, the
> potassium/sodium nitrates are to inhibit the coliform bacteria, but is
> it really necessary? Do you do this?
>
> Thanks again -
> Barbara
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Linda Conroy <rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com>
> Date: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:26 pm
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
>
> > Welcome Barbara,
> > I make all kinds of cheese with raw milk. You can follow any recipe
> > and simply ignore the part about pastreurization. Also when you add
> > rennet you need to top stir so that the cream is easily
> > incorporated. There are alot of options about raw vs pasteurized
> > milk (if you have not already read the information on realmilk.com
> > I would highly recomend it), I personally have chosen for 10 years
> > to make cheese with raw milk and it is always yummy!!
> > happy cheese making
> > Linda>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:59:18 -0600
> From: Barbara Cornelius <bac at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <8909a088e158.88e1588909a0 at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Oops - replying to my own message. I meant to say 'David Fankhauser's site'
>
>
> > ***> On Peter Fankhuser's site***, he mentions the following in
> relation to
> > using raw milk:
> ***SNIP***
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:08:36 -0600
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <4404BBD4.40603 at mc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Doug Snyder wrote:
> > Those are cultures that help create specific flavor (among other
> > things). You would use them whether using raw milk or pasteurized
> > milk. You can absolutely make cheese without them.....
>
> I thought so too until I tried it.
>
> My first unpasteurized milk cheese was a total loss. After 5 hours, the
> pH was exactly where it was when I started it.
>
> I then did a bit more research and learned that it is nearly impossible
> to make good cheese without external cultures. Not because of flavor
> but because there just is not enough native flora to get things going in
> a reasonable amount of time.
>
> The old dairy maid would always use a starter from yesterday's cheese to
> get the current one going. The native flora will add character and
> flavor to a cheese but should not be counted on to produce the proper
> acidification of a fresh batch of cheese.
>
> The sourdough analogy is not a good one because it also requires a
> culture to get started. One can, with lots of luck, create a culture by
> just exposing the nutrient to the atmosphere but it is a very
> inefficient way to do it. If one gets lucky and produces a usable
> culture, one would keep this going by regular nurturing and use this as
> the starter for future batches.
>
> One can purchase a cheese culture and nurture it for years and never buy
> again but it is risky business and the stuff is cheap enough. It is
> not worth gambling the raw materials and time to save a few pennies.
>
> js
>
> --
> PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:19:01 -0600
> From: Barbara Cornelius <bac at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <892fd1891e7d.891e7d892fd1 at NebrWesleyan.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Jack - thanks for the info. I guess what I meant when I referred to
> sourdough is that while you *can* get sourdough bread with homegrown,
> naturally occuring cultures from the environment, it's more consistent
> and you get specific flavors that you're looking for if you inoculate
> with prepared cultures (not leaving it to chance). That's what I
> understood Doug's reference to be. Inoculating gives you specific
> flavors, and more consistent results, than not. Like, buying sourdough
> culture freezedried and using that instead of hoping to catch your own
> in your own house.
>
> Would that be the correct analogy, then?
>
> Barbara
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 3:08 pm
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
>
> > Doug Snyder wrote:
> > > Those are cultures that help create specific flavor (among other
> > > things). You would use them whether using raw milk or
> > pasteurized
> > > milk. You can absolutely make cheese without them.....
> >
> > I thought so too until I tried it.
> >
> > My first unpasteurized milk cheese was a total loss. After 5
> > hours, the
> > pH was exactly where it was when I started it.
> >
> > I then did a bit more research and learned that it is nearly
> > impossible
> > to make good cheese without external cultures. Not because of
> > flavor
> > but because there just is not enough native flora to get things
> > going in
> > a reasonable amount of time.
> >
> > The old dairy maid would always use a starter from yesterday's
> > cheese to
> > get the current one going. The native flora will add character and
> > flavor to a cheese but should not be counted on to produce the
> > proper
> > acidification of a fresh batch of cheese.
> >
> > The sourdough analogy is not a good one because it also requires a
> > culture to get started. One can, with lots of luck, create a
> > culture by
> > just exposing the nutrient to the atmosphere but it is a very
> > inefficient way to do it. If one gets lucky and produces a usable
> > culture, one would keep this going by regular nurturing and use
> > this as
> > the starter for future batches.
> >
> > One can purchase a cheese culture and nurture it for years and
> > never buy
> > again but it is risky business and the stuff is cheap enough. It
> > is
> > not worth gambling the raw materials and time to save a few pennies.
> >
> > js
> >
> > --
> > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver
> > http://schmidling.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cheese mailing list
> > Cheese at hbd.org
> > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:19:23 -0800
> From: "Doug Snyder" <dsnyder at swlaw.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <EEAC112B-540E-42BA-B29F-D3AE7A67E6BC at swlaw.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Interesting, I've had trouble getting pasteurized milk to "cheese"
> but I've never had a problem with raw milk (usually purchased from
> Whole Foods here in Los Angeles). I think I've only tried to make
> cheese with raw milk once without the mesophilic culture pack from
> New England Cheesemaking and it worked well. Just didn't have much
> personality. But I'm no expert and probably haven't made one 1/100th
> the cheese you have.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote:
>
> > Doug Snyder wrote:
> >> Those are cultures that help create specific flavor (among other
> >> things). You would use them whether using raw milk or pasteurized
> >> milk. You can absolutely make cheese without them.....
> >
> > I thought so too until I tried it.
> >
> > My first unpasteurized milk cheese was a total loss. After 5
> > hours, the
> > pH was exactly where it was when I started it.
> >
> > I then did a bit more research and learned that it is nearly
> > impossible
> > to make good cheese without external cultures. Not because of flavor
> > but because there just is not enough native flora to get things
> > going in
> > a reasonable amount of time.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:58:20 -0600
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <4404E39C.7080303 at mc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Barbara Cornelius wrote:
>
> > Like, buying sourdough
> > culture freezedried and using that instead of hoping to catch your own
> > in your own house.
>
> > Would that be the correct analogy, then?
>
> In a general way, yes but.... bread needs yeast to rise and there are
> many yeasts of various sorts floating around in the air. Catching one
> that makes bread rise is not all that difficult but the signature of
> sourdough bread is the sour flavor that comes from acidifying bacteria
> that also has to be captured.
>
> The other aspect that is quite different is that the sourdough culture
> sits around for days or weeks trolling for stuff and developing it's
> flavor so by the time you are ready to use it, you have a viable culture.
>
> With cheese you have only about 5 hours to produce enough acid to make
> cheese that will keep for years. There just is not enough bacteria to
> get that kind of fermentation going in 5 hours.
>
> Brewers deal with the problem routinely. We buy a culture with a very
> small amount of a pure strain and spend several days building this up to
> a quart or so of working beer before it is pitched into the new batch.
>
> js
>
> --
> PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:16:19 -0400
> From: "Albert Ortiz" <alhiem at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID:
> <1e5a81050602281816n628b88b8x9de77c4073c1717e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>
> This person is a biology doctor who has always made cheese with raw milk.
> you can find his info at
> http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese.html
>
> alberto
>
> On 2/28/06, Barbara Cornelius <bac at nebrwesleyan.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Linda - thanks for your reply. I'm looking forward to giving this a try!
> >
> > On Peter Fankhuser's site, he mentions the following in relation to
> > using raw milk:
> > "1: Filter the milk to remove straw, hair etc. 2: Use a fresh, active
> > starter and use a little more than usual. 3: Add 1 gram og potassium or
> > sodium nitrate per gallon of milk 4: Be extra careful about the hygiene
> > when making the cheese."
> >
> > Now, I get the milk already filtered, so I'd skip #1. #4 is obvious.
> >
> > But, what do you think of guidelines #2 and 3? Apparently, the
> > potassium/sodium nitrates are to inhibit the coliform bacteria, but is
> > it really necessary? Do you do this?
> >
> > Thanks again -
> > Barbara
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Linda Conroy <rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:26 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
> >
> > > Welcome Barbara,
> > > I make all kinds of cheese with raw milk. You can follow any recipe
> > > and simply ignore the part about pastreurization. Also when you add
> > > rennet you need to top stir so that the cream is easily
> > > incorporated. There are alot of options about raw vs pasteurized
> > > milk (if you have not already read the information on realmilk.com
> > > I would highly recomend it), I personally have chosen for 10 years
> > > to make cheese with raw milk and it is always yummy!!
> > > happy cheese making
> > > Linda>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cheese mailing list
> > Cheese at hbd.org
> > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20060228/afa828f8/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:14:36 -0600
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <44051FAC.4020603 at mc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Albert Ortiz wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This person is a biology doctor who has always made cheese with raw milk.
> > you can find his info at
> > http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese.html
>
> I don't see anywhere on his site where he suggests that a starter is not
> required with raw milk. He uses buttermilk or yogurt as starters for
> all the recipes I saw.
>
> js
>
>
> --
> PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:27:43 -0600
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <4404F88F.8060300 at mc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Doug Snyder wrote:
> > Interesting, I've had trouble getting pasteurized milk to "cheese"
> > but I've never had a problem with raw milk (usually purchased from
> > Whole Foods here in Los Angeles). I think I've only tried to make
> > cheese with raw milk once without the mesophilic culture pack from
> > New England Cheesemaking and it worked well....
>
> What sort of cheese was it? I suppose one could make some sorts of soft
> cheese and not know it was not right. But without a pH meter, it is
> really hard to know what is going on.
>
> js
>
>
> --
> PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 20:43:25 -0800
> From: Doug Snyder <dsnyder at swlaw.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Cheese] Using raw milk
> To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
> Message-ID: <AB828A91-25B7-4061-BFA0-346E6C83BF6E at swlaw.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> The only one I've made without culture was a mozzarella that sat
> overnight to "raise" culture. I haven't ever checked pH when making
> cheese. As I said, I'm not very advanced at this. I'm sure that an
> aged cheese without culture would be a disaster.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote:
>
> > Doug Snyder wrote:
> >> Interesting, I've had trouble getting pasteurized milk to "cheese"
> >> but I've never had a problem with raw milk (usually purchased from
> >> Whole Foods here in Los Angeles). I think I've only tried to make
> >> cheese with raw milk once without the mesophilic culture pack from
> >> New England Cheesemaking and it worked well....
> >
> > What sort of cheese was it? I suppose one could make some sorts of
> > soft
> > cheese and not know it was not right. But without a pH meter, it is
> > really hard to know what is going on.
> >
> > js
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
> > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://
> > schmidling.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cheese mailing list
> > Cheese at hbd.org
> > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
> End of Cheese Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
> ************************************
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